Pole form - Should it be practiced?

[red5angel]

What I have been getting from most people about the pole form is that it has basically been reduced to an excersise to strengthen the hands? Is there anything else we can get out of the form?

[reneritchie]

Been reduced to what?! Did I miss a series of posts? Not only does the pole train the body, the application of long single weapon, and other factors, its just a lot of good fun as well. 8)

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

I dont think that you are reading the relevant posts carefully.
Dave asked me some questions on the pole and I actually answered him in the thread you now want closed.
In any case time is better spent mastering the earlier forms before handling weapons...otherwise it can delay the development and understanding of the appropriate weapons skills.

[red5angel]

RR - what would you say those other factors are?

Yuanfen - Getting rid of the thread is only my opinion, not fact, and who says we cant learna thing or two from mindless drivel. As for the subject at hand, no pun intended, I would tend to agree with you on waiting on the pole, although your knowledge goes much deeper then mine at the moment, it just seems right. The impression I have got from most people and thier post, which as of late tend to be shallow on explanation, is that teh pole does not serve much purpose at this point and I am trying to understand if it doesnt, why practice it, if it does, what would people believe those to be?

[Spark]

I'm not going to recount the history of WC here, but I'm sure if you look around the board, you'll find a brief history of WC and see why the pole form is a part of the system.

If the pole form didn't serve a purpose, i'm sure it wouldn't be in the system.

I have a feeling the people who would tell you the pole form isn't important would probably say the same thing about Bui Jee.

[red5angel]

Spark, I am familiar with the history, several anyway. I know why it was put there. What I am asking is, from a practical point of view does it still teach us something? Is it there in the off chance I might be practicing when I am attacked and have my spear handy?
Is it just to strengthen my arms? Do we just practice it out of tradition?

[Lindley57]

The value of the weapons of Wing Chun are only seen by those who achieve that level. Meaning that you might have the same opinion of Chi Sao having never played it.
The weapons are understood by a dedicated few and mastered by even less. It would not seem practical that we would walk down the street carrying our 8 or 9 foot pole to protect us against an attacker. However, do not doubt that one could become a skilled pole handler. And, if utilized in a practical combat situation, you would not want to be the person at the other end of the pole thrusted by someone of skill. The pole also gives one extreme punching power, much like a shotgun, as well as an understanding of another centerline - that created along your shoulder. Have you ever seen Chi Kwan (pole vs pole)?
Everything in Wing Chun is available for individual interpretation and adaptation.

Good luck in your Kung Fu....

[reneritchie]

You can use any fairly long, fairly rigid instrument that might be available - pool cue, garden tool, construction material, etc. It also does more than strengthen your arms. It builds up your whole body, and your whole-body.

BTW- Everything in WCK besides the vertical thrusting punch is useless - *IF* you can do a perfectly timed, perfectly powered, perfectly pathed vertical thrusting punch each and every time, in each and every situation. If you lack that level of constant perfection, you might need a few other things, including the contents of Biu Jee and the training of the Six-and-a-half Point Pole along the way to developing that constant perfection. ;)

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Lindley57 - what you say sounds reasonable. I would assume the pole form would not be easy to interpret unless you hae recieved that training and are at a level to understand it fully, that is why I put it out there. Thanks for the reply.

[fa_jing]

My instructor says the principles of the pole can be applied to the staff or a shorter stick. The only thing is, you can't twirl the pole. It is good for strength training, and for those without exposure to other chinese MA it serves as an intro to some different stances. Also, consider that many styles train weapons that are no longer in use, or your not likely to have access to, like the Kwan Dao, double hook swords, etc. I have to say, I haven't learned the form yet, but I have found the basic training we do with the pole to be, in short, fun.

-FJ

[anerlich]

I would argue that ultimately practise with the pole must have direct application to combat. If it were only some quaint form of resistance training to augment one's unarmed combat abilities, I would argue that modern sport science could come up with something better.

IMHO the value of the WC weapons is that their techniques can be applied to objects you might find lying around in a defense situation, e.g., in the case of the pole as Rene said, brooms, rakes, pool cues, walking sticks, garden stakes. It is arguable that the pole is more advantageous to practice for defense than the swords, since you only need one, not two, and a sharp edge and hook is not required. Of course, sword techs can be modified to use only one hand and with blunt instruments.

