Should spiritual/moral teaching be part of kung fu? [Archive]

Hai_To

04-18-2002, 09:56 AM

I agree with you to an extent. You don't necessarily need to study Buddhism or Taoism in order to learn kung fu (though some people think otherwise). However, you do need a moral foundation. I'm not talking about learning a specific philosophy, but learning to be a good person.

Most people practice martial arts because they wish to become a better person. That could be simply getting into better shape, learning an art that is hundreds of years old, spirtual development or to kick @ss. Kung fu is a personal journey of growth during which a Sifu should offer guidance, but certainly should not force their own belief system on to their students.

Ultimately, you are learning a way to hurt people. Without a little guidance, all that has been done is to unleash a potential predator. A teacher should not spend their time building a better bully.

yutyeesam

04-18-2002, 10:21 AM

yeah, it's really a bad idea.
my first kung-fu training was at a school that was part of the christian martial arts association. my sifu at the time gave me a christmas card that said "Love in Christ and Kung-Fu"...nevermind the fact that i was raised under hinduism&islam.

i foolishly later went to an aikido school that was again part of some christian martial arts thing, and the sensei, or soke or whatever was also the preacher for their "bible sundays" that all the students went to at the dojo (if you didn't go, he kinda looked at yuh funny).

what is this infatuation with imposing religion into martial arts?

But is there a legal obligation for teachers to have some sort of moral code of conduct? Let me give an example that happened here in my hometown. Guy learned MA from Sensei X at Sensei X's dojo. The guy was a bouncer, and killed a dude trying to restrain him. The courts were trying to go after Sensei X because sensei x taught those killing moves (which was really, just a kick to the face any Tae Bo person could do). Sensei X was able to get out of the whole ordeal by saying that they have a moral code of conduct that is heavily promoted at the school.
Weird, eh? Nevermind the legal disclaimer that everyone signs, its that moral code of conduct that stood out.

anyways...

KC Elbows

04-18-2002, 10:27 AM

Many teachers didn't accept students who weren't of good moral character. This sort of bypasses the idea that one must be taught wude, and becomes one must have wude.

I see where people are coming from, and I respect the view, but it is my opinion that morals take as much if not more discipline than kung fu, and thus a teacher would need to have a pretty detailed lesson plan to cover that.

To be skillful in kung fu and morality is still mastery of two things. I do not remember the saying about having a foot in two boats, but it seems like that applies here.

While I have seen kung fu teachers that(to me) had sublime skill, I have yet to meet one who I would choose over an arhat/saint in matters of morality, but I guess that's me picking nits.:D

EDIT:

Not saying that there are no kung fu teachers of high moral character, just saying that those I've met were no more skilled in moral thinking that any other group I've met.

Dark Knight

04-18-2002, 10:40 AM

I try to add personal growth, a way of improving your life or looking at life.

Dark Knight

04-18-2002, 10:50 AM

Developing an authentic lifestyle-one that truly reflects what is important to you in all areas of life-- is a work of art. It is your personal statement to the world. Are you creating your masterpiece with both the intention and attention a great artist gives her creation?

Reflecting on the ideas and manipulating the materials over time, the artist begins to clarify the vision and, as the piece emerges, watches-refining his or her ideas, adding this, discarding that, reworking the other part, until the materials begin to match the vision. Once the realization of the dream is glimpsed, work accelerates, and joy and passion carry the piece to completion-again, much like our lives.

Few artists receive their inspiration from attempting to fulfill someone else's idea of what the clay, paint, rock, notes, words, fabric or wood might become. Imitation in art is only the tool of the student as the techniques are learned. The truly authentic work of art must come from within the artist, through the techniques and media, into reality. Similarly, you cannot live the dreams of your parents, the desires of your friends or the visions of another with passion and integrity.

Great artists understand that their art is their personal expression, and is, therefore, unique. The artist values the medium for its potential to express the idea. The artist works diligently with it-keeping the vision in view, making small adjustments, learning new techniques, experimenting-until the vision emerges in concrete form and becomes an extension of the artist. It is visible then to all who care to look. The piece bears the artist's name and influences all who view it. Sometimes, pieces do not please the artist and they are reworked, painted over, melted down, unraveled. These pieces have great inherent value. The artist's vision is clarified, the materials better understood. This contributes much to the next project, the next work of art.

