Judo wins over Bjj

[Unmatchable]

Judo wins over BJJ/GJJ The following is a list of recent judoka who defeated top BJJ men.

(1) Akira Shoji (Black belt in judo but no title in judo) knocked out Wallid Ismael (8 times BJJ champion who has defeated Renzo Gracie, Ralph Gracie, and Royce Gracie) in R2 in Pride 4.

(2) Igor Zinoviev (Black belt but only a local (NY and NJ) title in judo) defeated Mario Sperry (3 times world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). He knocked out Enson Inoue in 44 seconds in 1996 Vale Tudo Japan.

(3) Don Frye (2nd degree black belt in judo) defeated Amaury Bitetti (1995 world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) by TKO in UFC8. Don Frye spent a lot of time practicing judo before the bout with Amaury Bitetti. Frye knew that by practicing authentic judo, he would be completely prepared to take on the BJJ world champion Amaury Bitetti. That is why Frye looked so confident before the match, and he proved himself as we all know. After Don Frye won the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, Jeff Blatnick said to Frye that " Your submission skills have greatly improved." Frye then said, "I spent a lot of time practicing judo." These top BJJ fighters were unable to submit these totally unknown judoka who had no title in judo and lost the bouts in NHB. If BJJ is so much better than judo, then why did these top names in BJJ failed to apply any submission hold on the ground? The fact is that top BJJ fighters were defeated in NHB matches by no name judoka means that it is not very difficult for highly trained judoka to defend themselves against submission holds. Learn true judo, then you will learn to beat BJJ black belts on the ground.

(4) Yasuichi Ono choked out Jorge Gracie (Helio Gracie's older brother) circa 1950. These are four cases in which no name judoka defeated top BJJ fighters.

(5) Masahiko Kimura (7th dan BB undefeated for 13 years in judo) defeated Helio Gracie (the self-proclaimed founder of Gracie Jiu Jitsu) by breaking two bones in the left arm of Helio, by udegarami. Helio Gracie was hospitalized for multiple fractures. In this bout, Helio was unable to score any counter or reverse. Kimura defeated Helio on the ground using a ground technique which is supposed to be BJJ's strength.

(6) In 1974, Wilhelm Ruska (1972 Olympics judo gold medalist in over 95kg class and absolute division) destroyed Iwan Gomes (then the no. 1 man in BJJ) by punches on the ground in a vale tudo match. (5) and (6) are records of what happened when top BJJ men fought top judoka. In both of these cases, these BJJ men were brave enough to challenge top judoka. But the bouts ended in executions by judoka

[Archangel]

Don Frye was a collegiate wrestler first and foremost. He used a sprawl and a w h i z z e r to defend against Bitteti, then pummeled him with his strikes. The rest of your post is pretty accurate, however I really wouldn't want to use Zinovievs match as a real good example here. He was really getting pummeled in that fight until he landed that knee.

[chokeyouout]

Those were all excellent fights, and yes The Jiu Jitsu guys were defeated.Did you notice they were all by tko or ko?.So I guess the title of the thread should read, "BJJ is defeated by Strikers".

[Ryu]

Hehe
striking judoka!!! :D


sorry.... :)

Ryu

[fightfan]

....or MMA wins over MMA!:rolleyes:
This has to be the weakest attempt at a troll post Ive ever seen.:D

[Merryprankster]

Yep. Gotta agree!

Unmatchable--go take some private lessons from Ralek and Liuke Beston. Come back in a few months. Really. This was bad.

[MA fanatic]

You have used a few examples of people who cross trained defeating some bjj guys. Don Frye was not only a Judo player, he was a top wrestler and a pro boxer. I'd be surprised if he didn't win against a BJJ guy who was under Frye's weight. The fight between Helio and Kimura was never declared a victory for Kimura. I think Kimura won, but even Kimura himself said that the fight should go to Helio who kept on fighting for over three hours with a broken arm. I happen to know some guys who trained with Igor Zinoviev. The guy is a captain of a judo team, an accomplished sambo player (incorporating leg locks Judo is not known for), and a pro kickboxer. It took him almost 45 minutes to defeat Mario Sperry (who dominated and rode Zinoviev like a horse for close to an hour) via cut. The match stopped. Rightfully so, but it wasn't a clean victory. As for Ismael being defeated, yes he was defeated. He was defeated not only by judo guys, but by other bjj guys. Actually, I wouldn't call any of those guys in pride pure bjj or judo. All have cross trained. To start a thread like this really doesn't prove a thing. BJJ guys have lost to pankration, shooto, wrestling, judo and other bjj. What does that prove? It proves that no art is perfect. Any bjj player will tell you that himself.

