the importance of uniforms

[apoweyn]

what's everyone's feeling on the importance of uniforms? (not necessarily a question about belt ranking systems, but if you want to bring that up, fire away.)

does it create a sense of discipline, tradition, ****geniety?

is it completely unnecessary? does it stifle the individual?

what do you think?


stuart

[apoweyn]

oh, for god's sake. h*mogeniety.

[KC Elbows]

For events like large demonstrations and competitions, they are nice on the audiences eyes.

Other than that, I don't care for them. Any discipline they add is external to the practitioner, kind of fake. Anyone who practices harder because they wear a uniform should reassess their priorities.

In my mind, being able to fight with the system you learn is a better tribute to your school than matching shirts with patches and belts.

[JWTAYLOR]

Uniforms are nice and practical. Shirts and pants rip up too easy, and have you ever had someone do a collar choke on you with a T Shirt on? Might as well be piano wire. Nice for grabbing, plenty of room for stretching, easy to wash allot and no big deal if it gets a little bloody.

To me, it's just practical.

I don't think that uniforms instill any kind of comradery or order within the school. Disiplined, serious practitioners will do that. ja(koffs in uniforms will still be ja(koffs.

JWT

[Suntzu]

I like the shirts… always a conversation starter…but x-tra large is never big enuff… at tourneys, it's cool to have your lil group lookin like they 'bout sumethin… but if/when you or one of your peoples azz get kicked and everybody saw it… that hurts… but at the end of the day, it really dont matter... it's just a way for the school to get a lil extra $$$... but belts suck... who cares how many forms i know if i cant work many of the techniques...


"Uniforms are nice and practical. Shirts and pants rip up too easy, and have you ever had someone do a collar choke on you with a T Shirt on? Might as well be piano wire. Nice for grabbing, plenty of room for stretching, easy to wash allot and no big deal if it gets a little bloody."

that's a good point too… I didn't think about that aspect… blood stains on your uni… now that’s a good sign of rank… that or you get your azz kicked too much…

[red5angel]

Uniforms can bring a sense of ****geneity to a group if that is what you need to shoot for. With everyone dressed the same it will bring everyone closer to the same basic operating level. It doesnt reduce skill but helps each individual to associate with the 'team'.
Unfortunately our society at the moment doesnt promote this, everyone wants to be a rebel and stand alone so unifroms are generally distained.
I dont think they are essential but they can add a team feeling which isnt a bad thing.

[apoweyn]

KC elbows,

i was thinking the same thing, actually. it's similar to bowing (though i do encourage bowing, oddly). you can bow and still think the other guy's a tool. or not bow and still deeply respect the other guy.


JWT,

ironically, a woman in my class ripped my dobok last night. just the little tag off the front. no big deal. but you have a good point. they're usually made of sturdier stuff than a t-shirt.

and yeah, a jack*ff in a gi is still a jack*ff.


suntzu,

can't argue with it's effect at public gatherings, offering some sense of cohesion.


stuart

[David Jamieson]

well, everyone wears one.

business men wear the uniform of the suit and tie, hip hoppers wear the baggy pants and loose fit uniform, hippies wear the grungy jeans and love beads uniform, etc etc.

In a martial arts school uniforms have a few purposes.

1. it identifies you as a part of a community

2. it brings sameness to all and therefore is a form of deterent to ego.

3.it has practicality to it within a style IE: The aikido stylist can hide foot movement with the low hanging "skirts", while in kung fu, the uniform is loose fitting and allows for complete motion.

In Karate the uniform is usually a think canvas GI and provides some protection from scratches as well when someone grabs the cloth the limbs can still move inside. THe cloth can serve as a trap of sorts.

Other than that, it's a style of dress that is representitive of the group you are part of.

peace

[Water Dragon]

I prefer to train naked.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

yeah, that's part of what i'm getting at. i used to teach at a friend's dojang. he ran taekwondo classes. everyone wore some variation on the uniform (full dobok, dobok pants and school t-shirt, belt, etc.)

my class was much more informal. t-shirt, sweatpants, shorts, whatever.

i do think it reflects a different teaching/training philosophy. matt's emphasis was certainly on some sense of community in the school. me, i tend to encourage differences in my students. not inequalities, necessarily (though if someone excels, i'll certainly acknowledge it). but i'm one of those guys that believes that the style comes from the individual, not vice versa. so i try to pick up on people's strengths and weaknesses and take them into account.

not that wearing a uniform precludes that, of course. there may be absolutely no relation between the two things. but it seems to me that if you're attempting to create h0m0geniety in your class, it will affect how you teach individual people.

not sure about that though. thoughts?


stuart

[red5angel]

Thats interesting and a good point Ap. I guess I would have to say that in my belief, ultimately your personality isnt overcome by wearing a uniform, you just more easily identify with those around you who also wear the uniform. this could be said for the instructor as well, he may well be able to focus on a more ****geneous way of teaching, and not pay attention to individual weaknesses and strengths.
However I believe that ultimately it is more a moral thing. As human beings we strive, whether we want to admit it or not, to belong. To belong to something larger. We also strive to be recognized individually. I believe martial arts feeds this paradox somewhat effectively, because in getting into the martial arts we have joined our "group" but still remain somewhat distinct from the large population. Uniforms help to identify with that group and help to set us apart from others around us.

