To Use The Hip Or Not Use The Hip: That Is The Question.

[Fu-Pow]

It seems like one of the greatest obstacles in IMA is to overcome the use of the hip to generate power. Especially people coming from an EMA background.

I think that one reason their are so many bad Yang stylists (I mean phony) out there is that the stances are more similar to Shaolin stances so that you can fake your power a little bit more. (BTW, I'm not in anyway saying which style is better or worse.)

Anyone have any comments on this? Excercises to practice to get around using the hip?

Thanks in Advance.

[yutyeesam]

I think what the perspective people from GM Feng/Yang Yang's lineage would say is more qigong practice, followed by silk reeling (and of course form and push hands, but that's a given).

I've noticed a substantial difference between people who do regular wuji practice and sitting meditation (upto 2 hours/day total) and silk reeling vs. those who do not.

Yang Yang said that in his day, to prove to GM Feng that you were worthy to learn Taiji seriously under him, you had to do stadning wuji 2 hours every day for a year.

What family Taiji do you do, Fu-Pow?

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[Nexus]

My teacher who studied with T.T. Liang said that Master Liang was a business man, and used to do Crane stance with arms in embracing the one posture for an hour when he had a limmited amount of time to practice his t'ai chi.

As for using the hips, it takes using the T'ai Chi Principles on a regular basis. Keeping the knee pointed outwards and opening that crease at the hip. Also sung exercises help where a person pushes on you and you release into that push.

- Nexus

[churn-ging]

I just started learning chen tai chi about a few weeks ago. Don't really know much about it yet, but I thought that you were suppose to use the hips to generate power. I thought that using the hips to generate power was one of those things that was common in all martial arts.

If your not suppose to use the hips to generate power, then how does tai chi generate power?

[denali]

when you say hips, do you mean the waist? hope not.

[Scarletmantis]

Yeah, I'm a little confused with what you mean by hips. In Ba Gua and most other internal arts we strive to relax and loosen all of the joints in the body, then connect them for maximum speed and power generation.

From your description it sounds as if you are suggesting that one NOT use his hips in connection with the rest of the body, in essence "freezing" them. I'm not sure that this can be accomplished, but even if it could, I'm sure you would agree that the results would be less than satisfactory.

The muscles around the hips and pelvis are notoriously difficult to learn to relax and use properly, but doing this will make your "ground connection" (sorry, I'm having to invent some terms as I go!) much more stable. Alot of people tend to turn Kou Bu and Bai Bu steps from the knee when they're starting out, for example, but the ideal situation is to connect and make the turn from the hip.

Ba Gua's spiraling movements must travel from the ground through the hips for proper power generation. Hsing I's "drilling fist" also utilizes this principle (actually all of the fists do, but Tzuann Chuan is the most obvious). "Part Wild Horses Mane", "Peng, Li, Ji, Ahn" for Taiji. I think you get the picture.

Perhaps you could take another stab at describing what you mean? Or perhaps your Laoshr will have answers?

[Kumkuat]

i think what Fu Pow says that external arts use the hips the main source of power. For example, in most waijia, when you punch, you twist your hips to generate the power behind the punch. Of course, I don't think he means to completely forget about the hip in the internal arts, just don't generate power from the hip when doing a punch or something. One example is the hidden hand punch from the Chen form. You definately don't twist your hips when you're trying to fajing that punch. You sink, store then explode, (somewhere around here, the punch comes out) then sink. (or something like that). OKay, your hips DO twist, but that should be the side effect of your power transfering, no to transfer the power.

So I think what he's asking is how not to use the hips to generate most of the power. I too had trouble with this. When I used to do short power, I would twist my hips to give it a little more power. Teacher said wrong. And I just made a mental effort not to do that.

Exercises? Well ummm, I can't really think of any. Maybe do the movement really really slow so you make sure you don't use the hip.

[NafAnal]

don't use the hip use the gua....

