Like what you do? (Possible "spamming" going on here.....

[red5angel]

or are you doing what you can find? Seriously, not everyone is capable of finding the exactact art they want to study, or the lineage.

Reading some of the latest "spamming" post it is obvious that some people are very happy with thier Wing Chun, RH appears to really like his TWC, as well as Phil Redmond. Joakkim, myself and Chris99 obviously appreciate our learning under Carl Dechiara II. Everytime someone makes a post like this though it is considered spamming. Could it be that maybe we have faith in what we do and believe that it could benefit others?
Of the wing chun that I have seen, alot of it has been unimpressive, I would venture to say almost all of it has been weak or watered down.
If I offered you a challenge would you take it up, even if I were willing to fly out or bus out to you? its mostly a rhetorical question, you can say all you want on the internet, it doesnt mean anything. But you probably know in your heart. If you answer no, why is that?
Do you believe that your wing chun is good? how about the wing chun you are learning? how do you know?
For me, I know mine works, I practice it everyday. Thats not enough for me though. I saw Carl Dechiara use it extremely effectively against someone I considered good. Thats not enough for me though. Now Carl is encourageing me to train to fight in tournemants, just sent some of his top students out to fight at a local tourney, and they apparently made a good showing of themselves. Thats getting closer, he wants me to learn so other people can 'see' it and 'feel' it. I like that, the honesty and sincerety in that impresses me. I believe he has something to offer that does work, and will be shown to work.
how about you guys? What do you think about what you practice? Would you touch hands with someone or spar someone with no trepidation whatsoever that your skills will fail you?
The reason I ask is because wing chun is getting to be like Karate and TKD, alot of people teaching "WC" but it isnt really wing chun and it really doesnt work.
Am I prideful or ****y for saying this stuff? I don't know, I suppose you could consider me as such. I know where my skill is now, not nearly where it should be yet, but I am confident in a year Carl will have me fighting locally and I will be competing well. Because of all these factors I want to share what I have seen, when I am ready I will, wil you?

[reneritchie]

The trouble is, opinions on what the "true stuff" is, varies, sometimes by the individual. Some people do fly or bus out and see what else is out there. Sometimes they're reassured, sometimes they're not. When they're not, sometimes they decide to change and learn, sometimes they rationalize (it's not *real* WCK, they added Taiji or Hung Ga, or my teacher really knows even more greater stuff but is hiding it from me...), and sometimes they're just wrong and it ain't better.

Sometimes you're a big fish in a little pond, sometimes a little fish in a big bond. Sometimes the best guy is a jerk and you'd rather learn from a decent guy who's also a decent guy. Sometimes the greatest teachers have crappy students and sometimes mediocre teachers have students who just "gets it" and becomes phenomenal. Some great applicants can't teach and some great teachers can't apply.

Sometimes you think you've seen the best and then, years later, see something a hundred times better. Were those previous years wasted?

I've been lucky enough to meet a variety of people I'd consider good (some very different in method from each other), but there's really very little magic out there. None of them could levitate in their Siu Nim Tao. And even if they could, they probably wouldn't teach it publically. 8) I've also met some people who weren't so impressive. They're students, however, thought they walked on just as much water.

I'm still not sure why people chase "the best" as though its a sitting target. Rick Spain, Emin Boztepe, Gary Lam, Ken Chung, and some people most folks haven't heard of can all kick most people's @$$ anyway, and can help students along the same path.

Just like people have different tastes in clothes, in cars, in movies, etc., they'll have different tastes in MA, though, and luckily enough, we now live in a time and place where we have some options.

Bottom line for me: I enjoy what I do, and I hope others enjoy what they do.

BTW- r5a, what will you be competing in? MMA/NHB?

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Hey Rene - Probably local tourneys. I dont want to go big time, but one of the reasons I started martial arts was to fight in tournemants. I know call it base and brutish :) but I cant help it, its what I want to do. I do want to do mixed martial arts tourneys. wing chun has recently a bad name in competitions and I am hoping to atleast locally give it a good one!

