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Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 03:29 AM
Why is my thread being deleted for the second time? I mean "2 more masters leave EWTO"? Just coincidence again or something else?

Peter


Sihing73:
Reacting to your private mail:

Indeed I didnīt post the thread on the VTA forum! I even didnīt know itīs on there!
You think referring to a new website on wich people are saying they are founding a new organisation would add nothing of any interest to this forum?
I donīt agree!
As Iīm indeed from an organisation that also left the EWTO, Iīm not stating anything, as you couldīve read in the thread.
That these new developments are of great interest for people within the EWTO, you can read on the german forum, were this is being discussed openly!
As you may have a personal relationship with mr. Kernspecht, it doesnīt mean I canīt referre to these new happenings!

Like to hear your point of view.

Peter.

Botha
04-18-2002, 04:26 AM
I think this development has great news interest. It is concerning many people if you know that the EWTO is the largest wingchun organisation worldwide. It is the largest because of the many schools and students in Germany. And even in Germany people are openly discussing this subject.
Look at:

www.wt4um.de

I think it's strange to delete this thread because i can find several threads on this forum with less information or news interest than this one.

Botha

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 06:39 AM
quote from Sihing73:
Anyhow, the thread does nothing to promote the art of Wing Chun. Rather, it is more likely to cause bad feelings and cause strife.
So this is how you think about mentioning a new Wing Chun organisation is being founded?

Instead of taking the chance of stirring up trouble I figure it is better to be safe than sorry.
We have been through this before. As youīve seen from the responses the last two times I tried to post this thread, nobody felt offended or was even sarcastic about it. Even then you should take your measures against these kind of responses, I believe. Not in advance.

Feel free to reply but I think this is clear enough.
Not at all. Iīm sorry.

Peter.

Sihing73
04-18-2002, 07:18 AM
Hi Peter,

I replied to you and gave you an opportunity to reply to me. I stated my position clearly.

From the start on this forum you have seemed to be promoting your own ends. I am hardly surprised that "Botha" has immediatly jumped onto your wagon in this thread. Nice coincidence that he was able to get on board so quickly, huh, :)

Anyhow as I stated your post does not seem to be intended to advise people of "news". You have made it quite clear in the past, both in PM and e-mails to me, which I could copy here as well ;) , your dislike of the EWTO. You seem to relish any problems which this organization has and seem to like to bring them to the attention of others. What, I ask, does this do to promote the art of Wing Chun? Instead you take a bad or less than desirible situation and attempt to stir the pot a bit. Who knows maybe some of those leaving will now learn of your "organization" and wish to become a part of it, at least they will learn of the many "names" which put down the EWTO and promote your group on the various boards of the internet.

You show the same inclination to cause trouble as your actions with VTS and your "innocent" references to the "machine" time and again. Perhaps you think you are fooling people and maybe you are; however I have come to believe that you are self serving and take great pleasure in the troubles of others. In particular the problems of the EWTO which is yor former organization, prior to your Sifu leaving and forming his own group. This, to me, shows a complete lack of respect and a lack of any understanding of respect as taught in the kwoon.

I left the WT org several years ago for my own reasons. However, I do not take pleasure in any past, current or future problems of that, or any other organization. I also have not openly gloated over anyone elses problems. Nor have I posted things in a blatant attempt to undermine those that remain. Nor to obtain a negative reaction about someone else or thier lineage.

I replied to your question. You chose to take a Private Message, at least some parts of it :rolleyes: the parts I guess you figured would serve your ends, and post in public rather than reply by either PM or e-mail. This in itself says something of your ethics and intentions. I tried to save you the embarassment of being told publically that your "agenda" of posting veiled and snide slights of any organization would not be acceptable.

I hope that is clear enough for you as I am unable to draw you a picture in this medium :D

Peace,

Dave

Alpha Dog
04-18-2002, 07:24 AM
Maybe Peter's dislike for EWTO, if that is true, is supportable -- why not try to counter the argument and let others make up their own minds? I guess it's easier to win an argument when you can just hit delete!

Sihing73
04-18-2002, 07:44 AM
Hi Alpha Dog,

The problem with arguing involving lineage is that it tends to degenerate into insults and other negative things. In some cases differences can be discussed, as can be shown in the recent thread; "Lineage" as well as the thread "Question on TWC" and several others throughout the forum. Some of the comments were good and some were not. However, the topic starters did not have or show a past tendency to belittle any organization.

