Observations from this weekend's Kenpo excursion

[Merryprankster]

I went to visit my girlfriend's Kenpo school this weekend, and as always had a good time. They are a good group of folks to train with, and good to hang out with.

My girlfriend was discussing the different instructors that she'd had experience with there, and there was a common theme: All the ones that are the best at applying kenpo and helping her understand it had all done--and competed-- in sportive arts in the past-- a wrestler, a boxer, a judoka, and a kickboxer, respectively.

The ones she had gotten the least out of, and incidentally were not as good at applying the techniques in Kenpo had done only Kenpo or trained in other "non-sportive," arts.

By non-sportive, I mean arts that don't have competition as an integral part of the art. I know you can train in boxing and never compete, but you understand what I'm getting at.

I recognize that there are other ways to attain the same proficiency, and I also realize that correlation is not necessarily causation. However, my belief is that these individuals have an understanding that the others have not received nearly as much of in their training: They understand the structure of personal combat. Because of that, they understand what it is they do very well, realizing that what makes something work in real life, might be slightly different than what makes it work in an ideal situation--an example might be when one of these instructors was correcting my girlfriend's technique that involved an elbow strike to the floating ribs--he understood that the purpose of the strike was not just to strike through the opponent but to also move them backwards, and corrected her movements to reflect that--that way, if the elbow strike failed, she still would be basically shoulder checking the "bad guy."

In other words, the sportive training gave these guys a very principle based understanding of what they do (ie, even if you don't get the elbow strike, you've rocked him...which is the point anyway. You can either do it with a precise elbow to the floating ribs, or, the much higher percentage shoulder check, while aiming for the floating ribs.)

What do ya'll think?

Again, I want to emphasize that I realize you can get to the same end point different ways, but I think it's possible that combat sports speed the process considerably.

Before I forget, these guys whack the crap out of each other on a regular basis... I know they can bang, which is one reason I like going there :)

[shaolinboxer]

I see what you are saying. There is a huge difference in aikidoka who trained in other arts prior to taking up aikido. It's pretty obvious...the aikido only folks seem to always be doubting something...as if they just don;t really understand the practical value of what they are doing. One fellow I train with even makes comments like "well noone would really approach you like this but"...seemingly unable to grasp the fact that the technique we are practicing represents a concept tha can be applied to actual combat, more than something you should expect to do specifically.
And then, why is it that they don;t go ahead and say to one of their fellow aikidoka "come try to take my head off with a real punch"? Cause they don't know what a real punch is. They never reach out into the abstract to give their training real practical value. They don't take the time to learn what the hell it is they are trying to learn to counter.

As you may be able to tell, I find this a bit frustrating. When I can perform freestyle aikido counters against unpredictable, real attacks, then I will really have something I think. And it is something that I intend to share. Our sensei does this, as do many of my fellow aikidoka who have training beyond our dojo. But I just cannot be down with traditional purism. It is my opinion that you need to know what fighting (as in competative engagement) IS before you learn how to deal with it.

[JWTAYLOR]

Competition breeds excellence.

That, and injuries. But excellence too.

There are very few, if any, human pursuits that envolve more than one person in which competition does not improve performance.

This goes doubly for any physical endeavor, and tripple for the martial arts.

What school did you go to? Try Rob LaPoint's school in Arlington some time. He is a black belt under my instructor but I don't think he teaches American Kenpo anymore. He LOVES to wrestle and he has a pretty regular roll if I remember correctly. His main style that he teaches now is White Crane Kung Fu. Tell the guy you're a wrestler and see if you can go 10 minutes without him asking you to get on the mat. Nice guy to boot.

JWT
JWT

[Merryprankster]

JWT--I might do that, thanks for the input. I went to a school that's affiliated with Tracy Kenpo in Mamaroneck, NY (please stop looking at me as if I were the anti-christ :)). seriously, they just train hard.

shaolinboxer--I know exactly what you mean. One of the students asked me to throw a hook so she could practice one of her techniques. So, I threw a hook. Her technique didn't work until she said, "no, throw it more...umm," and I said "OH! you want the drunken frat boy bar brawl swipe, not a hook."

And that's what she wanted. Now, one of the sportively trained guys saw this and said--"No, no--throw a hook, and YOU, adjust your block slightly, like THIS--or that hook's going right through your block and knocking you out."

I think that's the sort of thing we're talkin' bout, yeah?

