I got a question... [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

bamboo_ leaf

04-20-2002, 08:01 AM

“Get stronger”

This is very good advice maybe not in the way it was posted.
You don’t fight against the strengths of the other; you utilize the skill and understanding based on your own training.
This is where styles really come into play. Look at how they are structured and the basic premise of the style. All styles have a yielding and ridged applications it’s the nature of our bodies. The styles that tend to use the body and build reactions into it are for the most part called external. Yes, they do involve the mind but the main point is to overcome the others body using training that enhances the physical part of their body.

Other styles work more against the mind, tai chi being one of them. These styles are not easy to understand and take a while to really be able to do it. Why?

I think because there is so much to relearn, most of which is not intuitive to most people. These styles tend to be labeled internal, much of the training is on learning how to use, and sense the different aspects of the mind as well as defining a new way to move the body.

This is called using active awareness verses trained reflexes, the training is very different. IMHO many people have a hard time with it, they are unwilling to give up the idea of strength and overcoming the other.

By getting stronger. ;)

TaiChiBob

04-20-2002, 08:08 AM

Greetings...

Everyone has vulnerabilities.. Study anatomy, Chinese Medical theories regarding energy channels (meridians), and Tai Chi applications.. Personally, i incorporate Chin Na into Tai Chi applications.. Mostly, though, it depends on "intent" and resolve to manifest your intent into your reality.. If you "intend" to understand Tai Chi to its depths, then you will also need the resolve to see that process through to its ultimate reward, no fear..

Patience is the issue, training is the tool, intent is the power of the spirit, resolve is the power of the flesh.. Tai Chi is is the reward..

Foremost, the ability to negotiate a peaceful alternative to conflict is superior to even the greatest Martial Art (IMHO).. Oh, and Tai Chi is a great negotiating tool.. careful posturing and tactical awareness tends to disarm most agressors before things get out of control.. Even the relaxed nature of a Tai Chi player is disconcerting to a would-be troublemaker..

Be well..

beautifulvaley

04-21-2002, 10:24 PM

rip his ears off they look mare attached than they are

Narf Narf

dfedorko@mindspring.com

04-22-2002, 03:53 AM

As sMA we are taught to walk a way from a fight but understanding the consequences sometimes that is not always the case. In that case, if you are the shorter guy I would fight with "intent". When I say that I mean being in a certain frame of mind, killer mode. You are no longer the nice, humble and quiet person you always purvey. You are going to kick A_s. But I agree with TaiChiBob learning/knowing anatomy and where to strike will assist you. You have heard the saying, "The bigger they are the harder they fall". It's true.

Damian

jon

04-22-2002, 04:47 AM

Im just gonna go the dead honest route
It depends totaly on there level of skill.

I have two guys i train with pretty reguarly and we do a fair amount of sparring and contact work.
One is much taller than me and has a background of Wing Chun plus has been studying internals for a while.
One ive posted about before (thunder palm incident) and he is MUCH larger than me both in hieght and in build.

I can do pretty well against the tall WC guy but his range can definately be an advantage. Particualy considering his footwork is fast and he loves to work the outside gate.
The other guy can simply wipe the floor with me at any time he pleases. He is MUCH more powerfull than me and is simply more skilled.

To be brutal.... IME being larger and well trained internaly is actualy a LARGE advantage. I mean lets be totaly honest for a moment. We generate power by whipping our bodys and allowing the force to flow from relaxed muscles from the floor to the point of impact. If someone is larger and also has this skill they simply have much more to hit with.

So to break it down...
With the taller guy i try to stay almost hip to hip and stop him at the source, i stick to him like glue and always avoid letting him get away from me and forcing me to chase him, which is very ineffective considering his range and speed.
The other guy i use the opposite tactic, i stay small and supple as hell and always attempt to work his back. If i get to close im blown back out so i tend to try and stay just out of reach but always so i can slip in easily.