In EMA especially karate they are taught to "use the hip" to the unenlightened what this looks like is simply using one side of the hip to push the punch forward, because they don't elaborate any further you'll see entire schools using this method but more power is gleaned from using the legs, the etc.

What they really mean is use the gua. use the whole body. Most karate just lacks the tools in explaining it. You'll see the ocasional karateka using the whole body to generate power but these are just the "naturals" or the ones with good teachers. but often many will have bad habits which reduce the quality of their alignment, e.g. a stupidly unnatural spine alignment.

[count]

Just do your form and push hands. Relaxing the waist is parmount. It's clearly stated in the classics, "the millstone turns but the mind does not."

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Too often prople over-use the hips.. they tend to twist the hips-knees connection to the point that their foundation collapses.. the knees turn in, neutralizing their own power.. As the frame snaps into alignment, the ankles, knees and hips set-up the foundation while the waist, torso, shoulders and arms relax and whip the application toward its "intention"..

As an exercise, do your silk-reeling exercises with the hips fixed, rotating only the waist and above.. this also offers the maximum internal massage (the twisting of the torso massages internal organs).. When rotating the lower Dantien keep the horizontal circles of the knees to 3 inches or less, and the vertical movement of the hip-points at 2 inches or less, let the waist/abdominal connection work the Dantien circles..

Remember, the foundation supports the application.. once the application reaches its completion the foundation relaxes back into the rhythm of the process.. in practice the foundation is fixed for a very short time, less than a second.. in-fact, at the highest levels, we are like springs and the appearance of "fixed" is just the point of transition from yang to yin.. there is continual internal motion as the direction changes.. When using the eight section whip, at its full extension, the whip appears to be solid, but the energies that move it are changing direction and we all know that the appearance of a solid whip is a momentary illusion (but, there is no illusion to its maximum generated power)..

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. Be well..

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

any physical therapist will tell you not to turn your waist as we do in IMA becuse it will cause back problems. The pelvis/torso is what you are using especially in Chen when you shift weight and turn. Remember whole body movement....and that's my two cents.

Damian

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for all the replies. What I'm getting at is the hip transferring power vs. the dan tien (aka the waist) transferring power. I think that this is one of the major things that defines internal martial arts. In both internal and external MAs the power originates from the ground but in Shaolin derived MA's the power is transfered through turning or snapping the hip. In internal MA's the hip barely moves and the waist drives the power. I understand the idea but I have trouble getting it to work.

[denali]

The power in shaolin does not come from the hips, unless you don't understand what you are doing.

[Fu-Pow]

Denali-

I don't know if that comment was directed at me or what. I never stated that power originates in the hips only that it is transferred by it.

[denali]

Ok, but then any power that comes from the ground must be transferred through the hips somewhere along the line. I think what you're getting at is not using the hips too much, not completely ignoring them..?

[Fu-Pow]

Ok, but then any power that comes from the ground must be transferred through the hips somewhere along the line.

I don't think that this is correct. In external arts, yes. In internal arts, no. It's not that the hips don't move, but hips don't transfer the power, this is reserved for the waist. The area slightly above the hip.

Peace.

[denali]

Explain to me how the hips don't come in to play if they are moving.

[Fu-Pow]

Denali-

I can't. Read my original post. I'm trying to figure out how this works. All I know that is I have read and heard from my own teacher that I cannot use my hip in the same way that I do in the external arts. The hip may move but it doesn't transfer power in the same way, I think it has to do with the "kua" staying relaxed.

[denali]

Your original post implies that shaolin arts "fake" their power by using the hips. In real shaolin, the waist is more important than the hips. While I agree that internal arts power is slightly different, I disagree with your generalization of the "external" arts.

[Fu-Pow]

Actually I wasn't stating that at all. I was making the assumption that the readers already knew that internal and external arts have different ways of generating power. I never made any claim as to which one is better only that they are different.