Sometimes, pieces become a legacy and influence many by their existence. These are the authentic works, the true expressions of the artist. These are the quality pieces, as Willa A. Foster, says, "Quality is never an accident; it is the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives." You want your life to be of quality, filled with wise choices. Therefore, approach it with high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution.

When creating a work of art, you must be present with it, fully engaged each moment, totally absorbed by the possibility you are actualizing and the potential you are exploring. This intense focus is required if you are not to be distracted by the myriad of seductive, and easy to justify diversions. It is a powerful process-uplifting, inspiring, sometimes frustrating, satisfying, and, most of all, creative. When you are making a success of something, it's not work. It's a way of life.

Now, if by chance, you are thinking that viewing your life as a work of art, or a lofty contribution to the world, is impractical compared to a factual time-management, goal-oriented, bottom-line approach, please consider this. Every successful business, organization and corporation has both types of leaders, visionaries and administrators. Both are required. You need to be both visionary and administrator in your own life. to live a life of integrity, of wholeness. After all, would you prefer your life to be a fleeting statistic, or a memorable piece of performance art?

apoweyn

04-18-2002, 11:12 AM

well, the moral and spiritual authority of a clergyman is very contingent on whether you share their views, right? if i'm not a christian, then i'm not going to regard the moral determinations of a priest or vicar with any more conviction than i would the determinations of anyone else i deem to be a 'good' person.

it's a tough question because. if nobody but the clergy take it upon themselves to provide moral or spiritual guidance, then we only get one picture. parents should certainly do so as well. but 'should' and 'do' are not the same thing as often as we'd like.

i don't know. lots of spiritual leaders stepped up to the plate, taking the chance that they had something genuine and important to offer. some where right. some were wrong.

ghandi was a lawyer for pity's sake. but he saw a situation and sought to rectify it. he took it upon himself, accepted responsibility, and did it.

so do i think that a sifu should, by definition, be a moral and spiritual leader? absolutely not. i've been at this long enough to know that martial artists are at least as flawed a population as any other. perhaps moreso.

but would i ever tell a sifu that he had no right? i don't think so. the judgment to follow such a person remains ours. but if nobody takes it upon themselves to make a difference, then what changes?

stuart b.

KC Elbows

04-18-2002, 12:48 PM

Wow. Great posts, on all sides of the issue.:)

Cody

04-18-2002, 01:06 PM

so do i think that a sifu should, by definition, be a moral and spiritual leader? absolutely not. i've been at this long enough to know that martial artists are at least as flawed a population as any other. perhaps moreso.
The above, written by apoweyn, is valid for me. I comment below.

We should be taught how to think for ourselves, even though it can be easier to idolize or worship another's views. Walking the walk and talking the talk is not a substitute for the real thing, which might have a very different appearance (in terms of the martial performance and lives of teachers and students).

While there are certainly times when leadership is necessary; at some point, if people don't lead their own Minds and Energy, can they maintain control of them as they should? (no. imo)

Whether one studies with a monk (or other accredited spiritual leader) or not, the choice to follow the religious or moral beliefs of another (as Practiced by that person as well), should honestly be up to the student, rule by rule. Maybe that could block some opportunities. But, such honesty might be acceptable even without acceptance of all principles, and then we could have something special, or not.

I have defined myself as an atheist and iconoclast in the past. But, that doesn't mean I have no standards and that I don't take them seriously.
In martial arts, especially, I believe the student, in fact all in that venue, must take responsibility for everything they do, say and think.
No one should bear false witness against another.
No one should use or view another person (in or outside of class) as an object, or piece of meat. Respect for body, mind and spirit, regardless of station.
Intent, both emotional and rational, should be homework for all students. With the study of intent, should come modulation of behavior, such that suitable action occurs, without thought. To learn how to judge the intent of others, as well.
Letting one's self Feel completely in a martial situation, and then dealing with it. Being given the time to grow in this way.
Never taking pleasure in the suffering of others. Learning compassion for the physical and emotional suffering of the self and others.
Knowing one's limitations and respecting them, and learning how to compensate for them or overcome them it that is possible.