Look at Yang Chen Fu, he was as big as an elephant is his older days and he could throw people accross the room. He was unbeatable in push hands, do you REALLY think this was all 'chi'?
My honest belief is internal is no different to external in this respect, the more you have the more you hit with. If your unfortuate enough to have to fight someone who is both your match in skill AND much larger than you are - i would not be counting on comming out unscathed.
You can always get lucky but trust me when i say my large parter usualy has me sprawling all over the room. In a real fight he could simply wear my hit and exchange it for one that would instantly flaw me.

Repulsive Monkey

04-22-2002, 06:44 AM

Totally disagree with you about Yang Cheng fu. Also with your idea about large bodies generating more Jin cos thats absolute rubbish. Smaller people like Cheng Man Ching was famed for his skill in being able to generate large capacities of Jin on bigger opponents than himself. Many of his students (the Taiwanese ones!!) replicated this too. Their size had nothing to do with the amount of Jin they issued. If that is an external trait then you have proved yourself wrong by saying that internal and external arts are the same.
I agree being well trained internally is a large factor in sucess, but being large is rubbish, it corresponds to nothing at all. I routinely trounce a class mate of mine who is 3 stone heavier and almost a foot taller than me. His body size is not the issue. Nor is anyone elses. If you beleive this then I would seriously query your understanding and experience of internal training.

Kumkuat

04-22-2002, 08:49 AM

Actually, if you get 2 people with identical skills (internal, external or whatever), but one is 150 lbs and the other guy is 250 lbs, chances are that the 250 lb guy will usually win. Either that, the 150 lb guy has to work a lot harder to win.

Nexus

04-22-2002, 09:32 AM

The equality of skill matters far less then the equality of mental strength and will. The only power you will ever truly posses is willpower, and he who posseses more is more likely to survive conflict.

bamboo_ leaf

04-22-2002, 10:29 AM

Jon,

I too think that you have some confusion in this. Size has nothing to do with it, nor strength or speed.

This is the allure of real IMA but I feel few people ever really reach it. They are to busy fighting. this is why there seems to be what i would say is confuison over training methods and uses.
most people on this bbs from what i read base much of their ideas and training on what i would consider extranle practices.

K, I think the whole point is that if you operate from the same ideas as the other(streanght, speed and power) then what you talk about matters. IMA is outside of this again I don’t think many people really get it. At lest this has been my exprince.

really depends on what your after i suppose. i don't say better i just say they are very differnt ideas. as always the one who trains and really undestands his/her art should have the advantage. ;)

Esteban

04-22-2002, 11:51 AM

Hi,

"How does one deal with someone who is stronger?" Fwiw, train so that the opponent's strength won't matter, and when you fight, "don't worry about how strong he is. "
"How do you fight someone taller?" That's no secret, in tcc or boxing, just get "closer." If you're courageous enough, get close enough so that you own (win) his center. Then, you can do what you want.
Just my worthless advice,
Respects,
Esteban

blacktaoist

04-22-2002, 01:25 PM

Eight_Triagram_Boxer How does a smaller or weaker guy fight with a taller or stronger?

1. Prepare Mentally(mindset) and adapt your strategy wisely.
2. You must have coordination of external and internal and the execution of your fighting techniques must be quick. If you fight a big guy you should fight him hard and to the inside. You have to be on a big guy inside to smother his attacks so he can't use his reach against you.(power)

If Your taller opponent is more skilled then you and stronger, then the best method is run as fast you can, so that you can live to fight another day. LOL:D

jon

04-22-2002, 04:12 PM

Repulsive Monkey
With all due repects, i have NO problem with anyone disagreeing with me or not seeing things in my way. I DO have a BIG problem with people simply calling me wrong and then failing to provide ay valid explanation.
Im socaratic in some respects and i REALLY dont care about what your 'ideals' are on fighting larger opponents. I also stated in plain english i was quite capable of mopping up my larger partner who is also not as skilled. The one who is better than me EASILY wipes me to the floor. IME if two people are a match in terms of skill then size and strength can become a very important factor.

If you would like to explain chi for me in a scientific way and use this same analogy to discribe how you issue power then i would LOVE to hear it.
Untill then forgive me if i go with basic science.
Force= MASS times Acceleration.
Hence due to pure physics the larger you are and there better your body mechanics the more force you can generate.

