Shen Wu Tournament Clips

[Phantom Menace]

Hey I just visited the ShenWu site. Go to the Virtual Academy section to view some clips of their most recent tournament.

[Xebsball]

Very nice.

So can you tell us who won and stuff?

That Scott vs Daniel, the dude in black clothes does a great punch sequence.

[Phantom Menace]

All of Tim Cartmell's students won their fights against students from other schools. Shen Wu rocks!!!

[Xebsball]

All right!!!


:D :D

[brassmonkey]

Cool clips, gotta give props to the guy in white on the 2nd fight who does the spinning yield to the thai kick that was pretty sweet.

[Shin]

you certainly must be joking. The point of bagua is to get behind your opponent, not get him behind you. That guy would have gotten murdered if his opponent was even slightly on top of things.

All in all, I was very disappointed. It looked to me like they just took random guys of the street, slapped same pads on them on let them have.

Lets take fight 5 as an example. The guy in the sleeveless grey top didnt even have his hands up for the last half of the fight, and yet his opponent barely took advantage. The guy in the grey kept making half assed feints with his forward leg, by lifting it slower than he was walking. Finally at the end, he makes some attempt at a takedown, with no preemptive feint and miraculously gets in.

Sad.

[brassmonkey]

"you certainly must be joking. The point of bagua is to get behind your opponent, not get him behind you. That guy would have gotten murdered if his opponent was even slightly on top of things."

Ok I don't know anything about baguazhang but can bagua practioneers really walk circles around theyre opponents and get theyre back so easily? I find this hard to believe. Who says the guy in white was a bagua man, who cares, I liked that 1 portion of the fights the best with the yield to the thai kick. Sure he spun around giving his back but the opponent gave such a commitment to this kick and the distance afforded made it safe to spinning yield, he was alil off balance when he came around but he was in position, recovered and ready to go had the opponent rushed him.

"All in all, I was very disappointed. It looked to me like they just took random guys of the street, slapped same pads on them on let them have."

I think you should watch the clips again. Maybe this isnt the way you or I fight but its neat to see what other people are doing, personally I thought there were some good things going on in some of the segments.

"Lets take fight 5 as an example. The guy in the sleeveless grey top didnt even have his hands up for the last half of the fight, and yet his opponent barely took advantage. The guy in the grey kept making half assed feints with his forward leg, by lifting it slower than he was walking. Finally at the end, he makes some attempt at a takedown, with no preemptive feint and miraculously gets in."

Perfect example. The guy in black had some real good shots in retreating maybe you didnt notice and he was able to get these shots by yielding first and having his opponent stretched out and open and he actually did do 1 premptive attack and hit the guy in the head when the grey shirted guy had his hands down. Is the black shirted guy a Tai Chi man or what? Whatever he's doing I thought it was pretty good.

"Sad."

That's not too respectful now from your comments, there were some things I would liked to have seen but these guys arent masters and every school does things alil differently everyone wants to see what theyre school emphasizes maybe you know more then me but I thought I saw some skilled attributes in some of the fighters, its easy to say I would have done this and this but when your getting hit its not always so easy to keep your cool. Help me out and rebutt some of my comments so I can see what you see.

[Daniel Madar]

Um, not to jump in on this, but the idea that bagua people actually circle around their opponents to get behind them is one of the biggest fallacies about the art.

You walk the circle in practice to generate power, and rooted movement. The stepping is retained in combat, but you don't just walk around in circles during a fight.

[RAF]

I am glad that Danile said it.

Walking in a circle is not all you do in Yin Fu/Gong Bao Tian bagua. The applications of the so-called linear lohan forms have a distinctive bagua flavor yet few circle around the person.

Bagua isn't the only thing taught by Tim Cartmell. Look at the other clips.:eek:

[NafAnal]

"All in all, I was very disappointed. It looked to me like they just took random guys of the street, slapped same pads on them on let them have."

welcome to the wonderful world of real fighting....

I remember a few clips of kohechi tohei working against a sceptical journalist. Granted, he handled him easily but it was a far cry form the perfect beutiful aikido throws we saw him demonstrate earlier.

Who do you do hsing yi under shin?

[Phantom Menace]

Let me make this clear for you Shin. Fight #5 was round 2. Both guys were a little tired. Did you see the guy in black get hit once? Did you see how he slipped the kicks and strikes. When the guy in grey shot in the guy in black let him in as a set up to a nice reaping throw that the guy in black likes to do. They just ran out of room and had to be reset in the middle of the mat. The guy in black had a sprained toe, ankle injuries, and bad ribs. The guy in black didn't want to look like a brawler. He was worried that the guy in grey might get one lucky punch on his ribs and the fight would've been over. At this point of the fight the guy in black had already racked up a bunch of points from an earlier fight sequence on the ground.

