Dap/Jip Sao

[reneritchie]

I'm interested in what thoughts folks might have on Dap/Jip (Joining) Sao? Are there any specific positions, structures, angles, etc. you try to achieve? Do you shift/step with the joining, or join first then position during the next phase? Once you've joined, do you try to stay joined, or will you separate and join again as the mood/conditions strike you?

(Note: I realize this might not be yet another thread about the various merits of the assorted characters that inhabit the forum membership, or a discussion/diatribe on discussion (or moderation) itself, but hopefully there are a few others here actually interested in chatting about WCK again...)

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

RR - could you explain a little bit about what it is for those of us who are struggling through the chinese terms right now? :)

[reneritchie]

r5a - Sure. Both roughly mean "joining arm". In any altercation, there will come a point where your join your bridges with the opponent (maybe with the opponent's bridges, better with some vulnerable point of their core anatomy). It's the moment you go from regular daily life (walking, talking, running, funning, waiting in line, etc.) to application mode (you get attacked).

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Gotcha Rene, thanks!

[Marshdrifter]

Hi Rene,

We don't have those terms in our school, but with your
discription, I think I understand what you're asking.
The short answer is, as always, it depends.

Generally, I'd always turn to face the person. If there's a lot of
motion, I may step and turn as I join. I'm small and my power is
better when I'm close in, so I like to stay joined, if at all possible.
It also gives me a better feel for what the other guy is about to
do. OTOH, if I feel the need to fade back briefly or something, I'm
not against the idea.

I'm not sure what you mean about different phases. I don't think
of phases in wing chun actions. Everything is dependent upon
energy and that energy used helps to dictate the proper
response. If it happens sooner, do it sooner. If it happens later,
do it later. That sort of thing.

[byond]

hey ren,
nice thread..thought i might break some bread with you on this one....well i train cross armed chi sao for training my man sao(inquisitive hand) but i dont just focus on this because alot of the fights ive been in, there was no time for set up...and besides the on guard position can give people a clue to what your about...i size up my opponent at first sign of verbal discord...and realize on there weight distributionm and general mass..a basic game plan/...if im out mased very bad and there very structuraly sound i side step forward on a 45 degree and than step in with the other leg..via jong form and wip a relaxed man sao down the center for contact..if nothings there i shoot in with a strike...i really use the kwun (quan sao...binding hands)alot off my man sao.....if my opponent is throwing a right jab and i step in deep into there center ill have a right tan/left bong...either my tan will catch them and my bong turns into a hit (which on 2 occasions has caused the person to drop there hands so my tan becomes a palm strike immediatly_) if my bong catches them my tan shoots in ...i dont block...i always stike....my bong for example is not a block..its a very deep penetrating motion.....i recieve first before transmitting my force..i dont want to push my opponent away...ugg more work chasing them......one bridge is joined while the other bridge is walking in, doing some talking...whenever i send in the next strike the retacting bridge "joins" and or covers.
my joining is to smother my opponents limbs while i hit them.....it also lets me feel there whole body movement through there limbs...so i can control there center of gravity...my joining is coordinated with my movement.....i dont move to much though, i stress root in my training and for me moving" only enough" works...if i loose contact i shoot in..no questions asked

[byond]

angle wise..i tend twords 45 degrees ....on all my angling..bridge poition ,footwork....i feel if your bridge is to high you loose chum...and your structure isnt connected...to low and you can get jammed and leaves you real vulnurable to head shots.....middle path imo is best..middle highth....

[dzu]

Hi Rene,

This is actually a pretty deep topic when you consider all of the variables that are processed instantly during an engagement.
Timing and positioning, IMO, determine what method you will use to join rather than a specfic technique.

Personally, I've found that moving my structure first to intercept is preferable. This allows me to keep my arms relaxed to flow with whatever is presented to me. I also maintain my own personal range at all times so that I don't have to reach or over extend. Another benefit is that I make contact before that attack reaches full power and can lead the bridge and guide it away from my center. Ideally I would step and hit together.

I initiate action when I see movement so I may not have a clear picture of what the attack actually is. Instead, I move structure first and try to move into the best range for me to hit. My goal is to hit and cover the area where I saw movement. If it was a feint, my opponent now has to deal with my attack. If it was real, hopefully my bridge can cover it (but if not the power is less). If my opponent changes, hopefully I can sense it via feel or peripheral vision to adapt or my attack disrupts him first. Once in close, I stick and eat up his space. I let the hands find the openings and just focus on maintaining my body structure. I pressure him with my legs as well to break his lower gates. Against non-WC people, it usually is too much information for them to handle and they try to back up and/or shift away.

When my timing is off and I am late, I usually use a triangle step to get off the original line and create a new one. Sometimes the first step of the triangle is small because I just need to move the original target to where he misses. I don't think standing still and waiting for the attack to develop is beneficial. The power is approaching maximum and I am letting the opponent dictate the timing and range. Once I get information, I can then use my body to initate my next move.

I find myself using Tan Da, Lop Da, Pak Da, Gaun Da, Bik Bong, Lan Da, Por Jung Da and Fuk Da only because they cover larger areas. Once in, it's easier to use other things since I have better control.

Dzu

[yuanfen]

I am not sure what "dap" is. I am more into understanding motion than in language- recognizing that you need some of the latter to commuicate on the net. Less so in the kwoon.There is a motion/function in our chum kiu which is often called jip sau.
Superb motion. But: It is not the only motion for "joining" by which it sounds as though you mean "contact" often with the bridges. If that is the case, it seems to me that the more you do wing chun, the less you depend on predictable moves..
If you know yourself and you have practised with a wide range of people...the opponent will show you the way to his/her defeat.
No two opponents or situations are exactly the same.

[reneritchie]

Hi Joy,

Some people use a different Jip character, I think, to connote the double arm movement in Chum Kiu. Dap/Jip is sort of like the yang to the yin of Mun (asking), though they can bleed together around the edges. Usually if someone Mun's (even if its a sucker punch from behind your left shoulder), you join (dap or jip) in response (and hopefully not with the famous face block ;) )

Of course there is accordance to circumstance and conditions dictating the way, but in an effort to get some actual WCK related conversation going, I was hoping we could pick a few points, even in theory or abstract, to chat about.

Personally, I factor into some Kuen Kuit process:

If there's an apparent target, I go for target.
If there's not, and only an impression (blur of movement, vocal cue, spider sense a tingling, whatever), I go for the impression.
If the impression turns out to be correct, I stay with it and get down to business.
If the impression turns out to be false, I make sure I'm centered in case another target or impression is incoming.

Once engaged, the feeling tells me how to align myself optimally to defend and bring in my counter.

Does anyone train any specific drills to develop Joining (Dap/Jip) skill? To ensure that during the perception your body moves as properly as possible and during the initial contact, it aligns as optimally as possible?

Rgds,

RR

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Personally, I factor into some Kuen Kuit process:

If there's an apparent target, I go for target.
If there's not, and only an impression (blur of movement, vocal cue, spider sense a tingling, whatever), I go for the impression.
If the impression turns out to be correct, I stay with it and get down to business.
If the impression turns out to be false, I make sure I'm centered in case another target or impression is incoming.
I suppose it goes without saying that this is good advice. :)


Does anyone train any specific drills to develop Joining (Dap/Jip) skill? To ensure that during the perception your body moves as properly as possible and during the initial contact, it aligns as optimally as possible?
Yeah, we occasionally do a sort of one step sparring, where one
person feeds by approaching their partner with a punch or
combination of punches (pre-determined) and the partner then
defends in whatever way they feel necessary. It's good for
learning to feel what the feeder is doing and to react accordingly.