You say...
"Totally disagree with you about Yang Cheng fu."
* Would you mind explaining this? Totaly disagreeing is pretty strong considering your not bringing any facts to the table.

"Smaller people like Cheng Man Ching was famed for his skill in being able to generate large capacities of Jin on bigger opponents than himself."
* Irrelevent, my point is that if he was larger he would have generated even more. Its like a whip, the better your technique is the more you generate. The tougher and more refined your actual whip itself is, the more you generate.

"your idea about large bodies generating more Jin cos thats absolute rubbish."
* Next time you use the terms 'absolute rubbish' to discribe something i have written please also take the time to actualy provide a REASON why you disagree.

"Their size had nothing to do with the amount of Jin they issued."
* respectfully i say thats incorrect. Pure physics, force=mass times acceleration. There is no way around this...
If you have another analogy i would love to hear it.

"If that is an external trait then you have proved yourself wrong by saying that internal and external arts are the same"
* Actualy to me the only that makes an art 'internal' or 'external' is the region it comes from and the styles it shared co development with. Ever looked at our actual symbol for Bagua or Tai Chi? Notice that little black section in there? No such thing as a pure internal art.

"I agree being well trained internally is a large factor in sucess, but being large is rubbish, it corresponds to nothing at all."
* Again please provide some direct evidence or factual basis for this claim? If not your just sprouting off dangerously uneduacated opinions which are actualy detrimental to most students development. Ego and over confidence are issues im sure you know this.

"I routinely trounce a class mate of mine who is 3 stone heavier and almost a foot taller than me. His body size is not the issue."
* I do the same thing and stated it, what would happen if your partner was actualy the same skill level as you?

"If you beleive this then I would seriously query your understanding and experience of internal training."
* That is a rude egotistical and outright disrepectfull thing to say. I would question whether you have actualy seriously tested your art at all let alone actualy thought about how to properly use it.

I dont enjoy responding to posts like this especialy not here, please next time at least give your argument a factual basis. Sifu says and chi explanations will get you sqaut with me.
If my Tai Chi teacher who has studied for fifty years and who's linage actualy comes though YCF can explain power generation and body mechanic without resorting to 'chi' then i fail to see why anyone else shouldnt give it a go. His english is absolutely terrible so you have no excuse.

jon

04-22-2002, 04:25 PM

Bamboo Leaf

I would have to say i have the same sort of problems with your arguement that i do with monkeys. You have been at least polite and for that im thankfull but again you have not really provided a factual base. Only illuded to having some kind of higher knowledge that obviously i dont posses.

My point here is dead simple and others have stated it as well, skill is the main factor but being larger or taller is also an advantage. As is forcing your opponent to face into the sun or deliberately backing them into a corner.
There are many factors involved but to say that size and strength are not part of the equation is imho foolish.
My sifu is very small physicaly and can needless to say wipe the floor with any of us but he is a LOT more skilled. In similar skill levels size becomes a serious advantage. The other thing many neglect is that larger opponents are often well aware of this advantage and WILL use it to there favor.

I again relate back to simple science.
Force=mass times accleration. Vector and gravity can also have some effect but this is the basic truth.

If ANYBODY can provide a method for generating power which somehow gets around the need for the 'mass' factor of the equation i will be all ears.
Can we PLEASE however stick to the facts, or else im just gonna say that that big guy may also have good CHI and you can then deal with the fact he has more due to his increased size. Either way it doesnt matter.

bamboo_ leaf

04-22-2002, 05:14 PM

We agree, my point is that it’s not your power it’s the ability to use their power.

with a 4 oz rope you can pull a 1000lb bull if it is attached to the right place.

This negates all ideas of being stronger, faster,.

The best guys that I have felt used my power to do what ever. This is the skill I talk about. With out real ting jing skill I think this is really very hard to understand.
Next time your sifu dose something to you, try this.

See if you can feel what is happing. My guess would be that it happens before you know it. Can you by just touching someone and using your intent make them lose their balance. The people I work with can.

This is where I’m coming from. IMHO the training for this and mind set is very different then those who think of blowing some one away with the dreaded fa-jing. Just not the same.

I don’t say better, I just say different.

Drone

04-22-2002, 11:50 PM

Have you ever played jenga... remove the base and raise thier chi. then if you are smart, run and get help.

blacktaoist

04-23-2002, 08:38 AM

bamboo leaf-See if you can feel what is happing. My guess would be that it happens before you know it. Can you by just touching someone and using your intent make them lose their balance. The people I work with can.

I think what Bamboo leaf is trying to explain to you guys is a metaphysical method. Advanced energy theories beyond the limits of orthodox martial arts training. From Your above statement Bamboo Leaf, you are talking about projecting energy. This Method for this theory is for the imagination to lead the mind's intent, and the mind's intent to lead the energy.

But anyway as you know few people on this board is on that level of understanding to know what you are talking about. Since theories on the nature of the mind and spirit cannot be easily verified by intellectual analysis or experiment this kind of advanced energy theories you talk about are disbelieved, ridiculed,and even dismissed.

So my advice to you bamboo leaf, when you post sharing information keep your interpretation of martial art methods and theory sample. Hey thats what I do:D

Phantom Menace

04-23-2002, 09:22 AM

Going to the inside is good if the guy you're fighting doesn't know how to grapple. But if he knows how to grapple you will surely be flat on your back.

bamboo_ leaf

04-23-2002, 10:43 AM

Black Taoist,

Thanks I will keep that in mind.
Your post made me smile, you know it. But you don’t say.
I can understand why now.

david

blacktaoist

04-23-2002, 10:49 AM

Phantom Menace-Going to the inside is good if the guy you're fighting doesn't know how to grapple. But if he knows how to grapple you will surely be flat on your back.

Your opinion is valid. Groundfighting skillls are just as important as standing fighting skills. It is to a internal martiai artist best advantage to train both forms of fighting. But I myself have no difficulty sparring with grapplers. My opinion is all a internal martial artist have to practice is a few hours of Tui Shou(push hands) to develop their sticking and listening energy and some freestyle inside fighting is all that is need to deal with them cats. Most of my students have groundfighting backgrounds, so I attain a lot knowledge and learn how to utilize my martial art method to adapt to their why of fighting.

But If a internal martial artist don't learn how to adapt, then your right, a person will be on their back.:(

Ray Pina

04-23-2002, 02:59 PM

BGB: Hook, line and sinker ;)

E-Chuan

Grand Taoism

04-23-2002, 03:26 PM

Hey blacktaoist:

thanks for the tape you sent me, i never in my life saw people move so fast doing pa kua chang it was great. the guy in white doing the circle walking on top of that small table, who was that guy he powerful. check your e-mail i gave you my home number I have a few people that like to start a private class with you. Call me around 8pm

P.S. the tape with your fight was also great, how did you do that flip kick in the air on that beijing guy?

Esteban

04-23-2002, 03:40 PM

HI,

well, grapplers, are nothing new. Though, submission wrestling is relatively new to competitive martial arts. Anyway, how about we turn the question around. Suppose you have a devastating, leg-breaking muay thai kick. What advice would you give your opponent? Imho, if he is not going to come in, then BT is right and he should run away. However, (and we're not really talking about "fights"), if he wanted to win, what should he do? To me, trying to beat you (muay thai) from the outside is not the way to win (not that winning is important :)). I guess the underlying issue is "what happens when you can get your hands on the other guy, but you can't hurt him?" Well, that's a problem, but it shouldn't be related to the "style" of martial arts, only to your effectiveness. I.e., if whatever you've practiced doesn't work, then it doesn't matter how close or far you are. BTW, it wasn't mentioned, but I think there's a big difference between facing someone who is "large" and someone who is "strong." It's hard to suplex someone you can't get your arms around. Just rambling.

Respects,
Esteban

blacktaoist

04-23-2002, 08:54 PM

Grand Taoism,

I will give you a call tomorrow, right know I am at work doing overtime. I e-mailed you my home number.

The Guy in white was Master Lu Zi Jian a Yin style practitioner. As for the flip kick in the air thing, I use to practice Shaolin Fukien Ground Boxing, before Ba Gua Zhang training, So I still know how to utilize a few techniques that I learned.