He actually wanted to it to be like the techniques he practiced. If you know anything about Ba Gua and Xing Yi you should be able to point out certain combinations. The guy in black likes to yield and counter attack because he is usually sparring with guys bigger or stronger or better than him so most of his techniques come from counter attacks while moving back or moving to the side. If the guy in black went forward it would've certainly ended up with more clinching and that's not the game he wanted to play. Earier in the fight the guy in grey was throwing a number of knee strikes from the clinch. The guy in black countered with Beng Chuan. After that fight sequence the guy in black thought it would be unwise to allow the guy in grey to clinch with a head control. The guy in black was trying to protect his ribs. A knee to the rib would end the fight for the guy in black.

[Shooter]

There were some good things being done in those "fights."

The clips show that those who participated have no ground upon which to stand in passing judgement or making critical comments on the fighting skill of any other IMA player though.

Props to everyone for stepping up. :cool:

[Phantom Menace]

Why not?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Because they demonstrated no type of high-level skill and very little in the way of boxing or any other type of skill. But they did get in and go at it. For this you have to give them much credit.

Look at the other clips of the techniques, if this is what is trained then where is it in usage? The argument about what something looks or dose not look like is ill relevant.

If the usage dose not reflect the training, and skill used to acquire the tech then I would say the training is pointless.

This is why I think many people like the mma and bbj arts/ because the training and usage is the same; this should be true of any type of training. If not whats the point?

This is not a comment on any ones ability only on what is shown compared to the other clips of usage. My question would be why are they so different.


yes i am back/ to all who commented about "black ice" i thank you from the deep well of my heart. david

[Phantom Menace]

They demonstrated no type of skill? That's pretty snotty!

I'd like to see other internal martial arts player get in on this. Maybe next time it can be open to every internal martial arts school. Would you come and compete?

The selection of what is shown in the techniques clips have no correlation to what is shown in the fighting clips. The techniques clips were randomly selected and posted a long time ago. What are you looking for, actually class clips where the techniques used in the fight is being shown? Theres' ample footage of that. You can't see it unless you go to class. No freebies!!! If you know what to look for maybe you can see actual technique sequence. Obviously you don't know what to look for.

In what arena has another IMA player displayed their fighting skill in a mixed martial competition? I've never heard of any IMA player fight in any NHB/Pancrase type rules.

Bamboo Leaf please sign up to fight next time! It would be nice to see you on the web fighting with high level skill.

[Daniel Madar]

I agree with david whole heartedly.

I have sparred a bit with taiji, which I know david does not approve of... :)

Even so, what I found was that if I did not make a concerted effort to use the movements as I trained in them, I would get torn up, because I was essentially street fighting. You build a foundation in training. Why do so many people abandon it the second they enter a fight?

It was hard for me to understand that when I tried sparring using taiji. Naturally enough, at first there was just the nerves and the adrenaline. It had been ages since I sparred, and so I just went in there and willy nilly tossed out some sorry punches and kicks. They may have touched the guy I was sparring every now and then, but hell if they could have done damage.

After a while, I began to wonder...

"Golly, I am getting schooled. Could it be because I am not using anything I learned in taiji?"

So, I began to try to throw brush knees, a high pat horse here and there, a palm change. Certainly they werent the most beautiful things on earth, but a watcher could have clearly watched and said "2nd change", "repulse monkey". And naturally enough, it was my first time using them in sparring, so it was rough edged regardless.

Even so I was still getting schooled.

Why, because the guy I was fighting was a wado-Ryu karate guy, who would bounce around at a safe distance, angling for opening, bounce in and bounce out.

Essentially, I was playing his game. I may have been using techniques from taiji and bagua, but I was not using taiji or bagua.

So I began to try to do more than just a technique here or a technique there. When Karate guy jumped in, I slipped behind him. When he tried to turn, I stuck to him. When he tried to back out, I read it and added the little extra to knock him off balance and apply a high pat horse to the abs.

Thats when I was doing taiji. Did he still hit me? Sure, but thats what happens in sparring. The important part wasnt beating him, or taking him down. The important part was learning to use what I learned correctly and effective, from the ground up.

I think this is the fundemental problem with the clips here. That being said, I enjoyed them. Perhaps a bit more explanation is warranted, though. I would never have known the guy in black was holding back because of bad ribs and a sprained toe, but I did know he was holding back.

[Kumkuat]

I'm sure the ShenWu people are good fighters. They can probably kick my arse no problem. But you know, I'm wondering if they are using internal principles like relaxing, sinking, maintaining jing, moving from the dantien, etc., when sparring. Or are they just using the techniques externally. That is using local arm and shoulders? How long do they train before they spar? 1 year? 2 years? 10 years?

[Shooter]

Phantom Menace, why not what? :)

Why not are you afforded the right to pass judgement and negative commentary on the fighting skill of other IMA players? :)

I only know of one Tai Chi school in North America currently fielding fighters in the public MMA arena.

[Shin]

Why should I bother being respectful. If you put yourself out there on the web showing clips of your fighting skillz, then you put yourself out for commentary and criticism. I respect the willingness to receive both.

So far, not only have the shen wu failed to win my respect for their technique, they have failed to do so for the attitude they demonstrate in responding to criticism, when they have tacitly invited it. Or did I miss the banner that said, "please only comments about our techniques if you think we are cool"?