The basics, without preaching. I don't believe much of anything else should be Required. I say this in the event that I have left out a detail, such as gratitude to those who preceded me and built that upon which I stand. Yet, with other factors related to the culture, upbringing, personal beliefs of a Sifu (or the martial arts community from which he/she is descended), the topic of this thread can become a problem. In saying this, I'm not finding fault with the beliefs or practices of others, I'm just saying that I hold with what I said above, and not much more.

I think, unless one is looking for specific spiritual teaching along with martial training, that all we really want is to be taught by a good and able person who wants the best for us and for the community. And, only this that is asking for quite a bit.

Cody

Mutant

04-18-2002, 03:33 PM

This is an interesting issue. And its actually a very important one.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. In a different thread I commented on how i think that potentially dangerous techniques shouldnt be taught to bad people. I still think that is true, but hopefully issues like that can be solved by the teacher just having good character judgement and intuition. I think that quality martial arts practice and the dedication and difficult training that is involved can or will inherently provide character development and respect. Beyond that, I don't think there is much, or should be, coorellation between fighting and spirituallity.

If someone is seeking spiritual development intertwined with martial arts, that is available in many traditional Taoist and Buddist systems, and thats great if thats what someone is specifically looking for.

Beyond that though, I think it can be really harmful and counter-productive for the student to be subjected to what can essentially be forms of brainwashing as theyre learning MA. It is because this learning involves some reformatting of thought processes, a certain amount of faith in the material that is being studied, which can often seem 'mystical' from their untrained vantage point, accompanied by euphoric feelings as people begin to feel more in control of their bodies and environment...i think this is a time when people can be extra vulnerable to predatory instructors....who may try to abuse their powerful position over the student and instill their own potentially warped philosophy or 'spirituality'. Its not right to mess with a students head while theyre in this transition to propogate your own ideals. I believe that 'cult' schools are able to exist and operate by preying on students in this fashion. In fact, they distort what martial arts actually are to the point where students think that their dogma is part of developing themselves into martial artists. The uninitiated beginners may not be able to perceive the difference. In the end they are seriously messed up mentally and still may not be able to defend themselves. This can ruin their future as a martial artist, and seriously mess with their mental health.

I came to these conclusions by thinking about weird schools and teachers I have encountered over the years....and by stopping in earlier this week at a Oom Yung Doe school that I found near where I work....I stopped by, spoke with the instructor briefly and took some of their literature to read.....it is pure dog-sh!t brainwashing, nothing more, nothing less....i was actually kind of freaked out by their literature, it has nothing to do with martial arts and fighting, but all about distorting reality and manipulating peoples heads....and there are more OYD schools (& apperently students) and other similarly shady MA organizations out there than there are good kung fu schools, which is freakin scary....that is why it can be harmful to mix too much spirtuality with martial training....it is clear to me now.

Cody

04-18-2002, 04:46 PM

Your discussion of student vulnerability is sensitive and well said. I think that little attention is paid to this opening up and trusting of a teacher, organization, even the unknown of the self (especially when we are talking about teens). I touched on that when I mentioned thinking for one's self, or losing it. What I said, I meant literally.

Now, as to spirituality. Well, that gets tricky. See, I believe that martial arts does encompass one's spiritual being (speaking from an atheistic point of view). It can be studied without attention to that, but past a certain point, I feel it is something to be dealt with as a practicality. Even without a spiritual belief system, it is there for me. For some, the learning along these lines begins quite early, which is kind of going backwards, but ....
While I also do not approve of spiritual indoctrination if that is not what the student wants for its own sake, I hope that in trying to insulate yourself from unwanted inundation from both bogus and accepted traditional spiritual sources, that you not throw out the baby with the bath water.

The development of self of which you speak goes very deep, including and past the rational mind and primal nature, to what I call spirit, for want of a better word for it.

It is an inward meditation, which yields automatic action of many components. The meditation takes place in static stance training, and in motion, as one discovers one's energies and emotions and intents. It is feeling one's energies apart from others, and learning how to use them and when.

A teacher's interference with this (beyond careful direction), whether it be to block it or give false confidence, or play games, can be immensely harmful. No spiritual system need be touted in order for this to occur, but if there is, we can add another order of magnitude to the results. All that is required is that the teacher (himself, or as an agent of whatever) sits in absolute judgment of those who not only learn from the teacher, but serve teacher's ends, which are said to be correct in the highest sense of the words, hence a moral leadership with or without formal religious training being included. Then, what we can have is a diversion from self discovery and control into a dogged willingness to be molded into what the teacher instructs -- subject matter, but also an abnormal degree of subordination, which can amount to a cult of personality -- while presenting a relatively unremarkable appearance.

So, while forced spiritual indoctrination is not my way either, and I do understand that there are places to go for voluntary training in both a spiritual system and martial arts, I would ask that you might take into consideration what for me is a fact, and what for you and others might be a possibility or not even that much, and then, generally or only connected with a codified system of spiritual education.

I see you are targeting some pretty nasty stuff, and calling attention to it. Very well.

While I don't agree on all you said, I think you made pertinent observations which spurred me to think more deeply.

Cody

joedoe

04-18-2002, 05:30 PM

I think teachers should encourage their students not to get into fights and teach them when it is appropriate to use their skills and when to walk away.

As for deeper spiritual/moral stuff, I think it is dependant on whether the teacher is willing to teach it and if the student is looking to the teacher for guidance on it. It should never be forced on a student, and neither should it be expected from a teacher.

HuangKaiVun

04-18-2002, 10:02 PM

Regardless of the trappings of the religion, there HAS to be spiritual teaching in martial training.

If anything, the more brutal the art the more self-control must be taught.

I know that often in my early training, I'd get so choked up with rage that I'd literally tear myself apart from within. I never had a teacher that could truly guide me to higher levels - but I'll say that Yoda helped me more with that than any live sifu did.

All the power in the world is useless without the ability to control it and use it properly. If nothing else, spiritual training helps train the body to withstand the mental rigors of true martial training. To me, it's just as important in a training session as being properly hydrated.

I object to teachers who do things like demand that students recite Buddhist sutras or do Bible study when that wasn't part of the lesson arrangement, but I don't mind if my martial arts instructor happens to be deeply religious.

And if a martial arts teacher is of questionable moral fiber, his abilities are definitely questionable as well.

Cody

04-19-2002, 08:16 AM

As per my previous posts on this thread, while I separate spirituality from codified religion (or even a belief in God), and prefer a different outlook in other ways as well, we are in fundamental agreement in terms of self control (via introspection). Indeed, attention to the whole person is necessary to produce the best possible quality of performance and quality of life, as a result of relative agreement of thought, feeling and deed with the essence of what we are as individuals.

Cody

KC Elbows

04-19-2002, 09:22 AM

I agree that a martial artist should have morality, but I do not necessarily agree that it must be learned at a kung fu school. If an individual already has high morality, where are they going to find a teacher who both surpasses them in morality and has the skills to teach them kung fu?

Of the teachers I have had, only one would I say has higher moral standards than I do. Not that I'm morally superior to others, I'm just an ordinary person, just saying they were no on superior ground. Some of those teachers were very skilled teachers and martial artists, and I have found no correlation between moral virtue and martial skill whatsoever.

I've also had a teacher who held back knowledge from me because he thought I was getting into fights. I did not know he thought this, he didn't talk to me about it, he just held back knowledge. When I found this out, that was it. He assumed he was my moral teacher and put HIMSELF in a moral quandary because of it. My puppy scratched my fave to get me to let her out, and all of a sudden, because I like sparring and am big, I'm some thug to him.

I'm not even sure the traditional argument that the old masters were such pillars of virtue is true, either. I've heard plenty of referrences to Yang Cheng Fu being pretty surly. Nonetheless, he was a paragon of tai chi. Weren't many of the ancient masters members of triads, bodyguards of opium shipments, or just plain bad@sses who didn't take cr@p from anyone?

The only relation I can see between moral virtue and kung fu ability is that the moral tend not to get themselves killed as often as the immoral, and so live to fight another day. But, the immoral tend to have more fighting experience, so those that survive long enough probably know their stuff pretty well.

I myself believe in only teaching those with morals, and only teaching them kung fu. Once I feel I am skilled enough, that will be my criteria for choosing students. Since I will teach six elbows as I have been taught it, free except for the blood and sweat, I need not worry about how many students I have, or what teaching method I use, and I can spend time teaching them kung fu, and not split it up with moral lessons.