Talk to you later.

04-24-2002, 12:11 AM

Wow interesting Thread
My begining take on the whole MA study was to cultivate the ability of a smaller person (ie me) to overcome bigger stronger adverseries.

While I think Mass certianly plays a major part in a conflict(especially on those who tense up/panic) I have to agree with Nexus that mental intent to survive/desire to live,is the determining factor when the board is level.

I am sure you are aware of the orgins of the Outward Bound movement after WW1.Research of Mearchant seamen involved in wrecks found that the older seamen (over 50s) survived until rescure while younger seamen perished before rescure.This was put down to a build up of experience in extreme situations and sheer will power.

However I feel that there are as always a lot of varibles to factor in,when discussing this sort of thing.For example when people refer to skill levels please realize that the body shape of a person often determines a particular skill that he/she may be very good at.Please refer to a Heavy weight Boxing match then watch a bantum weight fight.They are from the same dicipline however there are many differences(yeah I know thats why there is weight divisions).(This is just a general example,please don't say its not internal:rolleyes: )

I recently read on the emag a quote from Minamoto refering to the fact that even an untrained swordman could take out a master when using something new/unorthodox/unexpected.

Anyway good thread

red_fists

04-24-2002, 12:24 AM

I recently read on the emag a quote from Minamoto refering to the fact that even an untrained swordman could take out a master when using something new/unorthodox/unexpected.

That of course being the reason why there were so many different MA Insturctors at the Imperial Court and around there.

The Bodyguards needed a level of skill where they could face bassically any Opponent, while prefeeably being able to counter with a move that the Opponent didn't know.
Knowing what weapons/techs the Opponents brings to a fight goes a long way towards winning the fight.

Peace.

04-24-2002, 02:32 AM

Sure, Absolutely,
What I am trying to allude to that its often experience (whether that be from getting out and dirty or by a comphensive training) in various situations(I am not just talking about fighting here) that require that extra bit of grit/heart/intent to see it to the end.

If I start talk about acquiring schaemata for situations would that be losing the plot abit or are you all still with me?

Anyway Like I said my whole original defenition of MA was for the small to overcome the large in any situation.

TaiChiBob

04-24-2002, 05:11 AM

Greetings..

However over-used the analogy, the mother lifting the auto to rescue her child scenario is still valid.. Harness that level of "intent" and size is of no concern..

There are too many variables to make a reasonable assertion for this question.. One's ability to absorb attacks is as important as the ability to issue an attack.. In my past training, we would put a towel over a fighter's head, strike him at various places (including the head), pull the towel off and see if they could weather another attack.. If not, they weren't permitted to fight full-contact..

All things being equal, skill, experience, intent, and plain toughness.. the larger fighter has the advantage of size, the smaller fighter has bigger targets to hit.. Sifu says, "first mistake is to worry about it at all".. what i think he means is that to consider that size is a major factor, is to empower it to be so.. He says "just do what you do, too much worry, not enough do"..

For those that can't (won't) accept the higher levels referred to by others like Bamboo Leaf, remember.. until man invented the microscope no one believed that tiny germs could kill people.. (size didn't matter).. that those higher levels exist is fact, that some can't accept that fact does not change it..

In the end, size does matter.. but, it is the size of your belief in youself, the size of your willingness to train, the size of your capacity to accept the less tangible aspects of the Being you are..
the size of your spirit..

Just another perspective from the far-side.. be well..

Kaitain(UK)

04-24-2002, 07:00 AM

Blacktaoist and Bamboo Leaf - the problem is that you cannot expect people to understand the metaphysical stuff even if they have experienced it. I've experienced it and I still don't relate it to my own training. It's not fair to patronize people for putting forward their own ideas that don't encompass your understanding of chi and so on - and it's a fair point to expect physical explanations for power generation (which is an issue aside from chi manipulation). In my experience, everything that at somepoint seemed mystical to me in my training eventually has an easy explanation based on my physical understanding. (explain to a complete beginner the idea of rooting - he sees your lips move but he cannot being to understand it)

FWIW my Sifu (who does the Chi manipulation stuff as well - although not in the 'chi bolt from 20 foot' school of thought, he tends to work at contact range) says exactly the same as some of the guys on here - the bigger you are the more potential energy you have. But he also argues that after a point it's irrelevant as the level of power a skilled practitioner can generate is sufficient to nail anyone. In straight Peng pushing I am stronger than him (8 inches height and about 80 pounds larger) - but that's in a straight tendon-building exercise of force against force. As soon as skill becomes involved I never get the opportunity to utilise that power.

