To all - Should Rolling Hand be banned?

[Rolling_Hand]

Learn to reason forward and backward on both sides of a question. We must have courage to bet on our idea, to take the calculated risk, and to act. Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social enviroment.

The purpose of all higher education is to make men aware of what was and what is; to incite them to probe into what may be. It seeks to teach them evaluate, to communicate. I am an idealist. I don't know where I'm going, but I am willing to listen from all of you.

Should Rolling Hand be banned?
The decision will be yours!

Rdgs
Rolling Hand ( Roger )

[Alpha Dog]

I am against banning anyone. In fact, the more I dislike anyone, the more I want to hear from them -- it's the only way I can figure out what it is I really dislike about myself.;)

[diego]

wouldnt you two agree?, ban'em!

[red_fists]

Hi.

I am also against banning people.

If you don't want to read somebodies Posts add him to your "Ignore List".

If there are too many People on the Board hat you disagree with find another Board that suits you better.

Nuff said.

[old jong]

"Keep mum...good luck with your fantasy; Augustine Fong's mook yan jong!!! hahaha.... The ability to accept responsibility is the measure of the man. Sorry to say, you aren't the one."...Should not be tolerated in this forum...Period!
Being respectful of others lines of wing chun whatever personnal opinions is the rule no:1 for a good exchange of ideas.There is a well known place for thrash (http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/default.asp)threads or comments.I don't want KFO to becomes like that!
The moderators posted their warnings. You do as you wish.

[stonecrusher69]

I would think at least a first warning is in order. I have not been following there posts that closely,and I new to this forum but if it was me I would like a second chance.

[raving_limerick]

I get a distinct feeling of deja vu for some reason...

[Sabu]

We are all unique in some manner or another. We must accept all. And learn from everyone as difficult as it may be to put one's ego aside. Not learn WC persay, but learn how to understand that person that causes one so much distress. Understand, and the distress will disappear. If Wing Chun has taught me anything it is that.

Knowledge is power? No. Understanding is power. And.....

[anerlich]

I can handle (even enjoy) an exchange of insults, but RH, the mods have given you a warning - heed it.

[tnwingtsun]

Dittos

[monkey man]

I know martial arts attract a certain breed of individual, but there seems to be alot of self-righteous arrogance on this board (often loosely shrouded in pseudo-intellectualism). Why don't you just stop the attention seeking RH, and try and maintain a respectful approach when entering into a discussion - that I'm sure you would hope to receive in kind.

Instead of relishing the fact that you have been given a public warning, why don't you just apologise for any offense you may have caused (whether you agree with the reprimand or not) and act like the bigger man.

[sunkuen]

Hey, they banned whippinghand!!! The Whip never made any racial slur towards anyone, never made any fun of anyones name (not that whippinghand was a saint or anything!!!). See sui-fut's profile--- nice!!!

[red5angel]

Sui-Fuw should be banned, no question about it, his remarks have been offensive, and in some cases racial in orientation.
As for RH, well, Rh, your behaviour isnt making most people think its irritating them. I would think that if you really wanted to make someone think, you would stay away from attacking them, or anything else they consider important. I have found that the best teachers are those who make us WANT to look inside ourselves, not make us defend our ways or our choices.
You may be happy with the Wing Chun you study, so are most of us. You may have the answers some people seek, so probably do some of us. The point of a forum is to get together to talk, in this case, discuss Wing chun and all subjects relating to. Instead of fanning flames we should all seek to put them out. Flame wars are childish, and belong on other forums not here.

[Sauchi]

It would be a terrible loss to this community if a voice/opinion is banned to speak.



Sauchi =)

[CLOUD ONE]

Dear RH- You must first ask yourself are you a troll.

Secondly do you contribute to the disscussion on W.C

Are you here to teach people the new perspective, some will be like boulders and hard to budge. do you care if these people get what you are trying to do for them?

Connecting with people is an art in it self and I don't think you have mastered the self.

So yes you should be banned for not being free to express, although this is what we all ultimately search for in W.C.

[Peter Aarts]

As this forum is about different opinions, I don´t have problems with different point of views. If you don´t like them, just keep off! As long as it doesn´t get insulting in a personal way.

Peter.

[Alpha Dog]

Said with a cute :D or :p ? Are those acceptable?

Hope this helps!

