What do you think of these guys stances??

[diego]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid3/p6ce7e8a43cb0c57d5878a7ca0b69cf66/fe3daf82.jpg.orig.jpg

you think the chinese didnt tell them everything, due to invasions?, i mean if they turn thier toes striaight and center, it would be kungfu, how they do, karate looks awkward?, whats the purpose of this toilet stance?,
Thanks:)

[diego]

lol, the funny thing is the kid in the back is doing it right, and his senoir in front in the white gi isnt:D

[Merryprankster]

Funny thing is... that their stances don't matter much if they are kicking people's asses when they fight.:cool:

[old jong]

Stances (in karate or any other martial arts) are not for posing or making the ennemy affraid but,for specific defensives or offensives reasons!
They matter for those who are serious in the study of these arts.

[Merryprankster]

How is it that we perpetually talk past each other? :)

I mean that in the friendliest way.

You're right in that they aren't for posing--and that's exactly my point. A static picture like this tells you absolutely nothing about what the person can DO (except maybe stand in a stance). I've met plenty of guys with kinda goofy wrestling/boxing/judo stances, that have done fine.

Secondly, just cause they aren't doing it the way that you (universal you) learned it doesn't mean its being done wrong, unless you simply can't fight from it.

[diego]

i know but you know how you always see in a kungfu movie, the student will punch, then the teacher will slap him, and correct his posture, look at everyones posture thier thier all over the place, maybe 6 people are doing the same thing:) although for the training time they put in back then in 34, and how we grew up with tv and videos, time spent theyd prolly kick my ass in comparison, also if you look at the kid in the back upperright corner, hes basically doing nanchuan southernfist kungfu, and the guy in the fron bottom left corner, directly in front of him, hes doing karate, look at the guy in the middle, i think hes thinking about dinner :D look at thier rear hands, thier all over the place, some mimic correct nanchuan form some look like karate some look bored, and its mr miyagis gojuryu kids class, hes standing right thier, thats why styles like ipman wingchun have so many variations, the teachers unconcerned, if you get it you get it:rolleyes: :D

[David Jamieson]

The picture is of a class of students and they are learning. i don't see anything wrong with the picture in that context.

Take a look around your own school and have understanding of the various levels of ability.

Horse stance comes in as many varieties as horses themselves.
There is no "one" way of doing anything in martial arts. If there was only one way, then the martial arts would have faded a long time ago.

peace

[diego]

ah but karate comes from kungfu, and iron knuckle pan in the kfmag article calls that horse the toilet stance and its wrong for kungfu, so i started to laugh, maybe the chinese didnt give the japanese proper instruction?!.
Its kind of a odd joke on martial politics:cool:

[Merryprankster]

Fair enough diego :D

No reason for us to get all serious then, yeah :)

[anton]

Well, by comparison to what I was taught... Their legs are to close together for such a low stance, some of their bodies are leaning forward (causing their asses to stick out), and their toes are pointing so far outward that I cannot imagine this not adversely affecting their balance.
On general principles... it just doesn't look like a very natural stance, thoroughly uncomfortable, from my position. To me this picture is the epitomy of the uncomfortable stiffness that you occasionally hear cma practitioners criticise karate for.

On the plus side, they are holding their non-leading hand in front of their bodies, which you don't always see in karate.

[HuangKaiVun]

Japanese people (Southeastern Asians in general) have different physiology from Westerners and Northern Chinese.

We have shorter legs in comparison to the rest of our bodies, and we have a lot more squatting in our culture. It's easy for us to hold low powerful stances and get in and out of them regardless of toe in or toe out.

For example, Pan Qing Fu has a very different body type from me. I'm Taiwanese, so I'm built closer to the floor than him. My legs are slightly bowlegged (unlike his), so even when my toes are facing outwards I have very good balance and mobility in a low horse stance. His body composition wouldn't work with these types of techniques, but mine DOES.

To me, this class looks pretty darned good. The placement of the guard hand as shown by these students is TYPICAL of traditional Japanese karate. They're posing for the photograph.

As for usage of these forms, remember that traditional Japanese karate expected its practitioners to come it with their own applications. In combat, I've used this technique to grab a guy's grappling arm with one hand and hit him with the other.

[old jong]

I was not feeling bad about you (or your comment) at all!...I was just pointing out that "stances" like your "positions" are not a static thing. They have fonctions and must not be seen as useless.This image could be from kata practice or ki-hon and it is easy to see the various levels of these students for somebody with some general knowledge in karate.

[anton]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
[B]Japanese people (Southeastern Asians in general) have different physiology from Westerners and Northern Chinese.

We have shorter legs in comparison to the rest of our bodies, and we have a lot more squatting in our culture. It's easy for us to hold low powerful stances and get in and out of them regardless of toe in or toe out.

Well, my sifu was from hong kong and we had a lot of southeast asian students a one stage (both from Hong kong, Indonesia, Phillipines). Every time he saw someone squatting he would kick their feet out to make their stance wider. When he saw someone with their toes out he would call it "Donald Duck stance" and tell them to point them forward - this seems logical as your legs are already pretty wide apart, giving you a lot of stability laterally, but not much from the front/back, so toes are pointed forward to give maximum support. I can also stand quite stably with my toes out (I'm from a peasant Russian background - we too have been squatting over holes for thousands of years :) - also ever seen Russian folk dancing?) but I'm sure that it would take a much more forceful push to topple me when my toes are pointing forward. Another reason would be the way the knee also turns inwards, providing a bit more protection to your groin.

I may concede that a lot of people point their toes outward, but surely you're not defending the protruding backsides. This posture reminds me of what you always see beginners do - the posture seems easier at the start, but is actually useless as it both fails to strengthen your hips and highly limits movement.
When you haven't done much static training your hips are weak and inflexible, so you stick your backside out and lean forward as this makes standing in horse stance easier (at which point sifu comes over and kicks your ass - literally :) ). However in terms of static training - this is not the best for training your hips. And as you become used to standing like this, you invariably revert to this stance in application, forms or any drills involving movement - such a stance is a strong limit on movement. As I did CLF, this was quite evident as a lot of movement/twisting of the upper body is required.

[diego]

What you guys mentioned about bieng russian and japanese, and generations of squaters?
Thats very curious.

[anton]

Originally posted by diego
What you guys mentioned about bieng russian and japanese, and generations of squaters?
Thats very curious.

well... if your ancestors come from a country where the rural areas are still so underdeveloped that they still have no gas or electricity or running water, its pretty natural that they probably had no choice but to squat over a hole - heck we occasionally had to do it at school camp in Australia. Its not something specific to Russia - go back a few generations and chances are your ancestors were squattin too unless they were aristocracy or something.
However I doubt any of this has any effect on kung fu training... I just picked up on the point as HuangKaiVun alluded to it.

[scotty1]

I started out at a Lau Gar class where we were told to point our toes out. This is something to do with the way we got into the stance. Obvioulsly, arse should be in.

I attended a few 5 animals classes where I was told to straighten the feet and widen the stance.

Now I'm back to a kickboxing class with a different Lau Gar instructor. Everything he does is very kung fu oriented. His horse stance is feet outward too. It actually hurts my legs more than the wider feet forward stance, so in that respect, bearing in mind that it is not used for fighting, it is more effective in training my legs. I also believe that feet out is easier on the knees, which I think is a large consideration.


The whole reason we do horse is for conditioning the legs, so if the feet outward stance is easier on the knees while being harder on the legs, then its all good.