[bamboo_ leaf]

I don’t fight any more. My points come from a very long time of practice and observation. They where not meant as a put down only a reflection of what I saw.

As for me, my skill is very low compared to the many here. If some one has a question about skills then I am very happy to help them to understand my points. In person is always best.

As Daniel said I don’t favor this type of sparring because I feel it leads to confusion regarding real TC usage verses something else. What was shown is the why i think many people question CMA. There was no correlation between what was shown on the practice clips and that of free style usage even against another classmate. Aggression doesn’t count as skill but it may win a fight.

As for the skill in the clips, ask”Shooter” what he thought of how they controlled the space / ring , or how they closed the gap established a bridge and made use of the dreaded fa-jing that many talk about.

I don’t agree with what some may call TC boxing either. But that’s just me.

[bamboo_ leaf]

What many I think don’t understand is the use of what is called conscious awareness verses condition reflexes.

For me this is the heart of TC in what ever from it takes. But I also think it is very hard to really get to this level.

[Sum Guye]

Firstly, Kumkuat, students at Shen Wu are welcome
to spar as soon as they want to. I haven't seen any nut-cases wander in looking for blood yet, but everyone can find someone to spar at their level if they want to. (and yes, when we spar we try to maintian the internal principles and techniques we've learned- it's not so easy if/when you're getting beaned by your opponent who is also trying to use the same principles and techniques on you)

Secondly, as for the level of technique displayed, that tournament was almost every fighters first full contact experience- when we spar we don't generally go 'all out'. So it shouldn't surprise anyone who has experienced a full contact assault (with or without headgear) that most of the fighters weren't exhibiting the much desired relaxation and smooth techniques we're working towards. So yes, other than a few shining moments- most of the fighters were not using their best jing. (the fights were two 3-minute rounds the clips you're seeing are just snippits of the action from one angle).

Thirdly, Even though I won my fight I'm a bit chagrined by my own performance. I learned a heck of a lot and the experience was great. There is a great boxing adage: "every fighter has a plan until they get hit" which was certainly true for me. All the great moves I'd planned for weeks didn't work out like I'd 'planned'. That's where 'skill' comes in... I may not have much skill but I'm a heck of a lot closer to skill than those who haven't tested theirs in an actual full-contact fight. (also, I've seen videos taken from diferent angles- it's amazing how the angle can drasticly effect what the viewer thinks they're seeing).

Lastly, For those of you who say you've lost respect for Tim Cartmell because of what you
saw in several 45 second clips of guys having their first full contact tournament- well, you'll never understand what you are missing. That's a real shame... but hey, more class time for me.

Happy training,
Shane

[Shin]

For the record, I want to make sure that no one thinks I ever had respect for Cartmell to begin with, though I liked the xing yi nei gong book.

[Phantom Menace]

Shin,

Please stop...take your foot out of your mouth. You're making an a hole of yourself.

People who couldn't come to the tournament wanted to see it on the web. That's why it was posted. It's not meant to show off or impress you. I could care less what you think of it. Unless you come down and have at it with an advance Shen Wu student, you don't really know what you're talking about. Your criticism deserve no merit. I don't believe you are in a position to judge or criticise anybody anyway. Why don't you come down and judge quality of a Shen Wu fighter in person then you can post your experience all you want. I'm sure there's somebody that will ablige you.

Talk is cheap. Be a man of action. It easy to be an armchair critic when you feel safe behind your computer.

Shooter,

Why don't you show us some IMA player fighting in mixed martial arts tournament.

[Shin]

I see it has once again degenerated to name calling and challenging.

Oh, oh, I am so very scared.

If the tournament was posted so that people who couldnt come could see it, its pretty easy to make a private page, even if you just create one without a link and pass out the URL directly.

So, sorry, either you did it to show the public, or you were too dumb to figure out how to do it privately.

As for your belief that I am not in a position to judge or criticize... Quite honestly, I don't care what you believe. To be honest, I am surprised you care what I believe either, but you seem incapable of separating the internet from reality.

Trapped in the Matrix are we? Its alright, you know kung fu.


Now, as to going to Shen Wu, I have said before that I travel alot. If I am ever in the neighborhood I will swing by. Not a problem. Like I said, I spend most of my time in India these days though.

I think you feel bad that you posted the vids here, hoping everyone would tell you how cool it looks, and I called you on it. Well, sucks to be you. I hope you cry yourself to sleep tonight.

[Shin]

From the Shen Wu website discussion board.


"I won't post anymore, i prefer to practice anyway. Best Regards to all."

That's too bad. Even though I might be a little 'too sensitive' to your posts, you do raise good dialogue.

Don't quit because someone doesn't like what you say. This is a discussion board, it should raise issues that make you think about your original position. No offense, but to publically just quit like this and then state "well, I prefer to practice anyway" only gives the impression that you are taking a 'I'm better than you' attitude. If you really believe this, why did you post in the first place? Was it to hear different opinions or was it to show others that you are a real good martial artist in the know?

I don't state this to cause trouble, but if you want other opinion's post or give yours. There are some pretty interesting characters that I don't necessarily like that give their opinions on this board, but after I weed through the 'shock' they often do have very valid points.

