kup choy

[yutyeesam]

What CLF forms of the LKH/TMW lineage has Kup Choy? In the FYS lineage, it is one of the 10 Elements (or 10 Seeds), and often used as part of a combo (Gwa-Kup). The only form of the FYS lineage that I've been exposed to that has Kup Choy is the Lohon Kune.

Thanks,
123

[CLFNole]

This technique is seen in the original version of Ping Jahn Kuen.

Peace.

[alecM]

In the FYS lineage I am from we use kup choy in our versions the Sup Ji Kuen and Dit Jin Cheong Kuen forms.

[ClearAndHit]

Hi YutYeeSam,

It was good to see you stop by the school last month. Are you going to start training with the Ng Family again?

As for the kup choy, while I don't know enough to answer your question myself, you should ask Sifu when you get the chance. You'd be surprised how many questions he can answer, being a Sifu and all... Sihing Phil is also quite familiar with the forms in the lineage and would probably be willing to talk to you about it if you ask. Next time you stop by the school you can run it by them. Hope this helps! Take care

- ClearAndHit

[yutyeesam]

Hey Clearandhit!
It was good seeing you, as well! I'll try to make it over there more often this summer. As you can imagine, trying to knock out the doctorate while working two jobs can prove to be quite time consuming. Since I work at a computer lab, I can play around in this forum during work! (as long as I "look" productive ;))

Yeah, my question was really more for the Lee Koon Hung lineage folks. It made me curious, because Kup choy is one of their 10 elements as well, but I have yet to see it in one of their forms. CLFNole said they have it in their Ping Jahn Kune.

CLFNole-
Any ideas of why this element doesn't frequent the forms much?

Just curious,
123

[CLFNole]

Truthfully cup choy is a good technique to use in fighting. Our forms tend to have a lot of sow choys and chin si choy's. The flow of the cup choy isn't so good in a form perspective and I think that is why it is not seen much in the forms.

Peace.

[Eddie]

CLFNole,
I was told that Siu Moih Fah contains all 10 seeds thus including the cup choy, but I have had the same question as 123 before.

Please tell me if I am wrong, but right at the end of Siu Moih Fah, after the chap choy, gwa, pow choy, turn around gwa, sow choy - I know I have been told it to be sow choy (before breaking open), but I also once was told it to be a cup choy. To me, it makes no real difference, but I don't think I clearly understand the difference between cup and sow (in this instance). I know trying to describe techniques sequences over the net is difficult, so i hope you understand which move i am refereing to.


Is it then not true that SMF contains all 10 seeds?

[CLFNole]

Eddie;

You could be right a cup choy would fit well in that part of the form. My guess is that Lee Koon Hung must have favored sow choy over cup choy. Personally I am the same I feel that sow choy is a bit more powerful and easy to use. Cup choy is very good however I prefer sow choy.

Peace.

[RAIN]

clfnole , can you tell if the ten seeds are all in siu muy fah kuen ?
can you name the ten seeds found in the lle koon hung branch ?
they are the same found in the phil ng 's webpage or have some variations ? i read that differents branches can have differents 10 seeds .

i think cup choy is more direct and practical that sow choy and more easy to make in a strreet fight . but yes , sow choy is stronger .

[Fu-Pow]

Eddie-

Interesting that you bring up the "Gwa Cheui Pow Cheui, Gwa Cheui Sao Cheui" combo at the end of Siu Mui Fa. I had just been thinking about that. I had been teaching it as Kup Cheui but then the name of the combo finally sunk in. So I guess technically LKH intended it to be a Sao Cheui.

To everyone-

The distinction I would make would be that Sao Cheui is more of a
"power" technique designed to knock your opponent out. You are hitting with the top of the fist and the fore arm. Most likely to the neck with the forearm or the temple fist.

Kup Cheui is more of a "surface" technique. It bares a resemblance to the "Cat's Paw" technique of Hung Gar. The intention is that you hit with the second knuckle on the index and middle finger. This inflicts a lot of pain to the target but probably won't cause a knock out. Kup Cheui can be directed to the nose or side of the face or any soft area. Wouldn't recommend using it on anything particularily hard like the back and sides of the head.

[diego]

soa choy, thats like a inverted backfist right? or thats what its called in my kajukenbo, you can hit with the backfist, or top of wrist or topside of forearm!.

