Chin Na in the Mantis

[PJO]

Can anyone recommend a good site for the Chin Na done by the Mantis? The mantis I am studying has a great deal of Chin Na and pressure points. I know a lot of Chin Na is done from the Crane/Eagle claw styles but are there any books or website detailing Chin Na as it relates to the Mantis?

[MightyB]

I've heard that pretty much all northern Kung Fu styles share 72 common chin na techniques and that Eagle Claw is the most advanced because it has 108 techniques. So, any good book or tape on Chin Na should be beneficial.

[mantis108]

The objectives of Chin Na are:

1. Dividing the muscle/tendon
2. Displacing the bone/joint
3. Sealing the breath (choke holds)
4. Cavity Press - pressure ponit strike to disrubing the blood circulation.

There are only so many ways or so many angles the limbs (or the body for that matter) to respond to; therefore, much of the Chin Na techniques, especially the finishing holds, are similar if not the same. ie armbar, wrist lock, etc. Having said that it doesn't mean that there are no style specific "moves" to get "there". One that comes into mind would be Mantis Catches Ciccada (Tanglang Pu Chan) in TJPM. BTW, Tanglang Pu Chan and Gwa Fu Pu Chan is not the same move/application in TJPM.

Mantis108

[Mantis9]

Mantis108 is correct. Chin Na has somewhat a universal application of techniques found throughout all MA. The question I believe you may be asking (I could be wrong:) ) is how the PM exponent approaches Chin Na?

Mantis108 alluded to it when mentioning the movement Mantis Catches Cicada. I find that in the PM continuum, chin na is pervasive within the system. Almost every technique that I can think of directly or indirectly lends itself to a seizing, controlling of joints, muscles, choking, etc.

As for books, Wong Hun Fun has a number of out of print 7*PM books that you can find circulating. Its not specific to chin na, but is good basic material when looking at PM. There is also books by Paul Eng that show Mantis applications. I don't remember if he is a TJPM or Plum Flower PM guy.

Sifu Steve Cottrell has a web site that has links to many other PM sites. Maybe you can find something there. Its [URL=http://www.authentickungfu.com]www.authentickungfu.com

Good luck.

[Oso]

very good point about the limited range of movement to the human bodies apendages. Although you can break a limb in any
direction you loose the control aspect. My thoughts are that, with the limited # of actual control angles on any given joint, a theoretical approach to chin na training works best as the student is taught open ended theory of joint locking vs. 'this technique' or 'this technique'. i.e. "Let's look at the elbow"

This is, of course, looking strictly at the 'misplacing the bone/dividing the tendon' category. Each of the 4 main categories really deserves it own discussion.

Do you consider chokes as the only sealing the breath techniques?

as usual, good reading

Matt

[mantis108]

Hi Oso,

[very good point about the limited range of movement to the human bodies apendages. Although you can break a limb in any
direction you loose the control aspect. My thoughts are that, with the limited # of actual control angles on any given joint, a theoretical approach to chin na training works best as the student is taught open ended theory of joint locking vs. 'this technique' or 'this technique'. i.e. "Let's look at the elbow"]

Thank you. Some great points that you brought up as well, my friend. :) If I hear you correctly, then we should be looking at 108 ways to GET to the finishing hold (what every that might be) rather than 108 finishing holds (submission postures). Quite frankly, you don't need all 108 degrees angles (elbow joint wise) to slap on a good joint lock. I agree with you that somehow many people today are blinded by the number of techniques availabe leading to the goal. This is partly influenced by the traditional training methodology. Most of the time the traditional programs are too busy dealing with transmitting the techniques and making sure they are clean and clear techniques that they lost sight of the techniques are being use by a person to another person. Slight changes in variables (ie. stepping, sinking in elbow, etc.) could easily defeat the technique. A great deal of attention should be placed in observing not only the details but also the respond of the opponent. To this end, flow drills of Chin Na tech. should always be practiced. In a sense this would be the "Mat/sparring time" if we ever wanted to be serious about the Chin Na aspect of training. Honestly, how many schools today assigning at least 15 to 20 mins per class allowing students to lock each other up? (lol...) Partner up and Chin Na is definately the way to go. But then, the instructor would have to have first aid knowledge in case of accident that occurs because someone isn't paid attention to the instructions.