The pole is different to other parts of WC in that it requires the use of a single weapon, rather than having two hands/swords that can be used independently. The weight of the traditional pole also requires much more attention to correct leverage and bodily alignment than does the open hand and swords (not saying that those attributes aren't used or developed or required by open hand or sword practice, rather that it's much more difficult to "cheat" with the pole than it is with lighter weapons).

I think that one needs a level of basic facility with WC principles and their application before weapons training is introduced, but I do not agree that a high level of skill is needed or desirable.

If our goal is to teach people effective self-defence quickly, then we need to introduce the use of incidental weapons as soon as possible. If effective use of WC weapons requires ten years plus of training before a student can begin to use them effectively, then I would argue that it fails in what is often touted as its primary purpose, i.e. to teach people effective self defence in as short a time as possible. I'd be advising people to learn Philipino systems and firearms instead.

My organisation normally encourages people to start training with weapons after 12-18 months of training.

[dezhen2001]

what if that's not what your goal is?

david

[anerlich]

what if that's not what your goal is?
Well, d'oh , then I guess you might approach things differently.

Do you have a different goal? An opinion as to when the weapon should be taught in accordance with it? Anything of substance to add to the thread?

[dezhen2001]

well, i'm nowhere near the weapons training yet, but have played the pole a little. Heres my thoughts.

Think if you can issue power at the end of the 8 foot (or whatever size) pole. Using Ging... what would that mean for your empty hand skills? It would mean that they are very clear, which is good. It helps develop your stance like doing SLT, as well as other things.
Also there is Chi Gwun (sticky pole) exercises, but like i said i dunno much about them (only on SLT right now). I'm sure they help develop your sensitivity and footwork a lot as well.

Why does using the 8 foot pole have to be applicable to combat? I'm sure the principles of it are, but theres a lot more to learn from it than the movements and applicaitons i think... Also it's part of the history, so to complete the system u should study it.

just my random thoughts,
david

[Sabu]

Originally posted by red5angel
What I have been getting from most people about the pole form is that it has basically been reduced to an excersise to strengthen the hands? Is there anything else we can get out of the form? Reduced????? Red5angel, kind sir, may I ask, have you learned the pole form?

[mun hung]

What's with people saying "the pole is fun?" What's so "fun" about it?

It's no fun at all. Polework is grueling hard work. In fact, it could easily be considered the most difficult, and painful part of Wing Chun training. But the rewards are great, which of course - justifies the torture.

[Cashier Graham]

I think the pole is most useful for developing power and especially relaxed power just as wearing weights on the chi kung bit of SLT. And your right it is torture but worth doing. And even if we never use a pole in a fight then ok for you it's just power training but it's a very suitable form of power training for wing chun because of the use of ging energy in the techs. Don't knock power training it's good for you.

[red5angel]

Sabu, not yet.

so far it has been an interesting discussion. For myself, well, I dont know, as I have replied to Sabu, I have not yet begun to train in the pole, so am not sure from experience what it has to offer me. I just keep getting the impression most people consider it more excersise then anything else.
so far input has been interesting.....and varied.

[dezhen2001]

Red5> i think there are many reasons why you should trian the pole. But like yourself, i'm only on SLT right now, and have enough trouble doing that :D

But there has to be a good reason it's there. I'm sure it can teach you so much more than just combat...

david

[red5angel]

Dezhen - you may be right. ultimately until I get there I will not know, but it is interesting to see the ideas others have.

[reneritchie]

MH - Yeah, dude, it's fun! At least for me. Sure it hurts like hell, both in solo and partner training, but when you do it outside, wind in your hair, get a good power transfer going... I don't know. Maybe just like stuff. I've always loved dummy, pole, and knife, just cause its got a little something to give you feedback as you work.

r5a - You can train with the pole before you learn the pole set, same as you can train on the dummy before you learn the dummy set. I'd stick to the most basic of drills, however (hold the pole at the base with both hands, elbows in, and twist up and then down, keeping the pole level - if that's too difficult, start with something smaller/lighter and work your way up).

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

What is the name of the pole. If I were to look at buying one, any suggestions?

