The Most Deadly or the Biggest CON?

[Joakim Svensson]

Have you ever had a chance to study with someone that left you with the feeling that he or she could kill you; just like that, in a few seconds?

If so why and who?

Or did you just have to take their word for it and go on blind faith that they had a high level of skill?

And then to find out 10 years later that you were decieved?:mad:

[Redd]

How many people has your teacher killed?

How many fights has he been in? Who with? How many has he won?

Is this part of a marketing campaign or are you always so condescending?

Are you a member of a cult?

How old are you?

[Joakim Svensson]

Perhaps you have never met anyone that gives you this feeling. If I were you I would continue to search because these are the people you want to study from. Not someone that has a bunch of hype.

It is an honest question.

I am interested in hearing from others that feel they have been exposed to teachers that have a high skill level.

And if they have why did they feel the teacher could kill them. And who were they?

And by the way I am 32 and have been doing martial arts for 16 years.

[Redd]

One question answered, others remain. Your own rhetoric raises the questions.

Heres another. Why are you and your classmates fixated on the idea that your teacher can kill you?

[Joakim Svensson]

I really should not say this on this forum, please do not tell anyone ...he works for the <CIA.

[yuanfen]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

[yuanfen]

Hush! the KGB, whats left of Savak, PRC intelligence, the ISI,
Scotland Yard and Spectre might find out. Maybe the Mosav knows already.!! No more Krav Marga at least.

[anerlich]

I'm more interested in an instructor's knowledge and his ability to impart it, rather than some subjective feeling of deadliness.

This is an age when any moron can get a gun and shoot someone, or hijack a plane and kill thousands.

Both of my instructors have demonstated their ability to cause injury and pain, and one has an extensive and successful record in the ring. Neither has killed anyone and I'm sure neither ever want to go through such an awful experience. I'm looking to be able to defend myself, not become an assassin.

One of my si-hings was a member of the Australian SAS. He's about the only person I've met that I even considered such notions about during my long involvement with MA. The military is still the only real training ground for killers (no disrespect to soldiers, sometimes that has to be done to keep the world a safe place).


And by the way I am 32 and have been doing martial arts for 16 years.

Lucky boy. I'm 47 and been at it since 1977. I doubt anyone else cares.


And then to find out 10 years later that you were decieved?

Presumably you have, otherwise you wouldn't bring it up. Is there something you want to share?

[red_fists]

Yawn.

Boring topic and a waste of time.

What is the most "deadly" Arts, etc.
What you do is EITHER deadly OR NOT, and ANYTHING you do can be DEADLY.

Or can you kill yourself better in a Porsche than in a Model Ford T.

Or will the most deadly Art kill you any deader can a good shot with a brick to the Head from a street punk.

This is just as bad as the Topic that TMA training is not effective and useless.

Great now we got some grown up Kids that did MMA for a few years telling us that modern day unarmed Combat is WAAAYYY different than 100yrs or a few Centuries ago.
But than I guess modern MA are SOOO much BETTER and SKILLED than any MA that went before them.
GUYS & GALS the heydays of TRUE MA are gone.

All I got to say to those People.
WAKE UP and use your Head.
There is nothing better, worse of ineffective, it depends on YOU the Fighter and how you use what has been taught to you regardless of method.

All your new fangled Ideas are nothing new,�@unless you really believe that modern Day man is better than their fore-fathers.

RANT OVER.

[DelicateSound]

What are you wusses saying!?!? Of course it matters how hard your Sifu is!



Jesus Christ - forget girly stuff, like how well he can "impart knowledge" and how comfortable and interesting the lessons are - that stuff only makes you a better fighter!



The best thing is when your Sifu can kill over 10 armed assailants simultaneously with his bare hands. Only then can you act like a real loser on an internet forum.




Jesus, you guys know sod all............ :rolleyes:

[Fresh]

New the neighborhood and already challenged to a daddy ding dong contest! :D

[dezhen2001]

i do get the feeling that my Sifu can deal with anyone he plays chi sau with effortlessly, but that's because he's our Sifu :D All the skill we have come from him, so of course he's better...

as to killing someone or whatever - why would he want to do that? Doesn't mean his skill level is any higher than someone who hasn't. It doesn't take that much 'skill' to kill someone anyways - any street punk/drunken brawler can probably do it just as easily.

Red Fists: good Rant! :)
DS: LOL :D

david

[wingchunner]

While taking a break, I flipped on the tele and happened across a local martial arts studio from a neighboring city. What I saw was horrifying. The martial arts presented was so bad and sloppy. They showed a segment of free-sparring between the head instructor and a student. The student got more techniques in on the instructor than the instructor got in on the student. Plus, there was no consistency between the way they trained and how they sparred. They also had a self defense segment. It was complicated and required precise manuevering in order for it to work properly. Not only that, you had to have speed and strength in order to utilize it. They also showed a segment from a recent tournament that they had hosted (and a school that I had formally be a large part of was there) and they all looked horrible, at least the clips that I saw. My point is that these poor people are paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a bunch of crap. Yes, that's their right, but they don't know it's not crap.

