Forms (An insight)

[JusticeZero]

Someone recently mentioned that 'when you're in a fight, you will do what is wired into your reflexes'.

Wouldn't that be a good explanation why people should concentrate more on forms? With the form, you focus on completing the full committed range of the movement at power, not pulling it back or choking it off. It would seem that this would train you to apply your full technique to a situation, rather than pinching off and point-hunting in a fight. It merely remains to train the other attributes of range and reaction in without destroying the effectiveness of the form's techniques in muscle memory..

[JWTAYLOR]

Forms have thier place, specifically, learning to coordinate the body while performing specific tasks.

However, forms do not teach you where your opponent will be, what your opponent will be doing, or how it feels and changes your actions when they are performed against a heavy target.

For that, you need another body.

JWT

[red5angel]

JZ - Forms have their place in training I believe, for exactly the reasons you are saying. For example, in Wing Chun, it helps to develope the muscle memory of which you speak. they also serve another purpose, to catalog all the styles 'techniques'. Each technique in the form may not be exactly how it is to be performed in this case, since most techniques can be modified slightly for different situations, but it gives you a base to work from, a common frame of reference.

[apoweyn]

justicezero,

that depends on the form, in my opinion. lots of people take this line. "it hard wires specific reactions into your subconscious." but then, faced with the observation that movements in their forms might be exaggerated, unrealistic, etc., they say, "well, we do an exaggerated version in the forms knowing that in reality, we'll perform it differently."

well, if the purpose of the form is to hard wire a specific and precise reaction into muscle memory, isn't that, by definition, how you'll perform it in reality?

so, it depends on how closely the form mirrors the application, to my mind.


stuart

[red5angel]

Good point Ap, I should have been a little more clear. I do not believe that the forms are to hardwire certain responses into you necessarily, that is what drilling is for. I believe that the forms hardwire, structure. In Wing chun the elbows should be in, this is not a natural state but practicing the forms and it starts to become a natural state.

[Chang Style Novice]

I thought the difference between the actual movements in forms and their likely applications was a result of NOT having that other body to work with...

For example, with a taiji 'push' movement, you might extend yourself further forward in order to simulate the extra force needed to actually push a body, and to condition yourself to expect a lot of force neccesary to move that body.

Or, as another example, stances will be deeper than you'd actually fight in so's to condition your leg strength and ability to balance yourself.

This contradicts the aphorism "you fight the way you train" but I'm not sure I buy that anyway - at least with respect to forms. For sparring it's probably true.

on edit -

"f.arther" is a dirty word now? I flurking hate this autocensor software.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

that makes more sense to me.


chang,

well, i can thing of good reasons to practice forms. i just don't find the 'hard wire appropriate responses' one to be very compelling.


stuart

[red5angel]

I think ultimately in my mind it is another way of conditioning really, especially if your style recquires you to ocntort yourself in ways that may not at first be natural to you. It may help to hardwire certain responses into you but as I said before I think drills are designed to do that.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I think a better way to put it would be:

"Practice forms to condition proper body mechanics for your techniques."

I mean, what's a form anyway except a fancy kind of shadowboxing? And everyone shadowboxes to check up on how their performing this or that, right? Well, except for wrestler types, I guess.

[red5angel]

CSN says - "Practice forms to condition proper body mechanics for your techniques."

I would agree with that!

Dude, that avatar! You texans crack me up!!!!

[Chang Style Novice]

Be that as it may, my avatar is Chuck D, who hails from Long Island.

[red5angel]

yep :)

[nospam]

Don't become illusioned with the thought that forms practise will make you a better fighter. They will not. They are one piece of a large and complex puzzle.

Form's practise is a great tool to work on imprinting feel and execution of technique. Forms alone do not teach you how to fight or fight better. For instance, in golf, going to the practise range to work on technique will help your over-all swing and ball accuracy, but the experience of playing golf on a golf course will make you a better player. Combine both practise and play (performance) and you are on your way to breaking 100! :D

There are many Tiger Woods' of the Driving Ranges, but get them on the course and when only one shot counts, as opposed to starting to hit the ball good after warming up on 12-20 balls, they struggle to break 100.

In TCMAs, combining the many elements together begets gung fu. You need to fight to become a better fighter. You need to fight using yor style's techniques AND philosophy to effectively use gung fu. Forms help. That is...they h-e-l-p. As does 2-person drills, hard and dedicated practise, a good teacher, sincere classmates, training softly, going all out, getting a bloody nose and the odd broken bone, all those many strains, sprains, and playing connect the stars after walking head first into that reverse punch, and of course belief in a system of TCMAs. And when yas paying $40 to $100++ a month on Kung Fu fees and ya have the satin jammies and canvas slippers ta boot...you might as well super-size that order and get the full meal deal.

nospam.
:cool: