What's the difference between Judo and Bjj

[MS2006]

I am posting because i am soon going to start judo and i heard about bbj and am wondering how is bjj differenty from Judo? The only difference i have heard is bbj doesn't teach alot of throws like judo does? I ask this because i am new to the world of MAs and don't know to much about it. Which do u like better? O ya and who are the Gracies, it sounds like a family line that is great at bjj or something like that, is that right? thanx for your time

[red_fists]

People, correct me if I am wrong.

Judo:
Was developed by Kano Sensei from Ju-Jutsu techniques.

I think he removed some techs and tried to make a more sports orientated version.
Founded around 1895.

BJJ:Also comes from Japanese Ju-Jutsu and was kinda developed in Brazil.
Founded around 1925.

So both got their origins in Ju-Jutsu and are bassically a trimmed and specialised Version of the old Japanese Ju-Jutsu techs. At least that is my understanding.

Other might have a more detailed/correct Version.

Hope this helps.

[red_fists]

Here is some info about Ju-Jutsu(Ju-Jitsu in the US).

These arts incorporate:
1. Posture and Stances
2. Body Movement
3. Striking Techniques
4. Kicking Techniques
5. Blocking Techniques
6. Vital Point Techniques
7. Joint Locking Techniques
8. Combination Techniques
9. Strangulation Techniques
10. Holding Techniques
11. Breakfall Techniques
12. Throwing Techniques
13. Self-Defense Techniques
(counter, escapes, avoidance)
(Kaeshi, Fusegi, Furimi)
14. Formal Exercise
15. Free Practice
16. Sparring

So all the 4 corners on the circle are covered.

Peace.

[Merryprankster]

Judo is more or less about throwing your opponent.

BJJ is more or less about submitting your opponent on the ground.

You will get some groundwork in judo, but not as much as in BJJ.

You will get some standing grappling in BJJ... but not as much as in Judo.

Both are equally effective methods of self defense, just different.

They are VERY complimentary. Judo gives you the takedown, BJJ gives you the finishes on the ground.

BJJ came from Judo. It's been bandied about a bit, but it's generally more or less agreed that Judo was the pappy of BJJ.

BJJ is also generally MUCH harder on the wallet.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by red_fists
Here is some info about Ju-Jutsu(Ju-Jitsu in the US).

These arts incorporate:
1. Posture and Stances
2. Body Movement
3. Striking Techniques
4. Kicking Techniques
5. Blocking Techniques
6. Vital Point Techniques
7. Joint Locking Techniques
8. Combination Techniques
9. Strangulation Techniques
10. Holding Techniques
11. Breakfall Techniques
12. Throwing Techniques
13. Self-Defense Techniques
(counter, escapes, avoidance)
(Kaeshi, Fusegi, Furimi)
14. Formal Exercise
15. Free Practice
16. Sparring

So all the 4 corners on the circle are covered.

Peace.

Circles don't have corners :D

[red_fists]

Originally posted by joedoe

Circles don't have corners :D

I guess than you are not aware of the Square and circle explanation as to which skills a fighter needs in order to be a well-rounded MA.

That was given by an Okinawan master.

[Sharky]

maybe they do in japan

[red_fists]

This is what I am refering to:

"Karate is a life long study. Think of "your" training as a circle. Within that circle is a square whose 4 corners touch the outer ring of the circle. The square is karate.... to be a complete karate student you must study all 4 points where the circle and square meet... "

" number one spot" he said pointing to one of the points where the circle and square intersected " is punching and kicking (karate)
number 2 spot is joint locks and throws....
number 3 spot is in close knees, grabs, chokes, armlocks... ect...
number 4 is on the ground wrestling like a judo man...."

Have fun.

[joedoe]

Yes, you are right. I have never studied a Japanese art, and have little knowledge of Japanese martial theory.

But a circle still does not have corners :D

[omegapoint]

I think Pete said that he learned these things from an Okinawan not a Japanese cat. Calling an Okinawan, Japanese is like calling an Aborigine a Brit or Aussie. 'Nawmean?

