Is this herbal formula legit??

[Royal Dragon]

Ok guys, I have a suposed traditional Iron Hand formula, BUT it has Goldenseal in it. Now it's MY undersatnding (From considerable reseach) that Goldenseal is a American indian and European herb, and only imported into China in like the last 30-50 years or so.

This being said, do you think a "Traditional" hebal formula that contains this herb is a trustworthy??

I'm concerned with how Goldenseal fits into the formula, and how it reacts with the other herbs. Is this a case where the Goldenseal was added because it's a favorite herb of the practitoner I got the fromula from, or possibly the entire thing is made up??


Or am I off base, and the presance of Goldenseal in an Iron Plam formula is no big deal?

[MonkeySlap Too]

E-mail me the formula, and I'll tell you what you have.

[Royal Dragon]

I sent you a Priviate message with the formula.

Also, what about Skullcap, Cayenne pepper, and Burdock root?? I'm sure these are also American or European herbs, and NOT Chinese, yet I see them in another "traditional" formula used for Iron Palm, bruises, spraines and bone fractures.

Oh, anyone know what "Snake root" Is?? I have never heard of that one before. How about some latin?? I have a Materia Medica with 400 herbs listed, with uses and functions in both Western and Chinese medicinal perspectives. If I have the Latin for the herb I can figure it all out.

[Chang Style Novice]

Disclaimer: I know nothing about herbal medicine, be it chinese, european, or native american.

Still, I wouldn't worry too much about 'foreign' herbs in your potions. The word 'traditional' may be getting some abuse here, but what works works, right? Besides, there's been trade between these regions for hundreds of years now, which is plenty of time for tradition to work in some "new" ingredients.

[Royal Dragon]

As I said before, my materia medica has 400 herb and formulas listed, ALL are traditional Chinese herbs found naturally in China. Herbs from America or Europe are rare and not even listed in this book.

I doubt someting as gaurded as an Iron Palm formula handed down for genrations would have a "Forigne" herb added to it, when those herbs are not even in the mainstream in any great amount.


Who knows though, I may be wrong, thats why I am asking.

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, as an example, peppers potatoes and tomatoes are thoroughly integrated into many asian and european cuisines: all are native to the Americas.

Granted cooking isn't the same as herbology, but certainly it's related.

[raving_limerick]

RD,

While I can't really answer your question seeing as I'm pretty much an idiot in these matters, you might want to check out this article John Crescione article on americanized jow (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/journal/columns/crescione/dragon02_americanjow.shtml) for thoughts on "Americanizing" TCM and its treatments.

Sorry I can't do more.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting artical. I must say an INDEPTH undersatnding of both Chinese AND Western herbal medicine as well as a deep understanding of Iron Hand and the specific needs would be nessasary to create an herbal formula.

Now, inter mixing the two? that's an even bigger strestch in my book, especially since Western and Chinese herbal medicine are run on vastly differing theory and perspective.

The way I see it, your going to have to have an entirely Western formula, or a Chinese formula, but NOT a mix of the two. I have never seen or heard of an understanding of Western herbs from the perspective of Chinese medicine before, and THAT is what would be nessasary to intagrate the two. Now for a Martial artists who's medicinal knowledge is often limited to martial specialtys and RARELY has the knowledge and education nessasary to fully under stand ONE herbal discapline let alone two it seems VERY unlikely that a formula blending herbs from other discaplines would be authentic, or even properly functional, and it may even be dangerous.

That's what triggred the warning flag in my head.

I may be wrong of course, and that is why I'm asking. Hopefully someone very skilled in the medicinal arts would be able to either confirm my fears, or aliviate them.

[Stacey]

Provided the source was good, no worries mate.

all herbs have certain effects on the body, such as increase earth, or taking away yin, etc. Once they are classified according to TCM, they can be used without any problem. There is no "chinese herb" herbs are herbs. Anymore than hawaiian sugar is distincly american....herbs are regional and China has many regions and herbs that come from Tibet to Mongolia and beyond. I'd worry more about who gave it to you, reputation etc.

[IronFist]

Yeah, I think that Americanized Jow article mentions somewhere that the reason Chinese medicine uses Chinese herbs is because that's what they have in China. Or something like that. In other words, there's no reason to think that the same effect couldn't be gotten from other herbs in America.

Russians have Vodka. Irish(?) have Whiskey. Both get you wasted.

But maybe not about the herb thing. I dunno.

IronFist

[Royal Dragon]

I guess the question is

Are these and the several other American or European herbs classifed according to the Chinese methods ..............or not?

[guohuen]

Dragon, email me the recipe. It sounds a little suspect. Goldenseal does have some anti-inflammitory properties, but I've never heard of it being used externally.

[Royal Dragon]

Hhhmmmm, I seem to rember reading in one of my books that it can be used externally to "Purify wounds". I believe that was the term used in the book. HOWEVER, it was a book on traditional Native American medicine, and had nothing to do with Chinese medicine.

My herbal library is just shy of 25 titles, not counting little pamphlate type books, and included what cold best be decribed as a phiscian's desk referance covering 400 Chinese herbs (I know, I mentioned it like 6 times already, but it's the prize of my collection;) ), the area's they grow naturally, thier uses and effects in both Chinese and western understanding.