[yuanfen]

Those got whipping hand in trouble! Now if those standards were applied? If not, invite whipping hand back!!

[Alpha Dog]

So many grandmasters and esteemed WC scholars here do it, why couldn't Whippinghand?

[Chango]

We should not bann him. he has right to express his opinion. I do not see how it will benifit anyone if he is banned.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by monkey man
Instead of relishing the fact that you have been given a public warning, why don't you just apologise for any offense you may have caused (whether you agree with the reprimand or not) and act like the bigger man. Should we apologize for who we are? Should you? If you would like an apology from Rolling Hand, why not start with an apology on your part? No? Okay, I will then.... I apologize for being such a dog-gone good looking man. Is this my fault? I do not know, but it is my nature?
Oh, and my elephant apologizes for his immense skill in Wing Chun.

[Train]

Hi everyone!! This is the 1rst time i have posted here. I have been reading this forum for a while now and i have been enjoying everyone's opinions. The reason why i am writing now is becuase i am concerned about people getting banned here. I don't understand why certain people want RH kicked out? I read his past statements and I did'nt find anything wrong with what he said. Can someone tell me what he did to pee off certain people in here. It's going to be a d*mn shame to have one less person who can voice their opinion in here. I don't think he needs to apologize for anything.

[Redd]

Originally posted by Train
Ignorance is not an option.


Apparently it is.

[anerlich]

Oh, and my elephant apologizes for his immense skill in Wing Chun.

Well quit spouting the pseudo-spiritual bu11sh1t and enter him in the UFC. shut up those smack-talking NHB and BJJ types.


Ignorance is not an option

Read this forum a bit more, you will soon realise that is actually a very viable and popular option!

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Sabu
Should we apologize for who we are? Should you? If you would like an apology from Rolling Hand, why not start with an apology on your part? No? Okay, I will then.... I apologize for being such a dog-gone good looking man. Is this my fault? I do not know, but it is my nature?
Oh, and my elephant apologizes for his immense skill in Wing Chun.

I don't personally want an apology from Rolling Hand (I have not been on the receiving end of his tirade), or ask anyone to apologise for who they are. I am just suggesting that it would be the most courteous and humble thing to do - something I thought that martial artists were meant to strive for. Perhaps I am living with my head in the clouds though, with an unrealistic set of ideals.

I thought that this forum was intended to discuss wing chun - not to resort to verbal sparring or to puff up one's ego....

Just my opinion.








(And for the record, for what it's worth, I do not think that anyone should be banned).

[Sabu]

Originally posted by monkey man
I am just suggesting that it would be the most courteous and humble thing to do - something I thought that martial artists were meant to strive for. Humility???? What is this notion? Is each person posting on this thread exercising humility? Is anyone who has criticized Rolling Hand exercising humility?

Humility - the paper veil.

[yuanfen]

I have been on the receiving end of infantile and insulting ethnic labelling by sui fw and repetitious and dogamtic labelling(the last about manhood) from RH. I have nothing but contempt for those specific
posts brcause they are abusive and misuse freedom of speech.
But-snif sniff-I will make it through the night.

But- WH was banned for so much less and i still dont understand that action.

It seems to me that rather than depend on moderation that we can make the moderator's job easier if we act a little more in concert as list members and develop a sense of community sufficient atleast in putting sarcastic non wc trolls in their place and sytematically ignoring RH's outrageous remarks....and reviewing standards
in the light of the WH case.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Sabu
Humility???? What is this notion? Is each person posting on this thread exercising humility? Is anyone who has criticized Rolling Hand exercising humility?

Humility - the paper veil.

I do not agree with your rationale - criticism and a reasoned, polite discussion does not necessarily infringe upon a person's humility, no.

I'm not sure if you are missing my point but I only originally suggested that Rolling Hand, by means of keeping the peace, may find it wise to apologise for any offence caused (there is no need to resort to racial slurs in ANY situation) - NOT to apologise for his opinions (with regard to the original point of discussion). There are ways and means of conducting yourself in a civilised society, and a message board such as this should be no exception.

Like I said before, I do not wish to enter into a form of verbal sparring, despite your aggressive tone, so will not continue to post on this thread.

[red5angel]

Speaking of which, was RH actually banned? I wasnt aware he was up for that particular honor, but I havent seen him on here since this was posted.

[JeremyR.]

"True words are not beautiful, beautiful words are not true."

Some of the best lessons I've learned have not come from people with whom I agree. When you start to remove those with whom you disagree, how long before you remove everyone? We all disagree with each other sometimes. We all have said or written things that were interpreted in a way we didn't intend. Banning someone simple removes another point of view that might help you learn something new.

Jeremy R.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

First of all I do not believe that RH has been banned. In all fairness the reference to banning was directed more towards Sui than to he. Although some of his posts were a bit negative and seemed to leans towards insulting.

Now the other person, OTOH, deserves, IMHO, to be banned. The simple fact that there were racial slurs directed towards members of this forum would be enough in and of itself. There were other things which would add to the decision as well. The general flavor and manner of the posts being made. Again, most with negative comments and insults. Not much to edify either themselves nor others on this board.

Banning is a very serious issue and needs to be considered very carefully. Fortunately the decision does not lie in one persons hands. No, contrary to what some may believe it takes a concsensus to ban someone. Also the individual has the opportunity to respond and explain or change the activity which leads to the comtemplation of banning in the first place. Of course, some would rather whine then change or try to defend indefensible actions.

No one is banned simply because they p*** someone off or because they happen to be of a different opinion. It depends on the manner in which they choose to respond. Reply maturly and with dignity and even when we are at complete opposites your opinion can be respected and we can agree to disagree. However, when one starts hurling insults and dips even lower to using racial slurs then one no longer adds to the conversation and there is little reason to subject everyone else to this type of behavior. Besides, in many places using Racial Slurs becaomes a crime. Something to consider given that such things are being pursued more and more in our modern age. There are ample examples of people making negative statements about someone or a former company and being held liable for those comments. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing but there are exceptions to every rule.

Anyhow I just wanted to clarify my position on this matter. I feel if RH posts in a more constructive manner then there is no problem. I feel he does have knowledge to share. Sui on the other hand deserves nothing more than my contempt. If the decision is to ban him then I support it 100%.

Peace,

Dave

[Alpha Dog]

You just said Rollinghand has knowledge to share and doesn't necessarily deserve to be banned. WH obviously had knowledge to share -- could it be some people objected to that? How could that be?

Where is Empty Cup these days, anyway?

[Sihing73]

Hi Alpha Dog,

If you read my post you will see that it is the manner in which one posts which is the subject. Some of the best minds in the world are incapable of sharing that knowledge with others. How many great "fighters" become great coaches? Sometimes it is the one with less knowledge who, through their manner, is able to impart more to the student.

Regardless of how much one has to share if one is unwilling to do so in a manner which is beneficial to the majority of the members here then one has failed to impart that knowledge. As I am sure I have said before one must tailor the lesson to the student and his or her ability. While it is all well and good not to spoon feed someone, at times this is needed to allow them to get over a hump and move forward. If a teacher, or someone purporting to have knowledge shrouds the lessons in mystery or vieled and vague comments then one does an inustice to the others looking for help. While this may be a viable approach in person, in this medium it is rarely the best choice.

Also, no matter how much one has to share if one chooses to do so in a manner of using negative, slighting and at times insulting posts then one is also guilty of not sharing. This shows the level of ones true ability to impart knowledge as well as, at times, a level of the self image one has.

As to your reference to Empty Cup I do not know where he has been. I have not been keeping tabs on him. As to the matter of people objecting to WH I believe that once again it comes to the manner in which that alleged "knowledge" was being shared. The manner of posting and attitude were a factor in that decision.

I ask you how many students will be around to pass on the art of Wing Chun if their seniors subject them to constant insults and vague instruction? Of course you could argue that the few reamaining would be the "cream of the art". However, I feel much more would be lost in the long run and the art would eventually wither and die. Remember, Wing Chun has a tradition of being taught to the few not the many. If that "tradition" were still in place many of us, if not most of us, would never have the opportunity to learn this fine art. To pass on only a portion of that "knowledge" will eventually result in the diluting of the art over time. This can lead to others adding things to the art resulting in both good and bad "hybrid" versions of Wing Chun in an effort to fill the gaps left by the unwillingness to share openly. Of course, as time passes it is sometimes good to incorporate new ideas and even things from other arts. Time changes, the needs of those today are far different than those of the first founders of Wing Chun. Since common tradition teaches that Wing Chun is a distilation of several other arts I find it easy to believe that the forerunners of our art would indeed seek out and incorporate other systems, which were of benefit, to the system. The pole is a fine example of this, unless you happen to believe it was in the system all the time. If this is so then please explain the difference in stance and power generation.