[LEGEND]

Agree with MERRY...main difference is BJJ cost $100 a month...JUDO cost $50 a month.

[beautifulvaley]

It depends what school your going to when I was doing Judo in bella coola it was exactly the same as bjj some schools I've been to focus on ground work and some on stand up and some on go go go tell you make em tap

NARF NARF

[Kristoffer]

Throws are more fun

[Ralek]

Let me tell you the history of the "Art of japanese grappling". This is a complete history and will also seperate the differences between BJJ and Judo.

In japan there was jiujitsu. Then there was a guy named Kano who did jiujitsu. Kano got tired of doing the unrealistic forms and drills all day long. In jiujitsu class most of the time you just did drills such as: oppenent grabs you, then you simulate an eye poke, then you throw him, then do a joint lock. These kinds of drills were unrealistic becuase the lethal techniques were only SIMULATED and your partner was COOPERATING and just standing there like a dummy while you simulated lethal techniques on him.

Although the jiujitsu techniques were lethal, the unrealistic method of training disturbed Kano. So Kano went into a deep meditation for 5 days. During the 5 day meditation he elevated his mind to different planes of conciousness. He suddenly realized the truth of everything that ever exsisted and became one with the universe. Kano realized that you had to get rid of SIMULATION of techinuqes and replace it with ACTUAL DOING of the techinques. He realized that you had to get rid of COOPERATING opponents who stand their like dummys and replace them with fully RESISTING opponents going FULL CONTACT at you trying take you out. With this method of training skill would be developed to a higher plane. Judo was born. And through all this hardcore training the style still remained soft, using technique over strength. There was not a new style but a new method of training know as Judo. Some people refered to it as "Kano's jiujitsu".

This new method of training called Judo looked great written down on paper but would it actually work against those still training with traditional methods of forms and drills? Kano decided to find out. He and his students issued a challenge to all the traditional jiujitsu schools. The jiujitsu schools sent their best fighters to the challenge held at the Tokyo police department. Then the challenge fights began. Kano's Judokas won every single fight. The jiujitsu guys were not able to defend the Judokas techniques wich were developed under hard sparring. The judokas who developed their skill through hard sparring were much better prepared than the those who tried to develop skill the traditional way through forms and drills. Some of the trad. jiujitsu guys were actually killed from being slammed on their heads so hard by Kano's bad boys. Kano had officially but-raped the traditional school of thinking. This caused a revolution in the martial arts world of japan.

Kano had a student. A student named Maeda. Maeda earned his black belt under Kano. Maeda traveled the world. He would fight people for money as he traveled. He eventually wound up in brazil and was trying to set up a japanese immigration colony. Maeda became friends with George Graice while in brazil. As a show of friendship Maeda taught George's son the art of Judo. George's son was named Carlos Gracie. Maeda particuraly liked the ground fighting aspect of judo called NEWAZA. Carlos foucused his triaining on the NEWAZA of judo. Then Carlos went around and starting fighting people and even put articles in the newspaper to issue a challenge to all of brazil to fight him. Carlos developed his Judo skills under NO RULES challenge matches and street fights. He became a very good fighter. Then he taught his brothers Judo. They constantly sparred with each other and fought challenge matches. This was during the early 1900's.

Then during world war 2 in the 1950's the United States dropped atomic bombs on japan thus destroying a large part of the judo communtity. Judo wasn't the same ever since. Judo became more watered down in Japan and they hardly ever practiced NEWAZA ground fighting. All the Judokas were just concerned about practicing stand up stuff and winning tournaments with pinning rules.

The Gracie family was disgusted by this so they changed the name from Judo to Jiujitsu. From then on the Gracie's called what they did "jiujitsu".

Then Rorion Gracie came to America. Later he brought his 16 year old brother Royce over. They had a jiujitsu school together and were poor. They were well known in their local area for taking on all challengers of all styles and winning every time. Then Rorion had a good idea to make some big money and started the "Ultimate Fighting Championship". Royce swept the tournaments and beat guys 80 pounds heavier than him and beat Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Jason Delucia, Keith Hackney, Gerard Gordue, and others. This sent shockwaves throughout the united states martial arts community.