As for all your other points, you are correct sir, what I study may not be what others are into or define as good wing chun. True was probably a bad word, as I meant true in that it actually works and not lineage wise or something like that. I think this is the thing, other then Yuanfen, I have not come across very good wing chun, now this could all be just bad luck, but I have a feeling that it is becoming watered down, somehow alot of people are gettin out there to teach who shouldnt be. I know this is happening here in the twin cities Almost all of the people who teach in the area dont have any sort of certification, background, or anything else that allows them to teach other then the basics. Most havent finished the system at the very least! we have alos had a rash of people who are mixing wing chun with other arts and claiming to teach Wing Chun.
Is anyone else experiencing this at all?

Anyway, Rene, your point is taken, it is always subjective, thats why the 'warning label' on the post!

[yenhoi]

Personally I think that if you want to learn how to fight other people, then find a teacher that teaches people how to fight other people and learn, put in lots of effort, and train - then fight if thats your deal, or be prepared to fight if that is your deal.

The thing that matters is that you have 'faith' in your teachers skill to not necessarily fight other people, but to teach you how to fight other people, and to have 'faith' that your skill is good enough to allow you to fight other people, or defend yourself should the occasion dictate.

I dont care if WC gets watered down, or Muy Thai, or any art, or any lineage of any art. Im personally not out there to put on a show for WC, for myself, or for my sifu. If my sifu was to ask me to show other people my skill, that is entirely different, or if suddenly I had the urge to show off, that is entirely different, but all the same, I dont really care about the quality of other (possibly competitors or opponents) peoples training, in fact I almost would prefer that everyone else out there was recieving lesser quality training then I am, regardless of thier art or lineage.

This opinion is specially true for the untrained or uninitiated - I dont care if you know I practice WC, or Wild Monkey fu or whatever, or if you know its good, or Im good, or my teacher is good. It doesnt matter to me if you think I practice good Karate, but in actuality I practice sloppy KajenBlowjobKenpo or whatever the 'name' of my style is.

I dont know what your particular obsession with "Wing Chun the art" is red5, I think its noble, but at the same time futile. What matters is _your art_ not WC.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, probably a good way of looking at it and explaining it. My art just happens to be Wing Chun, Leung Sheung Lineage. Why? I feel it works, and works very well.
As for why I would want others to share it? I understand where you are coming from, and in some ways that could be a good way to look at it, except that I see alo tof people getting fleeced by others who say they are teaching them something.
You dont get into Wing Chun for Health, except to keep you healthy after a confrontation. It is an aggressive art, which means if you have a teacher who is supposed ot be teaching you self defense or how to fight through wing chun, and what you are getting is no good, you could get into some serious trouble.

[gnugear]

Wing Chun is the first MA that I've never had to question.

It is exactly what I want to do, and I'm fortunate that I found a lineage that I'm happy with. I have complete faith and trust in the instruction I'm getting, and have never felt the need or desire to look for something more.

[CLOUD ONE]

r5a what would happen if in the local tourney you got whipped by the students of the twin cities that has their w.c watered down would that make your w.c more watered down?

Would you still have faith in your system.
If you only judge if W.C is good W.C by how many times you win in tourneys then what type of w.c has it become?

How about if you went into the NHb tourneys where you compete non w.c and you get beaten does that mean W.C is not good period.

All that it says to me is that you have not trained hard enough!!!!
The art is not at fault!!!!

[red_fists]

While I don't study WC, I still have to agree with Cloud One.

In all the arts that I studied it always was a case:

"If you loose the other guy wasn't better, you were not good enough."

I was taught that MA is more about the self rather than about beating others winning tourneys, collecting trophies.

[Alpha Dog]

there is no trophy, no opponent, and, alas, no spoon ;)

haha RH

[Miles Teg]

Red Fists
Does your school have a website. Otherwise could you give me the address. I'm going to Japan and the Wing Chun schools that I have seen there are not really my thing.

Red5angel: Good luck for the tournaments

[red_fists]

Hi Miles.

Sorry, no website.

Look at my sig. for the Dojo address.
it is only 1 of a many kwoons that my style has in Kanto & Japan

My style might not be what you are after either.

pm, me for more info.

[AdrianUK]

I think its a very good issue here, but I confess to being a little confused with the definitions.