Sometimes, growing is very painful.

[Internal Boxer]

To be honest I thought it was very good, very practical. I have done full contact "anything goes" and been in a few street fights what I have learned has served me well, and I feel the type of training shown in the clips is an excellent way to learn to defend yourself in a real street fight.

But if Shin feels differently about this then fine, I understand his point of view, I cannot say I agree with him but he has the right to his opinion. So please lets not get angry about this cause it is not worth the energy. No matter what others say about it just take in on the chin like a good right hook.

[NafAnal]

forgive me for being thick shooter, but i'm still trying to figure out if you are for or against those clips :)

from your first post it sounded like you said the shenwu guys have no right to be passing judgement, and the second it sounded like you say they have all right....

it's probably me just being dumb...

If memory serves me correct, you have fought mma haven't you shooter?

[Phantom Menace]

Shin,

:rolleyes: give it up.

[Shooter]

NafAnal, I was asking Phantom Menace what he meant when he asked "Why Not?" And gave an example of what I thought he meant. I'm not for, or against the clips. I liked some of the things that were going on in the matches.

I've done a bit of MMA over the last 5 years. My Tai Chi school has fielded a number of MMA fighters. Some first-year players, even.


As for the skill in the clips, ask”Shooter” what he thought of how they controlled the space / ring , or how they closed the gap established a bridge and made use of the dreaded fa-jing that many talk about.

leaf, :) are you kidding? I know nothing... :)

[Tim Cartmell]

There are some interesting posts here, I'd like to respond to some of the comments being made. First off, I originally was not going to post any fight clips on my site. The purpose of the tournament was to give my students an opportunity to test themselves in a fairly realistic venue (obviously with appropriate concerns for safety) so they could guage their present levels of ability under pressure (pressure of competition, pressure of an audience watching, pressure of someone really hitting back). We got a ton of requests to post some clips, so we did. If I wanted to impress everyone with "how cool it looks," I wouldn't have put up clips of my fighters that have only been training a few months. Why did we put up clips of begginers? So people could see that IMA training can produce some decent, basic fighting skills in months, not years. Some of you might want to take a little break from your criticisms of guys who actually fight and ask yourselves how well you would have done in a similar event after three or four months training (or even after three or four years of training). In answer to Kumkuat's question, most of my students will begin some limited free sparring practice by the third of fourth week of training.

It is fairly easy to deduce which of the posters here have any realistic fighting experience, is the street or on the mat. For all of my fighters it was their first time in a full-contact type event (outside sparring in class). They showed alot of heart stepping onto the mat. They won all their fights against students from other schools (who were primarily kick boxer/ grapplers), who had been training as long or longer than my students. When I see criticisms by people that expect real contact fighting/grappling to look exactly like technique practice on a completely cooperative opponent, or who think a Ba Gua fighter will just walk around behind someone, it becomes evident who understands fighting and who doesn't (I could be wrong, maybe Shin and Bamboo Leaf will post some clips of their latest full contact matches, so we can all see how it is really supposed to look).

Believe me, we don't mind constructive criticism, no one is more critical of my students ability (or my own, or that matter) than I am, but those of you who have no practical fighting experience (real or combat sport) are not qualified to make critcisms, you have no realistic point of reference. To those of you who do have a point of reference, I thank you for your comments and suggestions.

Finally, for those of you who have never sparred realistically with other determided fighters, I highly recommend you do. It could change your entire outlook on your training and how well you can really apply what you have practiced. Go to a gym with people that train to fight (boxing, BJJ, mixed martial arts...) and see how you do. You are only safe in fantasy until reality pays a visit.

[Kumkuat]

Isn't a few weeks too soon to be sparring? I mean, at that stage, they'll just learn bad habits that might be hard to break later on (ie. external movements). Shouldn't they practice more developing how to move internally before going into sparring?

[Shooter]

.

[blacktaoist]

My own opinion about Tim fighting clips is, I feel Tim is doing a good job in Helping his students to better understand what real fighting is all about.

I see nothing wrong would the fighting clips on Tim web page, Freefighting will never have a mass audience appeal from many of todays so called internal martial artist. Why Because many of them just don't have the courage to explore this kind of full-contact training themself.

The drawback for these internal martial artist is most of them will never be ready for a real fighting situation or be able to adapt."Because the fear of criticism keeps them from succeeding beyond the point their at(forms, Combat drills) to the next plateau.

What matters on the fight clips is no how good Tim students look fighting their opponent's, but the experience that tim students are getting to help develop their mindset and level of martial art skill, that will help them establish their own realistic methods and combine them with the techniques that Tim has taught them.

Freefighting is no just internal martial techniques, A few of the post reply I read by some of you talk about internal martial art principles not be being utilize in a few of the fighting clips. Ok, What about the principle of Wu-Wei, Now thats one principle that I see in all three fight clips being utilize by Tim students.

The bottom line is I never met Tim, but I feel he is doing a good Job training his students in realistic methods. No External or internal martial artist is going to look perfect utilize their techniques in a sparring situation or real fight.

Just my opinion.

Peace
:D

[Sum Guye]

I mean no disrespect to you with this reply, but that's the type of
backwards 'BS' thinking that allows lame teachers to profit for long periods from students who don't know any better.

The greatest writers in the world start out scribbling. They continue to build their knowledge and increase their abilities as they learn by doing. That type of thinking"it's too soon to....... because you'll train bad habits" if applied to any other activity (swimming, running, stand-up comedy, writing, driving) would seem be down right ridiculous. There are basics to be learned before starting anything, but one CANNOT ONLY practice movements of swimming and consider themselves a swimmer but never enter the water.

It's the folks who strive for betterment who will improve and eventually internallize movement. Not those who'll practice the butterfly stroke while lying on a park bench for 10 years before trying to swim. (how many times did you fall off of your bike before learning to ride it? did you get past your bad habbit of tensing up, shiffting weight and falling? --could you have learned to ride effortlessly without getting past those spontanious habbits?)

Trust me, any one who has practiced perfect Tai Chi forms for 15 years will get is butt kicked in his first real fight with someone who is comfortable fighting (trained or not).

Peas and lub,
Shane

[Esteban]

Hi,

I have to go along with BT on this one. Competitive fighting will never look like training unless training is fighting. The major advantages of western boxers, wrestlers, judoka, bjjers, etc. is that their training closely resembles their sparring. But, another way of looking at it is that the "internal" arts are *not* a collection of forms (if so, then none of them is complete or comprehensive); instead, imho, they are a collection (of choice) of specific "principles." Again, only mho, but one *never* needs to do a particular form, in a particular way, in order to manifest the "principles." Oh well, the last thing I'll suggest is that, the more actual sparring one sees or does in the different martial arts, the more similar the competitive fighting looks. Oops, I lied, one more last thing. TCC, in particular, is supposed to be "formless." I think people also expect it to look effortless. Well, ya gotta start somewhere, usuallly it's with a great deal of effort.

Respects,
Esteban

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by Sum Guye
I mean no disrespect to you with this reply, but that's the type of
backwards 'BS' thinking that allows lame teachers to profit for long periods from students who don't know any better.

Shane

I don't know, the four tigers (CXW, WX, ZTC, CZL) all were taught this way and probably teach this way too. But yeah, they probably can't fight, right? Of course, I don't mean do forms or standing only for 10 years or something. But most martial art school I've experienced train the how to kick, how to punch, how to lock, before they make them start rolling around. Then again, this is the traditional approach, and I heard that people start sparring in the first week at some MMA schools. Maybe the traditional way sucks.

[Sum Guye]

Forgive me for not knowing the names or histories of the 'Four Tigers', so the initials don't help me. I would assume they had some fighting experience before during and after their training. But I haven't researched them. (I didn't say anyone sucked)

You said "...before they make them start rolling around" using the word 'make' sounds as if rolling around is required, which is silly.

I doubt we'll ever agree on what is best. Enjoy your endevours as I enjoy the heck out of mine.

[Stacey]

Dear Sifu Tim,

Your site impressed me. Some of the apps are identical to 8step, but then we had the ba gua/hsing I influence too. Coming from that and Tai chi, I have to say that your stuff is good. I aspire to your level. One in particular was a flow drill, excellent kwa dropping. Anyways, it was gutsy to put your beggining students online and I respect you for it.

Trad (whatever that means) vs. modern training methods are something of adequate concern. You can have people hit each other without knowing anything and then what?

Esteban- Thats true with the efforless thing, however internals like tai chi require super levels of finesse. Ba gua and hsing I you can get away with a little less at the begining levels. It also depends on the depth the particular application involves. I mean, people use Peng almost like a karate high block.



effortlessness is what we go for hard and soft are two methods for apporaching the same point.

Without long practice one can not suddenly grasp tai chi. I think tai chi is great as a health practice to get people chi'd up and has amazing drills for flow and sensetivity that can be developed fairly quickly, but not to the point of adrenalized fighting with real hits,..not for a beginner.

I went backwards sparring without appropriate skill level. I got affraid of getting hit and reacted inapproprately. I eventually got through it, but in retrospect a more gradual process would have been better.. ..of course, at the time I wanted to get in there and do it.

[Tim Cartmell]

Kumquat,
I agree that allowing students to go all out in free sparring too soon may build bad habits. If you notice in my previous post I made the distinction that beginners start "limited" free sparring practice after a few weeks of training. They are not allowed to go all out in all ranges. Our philosophy of training was summed up in Shane's post above. Of course, some basics are required, but you will never learn how to realistically apply any skill until you start attemting the skill in realistic circumstances. As you become comfortable and familiar (and proficient) at one level, the training goes up a notch. My first Xing Yi Quan teacher in Taiwan entered me in my first full contact San Da tournament after about nine months of training. It was a 'traditional' Xing Yi Quan school (that believed martial artists should fight to test their skills), so one teacher's idea of the time frame and sequence of practice may not be the same as another's.

Blacktaoist,
I've heard you are an Internal martial artist that actually fights. I've heard alot of good things about your skills. Thanks for your input.

