Pretty good article on knives, quick draws, and knives in grappling.

[Ryu]

http://martialarts.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alliancemartiala rts.com%2Fspyderco.html


Pretty good article. Enjoy

[diego]

im just gonna doodle until my boy shows up, then its partytime, for now i will just speak to you jerks:D

[diego]

what you know about knifefighting styles, especially western, i know philipinos got that game on lock, so dont tell me about them, uno just some simple historical data, cool legends of knifefight heros, even native, or gypsy styles would be cool!, you got any links?,
I just realized i love knives, you know what else is a cool weapon, you know how pakua is all about its palm strikes right?, they have this weapon its like a 8inch to a foot? long needle, sharpened on both sides, and thiers a ring near the bottom to lock in your finger, and these dudes would hide the ****s in thier sleeve, now think about buddy doing his palm strike to your temple, and a 6 inch needle sticks in



OUCH:)

[Ryu]

Hi Diego.
Well effective knife fighting is effective knife fighting... but unfortuantely I'm only trained with the Filipino style of knife work. You said you already know about them, but I think you'll find a lot of similarities between them and the western knifers. After all what works is what works.
Black Jack is the man to ask for western martial arts and weapon styles. He'd be a much better guy to ask about the west. :)

Basically what I've discovered in knife and stick sparring is that things can happen lightning fast or can slow to almost a "cat-like" stalk.

Being able to move is the most important part of knife fighting.

when going against a decent knife fighter you will most often cut both your hand and his if you try to "defang the snake" ;)

Someone with little knife experience can still be a deadly threat to even a skilled person.

in reality, few people will flip their knives out and begin "dueling" :)

it's not that difficult to "pull a knife" without the other person knowing when grappling on the ground or in a clinch. (sorry, my BJJ bretheren :D )

Ryu

[diego]

incase anyone from mystyle is reading:) , i just have accsess to thier info.

i have actually done what you mentioned, it wasnt a realfight, but i felt scared. i was thierteen and my bestfriend gave me is fang, that his pop gave him, he said it was a isreali bootknife, only like 4 inches and less the an inch wide.
i hung with older dudes, all the time, and thier was this one goof about 18 or 19 at the time, we were at his house, a bunch of us, and out the blue the ****er put me in a headlock, and we had been drinking and smoking, so i had trouble breathing, and i started to freak"mentally, not like i wanted to hit a wall, but i got scared, cuz he wouldnt listen when i said let go, and breathing was getting hotter and tighter", so it seemed like a minute, the ****ers giving me noogies, and i had the knife on my right ankle, eventually i just spazzed out, grabbed it, then kept flicking back behind me at his head. hes lucky it was a small knife, and i didnt get a good reach/shot, i hit him behind the ear twice i think? i just spazzed, he got up, threw me @ the couch, and was gonna jump on me and rock me, then my other older goodbuddy, grabbed him, and onetimed him, then it was this big fiasco, till the ****er called the cops, as we were at his house.

As we reminisce:)
but ya, point...i know what your saying and i do love knives, i used to always be paranoid, and always packed one, thankfully that was the only time it was needed, as my feet and utter bugeyed paranoia kept me safe, in the days of old.

im logging out
Rest Easy/Stay Solid
Right On:cool: :p

[guohuen]

"Basically what I've discovered in knife and stick sparring is that things can happen lightning fast or can slow to almost a "cat-like" stalk." Well said Man! This can cross over to all your martial techniques. My movement in five animals is certainly done like this. Currently I'm training with flute, staff and two short iron rods and not doing any blade work. I used to train Escrima (escrimito &sarawali) and Eskimo knife fighting.

[yenhoi]

The reason I carry a knife is in case someone gets me on the ground, in a 'real' situation and I dont think I can handle it.

[Black Jack]

Ryu,

I always loved that article! Good stuff.

I think its all about perception and awareness, for example if you find yourself to be in a nasty location, place or brewing situation, take that time to get ready before you try and leave, palm a folder, have your hand in that area ready to load out, I know a guy who had slipped into a bathroom where he made two concealed sheaths from his t-shirt by cutting small holes in them, from which he opened his folders/thereby creating fixed blades and stuck them in that opening held together by his pants, nothing happened, the worst was he ruined a nice shirt, but he was prepared.

The Western stuff is composed of different systems and historical backgrounds but a lot of it is very simple in comparison to the other arts, a lot of 1-5 with a focus on the thrust as the killing blow, very ballistic, get in and take him out.

The thrust is a very dangerous tactic I heard a gentlemen once say that they key is to stick it in there as far as it will go, and pretend its a stick shift on a car.

You will see techniques like the passata sotto, florete, quartte sotto, thrust, coreing thrust, slash, passing, false attack, and a host of other names from different western classical swordplay systems, with the Bowie you will see some extra terms like the snap cut and back cut, with some military systems much more close quater based tactics, sentry removal methods , with prison stuff a lot of grappling and two person take downs, a favorite I have read about is to put the guy in a head lock and start going nuts on him with the blade, very hard to defend against, same with the mad dog which is a WWII method where you are in a football linemans stance, claw at his face with one hand, while you thrust away at his body with a LOT of forward pressure.

Western systems can be very similar or very different depending on the 5 w's. Who, What,When,Where and Why.

For the FMA stuff, they are one baddass blade culture, same with the silat and kun tao players, since their are so many FMA systems some are related in certain methods and some are very different.

The Kali system I am now starting to work with, Sayoc Kali, is a "all blade, all the time art", I like to balance out my western studies with a specific eastern study, at one point it was going to be Bando but the guy turned out to be a nutcase, so I was very lucky to find another system I was always a eager to get my hands on.

www.Sayoc.com

[JusticeZero]

...Eskimo knife fighting..???? Where the heck do you find that??

[Ryu]

Black Jack,
I am trying to really hone my knife skills lately. It's frustrating because I want my carenza crisp and smooth, but I never seem to be satisfied with it. Though it's looking better after about an hour or so of working with it today.
I think I figured something out that I was doing wrong.

Ryu

[guohuen]

Justice, I learned Eskimo knife fighting from an Eskimo man from Alaska named David Greiner. Pretty cool stuff. Very circular with low stances and a lot of faking motions. There's some pretty nice leg takedowns in the style too. The beauty of the melting pot of MA that was the airborne rangers is that you had 600 guys living in close quarters practicing a myriad of styles they brought with them.

[Stacey]

I don't know knife fighitng as a seperate art, but I can apply it to mantis and do far, far better. ...hell, who can't. Who are these guys? It seems that anyone can read those old manuals and deduce as much if not more. The guys posture is highly uninpressive. Those techniques work, but a little more know how could make them a lot more nasty. He should take a shuai chiao/chin na class. That would help him greatly...maybe learn some wing chun or snake style. Thats wear its at.


Want to read a good knifefighting book? Get "Slash and thrust"

Thats a beauty for general knifefighting. Apply it to your kung fu.

I was reading some military knife disarms and I thought this would be different that your basic arm bar, but its not. Knives really are just extensions. Of course, extensions not dependent on waist power generation to be effective.

[dre]

Diego - "what you know about knifefighting styles, especially western, i know philipinos got that game on lock, so dont tell me about them, uno just some simple historical data, cool legends of knifefight heros, even native, or gypsy styles would be cool!, you got any links?"

I've had a lot of weapons experience (in fact I'm going to a saber tournement tomorrow.) so I'll give your question a try :). As far was western Knife styles we have : A sicilian style , there IS a gypsy style or Seville, Spain (it think!) and a Basque style. If I remember right the basque style is centerned around a type of knife that fishermen used and carried constantly.

All of these styles borrow heavily from European Fencing. European fencing has a few knife tactitcs of its own, althought they are very similar to normal Saber tactics. Most of those are part of Rapier/Dagger combo. Fencing is very usable with short weapons liek daggers, knives etc.

The US army, in it's manual (someone posted the URL here not long ago) has a chapter on knife fighting. It is almost exactly European fencing, even the stance is a European Stance (expet for the hand "hiding" the knife. Not ending here, the US goes on to "borrow" the lines of attack from French style fencing. . .