What makes something watered down ? I do WT under the NWTO, and I like it, I have never trained any other Wing Chun but I like what I am doing and find my instructor very capable of not only providing answers but showing application. I always thought Wing Chun (WT/VT,etc) was very much a personal thing when you went beyond the basics. I expect to be taught the principles and concepts then find my way to apply them according to my ability, size etc.

I thought the thing that bound the styles of Wing Chun was core principles and if individuals cannot apply their Wing Chun then I dont feel it makes their Wing Chun weaker, maybe its there application at fault.

Saying all this would I accept a challenge ? No, but not because I doubt my teaching, I am not at the level to show WT to its full level and I know that, but I have crossed hands with Masters of WT (5th Technician and above) all the way up to Kernspecht himself, and they impressed me for sure. Would I be impressed crossing hands with Rene Ritchie, Ron Heimburger, Ip Chin or Robert Chu(?), yes I expect I would no doubt they can really apply what they do. So back to challenges, would I fight ? no, would I meet to train and exchange ideas, sure !

Peace

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by red5angel
You dont get into Wing Chun for Health, except to keep you healthy after a confrontation.

Why not? I'm certainly in the best shape of my life right
now, partially, I'm sure, because of the Wing Chun training.


It is an aggressive art, which means if you have a teacher who is supposed ot be teaching you self defense or how to fight through wing chun, and what you are getting is no good, you could get into some serious trouble.

Just because it's an aggressive art does not mean that you
only should be taking it if you're interested in self defense
or fighting. There are a lot of good reasons for taking a martial
art. Health, fighting ability, or maybe to just learn to be good
at some set of physical skills. Regardless of the reason for
learning Wing Chun (or any martial art), however, if you have
learned the system properly (and providing that it was taught
well), you will be a good fighter.

This brings me to the "watered down" topic. Martial arts are like
language. They change gradually over time and the users don't
usually notice until they take a historical perspective. These
changes are very subtle and usually stick to the principles (e.g.
the "As long as it follows the Wing Chun principles" guideline
as to whether or not something is Wing Chun). Occasionally,
people feel as if the martial art does not "communicate" to
certain people properly and these people will add portions of
another martial art to create a bit of a pidgin martial art.
Sometimes, this catches on and becomes a creole (JKD?), other
times not. This depends on many factors including whether the
pidgin martial art was effective or not.

This is where the analogy sort of breaks down. In language,
people create a pidgin because their language won't do the job
fully. In martial arts, the original art can usually do the job fully,
except that the people are well versed enough in the "lexicon"
to fully grasp all the nuances of that martial art. Sometimes the
pidgin can form because a person has taken more than one
martial art and the styles bleed together.

But, to follow the language analogy even more, even within "true"
(whatever that is) Wing Chun, there has been enough drift and
changes (some deliberate, some not) that different dialects seem
to be appearing. Some may have less drift from the "original"
Wing Chun (which didn't appear out of a void, it in itself came
from some other fighting style somewhere), but all have drifted
from what they once were.

Most people learn a language (at least their first language)
because that's what's being spoken around them. It may not
be all that close to the original (and can create rude comments
from those who speak a different dialect). People can go and
learn other dialects and even the same dialect with different
accents. Some will feel social pressure to do so. Others feel they
can't communicate effectively unless they do so. I think that if
you're happy with the dialect you have, there's no reason to
change it. It'll only be watered down if you can't communicate
effectively with people who should be speaking the same dialect.
Some people learn better grammar than others. Learn the best
grammar you can within your own dialect (and maybe pick up
some other dialects for fun).

[red5angel]

Hey guys, thanks for the respectful replies! I didnt want people to think I was trolling!

Anyway, here i my definition of watered down, since that seems to be what people are focusing on. In my are atleast, and in a few others I have been to, the local wing chun schools are being taught by people who probably shouldnt be. In my opinion, who should be? Well someone who has finished the system, and is fairly competent in it are the two biggest things that come to mind. The problem around here is about ego, too many wing chun instructors are have left thier schools to teach because they want to be in control. Most of the others are people who learned a few things from Wing chun and have added them to thier mixed training, but yet claim to be teaching wing chun.

Marshdrifter - your language analogy is very good. I too believe that all arts grow and change with time, it is the way of things. that is why I corrected my "true" statement. I also believe that wing chun will change in the future, and that it is necessary for it to change and adapt or be addapted. However I do believe that you need a strong basis in the art before you can claim to have made substantial changes. Its like learning English as a second language, not speaking it very good, but deciding to alter it to your liking and then teach it to others. You are probably trying to change it to compensate for something you are missing, not what the language is missing. By changing it so you "speak" it proficiently does not mean you speak english proficiently.

Cloud One - I would agree with you on some points. In general I woudl say that tournemants are not the only place to find out if your skill is good. But, to know if your martial ability is good, it needs to be tested in a martial environment. Sparring at your kwoon is good, at a tourney is better, on the street is optimal. Why? Because they are MARTIAL arts. If you are doing it for health do Tae Bo, if you are doing it for spirituality or to increase some self knowledge, do yoga, meditation, or even Tai Chi, there are other arts and practices better designed for those things. I feel Wing Chun is for fighting. that doesnt mean I go out onto the street looking for fights, but that is why I wish to fight in tourneys.
I would agree with you and Red_Fist on the idea that the fault may be your own. If I go to a tourney and loose, then it is a short coming on my part, most of the time. I would never take away from my opponent the idea that he was not good, or better then I. I know a guy who is natural at soemthing, he is better then anyone I know, and even with years of intense practice I may never be able to reach the level he is, or can be. But in general it is probably my lack of training, or discipline or any other thing you can think of I might be lacking to make me lose.
As for winning at the local tournemants, I have the faith in what I am learning to know I will have a higher level of skill then others who train at different schools. This doesnt guarentee me a win eveytime, but I am confident it will allow me to win most of the time. That confidence in my art is exactly what I am talking about. What Carl Dechiara and Kenneth Chung have offered me, I am fully confident is much better for fighting then the other schools in my area.

[wingchunner]

ReneRitchie: The trouble is, opinions on what the "true stuff" is, varies, sometimes by the individual. Some people do fly or bus out and see what else is out there. Sometimes they're reassured, sometimes they're not. When they're not, sometimes they decide to change and learn, sometimes they rationalize (it's not *real* WCK, they added Taiji or Hung Ga, or my teacher really knows even more greater stuff but is hiding it from me...), and sometimes they're just wrong and it ain't better.

Rene, these are empty words. The truth is "can my instructor easily kill me with one hit, or not". OR, can or could his instructor do that (The reason that I say that is because some students of highly skilled people haven't quite got it all yet. BUT, they are on the path to be at that level AND regularly work with their instructor). If not, then why waste the time?

ReneRitchie said: Sometimes the greatest teachers have crappy students and sometimes mediocre teachers have students who just "gets it" and becomes phenomenal. Some great applicants can't teach and some great teachers can't apply.

I couldn't disagree more. Good teachers can have 'crappy' students. BUT, they a.) are no longer associated with their teacher, b.) have an ego problem, c.) don't have the time in, d.) aren't very intelligent, or e.) don't have a good relationship with their instructor. All of these can be found out within a short amount of interview time. Mediocre Wing Chun stylist + instructor cannot produce good students without the student doing some additional study away from the instructor. You can't get water from a dry sponge no matter how hard you squeeze. Someone can't just 'get it'. No way.

ReneRitchie said: Sometimes you think you've seen the best and then, years later, see something a hundred times better. Were those previous years wasted?

My instructor has seen it all. He's travelled around the world. Therefore, I don't have to. I know I will not see anything better than our lineage. I won't have wasted years.

ReneRitchie said: Just like people have different tastes in clothes, in cars, in movies, etc., they'll have different tastes in MA, though, and luckily enough, we now live in a time and place where we have some options.

Yes, but when you go to a comedy movie, you're expecting a comedy and not a horror movie. When go to a chinese restaurant, you're expecting good chinese food and not meatloaf mashed potatoes and corn. Not only that, I want it to be good quality. In this culture, yes, we have a lot of diversity. But, we have to be intelligent enough to sort through the 'crap' and what is truth or not, and what is crap, or not. Most people (especially Americans) will take something at face value and read the book by its cover. And, if it's in print, on the news, or some high profile name says it, it must be true (or more true). My point is it doesn't have to be difficult to sort through the 'crap' if it has already been done.

