Push hands

[Daniel Madar]

Heres a cool clip of Feng Zhiqiang

http://www2.sinowushu.com/taiji_04.ram

For those who don't know who Feng is, well....

[yutyeesam]

Hey, thanks much for letting us know about this clip.
THe thing I think is so amazing about GM Feng is that you can really tell he uses a lot of soft energy with his hard. It is so evident in his push hands. He throws people miles away with very little effort. This is amazing.
To me this is amazing, because some of the Chen push hands I've seen (before I saw GM Feng), looked more "external" because it seemed that there was more of the hard energy than the soft.

Thanks again for the clip.
123

[dedalus]

Great clip :p

[dz]

Great sound effects too!

[looking_up]

This clip comes from a documentary called "This is Kung Fu" which
features tons of wushu demos and some taiji too. It's a lot of fun
to watch.

[brassmonkey]

Cool clip he's got alot of power to my untrained eye it didnt look like any of his partners had any intention of anything but to be a dummy tho.

[brassmonkey]

Cool clip he's got alot of power to my untrained eye, it would be interesting to see what he does if his partners had any intention other then being a dummy.

[jon]

Hard or soft?
Fast or slow?
Fixed or free?
Step or no step?
Blended or shaken?

Just curious what people prefer, i like to mix methods but im partial to particulars like everyone else :)

Anyone want to share some push hands experiences?

Ive been easily beaten by several old Wu style masters which was a good learning experience. They where all quite different though and my own sifu is different again. Its made me a bit more interested in the different approches to Toi Shao and what people use it to develop.

Just looking for general examples on how Toi Shao is utalised in different peoples training.

[jon]

Hmm either no one likes to talk about push hands or I havent been very clear in my post.
Im not looking for anything to direct just hoping to start a general discussion on some of the different push hands practices.


Maybe just a simple question to start with.

Is fixed step push hands a limited training method?
In other words should fixed step be given up in favor of free form push hands when the level of skill is right?

Im a bit of a fan of fixed step although i certainly love playing freestyle.


Also does anyone else here incorporate a bit of light striking in there push hands?

[wiz cool c]

At my school we do alot of free style fixed step and moving push hands where there is a circle and you have to get the guy out of it or toss him to the floor. Sometimes we allow sweeps like in judo. Plus we have five push hand paterns.

[dezhen2001]

i dunno... depends what you are doing... to learn a principle things may be fixed and arranged, but after that usually anything goes :)

dawood

[bungda07]

Jon, Fixed push hands would be the starting point. Working on your ward-off and push, single hand, then double hand, of course with a partner that will give you good feedback on what they feel from your push, split, etc. Also, stationary two person Chan SSu Jing exercises to fine tune your push hands. You have to be willing "to invest in lost". Basically, don't let winning against somebody overcome your learning. Easy to say, but hard to do. Go to a push hands competition and you'll see. Moving push hands should come much later. You'll then start using your stepping from the forms combined with the techniques to deal with attacks in a flowing manner. Somebody uses roll-back, you feel the pull rotate the elbow down move into snake creeps down.
It can keep moving as long as both players are at same skill level.
Of course it could end with one reaction, but the flowing is important to develope. Later Chin Na's are used, strikes etc. My 2 cents.

V/r

Steve M.

[Snake/Crane]

Most people like to move quickly to free style and then don’t go back to practicing the patterns.
I like practicing the basics. I always go back to basic training.
A lot of time on stationary single and double hand patterns. If your feet move, you have lost your balance.
Training progression in fixed step with two-person routines helps build for free fixed step. Again you go back to these training exercises as part of you over all routines.
Fixed pattern circular stepping with double hand patterns help build for free form push.
For me it’s really the training exercises that make you skilled. I also believe that you can learn more from training with a equally skilled partner then from touching hands a few times with a great master.

Have a good practice

[jon]

Thanks for the advice people :D


I like the basic two handed fixed form push hands for training and i like the free form free stepping push hands for turning up the tempo and trying out a few tricks;)

Still as others have stated i tend to always refer back to fixed step when im trying to work out structure and flow refinements.

I also seem to be at a really annoying skill level.

I thought i was doing ok becouse i can beat most of my training partners and most of the other people i had pushed with havent been that much chop.
Then suddenly im confronted with some guys of a 'high' level who also enjoyed showing me what they could do.
Next thing i know my own sifu starts turning up the pace so as to keep me on my toes.
Its all been really fun and ive really enjoyed being exposed to the 'next' level but some things ive noticed are kinda odd.

There seems to be quite a difference in approch and mindset used in push hands.

Two of the masters i met whom both had the same teacher at different times had vastly different methods. One felt hard (although not overtly) and would be projecting nearly constantly so that pushing on him felt like trying to push against a hard coiled spring.
The other master with the same teacher was increadibly soft and seemed to just lead your power strait off into nothing before adding a little of his own and sending you sprawling to regain your balance.

[Snake/Crane]

My Sifu and his brother, who have trained together through childhood, have similar differences as you described between the two masters. They are just using different skills for which they feel better at. This could also change depending on who they push with. We are all different, applying the same principles, of which there are many. We also do light striking, more like touching the body. This usually happens when you break or loose contact. And as indicated in the post from Steve, this could open up opportunities for Chin Na

Mike

[bungda07]

Snake/Crane, I'm with you on the Basics. You have to go back and refine those techniques. You always see or feel something somebody did and it makes you go to the basics once again. Jon you talked about one master being hard and one soft. The exercise that always helped with this was pressing against somebody and building up the energy(pulsing) to match your partner. You both start slowly building up the energy from floor through forearms. When they let off, you also let off. It has to be a gentle release of the pulsing or pressing at each other. Sometimes when it was focused just right it was pressing bone on bone(but centered). This always helped me learn to match softness and hardness. Then take this to moving.

V/r

Steve Manning

[jon]

Thanks for the tips people :D

[HuangKaiVun]

We do FREE push hands.

That includes groundfighting and multiple opponents.

In America, that's what one has to be prepared for.

[dezhen2001]

can u not keep your frothing at the mouth and challenging to one thread mate? :rolleyes:

dawood

[HuangKaiVun]

Who said I was challenging anyone here, bub?

Good martial artists know when to accept things at face value.

[dezhen2001]

In America, that's what one has to be prepared for.
was obviously a dig at Jon coz he is from australia and you teaching in America is oh so tough etc. :rolleyes:

dawood

[Golden Arms]

HKV, I used to think you of you as someone that trained hard and tried to make all facets of his martial art work. You seemed like a realist and a traditionalist, which was cool. The more you have posted lately though, the more you keep putting a very self centered tone to your stuff, and acting like you are tough...One thing I think most higher level martial artists have taught their students is some version of the saying "dont ever understimate anyone" or even "every dog has his day". Heck..even a very old Choy Lai Fut master told his students recently "dont ever underestimate someone that does Tai Chi, most of them cant use it to fight, but some of them are some of the most dangerous people you will ever meet, and you would never know until you crossed hands with one of them". Soooo...why dont you tone it down and show respect for others, or are you really so convinced that you and EVEN YOUR STUDENTS could take anyone they are going to run into anywhere at anytime? I dont get it.

[jon]

"We do FREE push hands."
* So there is no fixed step push hands taught in your school?
If not how do you get your students to a level to understand free push hands?

"That includes groundfighting and multiple opponents."
* Very interesting, how exactly do you encorporate multiple opponents into push hands considering that staying in contact with your partner is a fundamental part of the excercise?
I would also be curious how exactly you encorporate groundfighting into push hands. To me they would seem like two totaly different things. We wrestle in my school but we dont 'push hands' on the ground?

"In America, that's what one has to be prepared for."
* I dont think we are talking about what you need to prepare for on the street. I also dont really care for your elitist attitude and obvious misunderstanding of the subject matter.
Perhaps you could keep your racism and frantic posturing to yourself?

[Laughing Cow]

Me like HKV the more he posts the more it becomes obvious that he knows nothing.

"Free push hands, groundfighting and multiple opponents"

OMG :rolleyes:

HKV.

Next time before you try to troll us to atleast a weenie bit of research into the styles and correct terminology before you try to pass yourself as someone skilled and knowledgeable.

Seeya.

[joedoe]

LOL :D

I do push hands using punching bags. Sometimes even multiple punching bags. And I use as much tension as I can :D

[chen zhen]

Freestyle push-hands with foot-sweeps is a cool training-method. I did sum yesterday with an old student from my old Tai Chi class. I recommend it.
(in reality it started as ordinary fixed PH, but it grew more intense, and became freestyle, lol;))

[HuangKaiVun]

Laughing Cow, you've GOT to meet us.

You do kung fu. Test our Tai Chi in a combat situation.

Need contact info? Send friends over if you have any out here.


Golden Arms, I come out of an authentic Neijiagong tradition.

In our tradition, people are welcome to try hands. Clearly you haven't trained this way because you automatically assumed that it had to be unfriendly. Neither me nor my teachers were afraid of showing others what we had in a match, friendly or otherwise.

The way it works in old Chinese kung fu traditions is that if somebody wants to talk smack about somebody else, he's got to walk the talk. The Taiwanese say "Kong buh loy yeung", which means "Talk doesn't mean squat".

So come one, come all. My door is an open one, try the hands of myself or my students. Don't be afraid, we don't bite.

[Golden Arms]

HKV, nah..its not like that at all..My school even had open nights for anyone to come in and try our students one on one..and we still take any walk in challenges, but we dont go LOOKING for fights..why bother? If we trained any more traditionally, we would have to move back to Toisan. And if you think that you are unhurtable because of iron jacket, or golden bell practice, then why dont you have any respect for the techniques designed to break them? To each their own.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Laughing Cow, you've GOT to meet us.

You do kung fu. Test our Tai Chi in a combat situation.

Need contact info? Send friends over if you have any out here.

Naah, I give it a skip.

What you described is more like San Shou than Tui Shou. ;)
As a matter of fact I am studying T'ai Ji at the moment.

How many hours a day do your students spend in Zhang Zhuang?
Most traditional kwoons ask for atleast 1hr every day for 2~3yrs.

How much time is spend on San Chu Jin?

Don't need contact info, you posted your details plenty enough.
If I get to over to the states and your region I might check your Kwoon out.

Seeya.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yes, we do things a bit differently Laughing Cow.

We do what we feel is enough to make us into competent streetfighters. It probably doesn't match up with what you have been taught, but that doesn't preclude it from working either.

So yes, do come by. Test our Tai Chi in a combat situation against us. You've trained enough to know that it DEFINITELY won't be violent (or so I'm led to believe). If we have something to learn from you, we'd love to see.

As long as you show up and say "hello", we can discuss this in person via words and hands.


Once again Golden Arms, you misunderstand me.

I have GREAT respect for the techniques that break Golden Bell and other Iron Shirt techniques. We train them day in and day out, for your information.

I've been dissed all my life, and the only thing that stops that is an all-out call to arms. I've fought my share of battles, so I know which fights to do and which fights to avoid.

Like it or not, standing up to bullies (especially when you're a little Chinese guy like me) is the only way to get them off you. The more you back off, the more they ATTACK.

And that's what's been happening here.

[Laughing Cow]

HKV.

Sorry, too much water between you and me to pop in for a visit.

I am not doubting that you and your guys can fight, OTOH, I have some questions in my mind how you can produce competent fighters in TJQ in such a short time and with what seems to me a lack of TJQ training methods or required times to develop the essentials of TJQ.

Cheers.

[yenhoi]

Jon: I have just begun push hands training. It is structured completly right now. Its a simple sequence of ward off, rollback, press, push.... repeat.. Or something like that. Maybe an extra ward off orwhatnot.

[dezhen2001]

i think sensitivity training is excellent and made me re-think how to apply the skill i know a lot :)

dawood

[bamboo_ leaf]

If you live in San Jose CA, and are interested in push hands, or know push hands you are welcomed to a small practice group that gets together on Saturday mornings.

The goal of the group is to explore, examine and refine taiji principles and practice though the medium of push hands.

For more info e-mail or pm. ;)

[bamboo_ leaf]

Any one interested in some push hand practice and live in the San Jose area. Pm or email maybe we can set something up, sat_day mornings.

david

[bamboo_ leaf]

For those interested in push hands practice, I have some time in the mornings during the week. If your in the SF area close to golden gate park pm or e-mail.

david

[Wisdom]

Hi

I have a question concerning Push Hands.

One of my Si Fu taught me this method of push hands, I do believe it has Come from the Yang family style. He told me it was the old method. I could understand this as he trained in the Small cicle Yang. How ever he also trained in Song Shanxi Xing Yi and Chinese wrestling. So I not sure if it is something he added himself or maybe was something unique to his family as all the generations I do believe were Tai Chi, & Xing Yi pratictioners, as I have never come across this method before or since, It leaves a big question mark above my head.

The method is the same as the normal push hands except I can only but decribe it as earth range (Close). when learning the feet are parallel when your opponent trys to take you to a float position you streach the body right up to heaven and twist useing maximun waist rotation to hold centre, which creates full spiral through the body, then come back to the press etc. This method in looks can be desribed as played on a vertical plan rather than a horizontal.

As this method is so close it really does create powerful central energy to be able to play close range weapons. What I found was that you create powerful dan tien energy overwise you can't do this. So when learning you really ach in the guts this is what he refered to as visible power then after years of practice the visible become invisible the power stays but the movment become natural (refined)

he said this was the old method that was extremally rare. As it really does create center energetics. I have no problem practicing this method as I have achieved the results and found the power generation incredably.

However I was wondering if any one has any info on this or has even seen or heard of this method before because like I said i haven't. I would love to here about Any info at all. I would really appretiate it and thanks for your time.

[scotty1]

We have done a (freestyle) push hands drill which differs from the normal 'bow/arrow stance facing each other' drill in that you're stood in a wu wei? stance (feet parallell, shoulder width), which is possibly a bit more representative of the stance you might be stood in when utilising your push hand skills in a real situation.

Hope that makes sense, just got back form our extended lunch / christmas p!ss up session. :D

[TCguy]

This is my first post here. i am relatively new to the chinese arts ( bb in tkd ) and i

am very intested in taiji especially push hands. these techniques seemed

streetworthy and looked like something i could add to my arsenal. also i know i

really should try to find an instructor somewhere but there seem to be none in my

area so does anyone think it is possible to get the basics and learn enough to be

proficient at pushing through videos and books?

thanx.
alec

[scholar]

Well, you at least need a training partner! :cool:

Seriously, you have to have someone who knows pushing hands well teach you. there is just too much going on to reproduce it on your own. I don't believe it's possible.

[TCguy]

the training partner i can get but i mean will i have to find a school tha teaches it

to learn?

[scholar]

Yes, you will absolutely need a teacher.

Try:

www.yangfamilytaichi.com

www.wustyle.com

There are others, too, but these guys are both pretty good.

[Buddy]

Also try Mike Sigman's Internal Strength videos.

[scholar]

I'd agree with 99% of the above. Pushing hands is a style of training that involves many, many techniques. It is vital to all the aspects of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Without it, one cannot benefit fully from T'ai Chi's health, meditation or martial potential.

The 1% that I can't agree with (I plead ignorance!) is that I don't know William C.C. Chen well enough to comment. I've heard of him, that's all. If a school is incorporating any other style into their T'ai Chi curriculum, then I'd say that is a bad sign, however.

Pushing hands is a huge subject, very complicated. If you have a full pushing hands schedule you don't have time to study Western boxing! We have 12 different styles of pushing hands at our school, 8 choreographed patterns and 4 different freestyles. Eventually they lead to freestyle sparring (which includes wrestling). Along with the pushing hands we have two person and then multiple opponent application drills, empty hand and weapon. This is at least 10 years worth of work just to cover the basics!

As mentioned by delibandit above, many schools have lost such a thorough syllabus, teaching only one or two styles of pushing hands, if they teach any at all, and those one or two styles are uninformed by the rest of the pushing hands agenda and thereby incomplete even for what they are supposed to do.

[GeneChing]

READ Advanced Taiji Push Hands: Da LeBy Jie Gu, Li Weiqian, and Zhou Yudong in our SUMMER 2018 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1420).

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/2684_KFM2018-Summer-Cover.jpg

[GeneChing]

The Tiger Claw Push Hands Championship (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/info/tournament/Push-Hands.html) returns to the 2019 Tiger Claw Elite Championships, May 18-19, San Jose, CA

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/5378_IWSD-Push-Hands-Championship-Promo_Large.jpg

THREADS
2019 Tiger Claw Elite Championships & KUNG FU TAI CHI DAY - May 18-19, San Jose CA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71001-2019-Tiger-Claw-Elite-Championships-amp-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-DAY-May-18-19-San-Jose-CA)
Push hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)

[GeneChing]

I just posted 34 more pix in Tiger Claw Elite KungFuMagazine.com Championship 2019. Photos by Patrick Lugo (https://www.facebook.com/pg/Kung-Fu-Tai-Chi-Magazine-135964689362/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10157665827344363)

These are all of the Push Hands competition.

THREADS
2019 Tiger Claw Elite Championships & KUNG FU TAI CHI DAY - May 18-19, San Jose CA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71001-2019-Tiger-Claw-Elite-Championships-amp-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-DAY-May-18-19-San-Jose-CA)
Push hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)

https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61503961_10157671918019363_3215628382289002496_o.j pg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQnx0GtpEkU2XleT6IoIh207V4H2BBf2Uk03EPCVAOP XyLHOjiZ9NAcAaMUQ8N611y0&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=ae7a8fd312dc6614ee3a2e84369f3262&oe=5D5E32C9

[GeneChing]

PUSH HANDS CHAMPIONS (https://www.tigerclawelite.com/tiger-claw-elite-champions/)
Adults: Restricted-Step Push Hands
<145 lbs. Kuang, Jianhui
145-155 lbs. Yu, Junxuan
156-170 lbs. Relator, Anthony
171-185 lbs. Geddes, Henry
186–205 lbs. Walstrum, James
206-225 lbs. Peterson, Alexander

Adults: Moving Push Hands
<145 lbs. Kuang, Jianhui
145-155 lbs. Wen, Jiajum
156-170 lbs. Relator, Anthony
171-185 lbs. Pu, Haiting
186–205 lbs. Walstrum, James
206-225 lbs. Salas, Eric

Youths Match Winners: Bridgewater, Dean – Chung, Leo – Rolleston, Alex – Scott, Ahana – Andersson, Charlotte – Mcdade, Sophie – Maya Ye, – Thach, Nathan – Phommachakr, Nolan – Vera, Kye – Panguluri, Tanmay – Xu, lvan – Algubelli, Parthiv – Solpon, Kadin



These are the last results from TCEC 2019. Congratulations to all our winners!

THREADS
2019 Tiger Claw Elite Championships & KUNG FU TAI CHI DAY - May 18-19, San Jose CA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71001-2019-Tiger-Claw-Elite-Championships-amp-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-DAY-May-18-19-San-Jose-CA)
Push hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ORMmgh_oIs

THREADS
TCEC 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71001-2019-Tiger-Claw-Elite-Championships-amp-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-DAY-May-18-19-San-Jose-CA)
Push hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)
Summer 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71297-Summer-2019)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3hVOX9bY04

THREADS
WINTER 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71573-Winter-2020)
Push hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)

[GeneChing]

Immersing in Tai Chi Push Hands
By Jeff Lin with Zhao Xiaohu

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/9183_202001_Winter.jpg

WINTER 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1518)

[GeneChing]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQlM9ySUEAE6nM3?format=jpg&name=900x900

THREADS
Winter 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71573-Winter-2020)
Push Hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)

Next up SPRING 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020).

[GeneChing]

Since Kung Fu Tai Chi folded (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1545), I've been doing some work for YMAA. Here's my first feature there: Push Hands: Tai Chi with Friends (https://ymaa.com/articles/2021/01/push-hands-tai-chi-with-friends)

https://ymaa.com/sites/default/files/images/article/articles-20201231-push-hands-tai-chi-with-friends.jpg

[GeneChing]

Here's another feature I wrote for YMAA: Working Together: A Powerful Writing Team
(https://ymaa.com/articles/2021/01/working-together-a-powerful-writing-team)

https://ymaa.com/sites/default/files/images/article/articles-20210111-working-together-a-poweful-writing-team.jpg

Threads
Push-hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)
Jwing-Ming-Yang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?9982-Jwing-Ming-Yang)

[GeneChing]

Enter to win Tai Chi Push Hands Autographed by David Grantham and Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/tai-chi-push-hands.php)
Contest ends 2/4/2021.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/9461_Tai-Chi-Push-Hands-Sweepstakes_Large.jpg

Threads
Push-hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)
Jwing-Ming-Yang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?9982-Jwing-Ming-Yang)
Tai Chi Push Hands Autographed by David Grantham and Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71974-Tai-Chi-Push-Hands-by-David-Grantham-and-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming)

[GeneChing]

See our WINNERS-Tai-Chi-Push-Hands-Autographed-by-David-Grantham-and-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71984-WINNERS-Tai-Chi-Push-Hands-Autographed-by-David-Grantham-and-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming) thread.

Push-hands (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?11935-Push-hands)
Jwing-Ming-Yang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?9982-Jwing-Ming-Yang)
Tai Chi Push Hands Autographed by David Grantham and Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71974-Tai-Chi-Push-Hands-by-David-Grantham-and-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming)

[GeneChing]

Why Practice Push Hands? READ Push Hands Thoughts (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1623) by Alan Ludmer

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/1435_Push-Hands-Thoughts_Lead.jpg

[wuxiaman]

Push hands is one of the hardest things I ever did in my martial arts experience! It's very hard to avoid exerting a lot of energy, especially when I'm just so used to doing so. :(