At the same time, there are philosophies that underly the arts that are important to teach, such as softness vs. hardness, that can apply to moral situations, but I will just tell the students that these things are said to apply to more than just martial arts, but that the side of them that I know is martial arts, and that is what I will teach.

Ryu

04-19-2002, 10:39 AM

"but it is my opinion that morals take as much if not more discipline than kung fu,"

You better believe it.

Ryu

HuangKaiVun

04-19-2002, 07:38 PM

I aspire to be a sifu soon.

When I go out and teach people, there'll be no mention of God or Buddha or Tao or the Force or anything.

I'll just train and expect people to work hard and have fun. This is because I believe that good clean fun teaches spirituality and morality better than anything. The rest will come of its own accord without my prodding.

What higher living is there than a life well lived?

CanadianBadAss

04-19-2002, 08:00 PM

MA + spiritual/moral teaching = cult

Stacey

04-19-2002, 09:17 PM

a Sifu- indoor student relationship can be an intense mentoral relationship, to completely deny that part of them is like denying sexuality. Its a lie. I have mentioned things I have felt to my Sifu and he simply tells me that these things are normal and leaves it at that. No mystification, but my Sifu is the most centered person I know who might even understand what I'm talking about without ridiculing me. I respect that he doens't intrude on my beliefs, I feel safe as a student and thats very important to me. He also talks about jing and not doing certain chi kung after I have been....active. He teaches us kung fu, but also helps us develop holistically, he wants to see us become better people. He asks the students about their grades and study habbits, time management etc and gives them pointers on efficiency. Is this cult? I don't think so, he teaches, but does so to teach us freedom. To see past worries, which also ties into kung fu.

can you really seperate it?

Cody

04-20-2002, 09:00 AM

My views are not solidified, meaning that I can't define all my terms. So, please have patience with vagueness.

While I do not advocate spiritual or certain kinds of moral teachings as part and parcel of martial arts training, I tend to feel that there is a component which could be called the spirit of a human being, like a kernel or essence of that person. Development, not only via martial arts, might change how this acts in the world, in method and force. It would be much easier if I could attribute that which I sense to a higher, conscious diety or deified power. But, I don't. Maybe it's just another part of mind, along with the rational and the primal, but I have a doubt. I'm not sure about this essence, which if there are multiple lifetimes, goes from one to the next, while the trappings might change. This is something I must become aware of on my own.

When I studied T'ai Chi, the raising of the spirit was mentioned, my search mechanism went on and I found something which had always been there, dormant, asleep. I felt more comfortable and progressed with some of the instruction of Takuan Soho. I still feel quite blind, yet confident that this componet in us needs to be recognized, indeed acknowledged as the source of our innate developing character, which can and does function on autopilot. So, when I speak of not ignoring the spirit in MA, I am meaning this, and not dogma. That is how I see things for myself.

I think another confusion in some quarters might be the association between MA and monks. In my opinion, the type of focussing engaged in, including turning inward, was more relevant in terms of what we discuss. In fact, in my view, that is all that is relevant, techniques and concentration, not specific religious or moral beliefs.

While martial arts can be legitimately taught and learned without attention to this area, and for quick training for self defense or soldiering that might be the case, when studying in other venues, it seems like a good idea to at least include the concept and deal with it, especially as it is sometimes right out there in the literature. I realize that not everyone will see this as I do, or find it as necessary as I do. cause different people have different needs. Just my opinion, from experience and from what I've seen.

Cody

rubthebuddha

04-20-2002, 11:31 AM

i think the sifu-todai relationship should have a moral bend as well as one of physical improvement, martial, emotional, mental and otherwise.

i think it comes down to expectations. if i go to some college taekwondo class and the instructor there is just some person who learned the art in the past, fine. my expectation is that the class will be totally low-key and focus more on gross physical movements and just get people moving.

my expectations will be a little higher with your garden-variety mcdojo, but not much. they're there to make a buck using the skills they having -- martial arts. what i gleen from their teachings will probably not be much deeper than general exposure to the movements and theories of the art.

my expectations with a real sifu/sensei -- a person who has earned the title -- are much higher. i wouldn't go to a sifu if he wasn't of high moral character. i wouldn't support him if he didn't try to improve me in similar ways. my expectation is that, if he wishes to teach me, he will teach me what he knows -- good strikes, good defenses, physical discipline, emotional control, mental stability and probably spiritual awareness (more on that in a sec).

basically, if i wanted to be a fighter, i'd go to a gym and have someone teach me to beat the crap out of someone. but my goals are different, and i have my own kung fu instructors (not just one, but my sihings and sijes) to bring that into my life.

now the spiritual awareness? my sisok provides knowledge about philosophies, perspectives and other goodies. he doesn't preach one doctrine, but he encourages us to find what's best for ourselves and seek ways to get more from our lives, be better people to others and improve all things around us.

so spiritual guidance? i'd personally say leave that to the experts. moral guidance? i don't think you can have a good teacher who doesn't have good character of their own.

Asia

04-20-2002, 01:23 PM

This a good topic. One in which I have ranted on for YEARS!!! I hear constantly things like "MA builds character." "A MArtist has to be a highly moral person", etc. None of which holds any truth.

Ones character is definited by the sum of his experiences. MA maybe part of those experiences but it will most likely NOT be a major factor.

Although I would want someone who has the skill to seriously casuse harm to someone to be a moral person there is NO governing body that says it must be so. WHO decides who becomes a MArtist or not?

MA instructors are not really equiped to judge a person's moral character. Most pple attend MA training 2~3 times a week for about 1~2 hours. This is NOT enought time to truly judge someone. Unless it is a uchideshi,backdoor student type relationship it would be hard to get an accurate account of a person.

MA is about fighting!! No matter how you dress it up the bottom line is to defeat an opponent. I do NOT know of a MA that does NOT contain PHYSICAL means of doing this. Therefore being a 'spiritual' or 'moral' person does NOT have much to do with Martial skill!! Think that "I must be spiritual to master MA" is plain HOGWASH. So far NOONE has proven me wrong!:D

bamboo_ leaf

04-20-2002, 07:50 PM

Please read what you have just said, and think of the officers in charge of n-subs and fighter pilots.

Their training and schools are designed as such that only the people with the right stuff ever make it to positions if of power and control over the most advanced weapons systems in the world.

When we talk of life and death, some call it treading the knifes edge, there needs to be something to balance out the training. I think with out it something is lost and you become like a mad dog, even biting the hand that feeds it.

All the sifu here that I have met will not teach you anything if they feel that your character is suspect. This is what is most valued, fighting is no big deal. Most people can fight before they learn anything; the training only improves on what’s there already.

I think when things are transplanted such as CMA, with out the cultural checks and balances it loses something in the process. I would even say that some of the higher level skills would be inaccessible with out understanding and adopting some of the belief systems as your own or haveing some type of spritle refeance point

Asia

04-21-2002, 04:24 AM

When we talk of life and death, some call it treading the knifes edge, there needs to be something to balance out the training. I think with out it something is lost and you become like a mad dog, even biting the hand that feeds it.

This is LIFE. Your LIFE should have balance. Anyone will try to find balance in there life. MA training doesn't need balance because its purpose is simple. It just one aspect in a persons life. Tell me ONE person that does NOTHING but MA training all the time! You can't because we will find other things to balance our LIFE out NOT our MA training.

All the sifu here that I have met will not teach you anything if they feel that your character is suspect. This is what is most valued, fighting is no big deal. Most people can fight before they learn anything; the training only improves on what’s there already.

That is great of your sifus. I personally would not want to give a criminal tools to more effectively do his mayhem BUT I am willing to bet that your sifus ARE NOT counselors, social workers, shrinks, or professional unable to juge a persons character. If the aspects of combat are NOT the main focus of your MA instruction then you are being cheated!!! (FACT and LOGIC see how it works)

Think of this: There is VERY little governing on who can learn and teach MA. BUT there is A LOT of systems in place to govern pple who are PROFESSIONALLY qualified to Judge and Shape pple moral character.