&

kup chuie= is that hit like a stamping action like a overhead strike?, ifso we use that in hopgar, you can also use, the **** you finger, extended like a pheonixeyefist, instead of the cats paw, or you can use, the index and middle knuckles, to rake your target!.
Do i have these right for CLF, what i explianed was in my style, i have no direct links to CLF.

Would you be so kind to list CLF's Punching techniques, with thier chinese name, and english equivalents, with a simple description.
Would be Much Gratefull!.
:cool:

[yutyeesam]

hey diego,
better yet, check out http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/ten_elements.htm

for the Ng Family's 10 elements. I think the one element that is different in the Lee Koon Hung lineage is that they have Chum Kiu listed, while Ng Family has Kum Sao. Is that right CLFNole/Fu-Pow?

123

[diego]

thanx, if you check out my kajukenbo.hopgar thread, on the main forum like 3-5 pages back"i may have posted it on this board two?" thier is a good rep of hopgars 12 longhands and 12 shorthands, you may find it interesting for comparison, i know i do:D
Agian thanx

[diego]

is what hopgar in english calls a wipefist, you guys dont seem to have overhead strikes?, its like a kup but you swing like a club attack, or smashing a bottle, but the palm faces down!, i'l post those links in a minute.

[diego]

This is from David Chin & Micheal Staples HopGar Book, the style i do seems to be a bit differant, but this is a good rep, what i'm getting at:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12 LONGFISTS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/1straight_punch.html
-----------------------------]------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/2upswingingpunch_pt1.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/upswingingpunch2.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/3backhandpunch.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/4overheadpunch.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/5stretchpunch.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/6whippunch.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/7wipepunch.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/8choppunch.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/9hookpunch.html
---------------------------------]-----------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/10crossoverpunch.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/11shovel12lionpunches.html

[CLFNole]

Rain:

Lee Koon Hung never specifically said "these are the 10 seeds of CLF". He taught us all of the techniques and names but never really specifically talked about the 10 seeds. This could have been due to the language problem.

As far as cup choy and sow choy go. My opinion is that sow choy is more practical than cup choy. The first reason being that cup choy comes from high to low and if you are a prepared fighter is easy to counter. Additionally with the elbow facing downward it can hyperextend if not careful.

With the sow choy it comes at a 45 degree angle and sometimes an oppenent might not be sure what type of block to use. That split second of indecision results in landing your sow choy. If someone is prepared and puts up an arm block since the elbow is turned outward when the block is applied you let the elbow bend and come over the block and still hit your opponent.

The cup choy as stated earlier by Fu Pow can be used to hit soft tissue areas of the face (nose, eyes, etc.). It is also useful if you get your opponent bent over from say a punch or kick to the stomach. Bring the cup choy down on the back of someone's neck can be quite powerful.

These subtle things are found only through the teachings of a real sifu and are hard to learn from books or videos. I admire your work ethic in trying to learn, so keep at it.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

If I was going to list the "10 seeds" of Lee Koon Hung's CLF they would be the following (in this order Yale Cantonese-Literal Translation-Brief Description.)

1) Gwa Cheui-Hanging Hammer-Circular back fist, goes up then down.

2) Sao Cheui- Sweep Hammer-
Long circular round house punch, goes up then down at 45 degree angle.

3) Kaap Cheui- ? Hammer-
A long range stamping fist with the 2nd knuckle of the index and middle finger.

4) Cham Kiu- Sink Bridge-
Short downward block or hook, can be done with both hands also.

5) Fu Jao- Tiger Claw- Direct palm strike with the heel of the hand.

6) Chaap Cheui- Slice Hammer-Leopard strike with the palm perpendicular to the ground. Usually targets the stomach or ribs.

7) Cheong Ahn Cheui - Steal the Eyes- Twisting leopard strike with palm parallel with the ground.

8) Pow Jeung- Throw Palm- Upward thrusting palm strike.

9) Faan Jong- ?- Large circular uppercut.

10) Biu Jong- Thrust Punch- 45 degree circular upward strike with the palm of the fist facing up. Originates from the hip.

11) Chun-La- Block/Grab- Out ward twisting block using the forearm.

12) Poon Kiu- Coiling Bridge- Circling block used to block, trap and throw the opponent off balance.

OK...so that's actually 12. So should be "12 seeds of CLF" I guess.

You'll see most of the these moves in every form. It's hard to describe them, it would be much easier to show.

Peace.