Esteban,
I completely agree, Iv'e been explaining the arts as collections of principles for years.

And finally, Stacy made a very good point at the end of the post. Students are individuals and need to be taught at the speed that is right for them personally.

[Water Dragon]

Fight One: Black dominated this fight. Red can be a solid fighter in the future if he learns to co-ordinate his strikes with his footwork more. Red is definately an outside fighter and needs to realize that. Red could probably make kicks an extremely effective weapon for him. Black does well. My only complaint is that he should have gone for the clinch/throw sooner when he backed red into the corner. The strikes were beginning to become ineffective at that point. If you notice, once Black realizes this, he takes control of the fight immediately. Was that a sub from inside the guard I saw?

Fight two: White needs to be hit more. He's still afraid of being hurt. That's OK though, it comes with expereience. Also, White needs to realize he is an inside fighter and work a lot on his throwing game. He has a good kick that he can develop into solid entries, but really does need some good Shuai Chiao or Judo training. The guy can be good if he works on this, IMO. I got the feeling there was a serious mismatch of skill level in this one. Black appears to be holding back and playing the "nice guy" role here. Black has good timing, a good perception of distance, and powerful strikes. He does appear to lack the ability to transition into the clinch and finish there. A lot of throwing opportunities he missed. Still, Black's fought before, is comfortable in the ring and it shows. Good fight.

Fight three: Black has some excellant opportunities to Upa when Red is going for the choke. The weight is already up there so the Upa has been set. It's simply a missed opportunity that can be worked on. Red held on to the choke too long, but it was a NICE transition into the arm bar there. I thought for a second that Red forgot to use his hips when he sunk the arm bar, but Hey!!! there it was at the end. Excelaant transitions, excellant finish, but abandon the choke sooner. A stone Blue would have murdered him when he brought his hips up that high in the mount.

I'm not discrediting anyone and thought the fights were good. These were just a few things I saw in the fights that the players might be able to work on. Good show from everyone involved. And yes, that is how Gong Fu looks in combat from what I have seen.

[Knifefighter]

Tim:
Nice post. I watched the clips and thought your guys looked great. You're exactly right. The people who are criticizing you are people who haven't done it themselves. I'd love to see them in there mixing it up with the guys they are criticizing- they'd get killed. I think you're doing a great job in training your fighters.

BTW is your open mat on Saturdays open to anyone?

[Sum Guye]

Tim rarely checks this board, but if you post your question on his board (shenwu.com, discussion) he'll respond within a few hours usually.

I know that anyone is welcome to come in and observe classes during normal class times.

[Phantom Menace]

We don't tolerate open sores, wounds, ringworms, or any nasty body odor. Bring clean clothes to grapple with. Take a shower before you come. Cut your finger and toe nails short.

[Sum Guye]

since it's Tim's open mat, you should let Tim respond to questions about open mat.

but the stuff about short nails and ringworm is good advice for sparring anywhere.

[Phantom Menace]

Guye,

Good suggestion! I edited my last post.

[Knifefighter]

Phantom Menace:

In case Tim doesn't see my post, do me a favor and ask him for me, will you?

Is your open mat grappling only, or do you include stand up and striking? Also, is it gi or no gi?

Are Tim or any of his guys competing at the Copa Pacifica this weekend?

[Phantom Menace]

Tim and one other guy from Shen Wu is fighting in the Copa this weekend.

I have seen guys at the open mat session ground grapple with gi or no gi. I've also seen some stand up grappling, throwing, and striking (with protective equipment). What is actually allowed on any given Saturday is up to Tim's discretion, I'm sure. Not that I'm answering for Tim or Shen Wu, but this is what I know about the open mat sessions.

[Knifefighter]

Phantom Menace:
Thanks for the info. Do you know what belt levels they'll be competing at? I'll be there and I'd like to check them out.

[Sum Guye]

Tim's in a brown belt fight on Sunday.

I think another student, Donovan, is competing Saturday afternoon.

There should be a lot of great stuff going on.

(by the way, I mentioned your 'open mat' post to Tim)
(and yep, all types of sparring goes on during open mat).

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Sum Guye
Tim's in a brown belt fight on Sunday.

Awesome- what's his weight? Maybe he's going against me.

[Sum Guye]

I think it's around 160. Hop over to shenwu.com's discussion board and get all your info directly from him.

Good luck in the tournament.

[Ray Pina]

I couldn't view the clips here or open the l;ast two pages, but would like to say this to those who are members of the school and fought:

Screw everybody. If you're going into the ring to test what needs to be tested, then good for you. YOu are making an effort and taking the steps that need to be taken to get to wher you want to go. You'll trip, stumble and fall now and then but you have tob take those steps regardless. Be mindful of technique. Train simple techniques that can be called on in those situations and most of all keep fighting.

I also don't know your teacher -- never heard of him before. Who cares what people say. IF if you guys were pathetic (I didn;t see the clips) one can not judge an instructor by his students. I've seen some good fighters who's studnets are either retarded and don't get it, or simp,y don't train hard enough. Not his fault if he's passing the knowledge down in a clear way.