[reneritchie]

The method (faat) is called six-and-a-half point pole (luk dim boon gwun). The pole itself is called a single-ended pole (dan tao gwun) or rat-tail pole (shui mei gwun).

Not sure where the best place is, but find someplace close because shipping can be expensive otherwise!

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Thanks RR, you wouldnt happen to know the measurements offhand would you?

[fa_jing]

Well, training the pole for me has been fun, and only moderately tiring, so, I guess we're not doing it right. Excuse me for focusing on other methods of strength training. Didn't realize it all had to come through the pole or else I'm not in the Wing Chun club.

I have about three years of Wing Chun training. It probably would take some really grueling training with the pole to be able to use it as it was intended - I admit. Still, what we do (not much) has worked for me for where I'm at. We have only practiced the basic movements, and some circleing pole drills. Mostly as a warm down after some sparring or hitting the air shield. And the thing is heavy.

-FJ

[anerlich]

It's no fun at all. Polework is grueling hard work.

Forms and drills can be tough and boring.

But every now and then we go at it with long pieces of ducting with plenty of padding around the ends. Get suited up with cricket helmet, body jacket, cup, forearm and shin pads, and cricket gloves. You have to be careful with straight thrusts with the point of the pole as this could still cause injury, but ....

It's fun.


I'm sure it can teach you so much more than just combat...

If you're sure, then tell us exactly what. And if "just" combat is not the backbone of Wing Chun, then what is? Is it about fighting or just a more sophisticated form of aerobics and strength training?

[dezhen2001]

Hi Anerlich :) wow - read a lot in to my post there didn't ya... like i said i'm not at the pole level yet, only on SLT... I didn't imply that it was "just" combat, as you put it, but the "just" meant many other things besides combat. Not belittling the combat part at all.

What can the pole possibly teach you? hmmm... posture, health, how to control your body, ging... I'm sure lots of things besides just fighting applicaiton. Wing chun is a martial art, so of course combat training. But theres also more to it than that imho,

david

[gnugear]

Has anyone compared the WC pole form to the use of the Bo in Okinawan arts?

I knew a couple of Bo forms when I used to study Goju Ryu, and a lot of the stuff looks familiar in terms of stance and weight distribution. The Okinawan staff forms were very direct as well. Nothing like the flashy Wushu stuff you see in competitions.

FWIW, I don't know the pole form yet.

[reneritchie]

I only played around with a tiny bit of Bo stuff as part of Kobudo in Karate. But, looking back, it seems closer to the Chinese Chan Mei Gwun (Eyebrow Height Staff), which is Seung Tao Gwun (Double Sided Pole) in application and flavor. Most WCK branches don't use this method.

Rgds,

RR

[mun hung]

RR - "but when you do it outside, wind in your hair, get a good power transfer going...I don't know".

Sounds like "alot of things" that are enjoyable "outdoors". :D

Nevertheless - I see what your saying.

I'm quite familiar with the drill you mentioned. Ever try it with 10 foot Oak? Does incredible things to your forearms.

Pole training = pain. Pain all over. Pain when you wake up. Pain all day. Pain when you go to sleep. Still my definition.

R5A - as far as buying a good pole? Do yourself a favor and make one yourself. Go to you local lumberyard and buy a 10 foot length of either Oak or whatever hardwood that is available. A little flex is my preference and of course - as straight as possible. As far as cutting goes - I found a bannister place that can 'turn it", and I've also heard of sailboat places that make masts that could possibly help. The 8 foot poles I've seen around at local MA supply houses are cr@p and will break and don't weigh enough for training. Unless of course, you're just into doing forms and "sticky stick". :(

All of this info is really not as important as the right SiFu who can teach you the pole, and who has actually trained in it himself.

Good luck in your journey.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by mun hung
Pole training = pain. Pain all over. Pain when you wake up. Pain all day. Pain when you go to sleep. Still my definition. So much pain? Perhaps your method requires some reshaping... Or re-examining the basics. For it is the basics that prepare your body for the weapons, so that pain is minimized.

Respect the temple.

[yuanfen]

I dont think that there should be "pain" in working with the pole.
But then I cant see what kind of pole work..mun hung is doing.
I can understand- stamina issues---if one hasnt built up pole usage. But pain is a subjective term. So who knows.
Wu wei-is best imo.