BJJ and Judo are both martial arts and martial sports. BJJ includes more submissions and including leg locks and focuses on ground grappling. Judo is a stand up, throw focused art with limmited submissions and no leg locks what so ever. Judo players are better on their feet when it comes to throwing. Since points are awarded for pinning in judo, judo guys are good at locking position. However, they are weak when it comes to strictly engaging on the ground. I see judo guys tap all the time to leg locks, and various arm locks and spine locks the sport simply doesn't have. I know bjj guys who cross train in Judo for their throws. I also know at least 15 judo guys who attend our bjj classes for leg locks, and ground game. In judo competitions, should a judoka not want to engage in the ground game post throw which doesn't score an ipon, he can just stand up. In BJJ, the fight continues regardless whether the throw was good or not.

As for which art is more effective, I would have to say it depends on the fighter. However, I have seen far more Judo guys lose to bjj and pancration fighters than BJJ guys lose to judo. Take a look at Renzo Gracie with no world records defeating a World Champion Judo player in 3 minutes (choking him unconsious) in World Combat Championships. How about Royler taking out a russian Judo champion who came into the school to make some money on a challenge match (rent Gracie in Action part 2). How about Rickson grappling with ever Judo player who comes to his seminar (just attend any seminar and see for yourself). Not only does Rickson tap them out, he asks them how they want to be tapped. Those guys actually have a choice of how to lose and they still lose. How about Royce Gracie defeating Remko Pardoe in UFC 2. Remko was European and Hollands Judo and JJ champion. He lost to a basic gi choke in less than five minutes to Royce who has no world ranking in bjj. How about you rent any Abu Dhabi (the ultimate submission only event), and see that no Judoka ever won. BJJ guys dominated (though it was only submission and points for those who control position). How about
the US national Judo champion (just forgot his name) who fought Shamrock and one of Shamrocks students in the UFC, and got clobbered big time (though he did manage to nail one good throw). Stories of Judo guys loosing to bjj fighters in grappling only and bjj are numerous. Just as numerous as stand up guys loosing to bjj guys in NHB. (Just remembered, some members of the Gracie family have entered Judo tournaments and won by Judo rules...just rent Gracie in action 2). Before you begin a thread like that, do some more research.
MA fanatic
PS As for those brave PURE (not those who are pro boxers, wrestlers, and or trained kick boxers) judo warriors you mentioned, I'm still waiting for one to win an NHB event.

[scotty1]

Get this **** off the forum.

[dezhen2001]

so gong fu AND judo are inferior to BJJ :)
:rolleyes:

david

[Repulsive Monkey]

Personally I would always put my money on a seasoned Judoka rather than a BJJ guy anyday of the week. Yes,yes I know, Im sure there will be those who contest that statement, but this is a board of opinions and I freely submit my opinion with that directive in mind.

[guohuen]

I took 200+ lessons in Judo from a man that recieved his 1st and 2nd dan at the Kotokan in '69 & '70 and was taught several strikes. Is this not done now? Am I that far out of the loop?:confused:

[MA fanatic]

Repulsive:
You can put your money on anyone you want. Its your business man. Just be prepared to cash out. If you're into playing the odds, the secret is to go with the fighters who win more often than not. Though a bjj player can in fact lose to judo, for an nhb match, bjj guys are simply more prepared.

For skeptics, just attend classes at Renzo Gracie's school, then attend classes at Swain (olympic judo gold medalist's) school. See which school prepares you for no rules fighting. I think you'll find that 99% of Judo schools teach sport judo only. BJJ schools incorparate self defense, sport bjj (gi and no gi) and vale tudo fighting.

MA fanatic

[stoli]

Hmmm.... let me guess what the next reply to that post is going to be. A **** great list of all the times BJJ has beaten judo??

Well in my opinion both styles have their strengths and weaknesses, I would personally put my money on BJJ if both combatants had done NO OTHER training. A couple of points, Zinoviev, more a striker than a grappler (and in the fight I saw he beat Mario Sperry on a cut), and though Frye is a good judo player he's far more than that, judo is not where his fighting style primarily comes from.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
You have used a few examples of people who cross trained defeating some bjj guys. Don Frye was not only a Judo player, he was a top wrestler and a pro boxer. I'd be surprised if he didn't win against a BJJ guy who was under Frye's weight. The fight between Helio and Kimura was never declared a victory for Kimura. I think Kimura won, but even Kimura himself said that the fight should go to Helio who kept on fighting for over three hours with a broken arm. I happen to know some guys who trained with Igor Zinoviev. The guy is a captain of a judo team, an accomplished sambo player (incorporating leg locks Judo is not known for), and a pro kickboxer. It took him almost 45 minutes to defeat Mario Sperry (who dominated and rode Zinoviev like a horse for close to an hour) via cut. The match stopped. Rightfully so, but it wasn't a clean victory. As for Ismael being defeated, yes he was defeated. He was defeated not only by judo guys, but by other bjj guys. Actually, I wouldn't call any of those guys in pride pure bjj or judo. All have cross trained. To start a thread like this really doesn't prove a thing. BJJ guys have lost to pankration, shooto, wrestling, judo and other bjj. What does that prove? It proves that no art is perfect. Any bjj player will tell you that himself.

BJJ and Judo are both martial arts and martial sports. BJJ includes more submissions and including leg locks and focuses on ground grappling. Judo is a stand up, throw focused art with limmited submissions and no leg locks what so ever. Judo players are better on their feet when it comes to throwing. Since points are awarded for pinning in judo, judo guys are good at locking position. However, they are weak when it comes to strictly engaging on the ground. I see judo guys tap all the time to leg locks, and various arm locks and spine locks the sport simply doesn't have. I know bjj guys who cross train in Judo for their throws. I also know at least 15 judo guys who attend our bjj classes for leg locks, and ground game. In judo competitions, should a judoka not want to engage in the ground game post throw which doesn't score an ipon, he can just stand up. In BJJ, the fight continues regardless whether the throw was good or not.

As for which art is more effective, I would have to say it depends on the fighter. However, I have seen far more Judo guys lose to bjj and pancration fighters than BJJ guys lose to judo. Take a look at Renzo Gracie with no world records defeating a World Champion Judo player in 3 minutes (choking him unconsious) in World Combat Championships. How about Royler taking out a russian Judo champion who came into the school to make some money on a challenge match (rent Gracie in Action part 2). How about Rickson grappling with ever Judo player who comes to his seminar (just attend any seminar and see for yourself). Not only does Rickson tap them out, he asks them how they want to be tapped. Those guys actually have a choice of how to lose and they still lose. How about Royce Gracie defeating Remko Pardoe in UFC 2. Remko was European and Hollands Judo and JJ champion. He lost to a basic gi choke in less than five minutes to Royce who has no world ranking in bjj. How about you rent any Abu Dhabi (the ultimate submission only event), and see that no Judoka ever won. BJJ guys dominated (though it was only submission and points for those who control position). How about
the US national Judo champion (just forgot his name) who fought Shamrock and one of Shamrocks students in the UFC, and got clobbered big time (though he did manage to nail one good throw). Stories of Judo guys loosing to bjj fighters in grappling only and bjj are numerous. Just as numerous as stand up guys loosing to bjj guys in NHB. (Just remembered, some members of the Gracie family have entered Judo tournaments and won by Judo rules...just rent Gracie in action 2). Before you begin a thread like that, do some more research.
MA fanatic
PS As for those brave PURE (not those who are pro boxers, wrestlers, and or trained kick boxers) judo warriors you mentioned, I'm still waiting for one to win an NHB event.

Your knowledge of Judo is obviously limited to what you learned in a BJJ class. For example, there was never a US Senior National champion in a UFC. Top level Judoka generally compete only in Judo events (like the World Championships and Olympics) where the level of competition, number of competitors, qualifications of competitors, and legitimacy of events are far greater than in commercial entertainment events like Pride or UFC. Naturally BJJ guys dominate in BJJ events and in BJJ seminars or BJJ videotapes.
I guess there is no point in discussing this with a person who does not even believe the obvious. Gracie clearly lost to Kimura when he had his arm broken and couldn't continue. Here is what Kimura wrote in his autobiography:

"I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain."

[Merryprankster]

While what you say is technically true (there was no Olympic/World Judo Champion in a UFC), you've missed the point by a mile.

MA Fanatic said that Renzo defeated an olympic judoka in the World Combat Championships, not the UFC.

Renzo Gracie beat Ben Spijkers, the bronze medalist in the Seoul olympics in the 90kg weight class by choke. Renzo was giving up at least 6 kg and if judo is anything like wrestling when it comes to weight, I imagine that Ben weighed more in 95 than he did in Seoul.

