hmmmmmm.......

[red5angel]

While Living, be a dead man.
Thoroughly dead.
And then whatever you do,
just as you will, will be right.

[apoweyn]

right for what? sounds bloody miserable to me.

good take on being a warrior perhaps. but i'm no warrior.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

For living I believe Ap. Its a quote from the Tao Te Ching, I found it interesting.
I think it sort of implies take what comes as natural, dont cling to what is around you, because death comes to all of us. Just enjoy the moment.
By realising you are dead already, you become free to enjoy life in each moment.
I could be way off.

[red5angel]

?Here is a good example. We walk through life sort of jaded, we sometimes forget to stop to smell the roses. But what if you were on Death Row. Imagine a man who is, he has just recieved before him his last meal. He knows in just a few hours he will be dead, and has come to accept that final truth, his finality. Every bite that he takes he relishes, he savors each moment as it comes. He doesnt wonder if the next bite will taste as good, or if the bite he is taking taste as good as the last one. he is a dead man already, and by this he hsa been freed.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

ah. okay. your interpretation, i dig. i'm a fan of the tao te ching, but this particular passage is odd.

if we take 'dead man' to mean 'man on death row' (as your example pointed out) that makes more sense to me. have a heightened awareness of the here and now.

but when i heard 'dead man', i was thinking of the samurai 'i'm already dead, so what happens to me doesn't matter' mentality. i can certainly recognize what value that mentality would have to a professional fighter who could very literally die at any time. but for me, in this day and age, that viewpoint makes less sense to me.

your interpretation sounded much more daoist to me than mine did though. that was my confusion.


stuart

[red5angel]

Yep, I was actually going to go there. Maybe it is just because I finished a few weeks ago the Hagakure. I think it can be applicable to fighting though, even if it is part time :)

For example, in a fight, we may not give it our all. All things being equal, we feel good, we have plenty of training, etc... The one thing that often stands in our way is fear.
If we were to be like the dead man, and accept that we are dead anyway, then fear might just evaporate and increase our skill that much more? Like the samurai believed, once a man has no fear of death, what else is there to fear?
To me, this doesnt mean I can do stupid things because I no longer fear death, but that in a fight, I may just have an edge, because death does not come to me in my mind, my death is unavoidable, and so why try to hear? Just fight........

[apoweyn]

absolutely. i can see the sort of philosophy outlined in hagakure as being useful within the context of martial studies. and if your whole life is the context of martial studies (as with the samurai) then it makes sense.

for us, though, a more 'localized' use of that philosophy still seems perfectly appropriate. as you alluded, it still has uses even in sparring. biggest problem i see (and experience) in sparring stems from being afraid of getting hit, or hitting someone else, or being beaten, etc.

the application of a dead man's view makes a good deal of sense in that regard.


stuart

[red5angel]

right, I think if youc an overcome that fear of getting hit, then your martial skill increases a hundred fold. this of course doesnt mean you take a hit out of distane for being hit, but that even though you block, dodge, and deflect, you do not fear that a punch may get through, that is inevitable, it gives you ythat much more to pay attnetion to what is instead of what could be.

[Ryu]

Substituted "wise" for "dead"
and you have a good axiom. ;)

Ryu

[apoweyn]

agree with both of ya. :)

[red5angel]

Yep, I think the idea is that this path gets you to the other Ryu! :)

[JWTAYLOR]

The quote is referring to treating your self as dead. Not dying.

Count your body as nothing. It has no value, it has no worth.

Count your desires as nothing. They have no value, they have no worth.

Count your ambitions as nothing. They have no value, they have no worth.

By doing this, you will be unclouded, free of the desires and fears you cary in this life. In death, you will be fearless.


By doing this, all that you do will be right and just.

JWT

[red5angel]

isnt that what we were saying? ;)

Would this make you just though?

[JWTAYLOR]

In reading the Tao Te Ching, it seems fairy prevalent that the cause stated for injustice is illusion and fear. By casting out our fears and illusions, the only path we see is the "right" path.


Justice can be our only way when the truth is our only guide.

JWT

[red5angel]

to me the right path does not imply a moral path, just the only true path through life.
Justice implies a certain view of morality, which so far seems to me goes against what the Tao is saying. Or am I wrong here?

[JWTAYLOR]

Justice does not imply morality. Only equity. Ballance. Really, very Tao.

JWT

[red5angel]

You are correct JWT, I was thinking too one sided.

[red5angel]

A certain person said "In the Saints Mausoleum there is a poem that goes:
If in ones heart
He follows the path of sincerity,
Though he does not pray,
Will not the gods protect him?

What is the path of sincerity?"
A man answered him by saying "You seem to like poetry, so I will answer in a poem.
As everything in the world is but a sham,
Death is the only sincerity.

IT is said, that becoming as a dead man in ones daily living is the following of the path of sincerity"


- Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo