fraudulent schools

[begby]

I previously posted this on the Southern Forum...

Preface: I’m writing this not out of malice, but to let other KF practitioners know to not get caught up in something that happened to me in the past. BTW, I’ve been reading this board for years, but haven’t posted on it…

Fraudulent Schools:
As many of you are aware, there are many schools in existence that claim
to teach traditional, effective, real-deal, authentic kung fu, by qualified, well-trained, black sash instructors.

To many people who are looking for a good school, and who are not familiar with martial arts in general, these words are good selling points. But in some cases, they are just that...words...used as marketing traps to deceive the masses.

I know of one school in particular. We’ll leave names out for now - a school that I attended for 2 years. The overall vibe seems very nice when you walk in. Nice music playing, incense burning in front of the Sun Toi, class lined-up and working in unison, mirrors everywhere, weapons racks lining the walls. It all paints a very good picture of what a kung fu school should look like - to someone who doesn’t know any better.

But once someone starts asking questions here, things turn sour. No information is given on the school’s lineage. When I asked if there were any extra-curricular reading material I could use as research to learn more about my art, I was told to only learn what the sifu told you…which is fine, but he never told anyone anything. As a matter of fact, asking questions about ANYTHING was frowned upon.

For a while I thought the sifu there was the real deal (although he had been dealt a bad rep in most kung fu circles), but he is in fact quite mediocre. Over the course of an 8 month period that I spent deciding whether or not I would remain loyal to him and continue training there, I realized that he has never shown us anything, never explained his stance on his being publicly criticized, never told us of our kung fu roots. He also used all of his students and when they were of no more use to him – he’d treat them like unwanted children.

Forms would constantly change. Again we were given no concrete explanation of where they came from. Later we would find out they were invented by he and his teacher. This is a good segue into costs…

Costs: When one initially starts here, they are charged roughly $80 for two classes per week…which is a **** good price for NYC. But as students further their “training”, they are charged an extra monthly fee for each form learned, plus an additional first time fee (hung bao) for the classes. For example:
Butterfly Swords: $200 to get into the class (one time fee)
$100 for the weapons (when one can get their own for $50)
$80/month for this class alone (on top of the regular $80 monthly tuition)
And this is only for ONE extra class! If you want to take ANY other weapons, or ANY other open hand forms (other than the 3 that are taught regularly), the same, if not larger, fees will pile on top if these.
One month, I looked at the schedule of classes he wanted me to take, and with these fees taken into account, the costs were well over $900. Many people there think their loyalty and perserverance will pay off, so they actually pay these amounts.

Need I say more?

$900/month for imitation Wu Shu (although that’s not what it was called) with no background history given, no questions answered, no proof of the teacher’s validity, and no explanation for any of his actions. How can someone of any moral standing look you in the eye and rob you of all that money and time?

Absolute novices were given permission to take advanced weapons classes. Why? Because it brought in more money. Here you are standing next to some of the most uncoordinated and inexperienced students – while they’re swinging Kwan Do in the midst of an overcrowded gwoon!!! Unbelievable.

It took a long time for me to research the validity of this school and a long time to make sure I was correct in my conclusions.
After visiting many legitimate schools and now attending one for some time, I’ve come to learn many things: His kung fu is not legitimate. His instructors lack any and all credibility as competent martial arts instructors; he is blatantly deceiving his students. Worse, he is robbing them of not only of their hard earned money, but also, and more importantly, of their irreplaceable time.

For those of you familiar with kung fu politics, you could probably guess which school/sifu I speak of. But for those who don’t, if you end up at a school that resembles the above mentioned, get out immediately.

There are many good schools in NYC. Take your time, see all that is out there, and ASK QUESTIONS.

[ged]

good thing to hear you were smart enough to research and get out of that.
im pretty sure my southern kung fu school is the real deal... hard to be 100 percent sure, because i have no experience previous to this, and other people have also been deceived... but i think it is.

anyway, interesting post. thanks.

[red5angel]

Good post Begby, it just goes to show, always do your research beforehand people, find out about the art and the instructors!!!!

[shaolinboxer]

You should openly state which school this is. Otherwise you risk ruining the reputation of another school.

What's to be afraid of?

[red5angel]

Speaking of fraudulant schools! A while back someone posted alink to a page that discussed the legal issues that "Iron" KIm and his old school went through, does anyone know what tha link was?!

[begby]

I'm not posting the name mainly for legal reasons.
This school has utilized lawyers in the past (hint hint). Ya know? - Defamation.

Shaolin Boxer: I don't think I run the risk of ruining another schools rep. If a school truly is legit and the students there are 100% sure that the style/teacher/school is legit, then no one needs to worry.
But like I said above..........the real reason is legal.

[Royal Dragon]

Hi, That was the TMAN martial arts forum. Chung Moo took the forum over, and mass spammed it over and over and over again, until the host discontinued the service.

As a memeber of that forum for years, I decided to host the conversations at royaldragon.4dw.com on my Dungeon forum after TMAN went down.

I also have a Kung Fu forumwhere the OYD/CMQ topc is baned if you wish to discuss legit Kung Fu topics.

Oh, by the way, begby, that school in NY sounds like a Chung moo Quan (also known as Oom Yung Doe) school, or one that broke away or is hideing thier identity. It may not be, but the MO is too similar in my humble opinion.

What is the name of the school?

[jon]

I fear i may have been defrauded also...
You see ive been a student of a couple of kung fu systems and lately i study both Bagua and Tai Chi.
You see my problem is simple, dispite dilligent effort in seeking out a teacher and trying my hardest to do everything im told...
I have not been taught one chi blast or 'death touch' strike yet:rolleyes:

Im cut... I wanna see and learn some of that Matrix stuff but you think either of my sifu teach that noooooooooooooooooooo.
Well maybe a tiny bit death touch:p

[Din Gao]

Begby,

It is good to see that you registered (finally). I don't think you have to worry about any legal ramifications. All you are doing is posting your opinions.

I know what school you are talking about (Bo Law) and hold much the same opinion you do having formerly been a student there myself.

I hold no animosity towards them but I do not feel that what is being taught there is legitimate either. I was there even longer then you, o I guess I mis-spent even more time then you did. Not to say it was a waste, as it got my lazy @$$ back into shape but my time could have been spent better elsewhere.

In the past, postings have been made here regarding BL and FJP and I don't want to rehash that as I have found a true Sifu (IMHO) and moved on.

The moral of the story I guess is that you need to do your homework and ask questions. If they don't, can't or are unwilling to answer that should throw up a flag.

[Royal Dragon]

That runs a school near the MGM studios that can and does teach both Matrix AND Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon skills. He's VERY expensive, and will require you to go through a 5 year course in fundementals to prepare you for those advanced skills, also very expensive. BUT, if you want the best you know it's going to cost ya.

Here's an example of one of his senior studets demonstraiting the fame Cliff jump.

www.artbell.com/mediafiles/olympic.mpg

It takes years of training to perform this skill and walk away from it un harmed. But this skill and many others can be yours if you are willing to pay enough, and work hard.

Royal Dragon

[Din Gao]

LOL!

That is disturbing yet oddly interesting.

I would settle for learning how to put my arm through the chest cavity of another ala Lo Meng in Kid with the Golden Arm.

BTW, OT - there is a posibility of a Shaw brothers convention coming to NYC with Gordon Liu, Philip Kwok, Lo Meng among others. I'll try to find the link. But I digress.

[dezhen2001]

OMG :eek: i didn't expect the guy to hit the ground! I thought it was cliff diving :D But it didn't show you him afterwards... I'm sure Jackie Chan could probably do that as well, the no. of times he's fallen from things :D

david

[isol8d]

What does the word "Chung" mean?

There is a Chung Moo Doe, 8 Arts Taught as 1!!!! school around the corner from my school, and I saw that they had started a Tai Chi class. I told my sifu, and he laughed and said they were teaching "Tai Chi Chung".

Grand Ultimate Chung?

[Royal Dragon]

Thier mood at the moment.
The Korean translation is True, Original or Genuine, but they use it to mean mind, palm strike or it's tacked on to the name of most of thier forms.

I have a Chinese translation meaning "Empty" as well, so who knows.

Tai Chi Chung is NOt real Taji, it's some thing they made up in the 80's to help lure more victums into thier little cult.

They are not a real martial arts school, but the front for a dangerous & distructive cult.

Any relevant info on them can be found on the follwing cult awareness site http://www.freedomofmind.com/

specifically on page
http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/chung/chung.asp

[Ray Pina]

Why cry over watered down spilled milk? Depending on one's standards, level, pretty much any school can be looked at as complete crap. I am so rarely impressed with MA out there, so much so -- as much as I love it -- I hate almost to be associated with it.

I can't call what I do kung fu or martial arts, if all that other stuff claims that title.

Better to spend more time looking for cow, then you know you're getting it pure.

[Din Gao]

Good point.

The benefit of being in NYC is that it is there. You just have to turn over a few stones to find it. Take your time and do the research. Makes it all worthwhile I guess.

Funny thing was that there was a really good Sifu right around the corner from that school (literally).

[dezhen2001]

that linked article was really freaky man! Never knew sheit was as bad as that over in the US! :eek: No wonder some ppl were so freaked out before...

david

[Hai_To]

There is lesson to be learned in all of this. Do your homework. Don't just join a school because the uniforms look pretty or the school is nice or the teacher looks really cool. Watch a class, take a trial class and ask questions. Any legitimate school would be more than willing to answer any of your questions.

As for Bo Law (my two cents worth), Paul Koh was a very good Hung Gar practitioner and teacher back in the mid to late 90's. Unfortunately, somewhere along the road he lost his way. He decided to no longer teach Hung Gar. He now teaches a mixture of Fu Jow Pai, 5 Animals, Shaolin (Lohan & Tong Bei) and Mantis. Its a shame really. Sometimes things are sacrificed on the altar of expedience.

[Din Gao]

Hai_To,

Did you study there as well? It would appear that there are more refugees here then I thought.

That is what killed me. I could see that the man had skill (IMO) but it just didn't appear to be what was taught. Maybe it was the inability to grasp the material, though I doubt it.

In my time there, I "learned" something like 25 - 30 forms in 2+ years. That is more then the entire curriculum of my new school where I'll spend months on the basics before ever learning a form (whcih is fine with me). Students were constantly pushed to learn more and more without really developing an understanding of the material they were being taught.

Belts and sashes, though supposedly meaningless, were openly promoted. It basically created a bad atmosphere. Senior students barely able to sit in a horse stance or transfer between stances.:mad:

Oh well, I said I wouldn't fall into this but there I go... (A lack of self-restraint)

[Ray Pina]

Din Goa, it took me nearly a year to get hooked up with my master. His name kept coming up over and over, but it took me loosing to one of his students to buy into the internal -- that there was nothing soft about that defeat, probbably the most valuable in my life.

I found another one of his students through a friend. He wouldn't take me right off the bat, had to take him out to eat a few times so he could get to know me.

But I wasn't happy with that, so I looked on my own too. Up and down Chinatown. Asking everyone and everyhwere. Even the people at BLT that I'm kind of cool with didn't help, sent me to his old school.

Finally my friend (now) came through. Turns out my teacher is mad cool and open and would have taken me right off the bad. He's only turned a few away for being too stupid and arogant.

If you're truly interested, let me know. I'll bring you buy. Just keep an open mind. Sometimes material is kept very basic when guests are around. What we do is not complex. A few core shapes, movements ideas. So we do not let the cat out of the bad so easily.

Honestly, the guy who beat me showed me some Hsing-I shielding (tiger hands) and it instantly changed my fighting before even seeing my master. Just getting that little clue -- wow.

[Ray Pina]

PS, I'll ad this, and take it for what its worth:

This man is the best I've ever seen. Ever! I started MA when I was 4. Seen a lot. I was hitting tournaments back in the day of, what's his name, Don Nagel, and all those old timers. Been up and down the coast. When my family vacationed, we checked ahead in advance to find a school that I could train at while away.

That was my first intro to phony balony kung fu in Fla. Real bad.

Anyway, now I'm 28. I've studied Hung Gar, Wing Chun, S. Mantis and mostly Issin-Ryu (my entire childhhod upt to HS and college).

My master, at 60, will put the gloves on and beat ya senseless. With technique. He's not big, he's just really good.

He's an article by Rober Chu talking about him back in the day -- and he has inherited that pole system being spoken about: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chusauli/articles_feilungfumun.shtml

[Hai_To]

Din Gao,

Yes, I did attend Bo Law for a while. I left at the beginning of this year. I will give them credit, I got back into shape and my flexibility is much better than it has been in a long time. However, you are right, the atmosphere there was not very conducive to learning. There was definitely a "hurry up, you're falling behind" mentality. Too much material too fast is a problem. You were never given any time to digest anything.

Now with the mixture of styles, its was very difficult to learn anything. If there was a sequence of learning, that would be fine (though personnally I found the sheer volume of material to be questionable). For example, if you were to learn 5 Animals and then move on to Fu Jow Pai that would make sense. Unfortunately, you are learning Shaolin, 5 Animals, Mantis and Fu Jow Pai (along with weapons) concurrently.

On a personal level, I like Paul. He always treated me very well. As a Sifu, there is a lot left to be desired. Am I bitter about my time there? I don't think so (at least not consciously). Would I recommend the school to somebody? I'd have to say no.

I'll treat it as a learning experience. In any event, I'm much happier in my new school.

[Din Gao]

Hai_To,

I will PM you.

Evolution Fist,

Thank you for the offer. I really appreciate it. I heard very good things about your Sifu. I may take you up on that offer when my schedule opens up. Right now it is kind of crazy.

[Hai_To]

Din_Gao,

I didn't realize there were more of us out there. We should compare war stories.

EvolutionFist,

In my quest for a new school, I looked at Mr. Chan. All I can say is "wow". He may be 60, but he certainly doesn't look it. He is also one of the most friendly and engaging people I've ever met. Plus he is highly skilled. He is what a Sifu should be.

[108kuen]

Great article you linked......your sifu sounds like quite a man.

[Ray Pina]

I consider it a true God send to be training with him.

I've glipmsed some of his pole and sword work -- WOW! Can't wait to get back to that. Right now we are 100% focused on the hand to hand. Theory, concepts, principles and applying them. Doing some boxing as of late.

I don't know about my training brothers, but I'm working to bring E-chuan out there. Don't want to do it till I'm reday. You've seen him, pretty tall shoes to fiill. But this is too important to end there, it has to continue. Sometimes I question why all this work. But I love it, and if I who love it doesn't do it, who will. In the end its a joy and privelage.

He's the best teacher I ever had no question about it. I feel funny writing it though because everybody should feel that way about their teacher.

[begby]

I visited SiFu Chan's school as well with a friend who was looking for a new school.
Although, I'm quite happy at my new school, I have to say...he's a great guy. He actually sat there and spoke to us for about an hour before his class started.(not many people would do that) At bo law, one had to schedule an appointment to ask the sifu the simplest of questions
He compared different fighting concepts, strategies, etc etc. He really knows what he is talking about. On some of the techniques he demonstrated on me, I could really feel his internal power. I was definitely impressed.

The school was like 20 degrees though! Freezing!

[begby]

BTW DinGao/Hai To...Bo Law was the school I was talking about in my initial post.

To all in the greater NY area...avoid it like the plague.
If you're only goal is to get in shape, then it may be OK...just be on the lookout for projectile weapons accidentally flying out of beginners' hands!

[Hai_To]

LOL!

Just to make things clear. Its not like Bo Law is the 7th Circle of Hell. It has become a glorified health club (a very expensive health club). Similar to those "new age" Tai Chi schools that don't worry about any martial applications. It was good once. Perhaps it can be good again. Though Paul will have to do some soul searching before that happens.

[Din Gao]

From what I understand, quite a few people have left and mostly for the same reasons. I know of six that you may be familiar with. Varying levels of committment and time spent.

You always have a high level of turnover among the newbies at any school but these are supposedly the more senior people. People who had skill and were frustrated with an environment that deteriorated before their eyes. Most have gone on to good schools. Others are just beginning to search.

[begby]

The seniors leave b/c once he milks them for all the resources they can provide him, he treats them like dirt.
Student totally get used over there. It's unreal.
The only seniors who remain there are the ones that do secretarial work for the school, or work on the website/advertising.
If there are any other seniors still there, it's because they don't care if what they are learning is valid, or becuase they choose not to ask questions and devote themselves blindly.

[Hai_To]

Din Gao & Begby,

I came across an interesting article on Cyberkwoon recently. You both may find this interesting.

How to spot a Fake Master (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/article.php?sid=250&mode=thre)

Obviously not all of it applies to Paul, but some of the points strike close to home. I doubt all of those points apply to anyone. From my recollection, at least 3 or 4 of them apply to Paul. Especially the money one. ;)

[David Jamieson]

A small word from an even smaller and insignificant speck such as I am when held to the light of what kung fu is.

Take the higher ground when the rain falls. Look back at your life and know that you have learned something through the living of it.

Be fit and be happy with yourself as you are.
Be good to each other and yourself.
Take care of others when the opportunity to do so arises. Let those who would see you fall, fall away themselves, away from influencing or affecting your life and understand that knowledge cannot be given, it comes from within. Stimulation and information are given, the knowledge is from you when you absorb what has been taught. And when you seek to build upon it.

Milk can be sweet, it can also sour, but it comes from the same animal.

Point of this is, the more you fan the flames of doubt, the higher the fire burns. It will consume you and the only one to face loss is yourself.

Next point is, regardless of what you may feel or think, this forum is not the place to bash or name call. if you know someone seeking to learn, then direct them. There is no consequence, good or bad to placing a post on an internet forum in anonimity defaming another practitioner be s/he good or bad.

peace

[Royal Dragon]

Is this guy an out and out fraud, or just a poor teacher?

Is there a difference? I think so as one is intnet on seperating you from your $$, and the other just needs to improve his teaching skills.

[Zapf Dingbat]

Wow I was really really surprised at the cost and schedule thing. Shifu wants everyone to come in as often as possible, and at the least 3 days a week.

Charging extra for teaching weapons? It's like he works on commision or something!

[KC Elbows]

Very good post. For the most part, I agree. At the same time, I strongly believe that some schools represent a decidedly negative side of things, even while at the same time having some fine people in them. As a former member of such a school, and having seen both the positive and negative side of that school, normally, my response would be like yours, just move on with my life and make a good person of myself.

However, by avidly taking part in a school, one contributes money to that school's activities. By being a competent and driven student, one contibutes an air of legitimacy to the school as a martial one. By being enthusiastic, one attracts others to join in. In the case of the school I attended, these things were all from good intents, yet all contributed to some of the worst behavior possible. Taxes went unpaid, people were threatened(even in front of news cameras by the organization's lawyers), any who left were ostracized and looked upon as less than those who still participated, and this continues today. Because I was once in this school and no longer am, I am looked upon as a mindless person by people still in the style, some of whom I convinced to join in the first place.

Is there a point at which your responsibility grows from just improving yourself, to fixing the results of your past actions? I admit, I tend to think that its important to self actualize first, but I don't think that's the end of the individual's responsibility. Eventually, I think its important to affect things around you in a positive way, and even take a stance against what you feel is wrong.

Anyway, I'm curious of your opinion of this, as you have a much cooler head than I.

[scotty1]

"With keeping members from anti-cult information, it really didn't come out about what Chung Moo really was until a couple of years after I'd left"

All the way through that CMD article that was linked to, and the above quote was taken from, I'm thinking to myself "How could anybody lack enough common sense to put up with all that crap?"

Beatings?
Isolation?
No individual thought?
Multiple jobs to pay for instruction? Personal decision, fine, ENCOURAGED? Uh oh, alarm bells....
Ratting out your friends?

Sounds more like the bloody Cultural Revolution than a kwoon...

Apologies if I am out of line in saying this I have next to no sympathy for anybody that is weak enough to put up with that kind of ****. :rolleyes:

[Tainan Mantis]

I would think that a phony teacher would be challenged, especially in NYC.

Begby,
Genuine teachers get challanged, why not the guy you are talking about?

[Din Gao]

He was challenged. It is a long story and has much to do with Fu Jow Pai - Wai Hong & Hui Cambrelen. I don't lend much credence to the legitimacy of their argument. It is based on semantics IMO. If you search you will find information on it and it was debated to death here.

Kung Lek - Your words and wisdom are sound. I, myself, am just letting it go and walking away. Its not like we can get the $$$ back anyway. I think Begby just wanted to warn others, based on his experience. The whole experience was just painful (still is) to me. Mostly, I am just mad at myself for not seeing it.

We are pretty divided among our opinions. I think he, himself, was skilled as a hung gar & FJP practitioner. In speaking with older students who left, no one has an inkling where all the shaolin, lohan & mantis forms came from.

However, I stand by my opinion that the way things are taught & "marketed" creates a bad atmosphere. A Whip chain class with 25 people (more then half with less then 3 months experience).

I dedicated alot of time and effort, believing things would get better around the corner. But it never came. I was confused for more then a year.

We were expressly forbidden to go to any public demonstrations. A friend of my went through hell just to go watch his girlfriend's black belt promotion in Tang Soo Do. When we finally violated that order and saw other styles and demos in Chinatown we were shocked at the disparity in skill levels and material taught. A friend of our's left a year before us and was already light years ahead of any of the seniors at the school. Seeing that I just couldn't go back.

I can't say that he is willfully & malisciously a fraud bilking people of their hard-earned money but the evidence is pretty ****ing. Keep in mind that all the $$$ he is charging is cash in nice little red envelopes.

Anyway, this is the last I want to say on the matter. Despite what I have written I don't like saying these things on a public forum. If people want to PM me for my opinions that is fine but I would rather discuss other kung fu matters and let Begby's warning stand as a guide for others.

[KC Elbows]

Scotty,

It was not quite so blatant. It was only after I left, and got back in contact with several ex-members, that I heard of the harrassment. Also, the isolation was not necessarily to the same degree for all students.

I never held multiple jobs when I was in, nor was I ever really told to. In fact, there were many occassions where I held no job at all(I was an irresponsible teen). I'd tell them "I'll pay in two weeks", then they'd forget how much I owed them, I'd pay a little here and there.

Keep in mind that those conditions are not ALL present in every story. However, there is usually some mix of them, and they generally don't start blatantly, but begin more subtly.

As for ratting out friends, there were plenty of us that didn't take part in that stuff.

Nonetheless, I will not claim that I wasn't gullible to have been a part of that garbage, I was totally gullible. However, you are mistaken to think that I or any of the people I know who once belonged to that organization are in any need of your sympathy. That's not what we're about.

Imagine that you were a beginner again, knew nothing about martial arts except that you were interested.

Now imagine that you met some teachers in a school, a bunch of whom were cool, a few of whom were tolerable, but they did what, to your inexperienced eye was cool martial arts. I'm sure at some point you had an instructor you were in awe of. Imagine that that instructor put forward a lot of stuff he believed was the truth about martial arts, but was just a story he was force fed. You don't know this is a story, the internet forums don't really exist yet, and the kung fu book scene has not kicked into full gear. Then one day you start learning more about martial arts, the history and all, and you realize that its all a load.

Then, the head of the school and your instructor(the one you respect) and a number of others get dragged into federal court. Out of loyalty, your instructor and a group of others take the fall for the head of the school in a tax evasion case, in order to minimize the "grandmaster"s sentence. Everyone knows the grandmaster must have been in on it, because he runs everything, and because he got all the benefits.

Then, before this instructor gets out of prison, the grandmaster sends tapes to all the schools of the instructors who took the fall, tapes from the end of a long grueling workout session. All of these instructors look terrible, because they were past exhaustion. The tapes make the case that all these instructors were bad martial artists, and they were the cause for all the schools problems, and they were not to be welcome at the schools anymore.

These guys took the fall for nothing, but what's worse is that the instructor you like is the only instructor you knew from the school who could actually fight, the guy loved martial arts, but he had been tricked by some jerk into believing martial arts were something they were not. He could have been a great fighter, but instead he is so disgusted that he swears off martial arts forever.

Now tell me, which would you be more interested in, the sympathy of some stranger on an internet forum, or the neck of the jerk who engineered the whole mess?

[KC Elbows]

My apologies for the last rant. It might be good for me to sleep EVERY night, eh?

I just get kind of annoyed by the assumption that those of us who speak out against Kim are in any way looking for sympathy. These are the experiences of those who have dealt with this group. I was lucky, but then again, I wasn't. I never suffered the brunt of the worst of that organization's SOP, but I helped pay for it to be that way, and contributed money to it, and turned on the blinders when I shouldn't have.

I would rather speak out against this organization where it is appropriate than just let them continue on their way. I am familiar with at least one high level member of the group that left because someone chose to speak out against them, and so it is worth it to me.

I can't wait to finish practice tonight and go to bed.

[begby]

KC Elbows:
That is terrible man. I have to admit...my blood started boiling while reading that. But just be glad you're out of there. Much like my former school, I'm just happy to be out.

Kung Lek:
I totally understand what you are saying. It is better to let it go. But the point of my initial post was not to bash anyone or any school. You know as well as anyone who's been on this forum as long as you have that this school has been "bashed" in every sense of the word. - and often times very tastelessly.
My purpose was to warn people so they don't get sucked-in to a place that will rob them of their money and time...people who may not know any better.
Before I went there, I had very little knowledge in CMA's - which is why I got sucked-in. As I learned more and more, I realized what was going on there. Of course people will have their own opinions and they may differ.
I'm just offering MY opinion...but mind you, my statements have been confirmed already by other people on this thread - and this entire forum for that matter.

CMA's have so much to offer. Many of the students there are not aware of what else is even out there. They are not allowed to!!!They think because they're learning a mantis form, that they know mantis style. Come on now.

All I'm saying is that there is something very wrong going on there and I want people to know about it.

[shaolinboxer]

"I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers. "

Kahlil Gibran

That sums up how I feel about these lousy situations.

[scotty1]

Dude, sorry if I gave the impression that I thought you wanted /needed/asked for any sympathy.

I can understand how you got drawn in, I did put myself in the position reading that, and I can see how it happened.

But understand that I read the article :

"A few times, I was beaten and badly hurt by instructors, who always justified their actions by saying to me that I wasn't trying hard enough, which is why they hurt me"

"You were in a state of low-grade terror nearly every moment you were in a school, thinking about whether this was the night an instructor would single you out to be hurt"

"Students, including myself, were regularly forced to confess "sins" to the instructors and the rest of the class."

"Critical opinions about John C. Kim were not only seen as illegitimate, but they could result in your being beaten if you voiced them."

"No independent thoughts were encouraged, only thoughts towards Chung Moo and how you could better your life in it, mainly by bringing down more money."

"People definitely suffered after having confessed things to instructors. When an instructor asked something, you had no choice whether to refuse. Information said in private could be made public any time, and was. I was present when several students were embarrassed this way."

"If the instructors perceived you weren't trying hard, or weren't bringing in enough money, you were subjected to humiliation and beatings."

Now, I can understand that your experience wasn't as extreme as that, but after reading the article I honestly found it amazing that someone would put up with that amount of crap, and pay for it.

I realise that you were not aware of all the above details at the time, and I can certainly understand the perspective of a green youngster, because I am one, pretty much.

What I cannot understand is how the gent telling the tales above could continue on with such an obvious (should have been to him) scam, with the evidence right in front of his face.

But again, apologies if I implied that you were fishing for sympathy, that was not my intention, my intention was merely to voice my incredulity at the refusal of some people to face the facts, even when they are in front of their nose.

[KC Elbows]

Scotty,
Don't take anything I say today too seriously, its the mountain dew speaking.

A lot of the people who were in earlier than I went through that stuff. Ironically, you came to believe that all other martial arts were merely Mckwoons, and so, bad treatment or no, if you loved martial arts, you would stay. I think some stayed because of an addiction to that weird social dynamic, but a good number merely loved martial arts, and would learn it at all costs

RD's forum (The Dragon's Dungeon) has turned into a sort of battleground between the opposing factions on the moo issue. Martial Arts Table Talk is also one. You would be amazed at the logic used against those of us who voice our opinion. The most recent tactic against me is to scoff at me because I'm still learning to fight in my thirties. And I thought that's what martial arts is all about.:rolleyes:

About every seven days, they spam table talk until it shuts down with a bunch of slurs against former members. For my part, I take the high road, and post under the name "Grandmaster Kim", saying things like:

"I teach american fatty's moo doe, they all stinky from chalupa and bean, I say 'you come to Kim house, but you no bring chubby american children, they make couch smell like pork.' They thank me! Maybe I show them more moo doe for dollar, make them twist crotch funny way, give it korean name, they think it something special, I say 'Now you warrior, where my five hundred dollar?"

I like to stick to the moral high ground.:D

[scotty1]

You camping under the stars KC?

Think I'll come to RD's forum, check it out.

[dezhen2001]

sounds like ur having fun KC... but you'll never do that to our Li Lian Jie doe :cool:

I been to RD's forum - it's mad there!

david

[Royal Dragon]

Don't forget I have the Kung Fu forum too!! The Chung Moo topic is banned, and if you post any of a dozen chung moo related catch phrases or words the system won't let you in.

It's only the Dungeon that's a mad house!!! (Kind'a why I named it that)

Stop by and say HI!!! Post cool Kung Fu stuff on the Kung Fu forum, and start fights on the Dungeon.

Its a Ying and Yang thing, Ya know?:D

[dezhen2001]

i'm looking there now RD and KC - man that is some crazy sheit :eek: :p

david

[Hai_To]

Royal Dragon,

I took a look at The Dragon's Dungeon. Wow, so that's what anarchy looks like. ;)

Those CMD guys don't know when to stop, do they?

[wushu chik]

Royal Dragon~
It's very cool! I joined!!! Just to bless you all with my loving opinions~

~Wen~

[Royal Dragon]

Good to see Yah!!

Also, as well as opinions, how about starting new topics? :D

RD