I was involved in a school for nearly a decade and received honors and reached a high level of rank. I had maxed out the style. The instructor said he had a lot of stuff to teach me, but what he showed me was a bunch of crap. I started searching on my own for either more stuff or better stuff. I was fortunate enough to attend a Wing Chun class with Carl Dechiara where he opened up my eyes to bigger and better things.

Having some hindsight now, I wished someone would have had the guts to tell me that the stuff I was studying was crap and I should try what they have. It would have saved me a bunch in time and money and energy.

I know that some of the things that have been said on this forum seem like we're part of a cult. But, this is far from the truth. If we were part of a cult, we would say that 'Carl is the answer'. All we have said is Carl is an excellent instructor, fighter, and person. However, Carl regularly brings in people from all over the world in and gives seminars, and these people are THE TOP people in the martial arts. To be able to spend time with these people would cost us tens of thousands of dollars in airfares, hotel, food, and then the cost of the training, too. We are able to get to train with Carl and these other people for only a few hundred a seminar. Carl keeps none of the money. Joakim is in a different country than where I train (Carl's home school), so Joakim and their club out in Sweden do pay Carl quite a bit to come out there and teach them. So, they are definitely passionate about Carl and what Carl has to show them. If you were to check out the website below and call or email Carl, you would find out that he is passionate about Wing Chun and his teacher Kenneth Chung. He wouldn't talk about himself unless you asked him about himself.

Carl has also travelled to China with Kenneth Chung to visit top people in the martial arts. Why? It gives them perspective as to where they are at with there skill level. Not only that, Carl has invited some back to give seminars so we have a chance to see and experience these highly skilled people first hand. What an awesome opportunity!

I feel very fortunate to have an instructor like Carl that is willing to travel and bring back knowledge and people, like Kenneth Chung, so we can grow right along with Carl, as we can see Carl's skill continues to grow, even though it is already at a high level. He's not satisfied with remaining stagnate. He want's to continue to grow.

The reason why Joakim asked about 'killing someone' isn't about the blatant act of 'killing someone'. Rather, it's about complete control, over oneself and the other person. Some of these guys that Carl brings in, like Ken, will rock you to the core with what seems as little as a nonchalant push. They penetrate so precisely that there is no way to describe it, it has to be experienced. You seriously cannot get to them at all even if you had wanted to, you couldn't lay a hand on them. Carl can also rock you to the core, with what seems as a nonchalant push. If you want to spend thousands of dollars and try to walk in the footsteps that he has already walked. Fine, you're welcome to. But, what if you could get all of that at a fraction of the cost and all at one time. I think that's exciting. You also have to remember that some of these extremely skilled martial artist may not want to take many more people as students anyways. Why? They're getting up in age and may not wish to take on anymore new students, they may not have the time, or they just may not be interested in it.

That's why we're so excited about what's happening at our school. I'm telling you that if you are not sure that your instructor has great skill, Carl's a guy worth emailing or calling. Check out the website below for that information. Wouldn't it make sense to send him an email or call just to find out? I sure as heck would if I was still back at the other school that I had trained in. Email is (nearly) free, so what's the risk?

Marty

[dezhen2001]

i know what you mean about the Sifu or senior being able to do things effortlesly on you. I easily get tapped or pushed, pulled and generally moved all over the place by my Sihing and Sifu when we play chi sau! :) Lucky i'm so bad - everyone can be my teacher ;)

david

[planetwc]

Joakim,

Long time no see (since the last SF Camp).

I think that everyone will experience and believe that their current teacher is skillfull and has extraordinary abilities. Otherwise, why would they study with them?

This opinion sometimes changes over time or due to disillusionment because of some event or perhaps maturity in the student. Or martial "politics" raises it's ugly head.

So, ALL of us think we are getting competant instruction in Wing Chun. Who would honestly state that they currently had a poor teacher who had little to no skill or ability to deal out damage?

And when someone posts about how great their instructor is, it leaves the others here cold, as in effect it is saying...

Your instructor may be fine, but mine is super fine!

It may not be your intention, and it is always nice to see exuberance and passion in Wing Chun study. The problem is, in our WC community there is often a tendency to take our own feelings and experiences and promote them as a "way". It ignores that each Wing Chun student has the same kind of feelings (some may express them, some may keep it to themselves).

Hence you get this dissonance in reponse. It may be that you have felt the hands of your teacher giving you a "wakeup call" to true skill. And you want to alert others to what is "out there".

That is a sincere feeling. But it can come off as "sifu" promotion, which never wins any fans. :(

It obscures the message and doesn't really get the hoped for result. Anyway, just an observation on my part.

As to your question, I think it boils down to 4 things:

Does your teacher have the ability to demonstrate Martial skill, something beyond brute force?

Can your teacher impart their skill to you? ie is their martial skill transferable?

Do you enjoy learning from this teacher and does the time you spend provide value to you personally?