[This is, of course, looking strictly at the 'misplacing the bone/dividing the tendon' category. Each of the 4 main categories really deserves it own discussion.]

I totally agreed with you. I think that is the most constructive suggestion.

[Do you consider chokes as the only sealing the breath techniques?]

Primarily, yes. But then the real threat of a choke isn't all about being out of breath. It is the shock/adrenaline dump affecting the body. Submission due to the freeze up of the body! So the real issue of choking from a MA perspective is more of how do we effectively induce a shock with our choking tech. This also apply to cavity press.

Regards

Mantis108

[PJO]

When doing Chin Na mentioned above do you try to be passive and just take the person down? I ask because in most of the movements I've learned you set up the person up, move in when he has been opened up, then get the Chin Na. Once I have the lock I just continue my motion and let a combination of his weight and the completion of my motion break whatever I have a hold of. Most of the time this is wrist, elbow, and rotator. Very few times do we try some sort of submission lock. If we do it's for a very short time and using either a pressure point or choke. Any comments on this?

[Mantis9]

Often, in training application, my sifu has always assumed resistance to chin na. I think that is prevalent is mantis forms, where each successive technique is a continuation after the prior technique has been thwarted. So, we drill techniques by approaching with a strike intended or feined intention, create a bridge by clinging, then attempting the option of chin na. If the opponent can resist the attempt, then the mantis practioners still has the time advantage to strike again and possibly attempt another chin na option.

When we do get to a complete lock, whether through drilling, flow drills, or sparring, it sounds like we follow the same philosophy as you: constant motion to prevent your opponent leverage to counter or free himself from the lock and letting gravity do the rest.

Most of the time, like you, it seems that the manipulation of the arm is where the action takes place.

I would be very interested to hear mantis108 take on it. And Oso.

bye

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by mantis108
Hi Oso,

I agree with you that somehow many people today are blinded by the number of techniques availabe leading to the goal. This is partly influenced by the traditional training methodology. Most of the time the traditional programs are too busy dealing with transmitting the techniques and making sure they are clean and clear techniques that they lost sight of the techniques are being use by a person to another person. Slight changes in variables (ie. stepping, sinking in elbow, etc.) could easily defeat the technique. A great deal of attention should be placed in observing not only the details but also the respond of the opponent. To this end, flow drills of Chin Na tech. should always be practiced. In a sense this would be the "Mat/sparring time" if we ever wanted to be serious about the Chin Na aspect of training. Honestly, how many schools today assigning at least 15 to 20 mins per class allowing students to lock each other up? (lol...) Partner up and Chin Na is definately the way to go. But then, the instructor would have to have first aid knowledge in case of accident that occurs because someone isn't paid attention to the instructions.

I would say that not only practicioners should practice flow drill, it should also deal with other throwing aspects as well when practicing. As you have already know, there can be alot of cases that you find the slight changes that will offset the lock, it can all be explained in throwing tech. While you are using your locking tech, you need to make your opponent to use arm in a twisted-disadvantage way to against your body weight and momentum, you will need throwing techniques to master the body postioning and momentum controls. If one does not master that, he/she will risking a conter lock or throw when try to applying locking techniques.



[This is, of course, looking strictly at the 'misplacing the bone/dividing the tendon' category. Each of the 4 main categories really deserves it own discussion.]


Is that the "fen jin tsou gu fa?" you are talking about?

[PaulLin]

I would say that to get into the door and take the attaching and control is the most important part in na. The most ideal situation is in passive, in which you wait you opponent to attack, make the attack miss and attach to the lock part, while your opponent are taking care of his own mis-attack, you do your lock. If you try to catch your opponent on your own while he is free to do things, you better pray that your opponent don't know any conter locks.