I am not against new or different ideas or points of view. I am against the "sharing" of such things in a manner designed to insult or degrade others and make it seem like my way is the only way.

Bottom line if you have "knowledge" then why not be willing to share it in a manner that helps others rather than cause even more confusion? It is very easy to claim some higher level of knowledge but sometimes it is necessary to reveal it in more than just your claims. In other words can you truly state your position in a way others can understand? If not then do you yourself truly understand the supposed "knowledge"?

Peace,

Dave

[yuanfen]

Also, no matter how much one has to share if one chooses to do so in a manner of using negative, slighting and at times insulting posts then one is also guilty of not sharing.
(( I do not make a brief for banning anyone in a bulletin board like list suchas this one... though I can see deletion of offensive posts at times... cleaning up a bulletin board. The format of KFO, the anonymity, and allowing outrageous profiles is/are the real source-s of many problems. Uneven application of rules add to it. Regarding WH... the posts were terse and direct. But RH's insults and terseness continued more frequently and longer. yet one is banned and the other is not yet-per your note. WH did not mechanically pusha single agenda. RH did. Sure WH posts were terse but dialectical. Many of the long posts on this list actually say very little. Banninga person is so subjective,,, better to delete, filter, insist on real identities specially when the posts are insulting.. I know moderation isnt easy but it should strive for evenhandedness. I can make a good slippery slope argument that I should be banned. i expect effort on the part of the reader, can be obscure and esoteric and known to drive black and blue nuts!! But then I have yet to meet a perfectly sane person. BTW the technically built in censorship is hilariously uneven. I used the phrase Tom, **** or Harry. ,,a well known phrase. **** got erased even though it is a name and not neccesarily anatomical. Yet racial names etc and other things get through . There should be a small balanced advisory group to run things by before outright banning, Again the KFO format is the real problem)).

I ask you how many students will be around to pass on the art of Wing Chun if their seniors subject them to constant insults and vague instruction?
((Traditional instruction expected much from students))

However, I feel much more would be lost in the long run and the art would eventually wither and die.
((hasnt happened in some fairly terse teaching lines))
Remember, Wing Chun has a tradition of being taught to the few not the many. If that "tradition" were still in place many of us, if not most of us, would never have the opportunity to learn this fine art.
((I dont think most of us have...!!!))
The pole is a fine example of this, unless you happen to believe it was in the system all the time. If this is so then please explain the difference in stance and power generation.
((Mixing apples and oranges dave. Yes the weapons came after the hands historically and should do so now sequentially in training as well. The weapons are extensions of the hand and you do some things for enhancement of the hands and for development and adjustment to weighting. BUT-The body principles -
remain the same....no new metaphysics involved. But when people are not ready for the weapons- fantasies can emerge))))

[CLOUD ONE]

Sihing- although your approach to be fair there seems something is amiss.

With peoples different perspective of W.C isn't it more wise to allow the main forum members to judge for themselves who is worth listening to?

Is it that bad to get a reply which isn't as straight forward as abc?

There is always peoples different ways of sharing. I am sorry if not everyone gets it but like you said it is not just down to the teacher. For example on this forum are you a teacher, student or a moderator? i hope you are all these and I see that each and everyone of us are the same. Just because someone has studied W.C for ten years does that make him a teacher, or two years, does that make him a student. there is always a story to tell about a person. To really share is to connect with that person, which I find more difficult on the net, but I believe it can be done.

RH and WH approaches were different but there you see that one was big headed and wanted to win badley the other was just here playing not really bothered about winning or losing.

My final comment is I know that moderation is difficult but do you see yourself as a great moderator, maybe less is more. Or would you rather see this forum turn into ''Pleasantville''

[Sihing73]

Hi Cloud One,

It is the answering in an insulting way which raises the problem not just the vagueness. There are plenty of ways to be obtuse without the need to resort to insults and slights.