I also agree with the point that someone who is more powerful than you is only an issue if you engage in a force-against-force fight - which is sometimes unavoidable if the opponent is more skillful and chooses to take you there.

My last point is something of a challenge (of ideals) to Bamboo Leaf - you advocate/believe (as far as I understand you) in the use of 4 ounces, the Yin route to victory. That's fine for an entry in my system but there's a point where we switch to Yang and utilise all of our power to end the situation - at which point power capacity is important. Clearly this is an idealistic difference in styles - but it doesn't make either of us wrong.

And to answer the original question - I wouldn't do anything different - get contact (if necessary) and hit them. The only truly daunting opponent is the one with more skill - anything else is irrelevant (aside from guns, knives, lots of friends etc :))

Ray Pina

04-24-2002, 08:27 AM

"My begining take on the whole MA study was to cultivate the ability of a smaller person (ie me) to overcome bigger stronger adverseries. "
:) :) :)

One word: Technique.

You can intent till the cows come home and shoot chi out your a$$ to the moon, without good technique the small will never overcome the large. How big are you? The biggest? How fast are you? The fastest?

What about the other guy? He doesn't have the ability to call on inherent strenght at the time of need? Never dove for that extra three yards to cross the enzone? Never got that cup of coffeee to pull the all nighter to get his work in on time?

Everyone has that ablity in them and calls it out from time to time. Yes, we specialize in that. But without technique, you are playing variables, rolling the dice, double or nothing.

Poeple talk yielding this and yielding that, and then stand there pushing at each other with force. Or, "relax", "relax", "relax", and shove the unexpecting guy across the room. Or train technique, and then I go to look at matches and see kick boxing, no different between Tae Kwon Do, Karate, or Hung Gar.

Technique is the the only answer. You must have it, or you'll never beat the bigger/younger/stronger man. You do not need technique to beat the 5 year old -- or very stupid, or the very bad.

bamboo_ leaf

04-24-2002, 08:30 AM

Think of it like this,

If you have the thought of using force in your mind you will. some one who is very good can tell this and use it.

there is no yin or yang, they are not separate but in a dynamic balance.

The body and mind are in balance, able to respond to out side changes with the ability to change. As soon as you use force or even think of it your out of balance. At the first touch you must know this.

The other half is using consciousness to direct your actions instead of trained reflexes. This means that the mind is totally involved from the beginning to the end and beyond the movement. Since you are not using LI “force” Your movements are flexible and lite this allows you to be able to change and follow.

this is also why sung “relax” is key I mean real sung. Both in mind and body. No hared points in the body no idea of force in the mind.

The other way, the way that most people use I believe is a kind of feed back system. The action is preformed and corrected based on the result.

The problem with this is that once the action is started it cannot be changed; the mind is waiting to see what happened and then will correct. This way is slow compared to some one who can use the shen/ and yi.

This is also why to some extent the ability to gen. Force may not be as important as the ability to listen. It really depends on how and what your art is based on your level, understanding and ability. a teacher is key in this.

Every ones thoughts are valid to their own experience. If I sound like I am patronizing, please it’s not my intent. There are many here with far more experience and understanding then me.

This ability and understanding is what I seek in my own practice, I don’t know if it makes one a better fighter or not, only that it is the direction of my own journey.

i like it here we walk a road that is not easy, we all help each other along the way. :)

david

Ray Pina

04-24-2002, 08:36 AM

I agree 100% with everything you just said.:) Bamboo, I know that you know.