There are Yang style Taiji (as well as Chen stylists) who fake understanding of the internal method of power generation by using the external method. I believe that this is much easier to do in the Yang style then the Chen style because the footwork is closer to external arts like Shaolin in Yang style.

Now, let me get this straight. You propose that there is no difference in how power is generated?

[denali]

Of course it's different. Read my last post.

I just think that your generalization of shaolin using the hips too much is incorrect. The waist is very important in shaolin.

Personally, I think Yang footwork is very different from shaolin. Chen postures are more similar to shaolin. But hey, that's just me.

[Fu-Pow]

I just think that your generalization of shaolin using the hips too much is incorrect.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know how to read.

I never said that anywhere.

Good luck with your illiteracy.....

[Scarletmantis]

Fu POw you are rude. You are also wrong. Power from the ground dosen't magically jump from the ground to the waist. It travels through the legs AND hips before it gets to the waist. I thought you were posing genuine questions because you wanted to learn something, but dropping insults when someone disagrees with you shows that your mind is not open (just like your hip joints). Good luck with your trolling.

[denali]

hehe.
Anyway, I'm not here to get in a squabble. I'd rather invest my time in real life. We can disagree and leave it at that, or we can discuss. Either way I don't care.

But you said, and I quote, "In both internal and external MAs the power originates from the ground but in Shaolin derived MA's the power is transfered through turning or snapping the hip. In internal MA's the hip barely moves and the waist drives the power."

I disagree with that. I'm not afraid of being wrong, but I would prefer an intelligent conversation instead of name calling.

[Fu-Pow]

Oops ....:( ....sorry about that Denali....that was uncalled for.....sometimes I can be rather moody and I have a silver tongue.......Apparently, something didn't work quite right with the forum.

I read your post and responded when I was in a bad mood and after a few minutes I reconsidered my post and erased it . For some reason it didn't get erased. Perhaps I closed my browser before the action could take place.

Anyways, again sorry. Obviously you know how to read.

The point I was trying to make is that I never stated that the Shaolin uses the hip "too much." Only that the power generation is different and the power transfers differently.

I study CLF and Chen Taiji and I am constantly reprimanded by my Taiji teacher for using the hip when I should be using the waist. That is what originally spurred my post.

You shouldn't be so touchy about practicing an external style (Hung Ga right?) it is just a different way of doing things.

After reading the intro to Tim Cartmell's Effortless combat throws I have a new outlook on mechanics.

Imagine that the body is composed of several large springs the spine, the chest, the legs and the arms. These are the 5 bows they talk about in Taiji. Elastic energy can be stored in the springs. The goal in Taiji is maintain the spring.

Located in the center of the springs is a heavy sphere aka the Dan Tien .

The springs are always under the compression of gravity and the heavy ball dictates where the line of gravity falls. Gravity does not provide much in the way of compression, however, the springs can also be under external compression as in from an opponent.

In order to generate power in Taiji the spring must become compressed and then snap back. This is under the control of the Dan Tien which directs the force into the spring and then controls where and when it snaps back.

If the body becomes too slack it is like the spring being made of something non-elastic like rope. It won't compress, it will simply collapse. If the body becomes too rigid it is like the springs becoming too stiff it will never compress.

This is of course and over simplification there are other factors to consider like bones, peripheral muscle, breathing, chi etc. But perhaps a good starting point?

[denali]

No worries Fu-Pow. Nothing personal..
Yes I do study Hung Gar mostly, but I have been learning some Yang taiji as well for the past 9 months or so. I definitely agree that the power is transferred differently, the movement is often quite different, but not always. I'm just saying that the waist is also very important in shaolin. Some internal artists talk like the waist is an internal-only concept.

Anyway, I find that the footwork and the different weighting in taiji stances seem to force you to use the waist differently. In taiji, it seems that you sometimes step out first and then use the waist after your hips are already aligned. While in shaolin the hips and waist sometimes turn at the same time.. It all depends on the movement and stance though. .
Maybe the difference isn't actually in using the hips *or* the waist, it's more about how you link them together. Just a thought..

[Stacey]

I used to be perplexed by this as well.


Lets use an x and y axis. Y represents the legs pushing up and down. x represents the waist (hits, kwa) turning back and forth.

Then you have the forward movement of the whole body.

I beleive Fu Pow is saying that in Internal arts you are going back and forth thinking of the dan tien as it lies vertically on the y axis.

He seems to beleive that by turning on the x axis you are cheating.

I believe all three components are needed for the internals. Some methods of power generatoin (perhaps ones Fu Pow has been exposed to) require a different ratio of x and y (waist to legs)

For balanced hitting you need at least some of the other one. Just twising karate style is ok, but why neglect the legs? Just going at an upward angle into the bow stance is also lacking.

[Scarletmantis]

I think most of us recognized what he was trying to say, but he is still incorrect. The only reason I even bothered arguing with him was that I didn't want him passing on his misinterpretation of whatever his teacher showed him to the inexperienced students. If he wants to practice incorrectly and argue with his seniors in order to protect his ego, fine. But, there are serious students here who are interested in learning something. I would hate to see someone rob themselves of the power that proper internal body mechanics can generate, just so they can appeal to a false esthetic.

[Nexus]

When the classics says movements come from the waist they mean movements come from the hips ie. the ingrinal grooves. This is the sexual area of the body and where the most power in the body is generated from.

[Zantesuken]

hmmmm all goodie good explanations! mine's gonna be nearly the same but yeah here goes. this was one of my recent thinking things while pushing hands.

Often hip power and everything you see people snapping their hips. while this is a way to generate power it's not exactly the corect way. Here's where i may come under fire.

When you turn during push hands, your feet don't turn. your head doesn't turn. you HIPS DO NOT TURN. it is your spine that turns. I'm not quite sure how to explain it but if you do it concentrate on your spine and going forward. if you can feel your spine rotating(or rather the base of it) then your hips are turning to. i used to be this way in that i would try to twist it hard and fast and of course ppl do that and it makes noise and your fist goes fast and does have power but it's the power of your back..

basically that's it. just concenrate on the spine and feel it turn rather than your hips. because if your spine turns and your body squares (aligns) then you should know your hips automatically turn with your spine.

that's why most tai chi masters (i can't speak for all) lean a slight bit forward. because it's their spine that gives them the power to push.

muhahaha now i can outpush my grandma! (i know it sounds sick but she's like 20 years tai chi practioner and not even this 6'3 , 250 lbs white guy could push her over!! haha!

i guess it comes down to your understanding. if something's not working for you then you gotta re-think how you do it and why someone else can do it and you can't. that's how i always get my stuff!

[PLCrane]

Hi,

I want to agree with Zantesuken, but I have to say it in a way that might sound like it's the opposite.

Don't rotate the spine, rotate the hips.

OK, I'll explain:

If you twist at the waist, you're rotating your spine at waist level, and your hips and shoulders are no longer connected. The y-axis is going through the spine, one shoulder goes forward and the other backward.

If you do the same thing and turn the hips and the spine together as a unit, without twisting at the waist, then one shoulder and the same side hip will go back, along with a fair amount of your push.

If you move the y-axis over to the hip opposite the side of the pushing hand, then the side of the pushing hand goes forward and nothing goes back. As you move your dantien toward your target, the hips will rotate slightly, opening the Kua and aligning the hips to root the push.

The best way to play with this is to push gently against someone or something and play with the alignment. When you've got it right, the your push goes back into your heel instead of pushing your body back.

I hope that makes sense.

[No_Know]

It seems Fu-Pow 's lack of awareness does not include differentiation of waist from hip. Look at skilled Ba-Gua people. walking a circle. The groin faces along the circle. That is the hips. Their torso can face directly into the circle. This is the hip.

EMA-the movement can be done with or without full use of the Hip. But the hip transfers the energy (gotten from below)(transfers it to be channeled (to where ever).

