Don Chi Sau, relaxed and heavy arms

[urban tea]

I'd like to discuss a little bit about don chi sau.

Let's say I am on top (sounds dirty doesn't it? haha) with my fok sau.

1. I have seen people try to be heavy handed and press down.
2. I have seen people try to be "soft" and have their fok sau barely touching
3. I learned to relax my entire arm and let it REST on the other guy.

Which ones do you guys do?

As for as #2, the miconception there is that people are trying to be soft and relaxed by barely touching. However, being relaxed is in the arms and shoulders. When totally relaxed your arm rests on the other persons arms, hence " heavy arms." For example, resting your hand on the coffee table. All of your hand is on the table, not a single muscle is holding it up at all. Many try to be soft. Their wrists , arms and elbows are relaxed but the small part in their shoulder isn't because they are barely touching on their fok sau.

Of course #1 is wrong. I would say #3 is the correct way. If the opponent removes his arm, my arm would fall down because there is nothing to support it.


any thoughts...

[Alpha Dog]

Why would you rest your fuk? is it tired? maybe you would like to lie down? :p :cool: :rolleyes: :eek: ;) :)

[kj]

Originally posted by urban tea
If the opponent removes his arm, my arm would fall down because there is nothing to support it.

If the opponent removes their arm, I would prefer to hit them. ;)
- kj

[Marshdrifter]

Ah, Dan Chi Sao. This is, for me, one of the most interesting drills
in Wing Chun. It always points out just how much I'm probably
missing in all of the other drills. I always have trouble trying to
explain this drill.

I'd say that of the three options, the one I like the most would
be number three. I don't like calling it "rest" though. It seems
to lead one to believe that you just let the other guy support
your arm. As I understand it, that would be wrong. As KJ said,
you'd want to be able to hit the person if they dropped their arm.
Just resting on the arm may create a good sticking quality, but
one doesn't just want to blindly stick.

OTOH, that would be a good way to teach someone to stick then
you could teach them when it's good to not blindly stick.

Hmmm... stuff to think about...

[red5angel]

I would say all o fthem are incorrect. You can be relaxed without "resting" your arm on your partners. Relaxed touch, follow your opponents arm mainting light but steady and consistant pressure.

[Starbuck]

We train to keep a relaxed forward pressure with Fuk Sau (and Tan Sau and Bong Sau) during sticky hands. This is so if an opening presents itself our arm will automatically start moving forward. Also it trains the other person to keep correct positioning because if they are out of alignment my hand will shoot forward.

This relaxed pressure originates from the elbows. If you think about pressing forward at the point of contact (i.e. with the wrist) you will be too stiff to react quickly and usually end up pressing down instead anyway. By keeping the elbow in, one creates a forward pressure in the forearm and wrist via induction. This is just like the way that keeping your knees in and your hips rotated up creates an inductive force down through your legs in the goat stance.

I was taught to think of my arms as feelers, like an insect's antennae. An insect moves its antennae from the base but the ends are flexible in order to feel around and detect what's going on. Hope this helps and makes sense. :D

[urban tea]

Maybe I should have been a bit clearer.

The reason I say that if the opponent removes his arms and mine should drop ..is because that is a way to TEST if your arm is totally relaxed.

Of course I forgot to mention a little bit of forward pressure, using the elbow force, to capture the opponents point of force.

redangel,

If you have a relaxed "touch" that would leave you open to be hit easily...

Yes you can be somewhat relaxed without resting but you cannot be totally relaxed in the shoulder area without resting.

To try this, rest your right hand on a table. Take your left hand and place it a few inches below your right collar bone, just where it ends ( near the shoulder).

Now if you left your arm, you will feel a muscle tighten up. That muscle is what is holding you back from "resting" totally on someone's arm.

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To summarize... resting on the opponents arm with a bit of fwd pressure to capture his force.

[red5angel]

Urban Tea - Relaxed can be in many degrees. Its like when they tell you to relax during SLT, you dont go limp, but you try to relax your muscles, use just your elbow to drive your fist, hands, whatever.
Same thing, in Dan Chi, you relax your arm, there should be light pressure and both people should strive to meet each other, This creates a sensitive touch. If I am on top and you go down, ad I dont stop when you do, I tense up, and you have me. If I am too relaxed, my hand leaves yours and I am now open. If I am resting my hand on yours then you have control. does this make sense?

[anerlich]

Total absence of tension in the shoulder is impractical. IMO one strives not for total absence of tension, but absence of unnecessary tension.

"Resting" your fuk arm on the other guy's gives him neuromuscular information that he can exploit. He feels the downward pressure and can remove his supporting arm and attack over the top of your arm.

As others have said, the aim in CS is to cultivate an attitude of constant forward pressure that turns into an immediate strike if the opponent's pressure is removed. Any pressure in any other direction (be it by your own musculature, or by gravity alone) indicates a potential hole to the opp. Of course the game comes from exposing false openings and enticing a reaction from the opponent that you can exploit.

No one ever won a fight just by being more relaxed than the opponent. They won fights by hitting. Your intention has to be matched physiologically as well as mentally.

[red5angel]

Anerlich - well said! I would like to add that as long as you and your opponent have good contact, you know where each other is and intent. Once an arm gets tense or 'disappears' then something is going to happen and you strike!

[Miles Teg]

HI!
I used to practice at a school that used the soft touch and now I go to a school that uses forward pressure so I thought I would comment on the differences I found.
First of all obviously the soft approach that I practiced is probably completely different to what Red5angel does. He said they apply light pressure and the one I did applied no pressure we were just touching.

1.First of all when I trained at the soft school and we did dan chi sao sometimes senior students would pull away there arm to make sure you would go forward and punch once there is an opening, just to test you. With me and my fellow students it was not an instant reaction, we had to think for an instant and then strike. It was still faster than using our eyes because it was feeling.

After practicing at the other school for a while, if someone pulled away, my arm would just go forward, no thinking, before I new what I was doing my arm just went.

2. At the old school after doing it for a while our arms got very tired but at the new one I could go for hours.

3. At the old one both parties had to be doing it the same way or else your arm would become very uncomfortable and you would have to correct that person and say your arm should be here or whatever.
At the new one it doesn't matter you would just go through there structure or something like that.

Basically there seem to be many illusions that people have about forward pressure. One is that you are using strength or muscle, that is not true I was using much less muscle using forward pressure. Even if applying a lot of forward pressure your arm should be more relaxed than if you were holding your arm in the air.

Sometimes when I chi sao people who are really good it feels like they are putting all there weight on my arms so it feels like downward energy but it isn't, its just their elbows sinking, the moment you release or try to go round their arms naturally go forward.

[yuanfen]

Let's say I am on top (sounds dirty doesn't it? haha) with my fok sau.
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haha? Dirty? A missionary witha sense of humor?
missionaries just don"t get it.
so sez the sutras

[CLOUD ONE]

Urban tea- Who feels the heaviness? you or your partner?