PS Grand Taoism, I have a Toaist riddle for you:

Why seek coal, when there is a doimand in your pocket?
;)

Kaitain(UK)

04-24-2002, 08:57 AM

I guess what I'm getting it is that there is a point where you stop listening and explode

As I stick and get past my opponents outer defence there is a point where I feel a 'trigger' - I know it's right to issue energy at this point. This usually happens as soon as I've stuck to my opponent - and it's thoughtless, there's no time to think about what I'm doing, it just happens...

Not sure if that helps clarify what I'm getting at

blacktaoist

04-24-2002, 01:16 PM

Kaitain(UK)It's not fair to patronize people for putting forward their own ideas that don't encompass your understanding of chi and so on -

BT)I Don't understand the point you are trying to make, I never patronize anyone on this web page. I just gave my own opinion and advise to bamboo leaf thats all nothing more, People are free to have belief in their methods of training martail arts, I can careless I know what works for me , so that what matters too me.

Kaitain(UK)and it's a fair point to expect physical explanations for power generation (which is an issue aside from chi manipulation).

BT)If anybody on KFO gives a physical physical explanations for power generation or even martial techniques I'm one of them. So your post reply to me in my opinion is aimless. Because I don't definition or interpret my way of training the internal martial arts in a esoteric way, But I do have a deep understanding of energy theory and cultivation methods that was taught to me.

Most Guys up here don't have any understanding of Metaphysical methods and Theorys, I knew this from the first few post replys, Most didn't know what bamboo leaf was talking about.

So I see nothing wrong in telling bamboo leaf to keep his interpretations sample, I don't this as a form of patronize any one. After all most on KFO are novice.

TaiChiBob

04-24-2002, 04:20 PM

Greetings..

It is not my policy to advise others, only to offer my own understanding and experiences.. to offer support whenever someone else has similar offerings, or gives me cause to expand my own experiences..

In the matter of "technique", i would agree.. with a simple qualification.. Technique is not limited to form, execution, or style.. "Technique", by my own accounting, is the methodology with which one approaches the totality of their chosen path.. Too few people are willing to invest the time, dedication and loss to reap the benefits of the depths of Tai Chi.. Too many others are too eager to discount experiences they haven't personally attained.. I, personally, am eager to listen to all opinions.. sort out those that have merit according to my current ability to comprehend, and save the others in case they mature into valuable lessons later..

Kudos to Mr. Leaf, (David).. an excellent observation regarding the Yin/Yang relationship, dynamic and interdependent.. never exclusive.. Respectful bows to ALL, we have an opportunity to expand the realization of Tai Chi through this media.. Mutual respect could be quite helpful.. even the novice can benefit from exposure to differing opinions, to more experienced insights..

Be well..

Nexus

04-24-2002, 04:42 PM

Children have great intent. Watch them. Learn.

red_fists

04-24-2002, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Nexus
Children have great intent. Watch them. Learn.

Agreed, watching my Son grow to his current age has given me a new understanding of intent and internal concepts.
And a good renewed respect for it.

Now I understand what my Sifu means when she sez that Tai Chi is supposed to make us like a small child again.
:D :D

blacktaoist

04-24-2002, 05:55 PM

There are more then one definition for the word advice, suggestion, opinion, suggest ect.... just like some one on KFO may interpret your statement Here as advice:

TaiChiBob-only to offer my own understanding and experiences to offer support whenever someone else has similar offerings, or gives me cause to expand my own experiences

Just My perspective from the world of interpretation be well. :D

Kaitain(UK)

04-25-2002, 12:49 AM

After the initial paragraph it was just a general reply. I should have made that clear in the post. I rarely get to read your posts actually as they seem to be rarer than rocking horse s.hit :)

Finally - Leaf did not differentiate between metaphysical manipulation through contact and using physical technique. His original post seemed to imply that they were the same thing (I guess you could argue that that's what internalising the art actually is).