Ryu - "cat like stalk"? Why not just learn Eurpean footwork? All it is is moving from a "cat" stance. It's not easy to learn, but it's there.

Guohen - Do you know hpw to use the "moon" knife then?

Blak Jack - I think I like you already, you know what you're talking about.

"The Western stuff is composed of different systems and historical backgrounds but a lot of it is very simple in comparison to the other arts, a lot of 1-5 with a focus on the thrust as the killing blow, very ballistic, get in and take him out. "

That is becuase it was found that stabbing is not only safer for the attacker, but more likey to be deadly with a sword. This tranphered to knives later on. Slashing is a secondary tactic.

"You will see techniques like the passata sotto, florete, quartte sotto, thrust, coreing thrust, slash, passing, false attack, and a host of other names from different western classical swordplay systems"

I would not recomend the Passato sotto exept for an attack to the outside high line. It can be a difficult postion to recover from if you're set on attacking the more important parts of the body (although you could switch to a reverse gaurd and slash the vein on the back of the opp's foot if you're Passato Sotto fails.)

Fleche is a good one. get in there , kill him. It takes balls to do it though. (forgive me , I'm a Fench style fencer, so I am trying to understand Italian teminology).

Slash? A little weak , maybe to soften him up , or as part of a disengage under the arm or a counter circle in 6 (I think)!

"with some military systems much more close quater based tactics, sentry removal methods"

I consdier close knife to be very difficult to _survive_ rather than win at. Keep him away from you until you're ready. Deliberatly moving into closer ranges with no plan is suicide. I must disagree.
Infighting is one of my favorite methods, but it is a very fast science, on false move, and you're a goner.

Stacey - "I don't know knife fighitng as a seperate art, but I can apply it to mantis and do far, far better. ...hell, who can't"

I am both a European fencer and a 7* Mantis student. (I'm faaar better at Fencing). I've defeated in a fairly amicable match , a Mantid with knife tactics modified from the system. You're only good with weapons if you practice weapons , in other words.

"Those techniques work, but a little more know how could make them a lot more nasty. He should take a shuai chiao/chin na class"

You're just downright wrong here. Try to grab me, and I'll make sure you grab the blade. Infighting is an ADVANCED , not a basic tactic. It's also gaurnteed to end up with somebody dead. Grappling + baldes takes a very high level of skill to pull off (and not get killed) and even then it's a gamble. Very high -risk.

"I was reading some military knife disarms and I thought this would be different that your basic arm bar, but its not. Knives really are just extensions."

But it changes everything. Punching someone , and stabbling someon, has a totally different damage value attached to it. . .

LOL. I think I went on too much .

[Black Jack]

Dre,

Whats up bro, you should like you got a real good head on your shoulders. I love the western methods from both a academic and practical viewpoint, their is a vast wealth of knowledge to be had in our own European fighting cultures.

I myself have just started to pick up a bit of classical fencing to improve on ym western blade style, in the image of good old Colonel A.J. Biddle.....grin.

By the way the navaja rules:D

Ryu,

Carenza is one hell of a workout, I have not done it in a few months, but man what a great tool. From a FMA viewpoint I am working on Sayoc Kali, the begining different right hand and left hand vital templates, transitional energy and 9 count tapping drills, 7 count passing drill, its very different than anything else I have every seen before, some rather nasty stuff.

Makes me eager to learn more and more and more:D

Stacy,

Why do I even bother, the gentlemen from the Alliance website are first rate people and top class martial artists, unlike your vague and hidden troll self who does NOT HAVE A CLUE in the world as to what you are talking about when it comes to knife combatives.

Pete Kautz would shred you like a snakes shreds its old skin, those are serious combative researchers, not wannabe's who post nonsense about stuff they don't know squat about, people to busy actually training hard to care about the pussified ramblings of a he-she.

Try putting your made up blade oriented kung fu theories against a trained knifer, just make-sure you have some health insurance to cover the colostomey bag you will be wearing for life, that is only if they feel friendly, and don't decide to snuff you out.