In the united states they used the term "Brazilian Jiujitsu" to distinguish it from japanese jiujtisu. Rorion decided to copy right the name "Gracie Jiujtisu" and sued all his brothers for using the name "Gracie Jiujitsu". Rorion was the only Gracie allowed to call his style "Gracie Jiujitsu". This offended Rickson, Carley, Renzo and others. Carley challenged Rorion to a fight but Rorion declined. Rorion used Royce to make a bunch of money and now Royce has left Rorion. The machados, rickson, Royce, Caique, and I think Pedro Sayer all used to be at Rorions school. That would have been cool if they were still all in one place. But they all left Rorion. Not allowed to use the copyright "Gracie Jiujitsu" they used the name "Brazilian jiujtisu".

Brazilian jiujtisu continues to dominate the NHB world and BJJ fighters such as Minotauro might very well be invincible.

[DelicateSound]

You can't buy that king of humor. You ever read The Onion, Rolls?


You might like it. Go to www.theonion.com

[Ralek]

But drilling is still done for LEARNING a technique. When you learn an arm bar in BJJ or Judo you drill it step by step slowly with your partner cooperating so you can LEARN the tech. But then you spar FULL FORCE and must make your techs work in the FULL RESISTANCE environment. Most of the training time must be SPARRING.

Some more about the groundfigning: Kano thought that 80% of training time should be spent on stand up and 20% of training should be doing NEWAZA groundfighting. However Kano's student Maeda loved the NEWAZA groundighting. He found that it was much easier to end the fight from the ground. He spent more time developing his newaza and it is reflected by his students the Gracie's.

Todays Judoka are not very proficient on the ground. This is why a lot of BJJ blue belts can tap Judo black betls. The fight rarely ends with a throw unless you are fighting someone who sucks that can easily be dumped on their head. If you don't end the fight with the throw then you must use NEWAZA to end the fight. And the BJJ guys will easily gain the guard postion if they are thrown. And submit the judo guy from teh guard. If the BJJ guy gets a top position then it will be even easier. I agree with Maeda's opinion that NEWAZA is extrememly important if not more importnat than takedowns. Cause even if you get put on your back from a takedown there is always the guard....

Also many judo people in japan think NEWAZA is boring and they concentrate on the stand up becuase it looks super cool and is more fun and is better for the judo tournaments where there are pinning rules.

[old jong]

I don't even want to comment Rolls/Ralek/Whatever imaginative fairy tale about the history of Judo!...:rolleyes:Why not get it from a reliable source ? (http://www.judoinfo.com/history.htm) ;)

[DelicateSound]

Rolls I agree with you* on two points:


1) Newaza is effective in MMA tournaments where the effectiveness of throws and strikes is limited by the padding of the gloves and the flooring of the ring respectively.


2) Newaza is boring. I've never understood the attraction of two overweight, sweaty, floundering martial artists touching each other up for peoples entertainment. Ah well.







*It is possible that I have been drugged. Is there any other explanation?

[Merryprankster]

DS--

I agree (to some extent) that the surface in MMA events makes throws less of a fight ender, but I can speak from experience that the rings don't give THAT much. I'd compare it to being thrown on firm grass. Certainly enough to damage you. Much softer than concrete.

As far as the padding goes, fight gloves don't have much. Boxergenics are the most padded I've seen, and they do very little to lessen the impact. They're really there to protect the hands from breaking when you whack somebody upside the head---so they actually increase the effectiveness of punching by allowing you to throw hard. You can also execute effective knife and ridgehands in open finger fight gloves.

As far as Newaza, the reason you find it boring is because of Judo rules ;)

[Ralek]

Old Jong. It's not a fairly tale. The link you gave was just a little biography of Kano's life.

Ask any Judo person and they will tell you that the differnece between Judo and Jiujitsu is that Judo threw away the drills and unrealistic pracitce.

The challenge matches at the police station did happen and people did die. Your link mentions that "Judo triumphed over Jiujitsu in japan". It says it in the paragraph next to the picture of the symbol with a red dot in it. This is referring to the police station matches wich are now famous.

I did make some things up like the 5 days meditating and the atomic bombs but the rest is hard fact. Nothing in that link you gave contradicts what i said. It merely tells some more info about the art.

[DelicateSound]

Judo rules

Maybe MPS. I do find them tedious. My main gripe really is just realism. I train for self-protection and one rule I vehemently stick to is:

"Never go to the ground"*


So for me a perfectly done Peter Seisenbacher turn into a reverse juji-gatami is ruined when you think of the broken glass, kerb edge and three other guys that would have finished you off.

Maybe I'm just a cynic though! :D


Oh and the finger gloves, yes I kind of agree. In the UK some MMA's have 16oz gloves, which completely ruins everything. Finger gloves IMHO still have issues, but I guess they do protect the hands, so it's a fair trade off.

As for throws on concrete, I saw one a couple of months ago one Friday night. Ouch is the only word I can use. :eek:





*That line should be read in a Darth Vader-esque tone, as if said by some much revered Japanese Death-Warrior, with neat little goatie beard. :D

[Black Belt Jones 1]

Kano Developed Judo "the gentle way" to be able to train and achieve the same results without the extreme injuries and maiming that was occurring in jiujitsu. Check your history and don't limit your inquiry to the Gracies PC videos.

[PaulLin]

Ralek,

From your story, it sounds like a bad Karma to me--Kano got his foundation form jiujitsu and got more advanced than the rest of his kunfu brothers, but he didn't loyal to his root of art, instead, he used his achievements of art against his own root. In result, BBJ return the favorit by split with judo.

Any ways, I think the throwing techniques originally came form the Mongles. It spread east wards passed through the the Northeast China and then to Japan. So that the original Japanese Jiujitsu should have been form Chinese Wrestling--ShuaiChiao, and Chinese ShuaiChiao developed form Monglian Wrestling corperated with Chinese Martial Arts.

[Ralek]

Black Belt Jones. Yes Judo is the gentle way. But by gentle refers to using technique over strength. It does not refer to the intensity of the training. Judo is full contact and recently Llyold Irvin has been paralyzed from a judo tournament.

I think you are confusing some things. Judo threw away the "lethal" techniques such as eye poking. Why did Kano throw away eye poking? Becuase the eye poking had to be simulated. Kano's theory was that techniques should be developed in the cauldron of full force training with maximum resistance and with no simulation. Although it is possible to realistically train eye gouges it would leave the students blind so it was thrown out. Anything that had to be SIMULATED rather than ACTUALLY DONE was thrown out. So the training was not made gentler, but HARDER. The throwing out of techniques was in the spirits of making the training as hard as possible, not making it weaker.

And just becuase a technique was not "lethal" did not mean it was not effective. The "nonLethal" chokes will kill people. The "sportive" armbars will break arms. For example Lyod Irvin has recently had his neck broken by one of the sportive Judo throws in a sportive Judo tournament. The difference between the "lethal" and "nonlethal" is that the NonLethal techs are a little safer to use. The sportive judo throw can easily be turned into dangerous move by dropping the guy on his head rather than his back. The decision to throw out certain techniques was based on making the training as hard and "alive" as possible.

Paul Lin. Yes kano was a jiujitsu guy. As i said Kano did not create a new style. He just got fed up of doing kata's all day and got together with fellow hard core martial artists who prefered to develop their skill under the fire of hard sparring. And BJJ never broke of from judo. Maeda's friendship with the Gracie's was a life long friendship. The Gracie's continued Judo's tradtion of developing skill through hard combat. They never stopped that. The reason they started calling it "jiujitsu" was because they felt that the modern judo rules about pinning were absurd. If you are pinned for five minutes but managed to kill the guy with a choke then did you win or lose? Although you were pinned you are the one alive and he is not. So pinning rules don't sit well with the Gracies. The modern rules of tournment Judo discourage NEWAZA. The Gracie's judo teacher Meada loved NEWAZA and it is shown strongly that the Gracie's never broke with the teachings of their judo teacher.