[CLFNole]

Fu Pow

You forgot Cum Jeurng & Chin Si Choy/Pek Choy. We have a lot of them in each form as well.

Peace.

[Eddie]

CLFNonel, Fu Pow and others.
I totally aggree on the cup vs sow. My personal faveroute is also sow choy, I think cup choy can bring forth allot of injury if your fists aren't properly conditioned. Call me a sissy, but hitting someone with the one finger knuckle and connecting his forhead could be a good technique, but I guess it could be painfull for both of you.

Fu Pow, that exact same combonation is found in the older version of the modern wushu form nan chuan. I was thinking that it should proably come from the hung side, so maybe you might know? I really like that combonation, it workd perfecly even if someone attempts to grab you from behind. I have a friend who has this habbit of sneeking up to me, and then push my shoulder (to make me thing someone is attacking me). Few times I almost wacked him with the gwa sow combo :)

[Fu-Pow]

Eddie-

It think Gwa Pow is a common technique in many shaolin-derived styles including CLF and Hung Ga. Its a great technique with all kinds of nasty applications. It is more commonly referred to as the "water casting punch," because at the end of the movement it looks like you are swinging two buckets of water.

CLF Nole--

Would have included Cum Jeung and Chin Ji but 14 sounds even worse than 12......:p

Here's a question. When Sifu Mak calls the Hammer Fist it sounds like Pol Chui. Is this just a pronunciation thing? We have another move called Seung Pak (sounds like Pek). What does Pak mean?
What does Pek mean?

Thanks in advance.

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

The technique you are refering to I call Pau Choy/Pol Choy is a hammer fist that comes from high to low in a straight line. In plum flower after pi sow tek girk you do pau choy in sei ping ma.

Sheung Pak is the double downward palm block that is generally followed by Shueng Biu (Double Snake Strike). I belive pak means to hit down.

Pek as in pek choy means ax fist. Hence the chopping like motion of the technique.

Peace.

[Eddie]

sorry double post

[Eddie]

CLFNole and fu pow,
ClFnole you mention powchoy, I was thinking pow choy would be an upward low to high punch (like the movement just before the gwa sow in plumflower - gwa choy pow choy)? What would you call that movement? Its not like fan jong, its more long arm (the opposite of cup choy). Although it has allot of power, I would typically use that strike only as a move to try open my oponent up for further attack.

I hope you guys can help me with something else related to this,

in tournaments like this taji legacy, are you allowed to use techniques such as pek choy and sow etc in fights (the continious light sparring)? CLFNole, I want to pick yopur brains for some tips on tournament rules for forms etc, do you mind if I send a PM to you?

[yutyeesam]

in your guys' sil mui fah where you have that gwa choy-pow choy combo towards the end - is there another name for that pow choy? SOmething like level fist or something?

[CLFNole]

Pow Choy is the low to high strike at the end of Plum Flower. Not to be confused with Pau or Pol Choy which is the hammer that travels from high to low.

Eddie: No problem send me as many messages as you like. I will always try to help out a fellow kung fu family member.

Fahn Jong Choy and Pow Choy can both be used as names for an uppercut. I think it has to do with the path of the arm versus the positioning of the hand.

Peace.

[anton]

I think asking a CLF player whether teh cupchoy or sow choy is more effective, is like asking a mechanic whether a screwdriver or a spanner is more effective.

[yutyeesam]

true. it is completely dependent on the situation. however, i was curious as to why fong yuk shu's forms and and doc fai wong's forms have the kup choy, but lee kee koon hung's doesn't. through this discussion, it seems that lkh folks have maybe an extra emphasis on the sao... but maybe not, because maybe kup choy is used more heavily in their combat drills? one pad drill that we do pretty often is the gwa kup combo.

[RAIN]

yes , that is true . the sow choys are in all lkh forms , like a trade mark of the linaje . and that is great .
about the gwa - kup combo , in the lee koon hung forms you can find the gwa choy - cam jerng combo a lot , follow for a chin si choy - biu jong .

but speaking about sow choy , the greatest combination i'd see is in tuet jin kuen , when you make :

kow ma gwa choy - sei ping ma sow choy - buy ma gwa choy and turn to kow ma chun la . this sequence is great , you can feel like a tornado yourself .

[yutyeesam]

i know what part you're talking about. very unusual sequence. i wonder if any of the other forms in their lineage has that particular sequence?