NONE of my Chines books lists Goldenseal, and ALL of my Western books do. It is apparently used the most as a detoxifier and an immune system booster.

[Royal Dragon]

But does Goldenseal enter the liver and lung meridians?

Or does it just help with inflamation? Also, how does it affact the other herbs in the formula? Does it have a cooling effect, a warming effect? Is it harmonising, or contradictory? Does anyone even know?? Or is it just a haphazard substitue for someting not avaliable in the US?

[Royal Dragon]

The Latin for Goldenseal is Hydrastis canadensis, not ranunculaceae.

3 different books (so far) list it as Hydrastis canadensis.

I can't find ranunculaceae anywhere, where did you get that one from??

[Royal Dragon]

Now you went and did it!!! Curse you, you went and listed the title AND author, I'm stuck by compulsive obsession to BUY them!!!! See what you did!!!:D

Seriously though, Where did you get this book? Is it on Amazon.com? How much was it?

As for my formula, maybe someone DID substiue for something not avaliable here. If so, my question is this:

Is the formula still good with a cool herb inplace of a warm herb?

[guohuen]

Yeah Dragon, Amazon has both of them. Oriental Materia Medica is 64.95, down from 69.96 (What I paid elsewhere):( The yoga of herbs is a paperback and lists for 12.95, but I forgot to check the amazon price.:eek: I think if the formula is balanced by increasing the appropriate heating herb to compensate for the cooler substitution it should be OK. In the perfect world you would have your own formula based on your dosha anyway.

[Pilgrim]

Just some mindless palaver about Chinese herbs. Anyone who knows knows that Chinese hebs don't come from China. It's the thought process that makes it Chiese herbology/medicine. Goldenseal like coptis, scute ,and phellodendron ( a combo known as the three yellows)and contains berberine which is an alkaloid that is yellow. All of these herbs can clear heat and toxins, which is one reason goldenseal like the others is in a jow. Strangely enough, frankensence and myrhh often in jows are and were imported into China from the middle east. American ginseng is grown in places like Wisconsin and the vast majoirity is sold to China to be used as ayin tonic. Dragon's blood is from Indonesia and Malaysia. The Chinese use everything that works and they change with the times and as knowledge is gained and evolves. For example salvia is rarely found in old formulas and now it is very commonly used for shen disturbance and problems with blood and blood flow. Those materia medicas that are available-Bensky, Hsu, Flaws-are just a few of the herbs that are used in China. Every region has it's own herbs, own dialect, own kung fu. Not to say that some herbs, dialects and kung fu are common all over China. Hey I even know a really good trauma docter who puts his jow in plastic bottles-cause they are cheap and cause the jow is used up quickly. Those who know don't say and those who say don't know;all errors if any are mine.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting. I have the Meteria Medica by Bensky you mentioned.

I did'nt realise the Chinese had incorperated Goldenseal into thier system far enough back for to to appear in a "Traditional" Jow formula, that's all.

I did know about the American Ginseng though. It's quite a bit cooler than the Chinese stuff. IT was discovered a long time ago though, and has been imported into China forever. Basically it vertually the same plant as the Panax, so it's only natural that Chinese imagrating to the US would see a good financial oppertuny

[fa_jing]

It isn't the same as iron hand formulae, I suppose, but if you want a frickin great Dit Dao Jao stop by Kangti Taiji center, where the famous Chinese doctor Shi Cun Wu has his herbal shop set up. 5413 N. Clark Street. Ask for the 25-dollar (large-size) bottle, it comes with the herbs intact inside the bottle. I'm sure he could advise you regarding the iron palm formula too.

-FJ

[Royal Dragon]

Hhm, I may have to swing down there one Saturday!!!

[fa_jing]

Yeah, if you do shoot me an e-mail, fajingk@yahoo.com. I live around there and we can grab a bite or something.
Maybe we can ask Dr. Wu WTF those dried seahorses are for. :confused:

:)

[Royal Dragon]

Hey, if you got a park near by, I can show you how bad my Kung Fu has gotten in the last year or so

[Black Jack]

Good Post,

Just for poops and giggles I know that some of the old bare-knuckle western boxers would use either a weak tannic solution or pickle brine to toughen the hands.

Cheers

[fa_jing]

RoyalD - I sent you a PM.

-FJ

[BSH]

Where did you get the formula? That will answer your question. If you want traditional Dit Da, you've got to find someone with the traditional knowledge and recipes.

If you want Ameican Jow, no problem, just don't expect it to do the same thing as traditional Dit Da.

The answer lies in the lineage of the recipe.

[Royal Dragon]

The lineage I got it from is both traditional and authentic, and uncertian and not fully trust worthy at the same time. It "Could" be legit, but then it could also be made up c r a p too, I need someone with a real understanding of this stuff to discusse the issue with and verify it's use and construction before I decide which it is.

[BSH]

I understand the point of your first sentence.

My Dit Da experience is extensive, but only on the usage side. My knowledge of formulae is limited.

This I know: It is easy to tell how authentic it is when you use it. I think you should make the Dit Da and test it. There is a possibility that the combination of herbs in the recipe could be detrimental to your training, but I wouldn't know.

Best of luck.