My apologies if you feel misrepresented

Aside from that I'd like to move to the discussion on the Yin/Yang relationship:

Leaf - you say Yin/Yang are in constant balance, but can you define what you mean? There are so many different levels and layers of this relationship that I could use a little more clarity to be clear. (To me it's a bit of a truism.)

i.e. If I strike someone it could be said that the part of me that's striking is 99% Yang 1% Yin - but equally the point furthest from where I release the energy is 1% Yang 99% Yin. I'm in balance but I'm also at extremes. So when I move from sticking to striking it's not a switch of energy, but an increase of the Yang portion of that energy with a corresponding increase of Yin somewhere else. (This is all getting a bit too theoretical for my liking - sorry)

It's more like a sine wave than a 0/1 relationship. Not sure if that's what you mean

blacktaoist

04-25-2002, 07:29 AM

Kaitain(UK)My apologies Now that you explain, I know where you are coming from.

bamboo_ leaf

04-25-2002, 08:48 AM

the idea of striking already puts you out of balance. For me TC is an art that strives to maintain a dynamic balance. There is no separation in yin and yang.

This means the one attacking or striking is already out, by changing and adjusting to their out of balance condition they end up either thrown out, or something broken. It depends on how much force they use and the speed of the change.

We can talk of them as separate, but really they are not, what happens is that the other can not change when the echo returns they are carried away by their own sound. Its like throwing a ball as hard as you can not expecting it to bounce back or pull you with it. When it dose if you can’t handle it then you have a problem.

The out of balance starts with the intent to strike, with the fist touch you must know this otherwise it’s to late. the higher the level they can sense the intent befor the action. I think people see high level people doing things and feel like they are using there own power, in some cases this may be true but for the most part it’s the ability to induce the other to be out of balance both in mind and body.

This really is very hard, takes a long time IMO and not many that I have met can really do it. Why ?

I think the temptation to do something is to great. They want to feel and use the power. This is really different then seeking stillness and emptiness inside. They say the simplest is often the most hardest, I concur.

Some one mentioned the size of YCF. Yes he was big, but if his art was only based on his size and strength all would know it, who would follow ? once people touched him they knew something was very differnt.

None of what I say makes anyone invincible or the greatest fighter, but I find it dose give one a very different perspective and reason for training. Yes, you must be able to demonstrate your understanding though ability of use. Other wise its just empty words. been slamed a few times because its what i follow, at that time my level wasn't quite there. its better now but still a very long way to go. :)

i have been at this for awhile, the people that i have met who i would say have this ability are really very few.

david

Ray Pina

04-29-2002, 06:11 AM

Taichi Bob,

I agree with what you are saying about technique, its the methodology. That's my point.

Saying to train harder to overcome the bigger guy (not you who said this) is rediculous. Or to rush in and jam him. Anyone experince the little kid trying to hit them and you just laughingly extend an arm and hold him back. That's what a big guy with any skill will do, but he'll beat you with the other hand. That is not the answer. Everyone keeps trying to come up with a physical solution. The solution, as TaichiBob said, is in methodology.

Don't be there. That's what my master, and BaGuaBoxer's master, stresses. This is our way. Hit while not being able to be hit. Kick while not being able to be kicked. I know is sounds crazy. As a MA I wouldn't believe it either. I had to see it.

"Blessed are those who believe without seeing" -- Jesus.;)

Walter Joyce

05-18-2002, 07:24 AM

Just a quick regurgitation of something I learned years ago. It supposedly applies to one on one fighting or warfare.

1. If your opponenet is shorter/smaller and stronger, keep him at bay by using your long range techniques, and slowly wear him down by attacking his weapons from a safe range. When you have weakened him, go in for the kill.
2. If your opponent is taller/bigger and weaker, attack aggressively, driving into his center using infighting methods and take him out.
3. If your opponent is taller/bigger and stronger, hit and run, again attacking his weapons but now when you are close as well as from a safe range, in and out type of fighting relying on speed and quickness. The goal is to wear him down, then go in for the finish. (think guerilla warfare, or Bruce Lee fighting Norris in the coliseum scene)
4. If your opponent is smaller/shorter and weaker, attack aggressively, but intelligently, limiting his ability to run by either cornering him, or grappling him to the ground.

I believe the original source for this is Sun Tzu, but it has been recycled over the years. If someone already posted this, my apologies, I jumped from the first page of the thread to the last.
Good training,
Walter