tournament chi sau

[wingchunalex]

i went to the great lakes kung fu championships. the chi sau was terrible. it looked more like sumo for skinny people. we did 1 minute defece, one minute offence, then one minute were we both attacked and defended. when i was attacking the people pushed me back, with their palms, since when is putting your hand on the other guys chest and pushing a defencive technique, or litteraly grabbing the guys elbows and shuving. it totally went against kung fu princples-never meet force with force, let alone wing chun principles. there was only one match that i saw good technique in, and both of those people didn't push. i didn't see one pak da, lop da, or trapping sequence. what do you think of my experience or have you had similar experiences?

[kj]

Originally posted by wingchunalex
i went to the great lakes kung fu championships. the chi sau was terrible. it looked more like sumo for skinny people. we did 1 minute defece, one minute offence, then one minute were we both attacked and defended. when i was attacking the people pushed me back, with their palms, since when is putting your hand on the other guys chest and pushing a defencive technique, or litteraly grabbing the guys elbows and shuving. it totally went against kung fu princples-never meet force with force, let alone wing chun principles. there was only one match that i saw good technique in, and both of those people didn't push. i didn't see one pak da, lop da, or trapping sequence. what do you think of my experience or have you had similar experiences?

Not having been there to see it, and not knowing the rules, I obviously I cannot speak to what people were doing (e.g., good wing chun, or wing chun at all). I confess I am not a fan of tournaments, as IMHE, the downsides outweigh the upsides in many regards. For better or worse, they are, however, potential learning opportunities, and your good questions raise some others.

Even if pushing isn't the ultimate in defense (and I do not propose that it is), does it not indicate that the other guy was controlling your structure and center? If so, that would seem to indicate a vulnerability on your part, and a terrific learning opportunity.

Similarly with elbows. If he was able to use your elbows as a lever to control your center, move you back, or furthermore take the steam out of your attacks, didn't he have advantage?

If the opponent was able to get his hand on your chest, no less long enough and soundly enough to push you back, could not that hand also reach you to strike? The fact that he may not have struck, does not negate your vulnerability to someone who might.

The Wing Chun that I learn and practice is not about chasing hands, so focus on the body rather than demonstration of hand techniques and combinations doesn't sound weird to me.

Again, don't know the rules of the tournament, the players, what they did or didn't do, or even how much Wing Chun was or wasn't involved, but assuming that tournament fighting might, in some universe, serve a higher purpose than trophies and ego, it sounds like you got some great feedback that you can use in your own learning and development. Regardless of how contrived the circumstances of the tournament were, seems like there could be some "real" figting lessons in there somewhere.

So who won?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Frank Exchange]

Im also not a fan of those type of tournaments. The idea of defending and attacking separately is IMHO alien to the concepts of wing chun.

One of our WSL lineage guys got disqualified in the first few seconds of one of these competitions. He was told to defend, the chisau started, the other guy made a move, and our guy hit him in the face, deflecting his strike with his punching arm.

"What the h3ll are you doing?" the judge yelled. "You are supposed to be defending!"

Our guy looked unabashed. "That was my defence."

:) That, to me, is one of the essences of WC.

[dezhen2001]

:)

david

[kj]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange

Our guy looked unabashed. "That was my defence."

Ha ha - great story, Frank. :D
- kj

[reneritchie]

Not a fan of Chi Sao competition either, but IMHO WCK doesn't talk about "not fighting force with force" but about not crashing force into force, or resisting with brutish force. WCK uses force against force in the classic sense of smart/intelligent force against dumb force (twice the results with half the effort). Soft force, yielding force, elastic force, etc. or applying force from superior/better position (apply force in the direction of the wind).

In any case, even if the other person isn't doing WCK "right" or is doing it in a brutish fashion, "good" WCK should theoretically overcome it. So, at the end of the day, it shouldn't be "I lost because that guy was using a lot of strength" but "Cool, it was so easy to win with that guy using so much strength" 8)

Rgds,

RR

[hunt1]

This highlights one of the major problems of chi sao competitions.Different schools have different training methods and expect different things in a competition.Sumo Sao is the reason Nick Scrima removed Wc from the tourny he sponsers in St Pete.For 3 years in a row all anyone saw was sumo sao.

I understand your point Alex you expected defense yet got an attack to the chest.the question is what is defense in WC and what is meant be defense in a tourny.

The only person I know of the ever tied to get past this in a tourny setting was Phil Nearing in the Great Lakes tourny a few years ago.His solution was to have the san sao judges judge and they looked for clean strikes.This had the merit of being fair for everyone.However the other WC Sifus' present strongly objected to having non WC people judge and using a clean strike as a judgement tool.After all WC is not a martial art and therefore we shouldnt be judged on how well we protect ourselves or attack our opponent.:D

I dont think there is a way to do a chisau tourny where everyone would be happy with the judging or the rules.While you should be able to deal with grabbing or pushing I think that by the time you reach this skill level in WC you are past the interest in tournements.