To Yenhoi: What a selfish attitude. I care about what I do, and when I say that I do Wing Chun Kung Fu, I want certain things to come to mind, excellence and Wing Chun concepts. (Wing Chun does not equal karate!) I feel the world will be a better place if more people know Wing Chun, good Wing Chun.

To Cloud One and both 'Red': I've lost in tournaments. But, walking away, I knew my root was stronger and that I had more skill. I just didn't make that clear to the judges. (I am going to make sure it is crystal clear next time. I will be able to control my opponent at will. It is possible, and I'm working towards that ability.) It does take a little time to get used to competing in a tournament.

AdrianUK said: What makes something watered down ? I do WT under the NWTO, and I like it, I have never trained any other Wing Chun but I like what I am doing and find my instructor very capable of not only providing answers but showing application. I always thought Wing Chun (WT/VT,etc) was very much a personal thing when you went beyond the basics. I expect to be taught the principles and concepts then find my way to apply them according to my ability, size etc.

I would say watered down means to take away some of the potency. The beginning stuff is very painful. You have to be able 'eat bitter'. I think many instructors themselves can't do this, so how could they make their students? Yes, Wing Chun is a personal MA, but that doesn't mean everyone whould do their own thing and then call it Wing Chun. The precepts of Wing Chun are uniform and understanding/following them should not be left to ones own interpretation. You should seek verification.

I am very passionate about Wing Chun. I didn't want to be politically correct in these things that I addressed. I don't think all martial arts are the same, I'm tired of hearing that. They're not. I want to help people find the true path of excellence in martial arts. I stated what I said because I wanted to be genuine and sincere.

Marty

[reneritchie]

Is a lineage watered down, or is it an individual? How long do people study before teaching, how long do they reflect between the time with their teacher and the time they take their first student? How deeply do they understand the art? Some generations have 3 years between them. Some 30. At what level is it watered down?

There are people who don't seem to even remember the names of the sets or don't know the weapons and yet they can apply the boxing art like the devil. And there are people who probe the depths of TCM and philosophy and can make you suffer with little apparent effort or movement. And there are some who seem to know every little detail of WCK yet can't (never used it in real life much) or won't (for religious reasons) apply it. What is watered down?

And old writings on WCK mention health as an aspect (some branches even believe every motion has to be in accordance to TCM theory). Typically, in times of war, the art was for the defence of self, while in times of peace, it was for the nuturing of self (no TV back then ;) ). So if you don't get healthy, are you watered down?

And does everyone even want to take their WCK to that depth? Plenty of people enjoy basketball but can't be in the NBA. Like any continuum, there will be some on each end of the scale and many in between. But that leads to the question of which end you strive for, and should you always strive for more so you don't end up with less and less?

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Marty, well spoken. Were you in the tourney this weekend? Would you mind emailing me off list and giving me some details?

RR - Just so I am understood, when I am talking about watered down, I do not mean lineage. I dont know enough about most lineages to make that judgement. Locally here it is about instructors and schools, not the lineages they supposedly teach.

[wingchunner]

red5angel:

No, I wasn't. My wife is due with out 1st on Sunday. We're getting our house ready (remodeling kitchen & nursery).

I'll see if I can't find the results.

Marty

[red5angel]

Thanks Marty! Congrats on your first spawn!

I got some of the results from Carl but no real details!

[yuanfen]

True-bragging about one's lineage is not spamming. Too bad
you guys didnt learn from Leung Jan the doctor from Fatshan
as i did. One early morning he took me aside and said that he would show me a chum kiu that was the real one and then he said
"Yuanfen-you are yet going to be a grandmaster"!
I asked him "Whats a grandmaster?". he never answered.Then he went away and i cried out "Come back Shane" and I never saw him again. Yawn zzzzzzzz

[red5angel]

The other thing I should point out is I am not necessarily bragging about my lineage. I am still learning about the lineage itself. I am saying that I can appreciate what I am being taught by Carl Dechiara, who was taught by Kenneth Chung, who was taught by Leung Sheung. the lineage may just be happenstance!

[yuanfen]

remeber: My comments are not directed at you. Just funning with the thread.

[red5angel]

Yup ;) I gotcha Yuanfen, just made me think I should clarify that as well!