For every open door in striking, there is a way to throw, and for every chance of throwing, there is a way to na. All 3 techniques are related and suppoted, can also be inter changible in application.

You must not arm wrestling with your opponent, that is where you can be conter-locked. you must first dislink the lock part away from the opponent's body support, attach your body weight and momentum to it, then you can deal with the dis-anlge and fold of tendon and bone. Once the tendon is correctly lock into place, you don't have to worrie about other body parts that may attack you, you can control the whole body tendon since form wrest to ankel, the tendon is all linked as one. The ability of being soft and hard are a plus.

[mantis108]

Hi PJO,

"When doing Chin Na mentioned above do you try to be passive and just take the person down?"I ask because in most of the movements I've learned you set up the person up, move in when he has been opened up, then get the Chin Na. Once I have the lock I just continue my motion and let a combination of his weight and the completion of my motion break whatever I have a hold of. Most of the time this is wrist, elbow, and rotator. Very few times do we try some sort of submission lock. If we do it's for a very short time and using either a pressure point or choke. Any comments on this?"

Now we getting into an very interesting area about Chin Na in Mantis which is strategy. You would be applying your China Na to fullfill the above defination by your description. That is to said your goal (of what is taught to you) is to mime. That is perfectly fine. If we divide combat into 3 acts (as in a play), then we might ask ourselves the question: to mime or not to mime? Why should we bother to ask this question? The reason is simple because it is the difference between generic Chin Na moves and stylized (mantis wise) Chin Na moves. Mantis offers aesthetically pleasing Chin Na techniques. That is the reason why we want to learn the art but not other arts. Having said that I must also remind everyone that Mantis Chin Na follows the same principles found in the generic Chin Na techs as well. Personally, I find that the ground is a Mantis stylist's best friend. So takedown with Chin Na is great. We have lots of that in TJPM. While miming someone in a fight would be of prime interest to many fighter, it is prudent for a Mantis stylist, especially those who are involved in law enforcement and security line of work, to really nail the submission holds down (on the ground) so that a capture with minimal or reasonable injuries inflicted to the subject. Submission on the ground is a highly superior and secured disposition for arresting exponent. So a good and short submission hold would be alright for putting a hand cuff or rope on while waiting for back up to process the arrest. Nowadays, we often look at Mantis Kung Fu from a civilian perspective and forget the functional career side of Mantis Chin Na. If you are already practicing them, then you are fine.

Hi Manits9,

"Often, in training application, my sifu has always assumed resistance to chin na. I think that is prevalent is mantis forms, where each successive technique is a continuation after the prior technique has been thwarted. So, we drill techniques by approaching with a strike intended or feined intention, create a bridge by clinging, then attempting the option of chin na. If the opponent can resist the attempt, then the mantis practioners still has the time advantage to strike again and possibly attempt another chin na option. "

I mostly agree with this statement but then China Na can be proactive rather than reactive all the time. It really is depending on the situation. Personally, I find Mantis China Na appears to be passive because of the fact that we don't want to use strength against strength. In other words we are not brutish. Many of the pass masters had large physiques, yet they taught and emphasized on beautiful and agile techniques. That's something we should ponder on more often. :) IMHO it is safe to say that in the pass PM masters eyes, PM is high art not just skill to suit the ego.

"When we do get to a complete lock, whether through drilling, flow drills, or sparring, it sounds like we follow the same philosophy as you: constant motion to prevent your opponent leverage to counter or free himself from the lock and letting gravity do the rest."

Mantis is Mantis. We are all in one large family.

"Most of the time, like you, it seems that the manipulation of the arm is where the action takes place."

I might add that if a stand up submission is the goal then leg trapping is very important in Chin Na. If a ground submission is going to take place, then the arms, legs and choke holds should be look at as well.

Regards

Mantis108

[Mantis9]

It's good to hear from you. I always enjoy your input. I'm a little confused, though. I didn't mean to imply that Chin Na to me is reactive. Let me try again.