[TenTigers]

do heart thrusts untill your hands bleed. Practice snap downs untill you can no longer hold the pole. Double snap-down/up working both arms till failure, Circle down and back until the pole drops. There. Does that hurt a little?Good. So what have you been referring to when you speak of training? btw, I know Mun Hung, his Sifu and training bros. You haven't trained till you played with him and Simeon (6'4" solid tree trunks for arms) and bled through your pores! Old school rulz! ps I have great memories of doing sam-sing da with Sifu Lee-and I thought the trees in my backyard were hard! gotta love it! (sniff-I miss youse guyz)

[Fresh]

Originally posted by TenTigers
do heart thrusts untill your hands bleed. Practice snap downs untill you can no longer hold the pole. Double snap-down/up working both arms till failure, Circle down and back until the pole drops. There. Does that hurt a little?Good. So what have you been referring to when you speak of training? btw, I know Mun Hung, his Sifu and training bros. You haven't trained till you played with him and Simeon (6'4" solid tree trunks for arms) and bled through your pores! Old school rulz! ps I have great memories of doing sam-sing da with Sifu Lee-and I thought the trees in my backyard were hard! gotta love it! (sniff-I miss youse guyz)

I thought Wing Chun was for smaller weaker people. A woman's art, with Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun and all that legend. How does training like you described fit with that? Was the pole added in to cover the more manly aspects? Confusing. :confused:

[yuanfen]

The pole was added to wing chun after the development of the hand forms. When the hands and stances are properly developed
the pole and knives can help enhance the wing chun hand motions as well as teach the use of long and short weapons.
Too early pole work can end up with overcomepnsation with strength in the use of weapons. Thats the route of more and
often
unnecessary muscle usage, hand bleeding and the things mun hung refers too. he is entitled to his way but that is not the only way- by far. My impression is that ten tigers does not primarily stick to wing chun training.

[Phil Redmond]

The Marines trained us to hold our rifles on our wrists with arms extended. I never knew why until after Boot Camp. Then I watched my Chinese friends that studied Juk Lum Tong Long (Bamboo Forest Praying Mantis) in NY Chinatown roll iron bars with weights on the ends back and forth on their forearms. There was a docummentary on Discovery Channel that showed Okinawan Goju Ryu black belts doing the same exercise. One of the reasons the WC pole form is important is to train, 'Long Bridge Strength'. The fully extended arm has less power that a bent arm. Your arm loses strength at full extension. Many martial arts advocate having 'Long Bridge Strength'. There are different ways to aquire this ability. As seen by the different methodologies. WC uses the pole. If you can hold an 8, 10, 12 foot pole at full extension without waivering you will begin to develop 'long bridge strength'. You would not normally fight with a pole this long as it would be too cumbersome and slow. You also develop 'ging lihk', (explosive energy) with the pole.

[Sabu]

Nobody knows "old school" til you train against my elephant. See! It is very easy to throw those words around just like I have. Who is to say what "old school" is? Is it a reference to the old methods of training? How does one know? Or simply a reference that suggests training hard? If it is "old school", does that make it correct training? Does "old school" training require shin pads?

[yuanfen]

The bamboo forrest folks, the marines, the goju ryu folks all have their training for their purposes and for their motions. But their motions are different from wing chun motions. Neither those methods or bleeding hands and intensive pain are necessary for
wing chun long bridge or short bridge development IMO..The devil is again in the details... how the pole is held and balanced by the stance, how the body structure moves and turns and how the pole becomes one with the body. The pole came from southern shaolin but Leung jan and Yip man adapted its usage for wing chun specific purposes.

[TenTigers]

I think guys like Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, and Benny Meng have disproved the Yim Wing Chun little girl myth-but...if she was a girl, I'll bet she was built like a polish weightlifter! I picture Bev Francis in her beefiest prime (hey-prime beef!haha)in a cheong sam.

[yuanfen]

Instructive thing about elephants- they seem to have long trunk power and short tusk and stomping power. With their trunks they can lift people on the top...pick up huge logs from the bottom...uproot trees--pick up and control things solid and liquid...
all without muscle hardening training. Instructive on relaxed power, balance and control. Their biggest enemy-the gun.

[mun hung]

Sabu - now what kind of Wing Chun "basics" can you suggest as a preparation for the pole? And what kind of pole do you use?

yuanfen - "I don't think that there should be "pain" in working with the pole. But then again I can't see what pole work..mun hung is doing." - exactly! .....so why say something just for the sake of saying something. BTW - what kind of pole do you train with? Is it the same one used in your pictures on your website?

It is my opinion that lots of people have this lax way of training, which of course reflects on their pole training as well. Hardwork, sweat and serious training (God forbid) turns many people off. It's much easier to discuss training than training itself. In fact my hands have never bled from the pole, (thick calluses help) but I must say that my body aches just looking at the pole sometimes. Pole training puts your whole body to the test. If you don't know what I mean - well, you'll probably never find out either. Nothing comes easy. Show me a person who says pole work is easy fun, and I'll show you a person who can't fight with one.

And elephants don't need to fight with poles, or develop muscles to use them.....just us stupid violent humans. Poor analogy.

Phil - Bravo!

Ten Tigers - Bev in her prime wearing a cheong saam? Scarey. She could probably keep up in a pole workout a lot better than some of the men who talk about it.

Nuff said. No use debating. I'd much rather fight instead.

[Fresh]

Originally posted by yuanfen
...
all without muscle hardening training. Instructive on relaxed power, balance and control.

Sounds more like what I thought. Maybe I didn't understand Tiger right which sounded more like bull work. Seems like you would have to work up to pole training to do it without being a bull. A lot of people I know are too small to be good bulls.

[yuanfen]

Fresh- building up rather than being bullish with weapons is the right way to go- so that you can control whatever you are using.
The pole should not control you- you control the pole. Small folks can do amazing things with heavier objects if they build up to it.
If the ygkym, the chum kiu tirns and the stepping are not properly
mastered- compensating with strength will slow down the development of actual wing chun skills. Other styles use the pole
like hung gar with hung gar structure. Depends on what style you wish to learn. My choice has always been wing chun. Yip Man wasa small man- but he wasa master of the pole. In his younger pictures he looked tougher naturally- but he was still a small man...
he was not like "Simeon"(?)... not 6'4" etc. Lok Yiu is a small man.
Tsui tsong Tin is a thin man. Won Shon Leung was not a big man.

Mun Hung_ I stated that i dont know what kind of pole work you do-because it is a fact. On a list one generally comments on what is said. Apples and oranges are mixed up in your statement. By no means was I suggesting leisurely training with the pole-thats a straw man argument. I understand sweating- we do it a lot in Arizona. But sweat is not always associated with pain.Some very pleasurable things can be sweaty. Mastering the pole can be a very pleasurable journey. You ask what kind of pole I use?/ many kinds depending on what I want to work on...
on a given day...8 footers, 7 footers, 6 footers, some made of teak or other hardwood...some made of waxwood.

Ten Tigers- in your comments elsewhere you seem to be basically more into hung gar. One doesnt have to be 6"4' and have arms like tree trunks to do wc. As to "history" and Yim Wing chun--- many stories- you take your pick--- wait long enough - anew one will come along.

Both mun hung's and ten tigers' poss are laced with what is generally more NYC macho-there are other tempos in other parts of the world and talk is not correlated one way or the other with
doing wing chun. I just do wing chun with sweat and pleasure.
No calluses, bleeding, or pads.

[mun hung]

Really.....!

Waxwood??? I figured you trained light, but waxwood? That's exactly the reason why you don't know what I'm talking about. You probably would'nt do so well with the pole I train with. In fact - I would bet on it. No calluses you say? That does'nt surprise me at all.

Regarding "NYC macho" - I'd prefer that over "Arizona lax". Come by and visit.....we'll compare!

Regarding pads - we fight in our school - not talk about it. Without some sort of protection, depending on what we're doing - you would'nt last a minute. Let me kick you in the shin once, and then "you" tell me whether pads are a good idea or not. I guarantee you'll be crawling over for a pair (or two?). Talk is cheap.

In regards to blood - seen my share of it. More outside the school. Occasional black eyes, split lip, bruises, and fractures come with the territory. Maybe not your territory.

Fresh - who's talking about being a bull during pole training??? Not I.
BTW - some of the smallest people make the finest bulls! All you need is heart.

Really not trying to start a fight - just presenting my beliefs.

All in all - it was fine chattin with yall. :)

[yuanfen]

Waxwood??? I figured you trained light, but waxwood? That's exactly the reason why you don't know what I'm talking about.

((Figured wrong.Dont read carefully do you. Or-Selective. Different hardwoods, teak, big fat ones, thin ones...I have and usea variety))

You probably would'nt do so well with the pole I train with. In fact - I would bet on it. No calluses you say? That does'nt surprise me at all.

((Now we are into your pole being better than my pole ?Talking about betting on the net- easy to do. Anonymous talk on VTAA is eeven easier. I dont think that you picked up your talking chemistry from Sifu Lee))

Regarding "NYC macho" - I'd prefer that over "Arizona lax". Come by and visit.....we'll compare!

((Words.))

Regarding pads - we fight in our school - not talk about it.

((I have yet to see or be ina real fight with pads))

Without some sort of protection, depending on what we're doing - you would'nt last a minute.

((A Gotham prophecy??A dialog in Marvel comics?))))

Let me kick you in the shin once, and then "you" tell me whether pads are a good idea or not. I guarantee you'll be crawling over for a pair (or two?). Talk is cheap.

((And I am going to let you kick me in the shins?. Calm down--you are hyperventilating and day dreaming))

In regards to blood - seen my share of it. More outside the school. Occasional black eyes, split lip, bruises, and fractures come with the territory. Maybe not your territory.

((You seem to know or think you know what territorry I have been in))

just presenting my beliefs.

((No problem-everyone has an opinion))

[Fresh]

I was starting to think I might be on the wrong forum. Thx for your reply!

[yuanfen]

No problem Fresh- stay the course. It is a great art-many popular fads are around-keep an eye open on the scene. and practice,
practice practice-the art that is=not keyboarding..

[TenTigers]

let me clarify a few things without everyone getting their pantyhose in a bunch-NYC macho mentality? Let's try this on...Alan Lee, Duncan Leong, Wong Shum Leong-none of these guys as far as I know of were raised in NYC-maybe East New York-way the f@#$ east-say Hong Kong perhaps? Yet all three of these guys were from what some of you might refer to as "the Hard School of thought" As far as size is concerned, Sifu Lee stands maybe five foot 7", and can blast any one of us across the room. No, I am not 'enamored' with him, I just have a great deal of respect for his Gung-Fu, having felt his hands. As far as waxwood goes, did you soak the staff in tung oil for six months? This would make the staff much heavier and more resilient. Otherwise, it's not comparing apples and oranges, it's more like oak and balsa-um...Laxwood anyone? There is a world of difference between training with a lightweight staff, and making an 9' solid red oak/or teak staff whip like rattan. This takes time, effort, um..gung-fu. I've seen people who could do it, and I've seen alot of people try. The difference is that anything you pick up is usable, and when pole meets pole, it will decide who will stay on target. Power generation is not gained through speculation, and philosophy, although the reverse is true. the difference is that one holds water. Mun Hung's refrence to shin guards is one of practice-constant practice. For instance-we fall on hard wood and cement-having practiced breakfalls. BUT do you practice endless repetitions on cement? Nope. Why? Cause you're not stupid. You practice on mats so you can do countless reps and survive your own training. Then..you can fall on cement and get up.albeit still bruised. So..we wear shinguards because...anyone?...(yes, you in the back.) "Because we're PRACTICING? -and, and.. they enable us to perform countless repetitions?" YES! Very good, Lad. Tomorrow's assignment is on the board. Now, clear everything off your desks except for a number two pencil.....

[Sabu]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Let's try this on...Alan Lee, Duncan Leong, Wong Shum Leong-none of these guys as far as I know of were raised in NYC-maybe East New York-way the f@#$ east-say Hong Kong perhaps? Yet all three of these guys were from what some of you might refer to as "the Hard School of thought" As far as size is concerned, Sifu Lee stands maybe five foot 7", and can blast any one of us across the room. Another name dropper....? Allow me... I'm sorry to say, the good sir Sifu Alan Lee can not blast me across the room.