IMA-Without the Hip the movement is not correct. The Hip acts as a Connector.

IMA- The hip is opend or closed. But is set before the Waist moves. Acting as a support. While in EMA the Hip can be in transitwhile opening /closing.

The difference seems to be in the transition speed. It's faster in EMA and slower in IMA.

"When the classics says movements come from the waist they mean movements come from the hips ie. the ingrinal grooves. This is the sexual area of the body and where the most power in the body is generated from."

Is that an interpretation of the Classics, Nexus?

[Nexus]

Yes, as explained to me by my teachers.

[No_Know]

Thank you.

[Naturalkilla]

I think that loosening up the waist and turning it and not the hips is the answer here. The waist (the one I've been taught) is moving the rib cage with the hips never leaving their 45-60 degree angle in the bow and arrow stance (try receiving when they're straight and you'll have a hard time of it). That way you can get whole body power without twisting your hips (really, your ankles which breaks any structure you may have).

Sit on your forelegs (in a Japanese seiza) and twist your waist with a long stick or something to gain more flexibility in your torso, that way you can turn and keep your structure while doing it.

Have fun,

:p

[Naturalkilla]

Oh yeah, turning the hips also exposes your centreline (very bad, right?).

[No_Know]

Turning the hips relocates the centerline. I feel that the centerline~ is guarded by the arms and waist and hips whic canmove or rotate the centerline out of damage effect ofthe most immediate attack. The legs (knees, footwork, legwork) can defend or move too the centerline.

[Naturalkilla]

Hey man,

What I had in mind here was lines of strength (structure) in push hands. If you turn the hips forward (really, I mean rotating the pelvis into this position) you end up in having a gap behind yourself that makes you vulnerable in tui-shou. What I really mean is that to rotate the pelvis forward in such a manner reduces this front-back line of strength and that it can only be accomplished by means of employing physical movement (which is not to be used in true Taiji, IMA due to the necessity of using non-muscular energy for locomotion).

You're absolutely right, though. The centreline can be well defended with the upper body and footwork. Many other styles (Jeet Kune Do for instance) also advocate a side on or centerline protected stance that involves keeping the pelvis at an angle and not face forward at 90 degrees.

[Scarletmantis]

O.K. The centerline is NOT a fixed point on your body, but rather the vertical center of gravity. Because of this, it is the best targeting area for throws/strikes. The positioning of the hips won't "protect the cenerline" as it's not a fixed point! Irregardless of the hip position, the hip joints are targets, at least in Pa Kua Chang and you can bet I'm going after them if they happen to be riding along the opponents center supposedly "protecting" it.

[greendragon]

having trained in both shaolin and IMA, i was taught the same principle in both: power is rooted in the feet, directed by the waist, functions through the hands. I think rather than viewing it as hips or waist, think of only tan tien. all movement should originate from center and all techniques should adhere to some type of center action. the difference between EMA and IMA is in the delivery of the technique, relaxed-sinew-penetrating through vs. focus -tensing at impact. i was analyzing this hip-waist issue while running the TCC form and i think they move together but the waist has a slightly bigger range of motion.. good thread all.

[greendragon]

Scarlet, I like what you said about the hip joints as targets! makes for an easy take down.

[Fu-Pow]

I've come to the conclusion that they way to isolate the waist from the hip is to:

1) Keep your hips and shoulders joint in alignment.

2) Keep your elbows and knees pointing in the same direction.

3) Keep your hips, shoulders and head level.

4) Keep the back relaxed with its natural curve maintained (ie don't tuck under the tail bone)

5) Keep the bai hui and huiyin in relaxed alignment. Let the shoulders relax down the back.


If you do all this in your Taiji form the body will naturally move from the waist. If you try to focus your movement on the waist you will lose the connection.

Also, EMA's have some moves that adhere to these principles but in IMA's all moves adhere to these principles.