Whos done a breakdown of force in the martial world?

[diego]

you hear about things like inch force wave force spiral force chi using the extension of a previous strike to create momentum from the tension in the next strike, for added effect"elastic strike?"
Someone wrote on this awhile back, how when you put your hand up in gaurd, your limbs are stretched creating like aelastic for the next strike?. im logging off

but if you guys know these things, and can breakdown all the forces styles have isolated as thier jewels, and can explian this, in lamemans terms, and from a western sport medicice/kinetic perspect, that would be marvalous.

if not i gotta go through my books, and catalog my impression, of forces described in chikung theory, then ask yall how this relates to western boxing, to compare with wingchun. YAH


start typing, yall:)

[JusticeZero]

The thing is that the different types of force are based around different principles. Often, you have to have certain stance work for a given kind of force, which is really just a way of explaining and isolating the dynamics of a specific technique. Western Boxing does fine, really; it's a classical martial art with a long and reasonably illustrious history; it's dynamics seem quite well suited to it's preferred stances.

Or, you could wait for someone who's IN one of those arts and not merely waiting for some laundry to dry before being able to sleep.. really i'm just bored, psyched about seeing my mestre over the weekend, and trying to decompress. But from what i've seen in my limited tai chi experience and my book learning, my explanation should be reasonably correct..

[scotty1]

Why wait for the laundry to dry before you can go sleep?
Why not let it dry overnight?:D

Sorry Diego, I don't think I could give you a satisfactory answer.:)

[NafAnal]

I don't think there's any difference. In the end, when you hit your opponent force is force. There's differences in how the force is generated (that's what everyone is training for) but all you want to do is change his momentum as quickly as you can. Course there's loads of different striking surfaces which can change the effect of the strike but i don't think you can split the term "force" into different catergories.

[diego]

my main reason for this study, is i remember throwing the classic lame jonwayne punch"overextended roundhouse" and knocking the guy down usually, but also i would break my knuckle.

Then you read about styles like hsingyi, that drive thier shoulder into thier punch, and wingchun uses minimal shoulder extension, more driving from the elbow?.
But i see what you mean about the hands make sence for thier stance geometrics/ but to a basic mind, that jonwayne punch and a kuyucheung ironpalm breaking the last brick, at face level looks differant, but its all relaxing/coiling/settling and explosion.

So ima reword this, FRIG I HAVE TO GET OUT MY YANGJWINGMING CHIKUNG BOOKS, i hate those, i have no idea:confused: :cool:

[[Censored]]

I don't think there's any difference. In the end, when you hit your opponent force is force. There's differences in how the force is generated (that's what everyone is training for) but all you want to do is change his momentum as quickly as you can.

There can be differences in the amount and direction of force over time. A one-inch punch and a shove (for example) with the same total amount of force, to the same target, will have very different effects on the recipient.

[NafAnal]

"There can be differences in the amount and direction of force over time. A one-inch punch and a shove (for example) with the same total amount of force, to the same target, will have very different effects on the recipient."

What? No there is no difference and what you described is impulse. The product of force and time.

What you have described will have different effects on the recipient because the actual force is different. Suppose i use the said striking surface on said area (e.g. palm to solar plexus) if i change his momentum by a set amount in a set amount of time then no matter what method i use to generate the mechanic, the magnitude of the force will be identical. Whether that be once inch punch or a shove (well i say shove but all a punch is is a very fast "shove")

[diego]

Now when we talk about chipower, how/what does that relate within the equation, such as what is it, and how will it make my classic jonwayne punch more effective, i cant get a scientific visualization on chi, as everyone says **** like its the unseen intrinsic energy, and we all just need to learn to open our bodys, so we can better fillup, like its a spritual thing, but it becomes physical when applying techs such as kyc's ironpalm demo, break the last brick. Or thats whats usually implied, noone ever explians it, like with your supreme relaxed sensitivity, your palm cups the top brick createing a vacuum, then it bursts into the bottom brick, all done by, your supreme bodycoil, put into root and release?.
im ranting, but does this make sence what im trying to figure out?, i'm basically brainstorming, getting you guys to word this proper for me, as i aint got the credentials:)

[JusticeZero]

>Why wait for the laundry to dry before you can go sleep?
>Why not let it dry overnight?

Because the laundry in question included my sheets and blanket.

While "force is force", the way the force is delivered can cause it to have different effects. Accelerating after contact is made turns the strike into a push, to move the body, while impacting with high velocity and mass near the end of the movement will expend the energy in deforming that part of the target and bruising. Striking with a softer and larger surface will have different effects than a small, hard surface. The direction the energy is directed into the target at will result in different effects on the target.

[NafAnal]

However, force is still force. Changing what you do after contact is changeing the force you exert. So you can't really compare it.

"Accelerating after contact is made turns the strike into a push, to move the body"
true but this isn't changing the way force is delivered. It's changing the actual force.

"while impacting with high velocity and mass near the end of the movement will expend the energy in deforming that part of the target and bruising. "
Again this isn't changing the method of delivering force, its changing the force itself.

"Striking with a softer and larger surface will have different effects than a small, hard surface. The direction the energy is directed into the target at will result in different effects on the target."
Like i said striking surfaces matter. But this is more of a case of different materials with different physical properties, rather than a question of force.

[HuangKaiVun]

diego, good question. You ask about "jing", or power generation.

Which style do you want to know about? Each method has its own jing, and even subsets withing a style will have a different power generation.

You mentioned Yang Jwing Ming's books. Dr. Yang practices several different styles, each with its own unique jing. Even the Yang Chen Fu 108 set clearly has a different jing from the "Classical Yang Taijiquan" presented by Dr. Yang.

Keep in mind, diego, that a style's sets point a practitioner in the direction of the right jing. Some guys get it immediately, others (most) can spend their entire lifetimes without getting it.

[JusticeZero]

Yes, but when you change how you do the strike, you often are 'changing the aspect of force'. The terminology used in CMA says that it is changing the force, because it crosses a gap in terminology etc.

[David Jamieson]

mass x speed = force

this is a physical "truth".

when variables are applied, such as glancing, pushing upon concussion, open hand, closed fist and so on is where one will find the elements that typify a "style".

some styles prefer palm strikes (Baguazhang /Pa kua Chang) almost exclusivly for the delivery of strikes.

some styles rarely strike and instead "redirect" the opponents energy as they attempt to strike. (Tai Chi, Pa Kua, etc)

some styles are about using the mass of the opponent and the tensile strength to create the force when the opponent is thrown down or into an object (Shaui Jiao, Fast wrestling, sumo, etc)

force will always be the equation at the top. the variables can be endless in the application of the equation. To write down all the techniques would bend your mind! :O

peace

[Starchaser107]

Way cool , another capoeirista...Angola too...heh heh (not hijacking post)

[NafAnal]

I think we're talking about different things. Changing he type of strike will always change the force delivered, but as kung lek said force is an absolute (however it's force = mass * acceleration :)). It matters little how you generate it. a punch is after all a punch. The damage that a force can do will depend on how and where it's delivered, the time of day, the seasons, whether a butterfly flaps it's winds in southern tanzania.... the damage a strike will do is far to difficult to predict because the human body is too complex. Butmy argument is that sheer force cannot be split into different subsections.

You can change the method of delivery but this is changing the force you actually apply.

The closest i've arguement i've heard for different "types" of force are those along the lines of spiralling force, a primitive example is twisting the fist in a drilling motion. However all this boils down to is another example of a different application of force. Upon contact, it is just force, granted the twisting upon contact may do something different to the human body but in the end it's just changing the way the force is applied and is not a new type of force, no matter what schools tell you....

[guohuen]

" For every action is a reaction." Sir Thomas Newton

[diego]

What is the differance from a cliche- karate external palm strike to the chest, and a internal palm to the chest?, is the external like poking, and the internal like flicking your fingers?.
I have a Few?:) more questions once this is answered!.

[David Jamieson]

There is an old martial arts saying:

4 ounces can deflect 1000 lbs.

If we take into account the original equation ( force = mass x acceleration) thanks for the correction btw...

and then the idea of generating the power to accelerate the mass of you body which is tying into the earth and bring energy up through you and out through you, then a relatively small person can at their maximum potential generate quite a bit of force.

especially relative to the ability to withstand force by the human body.

Internal pressure or the "natural" resistance of ones body is, according to NASA 15 psi throughout on average. That combined with the other factors of bone density and increased resistance to force through muscle contraction and increased internal to external pressure determines how much force a person can withstand vs how much force a person can deliver.

timing and alignment are key to this also.

peace

[HuangKaiVun]

In my experience, the traditional karate men who used techniques like this gained their power from the precise positioning of the finished palm strike position.

Look at books of old karate masters. They exhibit very solid postures and look almost like statues. The good ones can move quickly and almost like machines.

There is definitely an internal aspect to this kind of strike in karate. Remember that karate is descended either from Fukien White Crane kung fu or ngo cho kun, depending on your source of knowledge.


On the other hand, an "internal" palm can mean so many things. Taiji? Bagua? Xingyi? Wing Chun?

The difference I've seen between the Chinese palms and the karate ones is that karate focuses its attention at the conclusion of its moves whereas the traditional internal styles have more interest in the TRANSITIONS between moves.

For example, Yang Taijiquan has a sweeping buildup jing transition. It's not as interested in generating a rigid snap at the ends of statuesque moves as it is in utilizing the natural joint movements to produce a whole body strike.

[diego]

my reason for asking that, is what i have read from a few sources, they like a external palm uses the heel, and i internal uses the hollow of the palm, could you add to whats written, from the perspect, of the heel vs hollow?, and the differance between, cliche karate break of 8 boards, and the kuyucheung way of breaking from like a inch atop the top brick, oppossed to the classic KIAI jump and chop you see guys do on ice blocks with spacers:) , or the internal way of breaking the chosen brick, ie the bottom one or the middle?.
Can you add to this, Anybody else have input?, agian i'm basic, so im speaking from the general publics cliche perception of martial art:)
& Thanl You!!.

[diego]

stupid quicktype:D

[JusticeZero]

>You can change the method of delivery but this is changing the force you actually apply.

>The closest i've arguement i've heard for different "types" of force are those along the lines of spiralling force, a primitive example is twisting the fist in a drilling motion. However all this boils down to is another example of a different application of force. Upon contact, it is just force, granted the twisting upon contact may do something different to the human body but in the end it's just changing the way the force is applied and is not a new type of force, no matter what schools tell you....

This is exactly what we've been trying to tell you. You have it exactly right. however, the added concept that we have been trying to explain is that the MA use the terminoliogy of "spiralling force', 'sinking force' etc. because it was not created in a location or situation where it would be influenced by the terminology of proper physics. What you said is exactly right, and when this was being worked out, they called it different kinds of force to explain the different dynamics of application of force. They did not know or care that thousands of miles away and hundreds of years in the future, some geniuses with scales and math equations would define the physical nature of force differently than their working definitions, in such a way as to make their terminology confusing to you.

[diego]

so could you unconfuse me please, i have technical questions i want to ask other styles, but am having trouble wording my thoughts, so how many forces did the ancients recognize, From the context of what you just wrote?.

[HuangKaiVun]

From what I've seen, the good external or internal masters don't really care with what part of the body they hit you with.

What they care about is doing damage - be it grappling or striking or otherwise. Heel of palm, edge of palm, small of palm - not important.

Remember that breaking bricks is nothing but an DRILL. Just because a guy can break 10 bricks doesn't mean he'll even land one punch. So don't get overly swept up in this, diego.

Bruce Lee said it best in his Enter the Dragon movie: "boards don't hit back".


As far as striking exercises go, karate tends to toughen the fists up via callusing. I can always tell who a karateka is by examining the knuckles of his index and middle fingers - big bony calluses overly the knuckles.

Karateka also train the body to withstand hard hits by gradually building up tolerance to blows. Traditionally, karateka used dit da jow medicinal ointments to help the body recover from the training.

Kuo Yu Cheong's Northern Shaolin practitioners, however, do not have such calluses. Their method of training striking power involves the use of striking bags and medicinal ointment. Unlike karate, their method is more gradual and doesn't involve the buildup of calluses.

A Northern Shaolin Kuo lineage guy work the hands exclusively via their "Iron Palm" training and work their bodies via the "Iron Body". Both these methods fall under the "Small Golden Bell" training regimen of body toughening.


Ultimately, the actual method of body hardening is less important than the PROCESS of gradually toughening oneself up via a constant and well-balanced training regimen.

[guohuen]

Great responses Kai. When you combine the transition and the conclusion you really have something.

[diego]

im actually trying to break down the general forces, as justicezero wrote they used ideas like sinking power to breakdown thier styles force workings!.
Personnaly the style i study is a mix style, so we can look at my question from the perspective, if one man mastered karate" i read a good description of cliche karate, they strike creating power from thier shoulder and arm- and the style bieng compared with, gets its power from its hips!" and say sunlutangs three internals, how would he describe, the cliche i wrote wich i have read in many writings"external when doing a striaght palm to the solar plexus drives striaght, and hits with the heel, like a spear thrust, in a bow stance making a bang?. The internal same footwork and lines of attack, but the palm whips and hits with the heel, creating a percussion strike!.

now the brick demo, is what these two styles would do, one does the lame ice break with spacers, and a big jump and arm torque?, then with the spacers each block breaks from the wieght from the one above...and then thier is the internal one, wich i havent seen, so i am at a loss.
Would you guys, list your understanding of the many descriptions, chinese martial artists of old used to describe thier jings, Please:)

[HuangKaiVun]

I won't answer your question about breaking that block of ice, diego.

This isn't because it's a bad question or even because it isn't a great feat (it IS).

Rather, I have not concerned myself with the application of martial skills in a DEMONSTRATION format. That which I've learned from masters is combative in nature, and I've never been called on by a karate or kung fu master to break anything more than a half inch board (that was in Tae Kwon Do).

As far as Sun Lu Tang goes, remember that he made that "palm up" posture to collect CHI - not combat intent.

Sun's early work shows him holding San Ti with a palm down posture, fingers radiating outwards. Sun's daughter Sun Jian Yun stated that Sun changed the form from a combative nature to a health one.

Nor would I do a palm strike to the stomach. In all my training, I never met a sifu who taught me such a move. And even if he did, I wouldn't use it anyway.