Talk about drek!:rolleyes:

[Tvebak]

Its funny with MA people who belive that they can grap any weapon and just do the stuff they normally do with empty hands and it will work great...its true that theres some movements hidden in forms etc that are usefull, but nothing is usefull if its not trained in the right way.
In capoeira we have som sweeping movements with the hands in the "old" angola styles that CAN be translated into knifefighting...but for some reason people tend to belive that if they practise angola and do the ginga like Joao Grande then they are good with knifes also.
On the other hand, having played a bit of the knife game, santa maria, i found that i was able to use the movements when going to a filipino MA seminar...but i only got an understanding of the movements after using them on both capoeira,FMA and other ppl.
So also one needs to get out of the box and train with ppl who does things diffrently in order not to get caugt in playing a game that will deevolve over time...
Sorry im ranting today...hope some of it made some sense:)

[guohuen]

Great post Dre! I'm in complete agreement about infighting. I first heard the phrase "There's only two kinds of knifefighters. The quick and the dead!" in '75 from a man named George Cupp that was very good at it. Yeah, the moon knife is cool. I also learned it for it's original purpose of filleting and skinning.LOL I was taught to hold it backwards and expose the blade by turning the wrist. The first time I say David use it was his first day in the rangers. He had just arrived and was introduced to his squad leader, St. Gary Horton, 3rd squad 1st plt. co. a 2/75 by the co, Capt. Robert Howard. David stands about 5'3' so Sg. horton takes one look at him and turns to capt howard and says "WTF am I supposed to do with this?!" David says excuse me Sgt. horton and he turns around to look just in time to see david do a lightening fast left spinning slash with the moon that stooped 2/3 the way and reversed. He missed his gut both times by an inch. Sgt Horton turned pale and looked at Capt Howard and said "He can stay!".LOL:D

[TenTigers]

Blackjack,
You are so right about Sayoc Kali being all knife, all the time. Sayoc Kali is like Hung-Ga/Wing chun with knives-it's sick! Trapping, sticking, running hands, all with knives. Grappling with knives is where it's at. I haven't been in touch with Tuhon in awhile, and I sure miss that stuff. When I first started, and I am talking about only a month or two of playing, I was hanging out with a friend who has been involved in a (very cultish) jiu-jutsu system for about 10-12 years, and the topic of knife defenses came up. He was of course claiming the superiority of his system and how he felt confident in facing any knife attack. So after I played with him, and then my training bro, who was with Chris for years played tic-tac-toe on him with rubber training knives, he said, "Well, you guys are using very unorthodox technique" We just looked at each other and simultaneously said, "No S***." This guy's technique was all based on Fairburn/Sikes, slash and thrust technique, and was completely out of his element. Funny thing, is that guy is still training in his cult/dojo-but this is for another topic!

[Black Jack]

TenTigers,

Yeah Sayoc Kali is a real nice fit for me, since I love bladwork it really is a matchmade in heaven, fits in perfect with the other stuff I know and the WWII close combat material, I am going to be starting up a training group here in my area soon, just have to find those as serious about the info as I'am, as you well know Sayoc is NOT for everybody, it freaks some people out, these guys take it way past the "de-fanging the snake" stage, plus the bullwhip is pretty wicked.

Are you a member of the Sayoc Kali Silak Association?

I just sent in all my info to get listed in their archives, have all my training hours recorded and become a member of the brotherhood, did you ever met Guro Jeff Chung, he is my Sayoc instructor, a real nice guy.

Cheers :)

[dre]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Dre,

Whats up bro, you should like you got a real good head on your shoulders. I love the western methods from both a academic and practical viewpoint, their is a vast wealth of knowledge to be had in our own European fighting cultures.

I myself have just started to pick up a bit of classical fencing to improve on ym western blade style, in the image of good old Colonel A.J. Biddle.....grin.

By the way the navaja rules:D

drills, 7 count passing drill, its very different than anything else I have every seen before, some rather nasty stuff.