"Hard School of thought"? Please define and clarify.

Oh and it has yet to be established whether the shin pads are considered "old school" or "hard school" or whatever...

[yuanfen]

Ten Tigers-like Mun Hung you apparently dont read very well-
I have an assortment of poles including long heavy hardwoods-
and teak
so whats the next macho point...they dont teach much mo duk your way?

[mun hung]

yaunfen - at first, I was thinking about all kinds of nasty ways to reply to you, (came up with some pretty good stuff too) but then I took a step back and realized how pointless and stupid this has been so far. I'm really not interested in arguing with you. (I can argue with my girlfriend anytime she wants) If you still want to discuss training - I'm game. Please accept my apology if I was rude in any of my replies to you. (pretty big of me!) Let's start over.

What I meant regarding pain and/or soreness (same day/next day) was from training with a good sized (10 foot) heavy pole ( red oak). Train with heavy - fight with whatever.

Shinguards are used only as protection during heavy drilling/sparring.

Gothams DC not Marvel. (could'nt resist)

Sabu - do you know who you sound like?

10 tgrs - ROFLMAO

[yuanfen]

Mun hung- no problem. No matter what it looks like--I think trash talk is a waste of time.
I have worked with heavy hardwood poles too and no need to get into my pole is bigger and heavier than your pole discussions. The Freudians would have a field day with that and wc would be the loser. Cheers.

[mun hung]

yuanfen - exellent. I knew we were above that. You're right - no benefit to Wing Chun.

Regarding training - what in your opinion is the benefit of training with many different types of poles? Did you initially work with lighter and then advanced to heavier?

[yuanfen]

Mun Hung- I began with the teak 8 footer and then went up or down depending on what function in pole usage I was working on. Also to adjust to different things in my hand....from a long oar to a broomstick if needed.

[TenTigers]

as far as mo-duk is concerned,first let me say this... I am so freakin HUMBLE that...that.. um...okay, actually, in all seriousness, (well let's not go too far) I wasn't bragging about how macho I or others on the board might be, I am far, far from macho (I'm just a jewish boy from New York who does gung-fu, lifts weights, rides Harleys, hunts, shoots guns, because I have to compensate for having a really small...HEY HEY! Now wait just a dang minute!) oops-ok where was I...oh yeah, I'm not on some sort of macho trip, and I really don't consider my training hardcore, although by some of today's standards, and what I've seen and heard about other schools,we've been called that(like I said, I don't agree) and I understand that people train for different reasons, and have different capabilities. That being said, I still have zero tolerance for dilitantes, like Mr. Merrick. Yuan, I like what you said about using an oar, gonna have to try that. My neighbor has a boat,no oars though, maybe I'll swing his Evinrude around the yard. I think the trouble is that since WC has gotten so popular, we are flooded with people who think it's an easier way out, just like the people who want to learn self-defense, but don't want to have contact. There are schools, and there are schools. Some teach grueling workouts, some collect forms. I've been in schools where you learn snt, then drill, and chi-sao, and lop-sao. That's it. There will always be the student who says, "When do we learn chum kiu?" "Chum Kiu? CHUM KIU?!! Forget chum kiu,forget biu-jee, forget the wooden man, just learn how to use your hands first!" they usually don't stay for long after that. Is that macho?

[Sabu]

Originally posted by mun hung
Please accept my apology if I was rude in any of my replies to you. (pretty big of me!) Let's start over. Yes VERY big of you... and presumptuous too...!!!


Shinguards are used only as protection during heavy drilling/sparring. Is this old school or new school, red school or blue school?


Sabu - do you know who you sound like?
Please tell me...!!!! Is it my elephant?

[mun hung]

You sound exactly like Whippinghand.

[Sabu]

Coming from you, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Should I change my approach? I don't mean to be offensive... But there are some ridiculous statements, contradictions and attitudes being expressed on this thread.

[Alpha Dog]

We mark our territory any way we can.

[yuanfen]

Alaskan Malmutes do too-big territory with numerous
p-mail servers on duty.

[red5angel]

P - Mail! that joke always cracks me up, could be because I am a dog lover! :p

[TenTigers]

okay, now ya got my interest peaked-what is the p=-mail joke?