[yuanfen]

I am not a fan of chi sao "competitions" though I have judged some. But if one is alert one can learn something from every experience.

[OdderMensch]

I went, I competed (got third) and I had a great time! This was the first one of these events I have entered and it was a blast.

Buddy Wu's people were excelent (of course) and Sifu Bey had a lage compliment of excelent students and good sports. One of them even showed up afterwords to touch hands with us. I was unable to touch hands with any of the Cleveland Wing Chun people. Which was my lacking, as I have read many of the articles avalible online.

Who were you WCA? I was meaning to get with someone from your school to swap tapes if thats possible. More angles will allow all of us to learn more from this event. I have a friend who can digitize the tape I have, and I will post them (somewhere) asap. PM me or email me off list (seanwingchun@yahoo.com)

hunt1 - I was not there for this one but....


His solution was to have the san sao judges judge and they looked for clean strikes.This had the merit of being fair for everyone.However the other WC Sifus' present strongly objected to having non WC people judge and using a clean strike as a judgement tool.

As well they should.


After all WC is not a martial art and therefore we shouldnt be judged on how well we protect ourselves or attack our opponent.

There is already a format for that, its free sparing. Chi Sau is a specific drill made to train a specific trait. In a "chi sau contest" you might look for stucture, root, sticking, maybe some "Gan geep ging" or other things that take a good WC sifu to see. While a forward wieghted right cross, or a duck and clinch may be good ideas, and clean strikes they have there place. That place is not in Chi Sau.

We were fortunate that we had a good cross sample of WC veiwpoints and ideas. If three out of four say they saw better Chi Sau in person A then person B (after a fairly small sample) then I acept that.

anyway I will post clips soon, i hope, I began writing this before class and he was not there, oh well maybe friday.

-SM

[KenWingJitsu]

LMFAO! @ chi-sao competition. that sounds so gay. Why not frickin spar instead.

[yuanfen]

C'mon....atleast they are not rolling around on the ground with each other for 45 minutes-trying out bjj postures.

[byond]

hey guys,
can someone list all the schools that participated????not just from ohio...............................b

[yuanfen]

Odder mensch-I do hope that you can post some pictures somewhere.

[OdderMensch]

I just gave the tape to a friend that can tranfer it to CD, then i'll have to find some web space to post it on.

I of course cannot post the whole thing, but I will try to show a few matchs.

WCA ,or any one else who was there, any requests? WCA you mentioned seeing one round with some good chi sau. Do you remeber who competed, what division, anything? Anyone want/ not want themselves shown?

If all goes smoothly, i'll be able to post something in a few days.

[Shadowboxer]

Hey Oddermensch, I'm going to digitize the clips now. In the meantime, look for a website that you can upload the clips to. Perhaps, someone on this forum knows of a place that will host these clips?? I'm going to make the clips .mpg if .mov file is too big. Actually, I'll make both just in case. See ya Friday.

[kungfu cowboy]

Why not have wing chun tournament fighting instead of chi sao competion? Isn't it a martial art? Chi sao competion sounds really really stupid, on par with stupid tai chi pushhands, point karate, and the macarana. Use it how it is intended. A-Duh!

[red5angel]

Kungfu Cowboy, I think that Chi Sau is still an integral part of the system and can be a form of 'sparring'. Like most tournemants it seems they have turned to showy stuff, like forms type work instead of actual fighting.
I for one would be happy to get into a Wing Chun fighting tourney, if they have them!

[kungfu cowboy]

No, I agree that chi sau is an incredible tool for developing sensitivity, positioning, etc. But its just a step to the goal of using wing chun to fight. Offering both as tournament options is a good idea. There is the ability to showcase skill with chi sao; but its not the end result of what wing chun is designed for. Same with push hands, and maybe even point karate; but definitely not the macarana.

[red5angel]

I am in 110% agreement with you KF cowboy! While Chi Sau may be our crown jewel, the art is for fighting and it should be used that way. It is the beginning of this process and will continue to serve to hone the fighting sensitivity but it is not the goal.

If any of your opinions differ from mine, and I know they wont on this forum since we are usually in agreement, I will destroy you.

[KenWingJitsu]

I agree!!!

FIGHT!!!!!!

[kungfu cowboy]

Careful: I am gassy.:(

[OdderMensch]

why not just change the San Soo rules so we can do our thing there?

I am in agreement that Chi Sau is a tool for learning, a partnered exercise, and makeing it into a sport or a game is a bit of a stretch. But **** it was fun :D! Even more fun was getting the oportunity to "touch hands" with some people afterwards. None of Carl's people made it, but one of Sifu Bey's did. And several other Kung Fu people.

While it is a bit difficult you can have qualifed experts look for the specific qualites Chi Sau is meant to develop ie structure, sensitivity, positioning.

still we should bat around the Idea of WC specific fighting contest.

[kungfu cowboy]

Hmmm. No, it should not be wing chun vs wing chun. It should be a multiple style event. And it should involve a bit of fighting. Interesting results though. There really was no fighting with wing chun?

[kungfu cowboy]

Maybe I've got the wrong idea here. Anybody know the rules? Is there contact involved? Is it flowing attack and defense, or stop and go? Any kicking allowed? Or is it just rolling arms?

[mun hung]

I've witnessed a couple of chi-sau competitions in the past, and was'nt very impressed with all the sloppiness. Three rolls and then anything goes. Sparring matches were alot more interesting and tempting.

[Alpha Dog]

"Those in a rush to be called winners are usually losers."

[yuanfen]

Even more fun was getting the oportunity to "touch hands" with some people afterwards.
---------------------------------------------------
Curious...were good people from Buddy Woo's group there? How did they do?

[byond]

yuanfen------have you seen sifu wu's forms before? does sifu fong ,and sifu wu perform there forms the same way as ho kam ming


can anyone post the results of the tourney????i would like some specifics about who did what>>>>>>>>>>:)

[yuanfen]

I have seen Sifu Fong and Sigung Ho's forms. The principles are exactly the same but there are differences in details and they both know(and me too) what they are. I have not seen Sifu Wu's forms, I have met him and touched hands with a couple of his students.
Different growths coming from the same roots.

[OdderMensch]

the rules were simple. Light contact to the head, medium to the body, looking for contact. There was a call of "roll" then a call to "begin" so none of that three rolls then go business. Chi Sau was done in an 8x8 square with no points for pushing the other person "out" that just stoped the time and you restarted. Judgeing was from four qualifed instructors with three votes needed to win.

I don't know the name of the winner of my division (advanced tall), but it was one of Sifu Bey's people.

Unfortunetly Sifu Wu's students had to leave right away, the touching of hands was done at about ten that evening.

I hope to go to the Dallas TaiChi Legacy and I belive several of his people will be there then, and we will be able to organize tihngs a bit better.

That being said if any of Sifu Wu's pepole are on line, or anyone else is going to the Dallas thing E-mail me off list or post here.

Clips coming soon :D!

[aelward]

I have been to two chi sao tournaments, once as a particpant, and another as an observer. I came away with negative opinions about it both times, but enjoyed the chance to meet and work with other WC families afterwards.

Both tournaments did the attack 1 minute, defend one minute, free for all next. The first one, the KF nationals in Baltimore, even included kicking, but only above the waist. Talking about outrageous, considering most families I have seen concentrate kicking below the waist! Also, there was a boundary that, if you were pushed over, would cause you to lose points. Therefore, the strategy for the people who were veterans to that particular tournament were to kick above the waist and push out of the ring! Also, the posted rules said no contact to the head, but in fact, in the advanced divisions, you COULD hit to the head!

The second tournament was less sloppy, but I felt that there was some judge bias.

[asn3]

Hi all,

Long time lurker here--thought I'd make my first post here on this thread. Thought I'd toss in my couple of cents..

Anyways, I was at the Great Lakes tourney as well. I may have talked to a couple of you there...appeared in one match against the guy who wound up winning advanced tall (if that clues you in).

Would have to concur that things looked less than clean, to put it mildly, though it's my opinion that the dimensions of the 'ring' contributed a bit to this. I'd actually like to see the area enlarged (was it really 8x8? it felt smaller) so you can take more than one step back without having to reset (and getting points deducted). The path of least resistance given that setup seems to be to make the other guy step out of bounds by any means possible (ie, push). Looked like a lot more points were scored that way then were actually scored from clean looking strikes.

I'd be interested in hearing from the folks who were there which matches (or match, as the case may be) they thought illustrated 'good technique.' There was a guy (a reporter, I think) who had never seen wing chun before and watched some of the chi sao briefly. Overheard him talking to one of the guys on the sidelines--he said something along the lines of, 'it reminds me of the fights I had when I was a little kid on the playground...no one gets hurt...' Interesting first impression, huh.

Lastly, [as he's been mentioned a couple times in this thread] I study under Buddy Wu, if any of you had any questions in that regard...

later.

[OdderMensch]

I didn't think that getting shoved out of the ring cost you a point or anything, it just stoped the round. I gave out my tape so that it could be digitized or i'd watch your match again. I was the bearded guy from Fort Worth. I meant to get some contact info from the one running the camcorder, but i got caught up doing other things. I was hopeing to get as many angles of the match as I could, for optimal post match learning.

Who was the person who got second's name? He's in your school right? He won our match, and said he might be in Dallas this year.

[asn3]

I thought you were allowed to step out 3 x w/o penalty and thereafter they started deducting? I might be wrong. Oh well, no big deal as far as I'm concerned--I was trying more to toss out a general comment rather than complain about my match in particular.

Yeah, the second place guy is a classmate of mine. Not sure if he'd like me using his name here, though, so I won't--I do remember him mentioning possibly going to Dallas, if that's helpful.

[burnsypoo]

If you have to have a tournament, then you might as well take advantage of the ability to structure the competition. You can try and use it as a tool for the participants. Having that mindset will help you create a good set of rules and judging elements.

If it's 8 foot square, that could be good because you don't really want to be encouranging people to take more than one step back anyways. It's enough room for one person to get the other person's balance (happens within one step) and attack. If you wanna train always taking lotsa steps back undercontrol and stuff, more power to ya, but we're trying to keep it simple here.

You'd want to be encouraging some good habits, even within the tournament. So not encouraing just being a bull (though the other person logically, should be able to handle that within a step as well, but.. that's another story), but helping to develop the mindset of simply "dropping someone where they stand". (you can encourage the "run em down and up the wall" in other places or venues. we're starting off simple here)

Actually though, you could make it so that if someone goes out of the ring, whoever pushed them out gets warned (unless it looks like the person was simply walking backwards out in which case you're warn them). I think that that might help take away some of the "sumo sao" that you were talking about.

IMO, should be encouraing elements like

- keeping one's balance (stationary and mobile)
- taking the others balance (stationary and mobile)
- entering from san sau in addition to the chi sau
- control of hands
- distancing
- intent... etc.

so whatever rules/conditions you can make to encourage those elements is starting off in the right place. Maybe encourage the perspective that these guys have to IMPRESS the judges as opposed to BEATING their 'opponent'. You'd be amazed at how something like that (especially with ego is involved) can change people's views on it.

I'm actually not a huge fan of chi sau tournaments myself, but I think that the "success" or "failure" of a chi sau competition is in the reffing/enforcing of its rules.

just some thoughts.
-BP-

[OdderMensch]

Maybe encourage the perspective that these guys have to IMPRESS the judges as opposed to BEATING their 'opponent'.

transposed from the rules :

Technical Considerations
Wing Chun Chi Sau is at its heart, controlling one's opponent through sensitivity, trained reflexs, and proper technique. Because of this it is possible for a competitor to win through controlling his opponents actions during both the Defensive and Mutual Exchange rounds instead of simply winning through striking with greater frequency. Such considerations along with proper Wing Chun technique, form the basis for judging. There is a venue which grades simply on who strikes more but that is free sparing, not Chi Sao.

asn3 : Thats cool, I was just hopeing to talk with him
(and anyone else possibly coming to Dallas) before hand to arange for some entertainment and disscusion. My Sifu has always spoken highly of your school and I dont want to miss another oportunity to "talk shop" Please feel free to provide him with my Email address (seanwingchun@yahoo.com), or email me off list and I can provide a phone numer/ street address.

[benny]

i went to a chi sao comp in fut san a few years ago and it was so bad. it looked like bad summo. people doing hip tosses and one guy even did that lay on your back and flip them over you, great ving tsun? the rules seemed to be the major problem with people just leaning and throwing punches.
I talked to some of the hong kong people about it and they explained the rules and where shocked when I surgested doing it like boxing. Who ever didnt get up lost. Considering the matches they used to have I didnt see anything wrong with it.
In three days (i left but got the video later) there was one pair of people that looked like they did some traps and they were both from yip chun schools( i think the knowledge of each other made it more controled then just slapping everywhere.)
the rules
#where no head stikes except for the finger portion of the hand.
#punches to body only
# they wore dust goggles and tkd chest pads.
most points were made by pushing the person out of the ring and it was about 10mx10m

[OdderMensch]

The rules for any contest should be simple. Limited power hitting, no kicking, no elbows, no chin na, no fa ging. While padding, mats, or gloves may aid in mitigating any misshaps it also mandates a multitude of regulations, specifications and complications.

Should scoring be a list of checks and points, with one point for hitting, 1/2 a point for deflecting, coupled with penaltys for leaveing the ring, unsportsmanlike conduct, spitting, ect? Or should qualified people gauge then rate the performance?

While I might dissagree with specific techniques, strategys, tactics, structures or positions I rarely dissagreed with who won.

The only way I can see to make it go smoother is if the judges got to weild bamboo poles and were to wack anyone breaking there structure, being to passsive, or just that genuinely need to be wacked with some bamboo.

well I may have to scrape up a few bucks for web space but i'll post video soon.