Realize what you are doing pple. You are learning a system of COMBAT unless you are in one of the systems like, Shorinji Kempo (this system is recognized as a RELIGION as well as a MA) you will NOT become Preist. You will NOT become professionally qualified to judge pple. As well as YOUR training does NOT have to encompass spiritual, moral, etc teachings unless you want it to.

guohuen

04-21-2002, 07:38 AM

Having worked in both corrections and mental health I feel confident that no group of people (social workers, councilors, shrinks) are worse qualified than these. These are usually people whom led sheltered lives and did nothing but go to school to learn there trade. Usually taught by those that did the same thing. Most of what they know is book knowledge and much of that is garbage. These are the people that release the prisoners on furlough that go out and commit more crimes. On the other hand people who have walked the walk rather than talk the talk usually can smell shiite when it's nearby. As for a warrior needing morals, I'd say that at least in the case of a team this is essential. I've certainly learned more from "lay" people than from "profesionals". Heck even in the airborne rangers they had behavior standards. If you were ever even arrested you were out of there.

DelicateSound

04-21-2002, 10:51 AM

I believe that the theory that martial arts are connected with morality is in reality, a myth. I know many martial artists who are irrational, mindless and unable to control their behaviour.

However, due to the nature of martial arts, a good moral-foundation is pretty necessary, especially in children.

Do I believe that Sifu's should "preach"? No. That's not why I paid my money. However, we all need guidance from time to time and I'd like to think that my Sifu would be ready to offer guidance if asked for. However, [as guohuen said] great wisdom is often found in places we least expect, and status rarely reflects ones inner virtues.

However, the type of people that seek spiritual guidance are not really the ones that need it the most.

That make any sense? [BTW Nice post KC!] :D

Leimeng

04-22-2002, 10:39 AM

~Every person in the world lives by some sort of religious belief. It might be a theistic or a-theistic system, but they still order their lives around it. Faith
~Most people it seems are very unsure of what sort of belief system they really have. Insecurity/fear
~An instructor/master of any given school lives their life in accordance with their belief system. Some belief systems are agressive, some passive. Faith in action.
~Some systems are based on religions belief systems. Aikido being one. Holism
~Some schools have religious items taught as part of the system without openly advocating that religion. (Incense in a shrine or protection of GuanYin, or Taoist talismen/charms.)
~There is nothing inheirantly wrong with a system or instructor advocating one religious belief over another as long as they are honest about it and willing to let students make their own decisions. Free will.
~I am a practioner of chinese martial arts. I have studied for many years and do have a few students. I am by my nature an evangelical Christian. When I discuss faith with my students on class brothers, it is out of concern for them as a human being. I have no problem at all sharing my art with a mormon, buddhist, muslim, atheist at all. However, when we discuss physical techniques and martial applications or develpment, there is no time for faith discussions. Keeping the focus on the task at hand is what is neccessary.
~When discussing moral implications of various martial systems, I use Christian morality as my reference point. I am also quite familiar with the buddhist, taoist and other religious reference systems. Some times I might use them as well.
~A martial arts class taught at a local church would probably teach Christian values.
~If you don't like hearing a religious belief enspoused, I recommend finding another place to study or developing your self esteem. The worse thing to do is deny others their rights and beliefs so that you can feel "comfortable".

Peace

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

Cody

04-22-2002, 01:00 PM

Leimeng, I think we might find common ground, as a group, along the following lines. That being, if you want to mix martial arts with upfront religious teaching and/or teaching of certain kinds of morality in the kwoon, then find that resource.
But, some of us here wouldn't thrive in this scenario and are stating why. The strong opinions that have been expressed do not deny a martial-religious package for those so inclined, for the simple reason that we are free to find what we want. There's room for both, and there's lots in between. This discussion has been excellent.

The fact that some take issue with your views, is no reason to write sweeping judgments as to how "every" or "most" other people believe or have faith. Some people have little faith in much of anything outside of finding out who one is and acting according to that. Not everyone has a faith system or a faith anything. Having a handfull of personal standards does not constitute a system. And, as faith implies a difficulty or impossibility of proof at the time, it it no wonder that insecurity or fear could be present. It's normal. But, faith can survive that and does. So, big deal.

There is nothing inherently the matter with an instructor advocating a belief system in the proper environment for this. Free will. Well, if you don't go along with this instructor's views, that could be to your disadvantage, in terms of your training. It's one thing for a teacher to have a personal faith, and another to advocate that faith or, even moreso, to advocate it over another one. As such, this becomes part of the training, and to reject it would, in my view, have consequences, unless the situation were quite unusual.

guohuen, I see your point. I would add that the ability to size someone up differs quite a bit on an individual basis too.

Book knowledge is no substitute for being out there; the learning that is based on books, not on prior or concurrent life experience(with books as a backup to consider questions that come up), might not prevail. If you learn from a book first and have strict a framework firmly in mind, it might not allow for keener observation at a later time. The tendency towards independent evaluation might be stymied, with the result of pigeonholing. However, it's a fast way to teach and confer degrees. Good comes from this too, though. It's a mix. There's good stuff in the books too.

Anyone can be fooled. The ability to look into another person's heart and see what they're about exists independently of whether you're in the trenches, in kwoon, or at university. I think that one can develop certain skills in determining the aggressive potential or intentions of another person in an encounter as one trains for this, but determination of character goes a lot further than that. So, I'm kind of agreeing with you and disagreeing with you at the same time.

DelicateSound, I concur especially with your first paragraph. I've not been pleased with what I've seen... . I guess what I would hope is that martial arts would provide a venue for every student to become the best that he/she is and will be, without adherence to certain kinds of morality teachings. My views are much simpler than the lists of rules. Unfortunately, the kind of person who would teach this way, I think, is not easily found, and the way the training would commence and continue would be time-consuming and energy intensive. Current world doesn't seem to be built for this. Too big, too fast, too much thrill seeking on a large scale.

enough for now,
Cody

scotty1

04-23-2002, 01:58 AM

I think it is a matter of knowing what you are getting into before you get into it. Having prior knowledge, through asking, of the instructors opinion of espousing his views in class has got to be an advantage.

My instructor never even mentions morality. He is teaching me how to fight, and if he started to use lesson time to talk about morality/spirituality I would view that as a waste of money and time because that isn't what I'm there for. That is not to say I don't think he is a good person.

However someone who believed that they were going to get some spirituality off their instructor and then didn't may also feel shortchanged.

I do think that certain MA due to a combination of factors, like the perseverance necessary for advancement, seem to attract people who are not, shall we say, thugs or scumbags.

In answer to the question 'Should spiritual/moral teaching be part of kung fu?' I would say no, as that would imply a compulsory part of the teaching to be moral/spiritual.

It is good for Kung Fu that there are different teachers and students, with different views, so there is choice available.

But as far as making spiritual/moral teaching a mandatory part of Kung Fu training, I think that is not necessary, and would turn a lot of people away. Personally, I wish to learn how to defend myself, I do not want to be preached at. There are plenty of resources for people to do their own research on that, and plenty of people to ask for guidance, including their Sifu if they have chosen wisely.

Also, I don't see why not liking to hear a religious belief espoused in class time has anything to do with self esteem.

Merryprankster

04-23-2002, 02:51 AM

No MA must be accompanied by mandatory spiritual or moral training. Absurd.

Should it? I don't think so. And I don't look up to teacher to do anything but teach me. I'm old enough to decide right and wrong for myself.

Teaching to kids? Yeah, nothing wrong with a little "don't use this except in self defense, be respectful, etc." Of course, if that's no substitute for parental guidance.

SifuAbel

04-23-2002, 03:25 AM

OMG, I'm agreeing with merry, AGAIN. Gulp. :eek:

I don't think spirituality and morality are things that can be taught. There is no teaching a person to be spiritual. He either is or he isn't. You can teach dogma until you are blue in the face, but any true change comes only from within. Not even the monks had a 100% enlightenment rate among the bretheren.

If there is any spirituality to be gained in MA it is in the journey itself. It isn't in anything that is said, it is more in what is understood internally. The training of the body, the forging of the will to persist through hard times. The focus of concentrating all your energy on an objective. The knowlegde that we are all very fragile beings and that we all will eventually met the fate of all mankind and to have empathy for others as the result of this. It is in the insights gained through meditation and quieting the torrents of thought. Dedication, discipline; this perfection is a road, not a destination. The power is in the act, not the word.

To borrow from castaneda, being a warrior has nothing to do with violence or destruction, it simply means that a man should go to knowledge like a man going to war, with sobriety, fear, wakefulness, respect and with absolute confidence. Therefore, those who go to knowledge in this way could very well be called warriors.