Not so with our friend "Peter". Peter has gone out of his way to degrade several others. In particular he has seemed to take great pride in the problems of the EWTO. He has sent me several e-mails and Private Messages detailing this fact. I simply question his motivation for posting this topic in the first place. If it is posted in the intention of pointing out the troubles and perhaps adding to them, of anyone else then that seems a poor reason to post at all. Of course, everyone is open to their own interpretation. Most of the responses, were of the type:
1) Hey those guys look funny
2) Is this site even in English
3) That website is bad on the eyes

While you may see some value in this I would be curious in how it did anything to move the art forward. Perhaps you could explain that to me. Instead, it seemed designed to point out the problems of the EWTO, two masters(?) leaving and pointing to a site which would not be very informative to the majority of members here due to a difference in language and design.

As to supporting the EWTO I can assure you that is not my intention. I have no ties with Keith Kernsprecht nor the EWTO. Still, I do not relish any difficulties they may be having at the moment.

Of course, I could simply delete everything which I did not like. However, if I did that then there would be much less, if any, topics left on this board at all. I simply do not relish those that take pleasure in the misfortunes of others.

Peace,

Dave

Alpha Dog
04-18-2002, 07:50 AM
A good friend of mine told me once, "If you wanna learn to play better tennis, move to Florida."

If you don't like the majority of posts here, why do you stay?

red5angel
04-18-2002, 07:51 AM
UhOh! :eek:

Sounds like Peter has been trusted as a troll!

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 07:51 AM
Sihing73


You have made it clear in the past, both in PM en e-mails to me, wich I could copy here as well, your dislike of the EWTO
He, I never went public you know. As you said, just in PM en e-mails to you. It was you who toke my private mail addressed to you to mr. Kernspecht.
In fact I does not have much up with the EWTO, but I donīt dislike it. Thatīs what you make out of it! Hé, my roots are within the EWTO.
Instead you take a bad or less desirible situation and attempt to stir the pot a bit
Hé, I just mentioned developments of great interest are going on in Germany. Again look at the german forum, (Bothaīs thread), where is being discussed openly. This is not the first time I say this to you: You always want to see the negative side of something being said.
Who knows some of those leaving will now join your "organization" and wish to become part of it
I never mentioned "my organisation" on this forum. In the thread "wingtsun clips" I referred only to a clip. In fact, according to my profile, I practise some "Wing Tzun". An organistion I never heard of. So, this doesnīt stroke with your claim.

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 08:04 AM
... and what about those seminar invitations on this forum?
You show the same inclination with your action with VTS and your "innocent" references to the machine time and time again
Youīre the only one who is still being upset. Anyhow, this has nothing to do with this thread.


I think your a personal friend of mr. Kernspecht and you see it as your duty to avoid any comment that eventually could lead to comments about him or his organisation. If so, then your function on this forum should be discussed.

yuanfen
04-18-2002, 08:11 AM
I think this development has great news interest. It is concerning many people if you know that the EWTO is the largest wingchun organisation worldwide.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Life has been fair Botha- despite the deletion ;your item got its minutes of fame. FWIW---to lots of non ewto folks the size of ewto as a non charitable organization...its additions and subtractions do little to explain the art of wing chun.

On the logic of censorship on this forum--- banning whipping hand provides the mark --pro or con.

dezhen2001
04-18-2002, 08:15 AM
Sorry if my comment on 'hurting your eyes' ruffled a few feathers. I was making reference to the flashing rainbow coloured background on part of the site, in a humourous manner (though it obviously wasn't clear enough :p).

david

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 08:15 AM
In particular he has seemed to take great pride in the problems of the EWTO. He has sent me several e-mails and Private Messages detailing this fact

My PMīs to you started about Alan Fong. Then I explained my relation with Alan to you. About starting a new organisation next to the EWTO in Holland. You explained this as a"lack of respect". I never spoke bad about the EWTO, just mentioned the differences. Again you saw this as critisism. I also have all the copies of the mails.

The fact that I do this "en public" is that you doesnīt answer my PMīs.

"Peter"

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 08:36 AM
From the start on this forum you have seemed to be promoting your own ends. Iīm hardly surprised that "Botha" immediately jumped onto your wagon in this thread. Nice coincidence that he was able to get on board so quickly, huh.
It was Botha who told me the thread was being deleted. I never denied I didnīt know Botha. I even mentioned this to you in a PM, as you couldnīt give it a rest. For you and to whom it may concern Botha is my cousin!!!!!!!!!! This also explains the same IP in the beginning as he then paid me a visit..A thing I never heard you mention again, because of the different IPīs.

I must say you jump to your conclusions too soon. And as a moderator youīre very suggestive.

Peter.

Botha
04-18-2002, 08:36 AM
Well Dave,
What are you actually trying to say by me jumping on the wagon so quickly??

First of all we live in the same time zone
Second the thread started by Peter is one concerning myself too.

I'm not an active member of the EWTO, but I try once in a while to attend some EWTO seminars in Germany. That's how I met the both masters mentioned in the thread. So for the first time in a while there was a thread i found surprising and worth to comment. And now you begin to accuse me ( of what?)

BTW EWTO developments in Germany are quite interesting for us dutch because Germany i'sn't that far away. Even the headman of the Dutch branch of the EWTO is a German.

Maybe you just don't like Dutchmen!

dezhen2001
04-18-2002, 08:59 AM
...?This also explains the same IP in the beginning as he then paid me a visit..A thing I never heard you mention again, because of the different IPīs.

but i thought the original reason for you 2 having the same IP address was that you were in an internet cafe. A random same computer thing and all that...It's also easy to get another IP address if you know how.

david :)

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 09:08 AM
In fact, this is also true. I happen to work in an internet café!
But anyhow, this is the least interesting reponse I expected!

Point: Botha and Peter are not the same persons.

Peter.

dezhen2001
04-18-2002, 09:32 AM
Peter: no offence was intended, i was just wondering why you didn't say he was your cousin right from the start, that's all..no problem :)

david

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 09:56 AM
I didnīt take it as an offence, ok? But family matters shouldnīt be of any concern when posting on this forum. So I kept info as less as necessary. But sihing73 thought differently. Thatīs why.

Peter.

dezhen2001
04-18-2002, 10:03 AM
like i said before, no problem :)

david

Sihing73
04-18-2002, 01:24 PM
Hi Peter,

I am glad you have copies of the e-mails as I do also. It might be interesting to compare them ;)

As to your reference to me not answering your PM's I will call you on that and state quite simply that in this you are a liar. Plain and simple. I have both the received and SENT or replies to your PM's. I have replied to each and every one of them which you sent me. I may not have done it that very minute but I did reply. Saying otherwise leads me to call you on that. :)

As to Botha being your cousin that is great. If I recall correctly when the same IP was mentioned in the first place you claimed to be using an "internet cafe" and said that this person must have "happened" to get on the very same computer as yourself and then conincidently gone to the exact same site and replied to your thread all in just about 4 minutes. Why did you not then try to clear things up by advising that Botha was your cousin, although I always suspected the two of you were related :) perhaps more closely than cousins.

You have taken some of the things I said to you out of context, which does not surprise me. As I said I also have the copies of the e-mails and PM's sent to me.

I still say you have a biased interest in degrading certain others. I also say that this shows a lack of both maturity and respect. As to things being of interest to those Dutch members I am sure there are many things which are of interest to our members. I am also sure that much can be offered in a positive manner. I happen to like "most" Dutch people as I do people in general. However, I do not particularily care for those who hide their true identies and post things designed to stir trouble of move their personal agenda forward. Of course, this does not mean you ;)

In any event you can feel free to rant and rave if it makes you feel better. I think you know what I believe. Perhaps I am alone in this and perhaps I am not. Still, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck chances are it is a duck.

BTW: I notice you failed to reply to my Pm to you. May I inquire as to why? Or will you fabricate something about that too? I suppose you enjoy the attention more than I. I wish you well, and Botha too.


Originally posted by Peter Aarts

Again you saw this as critisism. I also have all the copies of the mails.

The fact that I do this "en public" is that you doesnīt answer my PMīs.

"Peter"

Alpha Dog,

I did not say I did not Like the majority of posts just that if I deleted everything I did not agree with there would be much less. I can disagree with someone and still like them. :)

Peace,

Dave

Alpha Dog
04-18-2002, 01:35 PM
:D that's just super Dave! More evidence of your good-person status! thanks for helping!:D

Sihing73
04-18-2002, 01:43 PM
Hi Alpha Dog,

You are welcome. Would you like me to send you a picture I would even be willing to autograph for you. Seems to me that you might have better things to do with your time than to worry about me or how I am precieved. Of course, if I am of such importance to you this does say something about you as well ;)

Peace,

Dave

Alpha Dog
04-18-2002, 01:50 PM
Hope it doesn't say anything bad about me, Dave, b/c that would be bad!:(

Sihing73
04-18-2002, 01:50 PM
Hello Everyone,

I just read something posted my Monkeyman on another thread which makes sense.

"I thought this forum was for the discussion of Wing Chun not verbal sparring" A paraphrase, in other words not an EXACT quote. However it does make sense. I have engaged in some of the "verbal sparring" so will share in the guilt.

So you are invited to take your final shots. Say what you wish about me and my motives. I will not respond in this vein any longer. Sorry for the diverting from the course. Besides my last remarks were starting to get a bit too personal.

Peace,

Dave

Alpha Dog
04-18-2002, 01:53 PM
:D

Peter Aarts
04-18-2002, 02:40 PM
As to your reference to me not answering your PMīs I will call you on that and state quit simply that you are a liar.
So my PM to you titled "RE:correction sent 03 03 2002 at 10.48 am was never answered. This was a reaction on your PM to me, titled re:correction, sent 03 03 2002 at 03.12 am.
Also I mean that you never reacted on my statements to you in my PMīs, but you always tried to explain the things I said negatively.
You are a liar.