[joedoe]

Competition, while it is not a real fight situation, is a good way to test your skills. A very good way to find out what works and what doesn't. And no, it isn't the only way.

However, competition is not for everyone.

Do you guys think that you can find out the same things by training closely with people who have had competition experience? Or is it something you have to do for yourself?

[Merryprankster]

Yes, you can absorb it indirectly. There are a couple of guys there that have done that. But it requires a lot of sparring with the sportive guys so that you understand "different," approaches.

King of the Kwoon syndrome is real--you learn to execute your gameplan against the same set of guys constantly, and you need to stay fresh--make sense?

[CD Lee]

Did you guys ever think, that the ones who could execute techniques better and faster, had more interest in doing combative sport matches in various areas of the arts? In no way am I saying this is the 'why'. But there is some truth to this.

I have seen people who fight based on principles, never spar, and have won lots of street fights. They are not scared to get hit, or to execute.

One of these in particular, does not take any MA. He simply knows a couple of boxing punches, is strong, and mainly just straight forward and brave. My point is that he would be able to use whatever he learns in any art and make it work, because he is not afraid that he will fail.

[Merryprankster]

My point was more that those who have trained in sportive styles seem to be able to grasp the principles and make them work in a variety of situations more easily than those who hadn't--they are also, generally, not quite so obsessed with making it look PERFECT.

It's possible that, as you suggest, some of this is innate. But considering that one of the guys is not a natural athlete, clearly, then I'd say the type of training had a good bit to do with it too.

Wow, did YOU drag this up from the backwoods :)

[Dark Knight]

Sparring is not the end all, but it is important. I have met a few students who take classes from schools who actually say "What we do is too deadly to spar with". And when they do put the gloves on they don not do well.

The best way to get a feel for body motion and reaction is to actually try it. (Or as close to it as we can;) )

[Merryprankster]

Dk,

Of course not. A school that just sparred all the time would be just "fight club."

But a school that never sparred is simply bad.

[Dark Knight]

I agree MP

[rogue]

The reason they did poorly Dark Knight was that they were trying not to kill you. Now if you had made them mad you wouldn't be posting here today! :p

[red5angel]

I agree with the need for sparring to round out a persons skeewz, but I have a problem with saying that "sportive training" is what did it for these guys, MP. Is it the training or the competition that did it for them?
IMHO, training is training, you can sit around and do forms, drills, and stances until you are blue in the face, it MAY not get you where you should be. You could spar until your little heart pops, and it MAY not get you anywhere. A combination of both will most likely make you a better fighter, that and a little genetics and some serious willpower.
As for training in sportive arts, I know a guy who was a wrestler for 8 years, captain of the team. He has a hard time actual sparring though with me,not sure why it is, he is a good wrestler but it doesnt seem to do him a whole lot of good in the ring.

[Dark Knight]

"The reason they did poorly Dark Knight was that they were trying not to kill you. Now if you had made them mad you wouldn't be posting here today! "

I know, if they had let go with a secret ninja technique......I shiver thinking about it:D

[Merryprankster]

Red,

Which part of


Of course not. A school that just sparred all the time would be just "fight club." But a school that never sparred is simply bad.

was not understood?

In other words, I'm agreeing with you. It takes both.

However,

Competing (or sparring with people from other places on a regular basis) is a big part of it. Why? Because you get to see other ways of doing things--even other ways of doing the same thing! And sometimes you have to do stuff on the fly to adjust and over time, you start to feel that. It doesn't mean you have to spar against TKD to deal with them, but you start to see how things you do are applied across the board--like "HEY, I can use THIS idea, here TOO, not just for THAT.

Being King of the Kwoon because you constantly win against people who have learned exactly the same things you have, exactly the same way you learned them doesn't tell you much--and doesn't help you develop as well either.

[red5angel]

no need to get your grundies in a bundle MP, at the beginning of your thread, you expressed an experience which sounds like you are saying that people with "sportive" (Whatever that is) training are privy to secrets those who dont do not have. Basically it looked like a this way of training is much better thread......

MP - "My point was more that those who have trained in sportive styles seem to be able to grasp the principles and make them work in a variety of situations more easily than those who hadn't"

If you imply, as you did with your last response that sparring and training make a "complete martial artist" then I would agree.
If you imply that those with "sportive" training have an edge, I would disagree. Sport is sport, not fighting. I have sparred, and although it resembles fighting much more so then drills, it is not fighting, it is sparring.