Makes me eager to learn more and more and more:D


Yeah , it seems like a lot of the time , "Martial Art" only applies to the east, and whatever western systems that exist are disregarded.

Fencing, especially doing a lot of matches (not just the footwork that some will load you down with) can decently increase you're parry, etc. The shuffing foowork drills can be quite annoying int he beggining.

[dre]

"I was taught to hold it backwards and expose the blade by turning the wrist"

ooh, that would work well with that shape!! So what else did you lean in the system? How did he learn it? It sounds facinating from a historic perspective as well as a practical one.

[fightfan]

Very interesting stuff guys!!!
In the great state of Texas where I live its much easier legally to carry a concealed handgun, so thats my weapon of choice.
God bless America!;)
I know that you can carry a work related knife in most places, however you must have proof and some cops still check the knife for wear.
Have any of you guys ever had a run in with the police and got harrased for carrying a knife?

[guohuen]

Hey Dre! David grew up in an eskimo village and learned from his maternal grandfather. The style has a lot of leg sweeps and whirlwind kicks and moves the hands constantly to disguise intent or the blade. The blade is usually swept in or out in a circular motion with the other hand as a distraction or block. Sometimes a small dagger is carried in the other hand. All stances are low and grappling is common. It's been many years and I haven't really kept up with the little I know. Maybe I'll do a little research for fun.

[dre]

wow, that's very interesting. I have to admit I've never heard much of the style , exept for an article I read quite a while ago. I've seen a Moon Knife , and it's quite sharp enough to be a good weapon!

It's nice to know that there are some other people up here who know something about weapons! :)

BTW My team won the saber tournament.

[guohuen]

Congrats!!!

[Black Jack]

Guohuen,

That awosme that you know some American Indian knife fighting techniques!:D

The American Indians had fierce knife and grappling skills, its always something I have wanted to pick up on as I have a bit of Indian in my own bloodline, My grandfather, a contractor, built a number of buildings on reservations in Topeka Kasanas and was very close to a number of the tribes.

I remeber going with him to a number of those sites when I was young, whats even cooler is that he built that high school my mom and dad went to, talk about weird.

I know that David "Snake" Blocker in Cali has a Native American long knife fighting system and their are one or two other people on the web, one I believe is trying to pass off Ed Parker kenpo as authentic Native American knife techniques, but I could be very wrong.

Was it a family system or tribal? Sounds interesting.

[JWTAYLOR]

I believe you are refferring to "Master Chief Roman".

The fact that someone proclaims themselves as "Master Chief" pretty much says it all.

JWT

[Black Jack]

JWT,

Yeah thats the bloke, I had a few e-mail converstations with him regarding his "system", but nothing much was answered on specifics, the one thing that I found very weird was that he was really into rank via video tape, where I just wanted to learn some authentic Native American knife/tomahawk methods, and did NOT want to get any rank, as if their is such as thing.

One of his questions to me was I believe,

"If I give you this information and I certified you as a black belt, what would this information be worth to you?"

Where I a bit befuddled, answered back something to the sort of,

"Well, thats something for you to decide, as it is you who is marketing the system, but anything that is fair and that I can afford, I would seriously consider."

After I sent that e-mail I got nothing back in return, he never sent me a message back, so I just blew him off.

THOUGH I did notice not long after that his ad in black belt which did not list a price before, now has a price of $750 for the Native American Knife Defense Tapes, which low and behold comes with certification.:rolleyes:

JWT, does he have a bad rap in the Kenpo community?

[JWTAYLOR]

Yup.

But hey, on the upside, he does Guarantee you a black belt within one year.


JWT

[TenTigers]

Black Jack- Guro Jeff and I go way back-back to the "basement training days" with Tuhon Sayoc. I would have kept up but my financial situation dictates I put things on hold for the time being. Jeff is great, he's always laughing and sticking you at the same time-like Dr. Giggles. Then again, I should talk, my students refer to me as a clown with a chainsaw-I'm always teaching very lighthearted, and cracking jokes while teaching the most brutal applications my sick mind can conjure up! Hey, Like attracts like!