As to allowing the main forum members to judge for themselves; they kind of do this when they utilize the reporting post feature as well as directing e-mails or PM's to the administrators and/or moderators. In each case there have been numerous complaints about the type of posts being made. So in a way it is the forum members who lead to the end decision. In addition I have always tried to remain open and given everyone the chance and opportunity to contact me directly regarding any decisions I have made, action I have taken or other concerns which they may have related to this forum.

No matter what the purpose in posting when one decides to use racial slurs and comments then one has, IMHO, crossed the line. Regardless of the amount of "wisdom" this person may have to impart by choosing to use such insults they are no longer welcome nor are they acting within the rules of this forum.

We can agree that moderation is hardly easy. No matter what one does or does not do there will always be those of a different opinion. I do not see myself as a "great" moderator. I see myslef as someone who tries and is bound to make mistakes. Hopefully when such mistakes are made I will learn from them and become better and more fair. However it is a work in progress and I base a great many of my decisions on input I recieve from members here. Once again, all are welcome to contact me directly. I have even appoligized if I discovered I acted inappropriately or in haste.

I am not sure what you mean with the reference to "Pleasentville". I do know that I do not want this to turn into a clone of the VTA Forum. :(

Peace,

Dave

[Sabu]

Originally posted by Sihing73
However, I feel much more would be lost in the long run and the art would eventually wither and die. Be careful of presenting yourself as the second coming of Christ....

"Do accept Dave McKnight as your Wing Chun Lord and Saviour...?"

Presumptuous, don't you think? It is not anyone's role to protect people from themselves....

[Sihing73]

Hi Sabu,

Presumption seems to be catching, if you know what I mean ;)
I hardly think that I have presented myself as anything, let alone the second coming :( At no time have I tried to push my views on anyone else. At the same time I have expressed MY opinion, something I thought you were in favor of :confused: Some people need to be protected from themselves, in PA we have something called a "302" which is used to force them to seek help when they become a danger to themselves and others. Perhaps some members of the internet community are in need of something similiar ;) In any event since everyone makes their own decisions I doubt that I am capable of protecting anyone from themselves, nor am I qualified to do so. Therefore you can put your mind to rest;
1) I am not the second nor the first coming of anything.
2) You need not embrace my way as the one true way
3) I am not here to "protect" anyone rather simply keep certain types of behavior in check.

Hope that makes you feel better.

Peace,

Dave




Originally posted by Sihing73
However, I feel much more would be lost in the long run and the art would eventually wither and die. Be careful of presenting yourself as the second coming of Christ....

"Do accept Dave McKnight as your Wing Chun Lord and Saviour...?"

Presumptuous, don't you think? It is not anyone's role to protect people from themselves....

[CLOUD ONE]

Empty cup- can I ask do you miss W.H?
It seems to me that you are down and that W.H made your day whether you were angry, amused or confused you were more active in the replying of posts than the back seat driver.

oh well snap out of it you have got what you always wanted.

[red5angel]

Does anyone find it odd and a bit humorous that this string, which has nothing to do about WC what so ever has recieved the most attention recently? A sign of the times maybe, that people who come here are more interested in soap opera drama then learning Wing Chun?
Who cares if Whipping Hand was banned, its done. Rolling Hand is not, and it is unfortunate that he does not entertain his fans so much as WH but again, who cares.
Dave, your doing your job as best you can, there is no need to defend yourself or your decisions, like most who are quick to point out, if someone doesnt like it, let them go to another forum.
RH is not banned, although this thread should be deleted so those that wish to can get back to discussing WC.......

[Alpha Dog]

That boxing game was awesome.

[yuanfen]

seems as if everybody is trolling nowadays...it's like WH x 1000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well- you know the old saying---you have to be careful what you wish for.

[yuanfen]

funny string
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And wants it closed down.
Dunno red.
The one about a sifu being able to kill in a second and working for the CIA has its moments?
Do you think that has anything to do with wc? And it wasnt about WH, RH etc.....

[yuanfen]

C'mon whats all this sophistry empty cup... the clear majority didnt want WH banned. So how does one infer so called democracy(not that i am advocating it here) out of a minority vote.A major problem of induction isnt it?

[Alpha Dog]

This is my formal and public vote that McDave award you the Wing Chun Crybaby Award of Valour! Cheers! You are now a full member of the prestigeous Whiners' Club!