[Merryprankster]

No, it's not fighting--but considering that only fighting is fighting, I prefer sparring. The legal ramifications aren't as great, and nobody shoots you dead :)

Now--when I'm talking sportive, I'm defining a way of training that involves regular, frequent, medium to full contact sparring with appropriate training gear. These people have an advantage over those that go "bare-knuckle, light contact, and if you get a 'vital area,' then that guy 'wins,' and you start over."

You can't make it OUT of a sportive art without regularly, frequently, enountering somebody trying to beat you, both in a conceptual and physical sense.

Competition is looking for people outside your art that want to play too, under similar conditions (medium to full contact, right gear, etc). And that can be at a shiai or a tournament or even a ring fight--or just getting together with people you know, as I said, who want to play too.

[red5angel]

Aaahhhh. See now your makin sense! I would have to agree with you that in that case they would definitley have an advantage.
Especially in classical styles where one can become easily confused between the precision of a form and actuality of a fight. For instance, when doing a form, precisenss is necessary to be doing it correctly but one may come to find that precision is very difficult in a street situation. This reality may not occur to someone until they actual get stuck in.
Now, before someone misunderstands me, I am not saying precision isnt important, just ask a boxer, or a wing chun guy, but it tends to be less precise when applied in a situation.

[Merryprankster]

EXACTLY Red!

I think we're really in agreement :)

"Perfection is the enemy of good enough."

We practice things to improve our accuracy knowing that when the crap hits the fan, it will be less than optimal--and the ones that have done more competing and sportive stuff, seem to really have a grasp on that whereas those that haven't seem to more frequently fall into the trap of "no, it's done like THIS," regardless of the variables...

Not always--but the experience of the sportive training and the competition helps.

[red5angel]

agreed. :)

[No_Know]

"In other words, the sportive training gave these guys a very principle based understanding of what they do (ie, even if you don't get the elbow strike, you've rocked him...which is the point anyway. You can either do it with a precise elbow to the floating ribs, or, the much higher percentage shoulder check, while aiming for the floating ribs.) "

Not all elbows are for that dual use. Multiple purpose is an awareness not the point. When initiating a technique one might should attempt one technique at a time. Recognize if the committed technique is a scrub. Then, use the awareness to convert horse hockey (pucks) into maneuer and reap the fertile crops of Understanding with diligent/repetitive practice. And the instinct/comprehension/learning from experience+ that lets a person to Know/Feel Timing/Distance and Appropriateness (where ever applicable).

Theoretically, I comprehend from where you're comming. But it seems like two notions that got blended. It's not sportive training. It's the compulsion of putting things in their place. Sportive people had better have it. To do better in competition against others. Forms only~ people (these people are mythical...Anyone who stays with forms and understands what their goal is /-s are at least eventually visualize --Like a bad dream where your brain makes it so real you mumble when you talk, your legs pump when you run, and your heart rate treats it as if it were occuring as in the Waking world; and train body weapons; even train specially geared exercises all to do the form best as their growing understanding allows). People who do an art for the sake of the art also do this. It's something that Can be found in sportive training, but not Solely found nor intrinsic to sportive training.

I say Not intrinsic to sportive training relevant to Rules. People tend to stop playing and try to use the rules to their advantage. This working of the rules is looking to win by skill of guile. Not the
skill of physical-mental-spiritual-emotional working of the body to be better than others for a single moment, many times. Life or Death~, both might not be playing by the Same rules. In which case your understanding to run out the clock or get a Technical Knock Out or get a point or get them out of bounds or thinking you've won when they hit the ground so you stop to celebrate victory doesn't benefit you except if you live through it you start or add to a database of don't do that again.

Looking over your (Merryprankster) say, there seems to merely be one thing. Looking for things to make sense.

[No_Know]

"For instance, when doing a form, precisenss is necessary to be doing it correctly but one may come to find that precision is very difficult in a street situation. This reality may not occur to someone until they actual get stuck in.
Now, before someone misunderstands me, I am not saying precision isnt important, just ask a boxer, or a wing chun guy, but it tends to be less precise when applied in a situation."

Precision can be maintained with moving targets, and in high winds and underpressure. It isn't precision if it doesn't factor-in the likes of these and others. There are theoretically a lot of boxers and Wing Chun people. Not most of them might have great skill nor comparitively a good amount of skill. The ones you're thinking of might not have the Skill to follow or deviate. So it looks to you more like vague strikng. They are Not the Rule.