In my past statement, 'we drill techniques by approaching with a strike intended or feined intention, create a bridge by clinging, then attempting the option of chin na,' I was trying to illustrate the use of chin na in a very active sense.(It feels weird to quote myself.) Sensitive control of the opponent's limbs, I think we would all agree is the most effective way to attain said lock. So, with chin na in mind, the strike or feint is meant to draw attention away from the practioners really objective. The bridging effects better sensitivity, the strike or feint effects a reaction, so the chin na comes as an unexpected surprise, therefore being resisted less.

That's, of course, only if you intend to seize your opponent. Sometimes, I do the opposite. Use the chin na to effect a strike.:D I'm so sneeky;) .

Anyway, out muscling an opponent is hard. I, myself, am on the larger side and find it terribly difficult to muscle my smaller brothers. So, why would I want to strain against someone my size.

Of course, I could have completely misinterpreted your statement about my statement, so please excuse this statement, if it doesn't follow the other two statements.

So, here's my question:

How would others of you effect a proactive approach to Chin Na?

Have a good day.

[Oso]

...to get them to play that game with you. I'm fairly large, I guess
(215) and one of my favorite ploys is to try and get the other guy
to want to grab me. From there I let him try his thing on me and
resist, either w/ strength or fluidity*, and then counter him. I
think I might be classified as a counter-fighter most of the time
anyway so I kinda play a defensive game most of the time
anyway and wait for the other person to get frustrated enough
to commit.



* The way I see it, you can resist by resisting, or by not resisting
If you resist w/ strength then they react in one way and if you
resist by being somewhat passive and flowing part of the way
in to the lock they are attempting you can usually find a dead
space as you "beat them around the circle" and then either
dissolve out of the lock before they realize they don't really
have it or have a counter set up just as they set their energy
into the lock they are attempting and then utilize that energy
to fuel your counter, whethe it be a lock or strike.

Did that make sense. It's late and I'm tired. I couldn't get onto
the forum for the last 24 hours so I will have to play catch up on
this thread...tomorrow.

great stuff everyone...man I love chin na and ground fighting
Oso=high school wrestler>>hung gar>>PM

[PaulLin]

>The way I see it, you can resist by resisting, or by not resisting <

I think if you can resist and counter the lock, one of the 2 things is happening--1. you have notice the lock your opponent is going to do before it was set up. 2. your opponent is not very clear of what the locking should be focusing on. Usually a normal lock should be done as Mantis 9 said, surprisingly and too late to respond. Also a good lock technique should be made to taking care of resisting situation, as more resist, more injured. Usually a small move can counter a big move in na. Some time it can counter by throwing moves too.

not resisting is more likely the better way to deal with a good chin-na practioner. But you must be able to off set his body weight/momentum supports or ideal angle of the grab(the empty spaces). If your opponent has better foundation then you, then you have much smaller chance of off set him/her.

Usually a chin na technique was used in controlling opponent rather than breaking limps. Only if it was in a multi-opponents fight that you should be using it to break limps(moral wise). A na is also a good way of making friends without loose face of the others, that you applied to a degree your opponent know he/she cannot escape, but let it go as no one wins. But that may take a risk if the opponent is sneaky and might throw in a durty attack as you let go.

[Oso]

I think what I was trying to say about resisting was that I use it as an initial step to not resisting.

The lock starts to set in
you feel it
you resist a bit
he feels that and reacts by increasing his power
you stop resisting and counter using his increased application of
power

a ploy/tactic in general.

Yes, I agree that if you resist a lock it will generaly be bad news
for you, especially at the end of the lock. I do think that at
different moments of a technique it is appropriate to resist and
at others, to flow with it.

I think almost all locks are circles. If you can see the circle of the
lock you can jump ahead of the opponent on the circle and
dissolve out of it that way, I will resist a little bit early in the
movement to either by myself a little time to set this up or to
steal some of the energy from the opponent as he is forced to
apply more energy into his technique, and use that energy
to fuel my defensive move.

Of course, this relies on early detection of the technique and if
he is good enough to pick up on your intent by resisting then he
flows back the other way and you have to switch.

ok, still not sure if I made sense, not enough sleep !

thanks, PaulLin, for the good counter :)

[PJO]

In general I try to get the opponent to resist as little as possible by striking and shifting, taking him off balance, maybe doing a knee lock as I move in, getting a hold of him. The whole time I shift and keep the pressure so that he never has a chance to resist. By the time he has recovered enough to resist it's too late. I agree that on a one on one basis it is better to get a submission hold and maybe say " are you done?" but in multiple attacker situations just break through, take him down to the ground, and be set for the next guy. Also many of the same movements, locks, and take downs apply for an attacker who is kicking. These are especially nasty. Take the ankle, knee, and hip. Mantis108 I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by "mime" could you please clearify? Thanks for the posts!

[mantis108]

First off, I like the momentum of this thread. :)

Mantis9,

My post wasn't mean to critique your statements. I apologize for not being clear on what my intention was. I realize those of you who participated in this thread so far are experienced Mantis stylists and do have soild understanding of how Chin Na comes into to play. I was reaffirming that Chin Na need not to be passive. That is to say we need not to have elaborate "set up" shots piror to using Chin Na. I do know that many of you understand this well but at the same time we will want others who might be looking into Chin Na not get the impression that Mantis players can only use China Na under a set of somewhat specific circumstances. One example of such would be the Sui Chin Si (the most basic wrist lock). That one doesn't need elaborate set up and can be done as soon as there is contact. In certain way, that's like half of a Guo Lu Tsai. Anyway, I enjoy your input very much. Thanks for the clarification. :)

Paul,

Always good stuff coming from you.

PJO,

To mime is to take the opponent out either knock his unconcious or even... you figure that part out. ;) Submission is less brutal.

BTW, for those who have not visited the TJPM forum therefore not have seen TJPM applications, here a link. I think will give some ideas of what Chin Na is like in TJPM perhaps it might help the discussion.

TJPM Sau Fa w/ Chin Na (http://216.126.109.138/mantis/images/TCPM1.htm)

Regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Forgot to mention that all the moves in the link have takedown moves with it. I believe that's what Paul was pointing out. Anyway enjoy.

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Oso
I think what I was trying to say about resisting was that I use it as an initial step to not resisting.

The lock starts to set in
you feel it
you resist a bit
he feels that and reacts by increasing his power
you stop resisting and counter using his increased application of
power

a ploy/tactic in general.


One little thing about your opponent's reaction is different than what I know of what should be done. If I put that in, it will be like this:

The lock starts to set in

Mr. A feel it

Mr. A resist a bit

If Mr. B felt the resistance are troubling his move, he should be either adjust body angle or grib, not increasing force. If Mr. B can't come up with better angle and grib that will make it work right the way, he should change to a "B" plan follow up na, rather than fighting through the original plan of na with force. Usually should choose a follow up na that goes with Mr. A's resisting force direction.

If Mr. A resisted too much or not have enough level with MR. B's foundation, Mr. A will lost. If Mr. A's resistance is pure fake and Mr. B cannot detected that and choose to follow up with Mr. A's fake resisting force, Mr. A has a chance to counter or get away.

The basic idea of practicing Na is that don't put more forces to make it work. What is needed is more control. As in angle of body weight and momentum, the grib locations, and distances. In practice, one must find ways in Na, not train strength in Na(you train that in foundation drill). If in practice, one train correctly, then in real application, the skill will serve well.

Any ways, that was a very nice way of yours to put forth the issue by giving the example(I borrow that form you here). I think you known about what I have just said.

[Oso]

PaulLIn

I think I'm only talking about the first phase or step of the game.
You have gone on to beautifully discribe many of the little
nuances of an encounter (an a good metaphor for life:D but
that goes w/o saying I guess)

<<PaulLin>>

Mr. A feel it

Mr. A resist a bit

If Mr. B felt the resistance are troubling his move, he should be either adjust body angle or grib, not increasing force. If Mr. B can't come up with better angle and grib that will make it work right the way, he should change to a "B" plan follow up na, rather than fighting through the original plan of na with force. Usually should choose a follow up na that goes with Mr. A's resisting force direction.