Even more you took my PM to mr. Kernspecht, with my username on it!


I donīt USUALLY just delete things without an explanation. If I deleted or closed your post I would simply tell you so.
Youīre a liar.

As for Botha, read the posts to Dezhen2001 above.


I donīt care about your suggestions anymore. Come with good arguments and leave that mud throwing.

Peter.

dezhen2001
04-18-2002, 04:28 PM
how come if you're a WT instructor, then your first post was asking for a good school? :confused: Then your cousin just happened to answer for you 4 minutes later! that just makes absolutely no sense at all. :confused:

maybe it's just me?

david

Sihing73
04-18-2002, 04:28 PM
Peter, Peter,

No need to get so upset the truth is often revealed whether one likes it or not. I really do grow tired of this and think others on the board may feel so as well. However just to clarify I will try to set you straight one last time :rolleyes:

1st you say the reason you brought this to the public board is that I "doesn't answer your PM's". Your own words not mine. Now you are saying that I never reacted to your statements in the PM's. Well which is it? Did I reply or didn't I???

As to the PM you mention I don't even see that in my list although I do see the reply I sent to you that you mention. Either you never sent it or possibly I accidently deleted it, although not very likely :) Please feel free to send it again and I will happily reply to it. However it now seems that we have gone from me having not replied to your PM's to me not reacting to them, and now you list one lone PM supposedly sent to me at the end of March to which I never replied. Seems to have gone the route from never to sometimes. I wish you would be consistent. Please make up your mind as to whether I replied to your PM's or not.

As to taking an e-mail to "Mr. Kernsprecht" with your username on it I would love to see this, lol. I did tell you that I would contact the EWTO regarding some of the accusations you made against them. I did contact them and inquire about some of the things you stated. However I did not forward any e-mail from you nor did I mention you by name. I did however inquire about your Sifu and whether he had been affiliated with the EWTO in the past. Since my Sihing is still active in teaching in Germany I figured it would do no harm especially since you brought another Sifu of mine into the equation, Alan Fong. What's the matter did someones feathers get ruffled because I inquired about your Sifu?

I contacted you by PM regarding the deletion of your posts. Rather than reply you chose to post portions of that PM publicaly in this forum. Seems to me that the facts speak for themselves. I contacted you, rather than reply you attempt to bolster your position with edited portions of various messages. Shoot, I could get the Bible to say anything I wanted if I only took the portions I wanted.

Bottom line: Regardless of whether I say something is true or false, or you do, does not make it so. Both of us know the truth ;) I am secure that I behaved ethically are you?

As to Botha again some consistency would be nice. First you say one thing and now another. Of course this happens when one deals in fabrication sometimes the story changes, even slightly. To another the variation becomes like a beacon revealing the inconsistency and falsehood.

Peace,

Dave

This is my last word on the matter. I sincerely hope that your Wing Chun is better refined than your verbal skills. If not then I suggest you take up basket weaving and leave Wing Chun to the big boys.


Originally posted by Peter Aarts

So my PM to you titled "RE:correction sent 03 03 2002 at 10.48 am was never answered. This was a reaction on your PM to me, titled re:correction, sent 03 03 2002 at 03.12 am.
Also I mean that you never reacted on my statements to you in my PMīs, but you always tried to explain the things I said negatively.
You are a liar.

Even more you took my PM to mr. Kernspecht, with my username on it!


Youīre a liar.

As for Botha, read the posts to Dezhen2001 above.


I donīt care about your suggestions anymore. Come with good arguments and leave that mud throwing.

Peter.

Redd
04-18-2002, 04:46 PM
Want a little cheese with that whine?

mun hung
04-19-2002, 02:30 AM
I've been following this drama for a little while, and I tend to agree with dezhen2001. I asked you the same question a little while back about you asking around for a good Wing Chun instructor in your area, and then end up being an instructor. You replied that you were inquiring about WC and not WT. Okaaay..... Correct me if I'm wrong, but who would know better about instructors in your area than yourself? Wait a minute...you must've just moved there from Pittsburg, right?

I also agree that if Botha is indeed your cousin - then you should've stated that in the first place. That internet cafe story 4 minutes apart was rather incredible.

Now you're saying you "happen to work in an internet cafe?"

Maybe you should get your story straight by reading some of your old posts first before posting new ones.
:confused:

dezhen2001
04-19-2002, 04:43 AM
The thing is, i can't remembe rif you originally asked about WT or WC... as the thread was deleted real quick... But then you mentioned your Instructor right? Doesn't he do WT, or trained in that originally or something? :confused:

very confused :confused:

david