However, some good Judoka have competed in these events:

Cristophe Leninger, who I believe was a C level Elite Judoka in the US competed in UFC 1 and 13.

Naoya Ogawa has competed in Pride... He has four world championships to his name, although no olympic medals to my knowledge. Wasn't he All-Japan a few times?

Lloyd Irvin, 2 time National Judo Champion for 30-34 year olds in the 100kg weight class, has competed in several of these type events.

I'm sure there are some others.

So to categorically denying that international level Judoka don't enter these events is really just not true.

I will say that they don't commite professional suicide by training for UFC style events while trying to win in Judo and vice versa.

[MA fanatic]

I'm not sure where I was wrong in my posts. I did say that in my opinion Hellio lost the fight to Kimura. Actually, all the people who have trained in bjj would agree with me as well. There is no shame in losing. Keep in mind that Helio gave up a lot of weight to Kimura who was a top Judoka at the time.

As for Judo and NHB, there have been plenty of high level Judoka in the NHB arena. Some in fact Olympic or World Class caliber.

MA fanatic

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
While what you say is technically true (there was no Olympic/World Judo Champion in a UFC), you've missed the point by a mile.

MA Fanatic said that Renzo defeated an olympic judoka in the World Combat Championships, not the UFC.

Renzo Gracie beat Ben Spijkers, the bronze medalist in the Seoul olympics in the 90kg weight class by choke. Renzo was giving up at least 6 kg and if judo is anything like wrestling when it comes to weight, I imagine that Ben weighed more in 95 than he did in Seoul.

However, some good Judoka have competed in these events:

Cristophe Leninger, who I believe was a C level Elite Judoka in the US competed in UFC 1 and 13.

Naoya Ogawa has competed in Pride... He has four world championships to his name, although no olympic medals to my knowledge. Wasn't he All-Japan a few times?

Lloyd Irvin, 2 time National Judo Champion for 30-34 year olds in the 100kg weight class, has competed in several of these type events.

I'm sure there are some others.

So to categorically denying that international level Judoka don't enter these events is really just not true.

I will say that they don't commite professional suicide by training for UFC style events while trying to win in Judo and vice versa.

What Ma fanatic said was: 'How about
the US national Judo champion (just forgot his name) who fought Shamrock and one of Shamrocks students in the UFC'. My response said: 'there was never a US Senior National champion in a UFC.' My point was that Ma fanatic misstated the facts, as he did in several other places in his post. As MerryPrankster clarified, Leininger tried but never achieved the status of US Senior National Champion. In addition, a competitor who wins as a kid in the junior nationals, or in the 30 to 34 year old division is a long way from a US Senior National Champion. Even a 1988 Olympic athlete like Ben Spijkers is not on the top of his game 7 years later when he no longer qualifies for his own national Judo team.
I agree with the statement 'some good Judoka have competed in these events' and if Ma fanatic had said that I would not have corrected him. I did not deny that there have been top level Judo athletes enter these events, just that very few do. So far the examples given (even if you count US 30 to 34 year old champions) are less than a dozen. On the other hand there were 587 competitors in the last World Judo Championships who generally qualified by winning titles in about 100 different countries around the world. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe a single one of these Judo athletes has entered any of the MMA events mentioned in this thread. Tell me also if any BJJ competitor has won a major international Judo tournament that I don't know about.

So I stand by my statement that top level judo athletes generally don't compete in these commercial non-judo events (or in challenge matches, street fights, karate tournaments, BJJ videotapes, or BJJ seminars). The basis for this thread is incorrect, and it is like comparing apples and oranges saying one is better. Compared to other martial arts Judo is very much like BJJ, and I don't understand the need that some students have to claim the superiority of BJJ. It is incorrect to assume that the goal of Judo is to beat other martial artists in MMA events

[Merryprankster]

Unmatchable--

I agree with your assessment of the situation almost in its entirety. World Level Judoka will not commit professional suicide by training for an MMA event when they can (and should) be training for Judo comps.

I want to say that there is a Brazilian competitor--Leo Leite or maybe Flavio Cantos--darn, can't remember that is world-level Judoka AND BJJ black belt, but I really don't know--however, I don't believe he's ever one any international comps :)

Judo and BJJ are flip sides of the same coin, IMO. One only makes the other better. I see no need for any rivalry beyond friendly ribbing :)