<<>>

I agree, I think the only way to really show this would be to
draw a flow chart of sorts

{A} Initiates Lock >>> {B} Counters by resisting>>>>>>>>>>
v v
v>>{B} Counters by flowing w/ lock to v
dissolve out of lock v
v
v<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
v v
v v
{A} Counters the counter by flowing into a different lock v
v
v<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
v
v
{A} Counters the counter by increasing power level and blowing
through the defense of {B}

(THAT was really difficult:eek: )

I guess the last is where we differ a bit. I think there will be times
when an increase in the power used in a lock will get the job done
Not every time, probably not most times but sometimes
dependant upon comparative skill level and size/strength.

It is all in the flow, like water I think...sometimes it's like a gentle
mountain stream and sometimes like a flood stage river.

ok, that was cheesy :D but I think still true

************
I just previewed this post and the 'flow chart' isn't going to
post like I tried to type it, hopefully you will see what I'm
trying to say. Maybe I'll try one this weekend and could email
it to you if you wanted it.

Matt

[PaulLin]

Well, I think put our words here together, we can publish a Practical ChinNa Practioner's Book, it will be so informative.

One more add. There is a different requirements as in TaiChi's Na and Mantis' Na. In TaiChi, Na should be done with you opponent feel nothing to refer to but emptiness. So that your opponent cannot know your force direction and weight. By doing that , one cannot really use your force to make his na work and you have a better chance to use his force.(As advanced practioners known, one must react upon feelings and will be too late to react upon looking or thinking) In Mantis, that is not emphasised. Even though the sticky parts in Mantis is kind of similar to it, but it didn't require to the empty out of your opponent's sensibility. That one takes a very long internal practice to be able to relax into that level during the applying.

Well, I am slipping out of the mantis field, better stop now.:D

PS.
mantis108, nice link here you have.:)

[Oso]

This is just my opinion (giving my limited experience w/ tai chi
and only moderate experience w/ mantis) But, I would think
that tai chi would have na that focuses on the larger joints
and mantis would have a greater depth of range into the
smaller circle chin na. I've just not ever seen a lot of small
circle stuff in tai chi, the tai chi na I have done seemed to be
waist, knee, elbow and shoulder, oh and neck. I see some
pretty nasty neck breaks in tai chi. (sorry, the neanderthal coming
out in me.)

please correct any misunderstanding I may have,

Matt

[PaulLin]

This is out side of mantis na issue.

Interal like TaiChi develop form inside out, mantis is external, developed form out side in. So when they begin to focus on the parts of Na is form different sides. TaiChi will go for the whole body move, result mostly in bigger joint na. Later when it move to smaller joint, it will required to keep the whole body as you did in the large joint na. That is better in long term practicing.

External focus on results, not internal growth as much as in compareson to internal. So they focus on smaller joint na. since you concentrait forces on smaller joint, the results are faster and effective. Usually a small joint na can counter or wore off a big joint na. But it didn't focus on the unity of your own body as internal has. So once you achieved in small joint, when you move to larger joint, there will be needed of new foundational input.

As what you have, start form both ends of na, it should be much faster in progress since you have knowledge form both sides.

[Mantis9]

:) Its all good. As martial arts, we're a tactile and visual group. (At least I am.) So, if I don't quit get your gist or someone elses, its probably due to my unliterary nature, not the post. Its good to clarify.

PaulLin and Oso and the rest of the Gang.

Chin Na. One of our first articles in Mantis Monthly Magazine. (Title optional);)

[Mantis9]

:) Its all good. As martial arts, we're a tactile and visual group. (At least I am.) So, if I don't quit get your gist or someone elses, its probably due to my unliterary nature, not the post. Its good to clarify.

PaulLin and Oso

Chin Na. One of our first articles in Mantis Monthly Magazine. (Title optional);)

[PaulLin]

Don't know when the magazine will be on the move, so slow. But I am sure with all of us here, we can make a top magazine that breaks the top.:)