Keep doing what you're doing.

As for the idea that Ba Gua get's behing their apponant, if you look at it as walking behind them, that is a very lowe level, unrealistic view of it. How easy is it to pivit to keep someone in front of you? The other would have to be blind or stupid or perhaps both.

Study the first palm. The bridging. You can end up behind them, but its not you walking around.

[CD Lee]

Personally, I don't care how good or bad the fighting looked. Don't you guys like to see what really happens in certain situations? I do. So it was not so pretty, but it was real sport. I don't think a street fight would look like those matches of course, but there are things to learn.

Shane - I thought I heard the guys yelling that they had to use an open hand only in the fight. I can understand that. However, how would you guys be able to throw a wood punch with an open hand? The reason I ask, is that I have won several street fights with body shots only, and no head shots at all. The guys were frozen the minute I sunk in the fist, so one or two follow up shots to the body, and they completely stopped responding. I am not sure I could spar using an open hand with say 'Water' or 'Wood'. Just some thoughts on applications and sport matches thats all. I think the clips were great to see, and I wish I could see a lot more. Very cool stuff! (although to be honest, I was really expecting like a Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris type fight in an abandoned arena!)

I know I am using Xingyi terms, and the guys may not be doing Xingyi.

[Sum Guye]

I've never heard of a 'wood' punch. I study Sun Style bagua and have had lots of Yang Tai Ji experience... I've watched numerous XingYi classes and never heard of wood or water punches. Can you tell me more about them?

Lots of head shots landed in the tournament (not in the clips yet, but they're coming) a few closed fisted punches and elbows were slipped in because old habbits are hard to break in the heat of things. The yelling you heard was on the Bobby vs Fred fight... one guy landed a wicked kick which spun his opponent around. As soon as the opponent spun, the taller guy elbowed him hard twice in the face. From the angle of that camera, you can't really see the elbows land... but from where I sat, it was pretty brutal.

A solid palm to the head can do as much damage as a close fisted punch, and the wider area of contact will cause the pain to spread out more (with the added benefit of not breaking your hand... which can end a fight quickly.).

[Ray Pina]

I find its hitting power to be great -- without a doubt.

But I find its greatest benefit to be in opening someone's door. To go from striking an attack to that instant where there is a lot of clutter of shield on shield or bridge to bridge, the movement is pricless for creating that opening for the other hand to come in and lay down some damage. I like Hsing-I a lot.

[Sum Guye]

Sorry CDL, I misread your previous post. The rule was "only open hand strikes to the head". Kicks to the head were fine, closed hand strikes to the body/knees to the body etc were legal.

There were lots of hardcore body punches going on. Those
clips will be posted soon. (Many of the Shen Wu guys were XingYi students).

[Phantom Menace]

Crap!!! Sum guye, put more pressure on the guy to put up more Shen Wu tourney clips. While he is at it why don't you tell him to put some clips of Tim teaching. That guy needs to get on the ball! I think he is just plain lazy!

[Sum Guye]

Meynard aint lazy. He rocks. He spends all his time soaking up everything Tim teaches, works like a dog and fits in quality time for the ladies.

But then again... I've been waiting over a year for him to give me the only footage ever of me pulling off a lucky throw on Tim... and
I think he said he'd make me a copy of his Jack Dempsy book on punching around Christmas, 2000... and Tim's been waiting a LONG time to get xerox copies of something.

Hey, you're right.... he's one lazy *******!

[Phantom Menace]

ha ha ha the pressure is on!!! You might get a late Christmas present this weekend.

[CD Lee]

By all means, more clips. We like them, no matter what that certain percentage will always say about them. Remember this regarding quality of expected viewing of any footage:

Mike Tyson is not as crisp as he used to be or as crisp and sharp as the very top level boxers today. But he could land me on my tail faster than white on rice.

Wood. Well, it is one of the five elements that Xingyi is based on. Water is one of the other elements Xingyi is based on. They are both covered in Xing Yi Nei Gong, of which I know you are farmiliar. Anyways, they have not been covered in my classes at this point in time either. So don't feel left out.

[Ray Pina]

That's an odd rule. You can't punch someone in the face with a fist but you can unload on their head with a kick?

Kind of like, don't play with matches but here's a flamethrower.

[CD Lee]

Evolution Fist,

:D :D
I gotta admit, that is pretty funny. I guess a well timed kick to the head could do some pretty severe damage. Especially if the other guy gets tired.

In fact, I took a 'stiff arm' palm from a guy in football one time to the chin, just having fun, and I can say, he hit me harder than a TRUCK!!! I lifted off the ground and flew with my head half disconnected. The funny thing is, he was a skinny wimp, running scared with a football. That palm lives in infamy in my mind.

You know the classic stiff arm in football is a great Xingyi application of 'out front', 'elbows down'. :)

[Sum Guye]

the 'no fists to the head' rule was not in place to safe guard heads, but was there to safe guard 'hands'.