When push came to shove, could you utilize the skills you are trying to learn? Or might you withold deploying them because of the consequences of your actions?

regards,

David

[Nthman]

I train at the Minnesota Kali group and I am pretty sure Rick Faye could kill/maim/permanently impair me in about 2-3 seconds depending on the method he was using heh heh heh His movements are extremely flowing and precise and he obviously has been training hard for many years...crazy he also knows waaaaay more than any one person should.


At least it would be entertaining for those watching!

heh heh heh

[dezhen2001]

Nthman: lol :D

david

[Smoke909]

It doesn't matter who's your Sifu or my Sifu or anyone's Sifu. The amount of years training means nothing as well. It's the quality of your OWN training and not the quantity. He who achieves skill first is the senior.

Even if someone's Sifu isn't good, the student can become a proficient fighter IF he trains hard. We all have 2 Sifus: our Sifu and ourselves.

If your Sifu is a good Sifu AND you train hard, you WILL become better than your teacher.

Everyone has the ability to kill, some more than others. Wing Chun was designed for assassination and so, anyone can do so with minimal skill and knowledge. Obviously, you don't need to learn Wing Chun to do so with guns and all, but what makes a person capable of killing is within himself. Not everyone can do it, even in a moment of rage. It is once again up to the individual.

No one way is THE way. Try and find your OWN way in Wing Chun. Students from the same teacher will differ in skill.

Yip Man once said to not BLINDLY believe what anyone tells you, not even your Sifu, but to try it out, test it, see if it works for YOU. That way you won't be deceived.

Never forget that Wing Chun is for the thinking person.

Smoke909

[Frank Exchange]

>> Wing Chun was designed for assassination and so, anyone can do so with minimal skill and knowledge. <<

I have never heard that before, that wing chun was designed for assassination.

Have you got any references for this?

regards
Frank

[yuanfen]

Can someone develop a rating scale for the microseconds it takes for <fill in the blank> a wc sifu to do real damage?:D (for insurance purposes<g>)

[red5angel]

I think other then the odd way this thread was started, sorry Joakim, its a good question. WC is to do damage, for the more altruistic, do the lesser of two damages. Soft Wing Chun is as ridiculous as hard wingchun or am I way off?

[Smoke909]

Hey Frank

The reference is from the article Gu Lao 40 Point wing chun kuen by Robert Chu:

"These second-generation students worked undercover as a Red Boat Cantonese Opera troupe by day and Anti Qing terrorists by night."

"Their goal was to overthrow the Mancurian goverment and restore the Chinese Ming to the throne of China. Wing Chun Kuen was their art of choice. They could hide knives in their loose fitting garments and assassinate Qing officials in the narrow alleys of Southern China. As an Opera Troupe, they moved about freely at any time without suspicion."

"It is speculated at this point in the history of Wing Chun Kuen development, there were no set forms, as it was the goal of this training to be applied immediately to serve the purpose of self defense or assassination."

This was right before Leung Jan in Wing Chun timeline.

Smoke909

[planetwc]

As the Chinese Imperial Bureacracy was good at keeping records, including who they put to death as part of their crackdown on anti government rebellions, my question would be what record is there of assasinations of government officials?

Especially in alleyways of all places?

Unless this was just terrorists killing some local low level underling, it would strike me as odd that:

1) A tax collector would not be travelling with security.

2) Members of the ruling class would not be "hanging out" in some alley waiting to be picked off.

So were our Wing Chun ancesters just boneheaded barbarian/terrorists killing the local stiff who worked in the government?

The writings on the Tiandihui seem to suggest that most of these secret societies were the province of theives, crooks and scoundrels who preyed on the local populace and engaged in the equivalent of pyramid schemes, extortion and "Al Qaida" like dreams of ruling their locality. Those that rose up in rebellion and took over areas were eventually put down harshly by the government.

Other than pulp fiction novels, I'd wonder where there is the evidence for Wing Chun being the ninjutsu of China.

In other words, where there is a group perpetrating killing of government officials etc. there is generally also going to be government records of said actions and the countermeasures taken to find and kill them, crush their group etc.

There ARE records of the Qing government trying and executing Triad/Secret Society members--so there should be records of this kind of activity (minus the fact that Wing Chun was the means of killing).

So how many Qing officials were assasinated along the travel routes of the Red Boats?

[reneritchie]

Hi Dave,

Those are excellent points. I wish more people would look into the actual history when analyzing the various folk accounts, which are what the stories of assassinations are.

While annecdotal accounts in some branches mention assassinations, I've yet to come across any documentation or even specific stories where known WCK ancestors assassinated Qing officials.

The only specific, historical event we know of is the Hung Gam (Red Turban) Rebellion, where Lee Man-Mao, under Chan Hoi, led the Precious Jade Flower Union (which included the Red Junk performers) onto the streets of Foshan, and eventually to capture the city. They went out in full costume, however, so stealth was probably out of the question.

In retaliation for this, Governor-General Yip Ming-Chan outlawed their performances, burned down their theaters, and slaughtered them.

So while they were definately rebels, they only may have been assassins. 8)

Rgds,

RR