[CD Lee]

I can understand that rule. Hey Sum Guye, tell me, what is your guys (Shen Wu) most common fist injury? I know classic western boxing fists have major problems in street fights with breaking the outside pinky finger behind the knuckle. Doctors call it a boxers fracture because they are so common. I broke mine the same way.

I know in Xingyi or Hsing-I, a lot of the fists are opposite western boxing, with the palm facing up, placing the pinky in a safer position. That is not why they do that, but I was just wondering if Xingyi guys you and Tim know, have had any problems breaking hand bones in any particular pattern from fighting.

[Phantom Menace]

The jab from boxing didn't really come into prominance until they started wearing mufflers (gloves). I believe it was Mendoza who started really doing jabs. Punching to the head without the protection of hand wrapping and gloves will inevitably result in a fractured hand. Even professional boxers fracture their hands even with gloves on. And it's probably from throwing a jab or jab cross and hitting the top of the head.

If you look at the pictures of old bare knuckle fighters they have their fist also turned up which looks similar to Xing Yi's Zhuan Quan. The punches are directed to the jaw and neck area using whole body power.

I was talking with a professional boxing trainer a couple weeks ago about fight strategy. He said to hit the body first. People like to hit for the head too much too early. Slip and punch the body with straight punches and hooks then upper cut to the chin or hook the jaw or temple area.

[Sum Guye]

none really. In Sun Bagua all strikes to the head are open handed (less chance of hand damage plus a quicker transition to grabbing). I can't speak for the Xing-Yi guys- but the sparring isn't usually 'all out' so I doubt fist injuries are common for them.
(I probably would have heard about it if it was).
And as Phantom M. posted above, many of the Xing-Yi strikes are
to the throat or soft tissue.

Other than getting a painful of a bone-bruise on a middle finger joint by hitting a hard face guard at an odd angle, I haven't had a problem.

[CD Lee]

Good info Phantom.

On bare knuckle fighters, many of them after a big important fight, would have hands so badly damaged, that they were basically crippled for life, and had to retire. That is sad really.

I think a western boxing jab is a great tool in a fight, as long as you know how to strike properly, and not too hard. If you make a quick snapping contact, you can follow up basically anywhere on the body with your other hand, or foot, or even take his Centerline away with a manouver. Do you realize, that 99 out of 100 guys, can last longer in a fight if they take shots to the face or head, verses a clean body shot? Not pro trained boxers, but average people. A pro boxer is completely opposite.

Also, the probability of hitting where a pro boxer does in a street fight is risky and dangerous. Any strike to the head is hard on the hands, except one that has some give to it, such as the jaw. But going for that spot is not so easy if the guy is moving. Also, n a real fight, you don't have hardly any time to set up and think.

A body shot is far far easier. I have won fights exclusively with body shots and here is what I found, that i don't see with boxers on TV, or the UFC. Without exception, the guys 'froze' after the first strike to the soft body. At that point, I could have hit or kicked anything else within a second. However, the body is soft, so I just hit there again on those cases. Why not? It ended the fight and nobody got really hurt bad.

[Liokault]

CD Lee



"On bare knuckle fighters, many of them after a big important fight, would have hands so badly damaged, that they were basically crippled for life, and had to retire. That is sad really. "

Puts me in mind of the old English bare knuckle fighters. Some of thease fights would go on for 60 rounds and many hours with no punches being thrown. they knew that there was a huge chance of their hands getting broken so any punches thrown had to be knock out blows. most of thease fights ended with just such blows.

Also i have recently watched some gypsey bare knuckle fighting on video. The fights were cut so i had no way of knowing how long they went on for but all the fights had very few punches thrown and most fights ended with a big knock out punch.

[CD Lee]

That is wild. I know, how other could these guys have done 20+ rounds? A lot of the early American fights were the same way. You know they could not have really gotten after it or the first guy to tire would be dead meat.

Another very intesting observation. I have heard from past sources that the bareknuckle fighters had fewer facial cuts from skin on skin contact. Evidently leather and wet human skin do not slide off of each other was well as live human skin on skin. You actually watched those long fights, or just highlights?

Also, you know, they did not tape their hands with heavy tape I think, and just imagine how much danger there is of even more injuries without extra support.

I think boxing is a pretty incredible sport if done properly. They can adapt their moves to the street quite well if they know how. I see lots of boxers that can come in off their opponents punch, and instantly slip behind them, while grabbing thier puching arm, even with gloves on. They always pause the fight and break at that point, but on the street that is an awesome counter move.

[Liokault]

No the old English fights I was refering to were stoped a long time ago....like 1800s. I just got the info from martial history books.

The only guys who fight bare knuckle in the UK now dont tend to have rounds but the gypses who seem to be doing most of it at least have a rudimentery set of rules that exclude kicking head butting etc.

I have a friend who is trying to get me in to see some gypsey fighting. Very hush hush.

[Kuanti]

There's a interesting book that has a lot of stories about the old bare knuckle fights, plus some interesting stuff on boxing as an MA.

Championship Streetfighting : Boxing As a Martial Art
Ned Beaumont

[Azreal]

Phantom Menace, why such a big chip on your shoulder?