[apoweyn]

note to self: NO grappling with water dragon. :)

[apoweyn]

kung lek,

well, i'm not really considering it a uniform unless the specifics are dictated by someone else. if a kid opts to wear baggy pants because all his friends wear baggy pants, it's not a uniform. it's an expression of an internally-held desire to look the same as the guy next to him. (though it does address a lot of the same issues. you're right about that, i think.)

the community thing is definitely valid, though it's not something i stress myself. i like the point about ego deterrence. it's one of the checks i have in the 'pro' column for uniforms. though i certainly think that there are other ways to achieve the same end. practicality within a style is also a good point. judo has a stiffer gi to allow for use in throws, aikido hakama hide foot movements, etc. i'll buy that.

my students tend to wear whatever's comfortable, etc. without much regard for uniformity or representation. but that's largely because of the size and informality of my class. there's no question he's in the class. he's jude. he's here every tuesday. we all know that. but in a larger institution, i could see it becoming more important. or rather, serving different functions.


stuart

[red5angel]

I think ultimately it can serve a purpose and when not used for nefarious means can be a good thing, albeit not necessary.

Otherwise we could all grapple naked?

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

nicely said. very nicely said. (the community thing, not he naked grappling thing.)

:)


stuart

[DelicateSound]

I like it as it means I don't get laughed at for turning up in a Scooby Doo T-Shirt.


Seriously - I'm not bothered to be honest - its the person INSIDE the uniform that will kick your ass unless you are good.

[Tigerstyle]

"it has practicality to it within a style IE: The aikido stylist can hide foot movement with the low hanging "skirts", while in kung fu, the uniform is loose fitting and allows for complete motion."

That's a good point. There is a possible disadvantage, though, of people taking the uniform for granted. If someone becomes accustomed to applying his/her style with the uniform in mind (ie: the freedom of movement your uniform allows or the "handles" your opponent's uniform has, etc.), that person will suffer if trying to apply the MA with the same level of proficiency as when the wardrobe is different.

That point shouldn't cause much trouble, as long as people understand what they're capable of in and out of uniform (even Water Dragon's "Brithday" uniform :p ). One of my friends sometimes practices in his work clothes. He says, "If you can't fight in your regular clothes, you should change your style or change your wardrobe." :)

The whole "not accustomed to" thing could also apply to practicing in different environments, different terrain, against multi-opponent, with/without weapons, etc., but that's a whole different can of trolls :) .

[Tigerstyle]

LOL @ DS!

I wouldn't laugh at a Scooby Doo T-shirt. I would laugh if you were wearing a headband that said "Ninja" on it.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
I would laugh if you were wearing a headband that said "Ninja" on it.

It actually reads "Enlightened One", and has a picture of Mr.Miyagi* either side of the writing.











*Read with an overpronounced "g". A-la Daniel-san.

[scotty1]

I love Mr Miyagi. That guy fired my interest in the MA before anyone else did, when I was 7 or 8 years old.

[Wipes tear from eye]

If I like a uniform (generally quite plain, perhaps darker shades): It'll make me feel proud to be part of the group (if its a good group)
Increases the camaraderie you feel towards your training partners
Means you don't knacker your clothes
Reduces washing.

However, if its a crap uniform I think it actually has a negative effect:
If you feel silly wearing something, then you're not going to train as well
If a new person joins the group then it increases their feelings of not being part of the group until they can afford a uniform
Its another financial pressure which some people can ill afford
If its a bad uniform it looks tacky

[scotty1]

Daniel: "You're the best friend I ever had."
Miyagi: "Oy, you pretty okay too!"

Kreese- "This is a Karate Dojo, not a knitting class...You don't drop a challenge and leave old man."

Daniel- "This school sucks, man."

Kreese- Mercy is for the week. We do not train to be merciful here. A man confronts you on the street, he is your enemy. Enemies deserve no mercy. What is the problem Mr. Laurence?

Mr. Miyagi- No such thing bad student. Only bad teacher.

Mr Miyagi-concenrate, focus power, make good fight.

Miyagi: Now use head for something other than target

Miyagi:Man walk on road. Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk down middle, sooner or later, get squished.
Same here. You karate do "yes," or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so," [makes squish gesture] just like grape.

Miyagi: Karate come from China, sixteenth century, called te, "hand." Hundred year later, Miyagi ancestor bring to Okinawa, call *kara*-te, "empty hand." Daniel Larusso: I thought it came from Buddhist temples and stuff like that. Miyagi: You too much TV.

Sorry, back to the point....:D

[AdrianUK]

Where I train the uniform consists of a T shirt, choice of pants is down to you (though some kind is required, sorry water dragon). The only designation on the t shirt is the colour, white for students, black with white logo for senior students, black with red logo for instructor grades. As we can train at any clubs in thr organisation it helps give you an idea of whos at what level, if we had the full silk thing I think I would probably feel a pratt

Just my 2 cents

[Kristoffer]

I'm getting 'Kung Fu' overall this summer :D For the China trip that is..

[KC Elbows]

I'd just like to state that, even though I am not into uniforms much, aikido uniforms are awesome, even if some practitioners seem to believe that all attackers are amazingly unbalanced.

Aikido teaches you defend yourself against lunatics, as only a lunatic would attack that way.

Just kidding. I like aikido, its just some schools are kind of funky, just like every martial art, except that indian one, and ninjutsu.:D

I don't believe ninja should practice in uniform, for the teacher's sake.

Ninja Teacher: OK, uh...Bob? Use your free hand to trap his weapon.

Ninja Student 1: I'm not Bob. Bob's in the bathroom.

Ninja Teacher: Uh...who are you?

Ninja Student 2: That's Carl.

Ninja Student 3: I'M CARL!!!

Ninja Student 2: Sorry.

Ninja Teacher(starting to really flip out): WHO SAID THAT?!!

[red5angel]

ROFLMAO!!! @ KC!

I got so excited reading your post I almost kicked my mom in the head!

[scotty1]

Sweet.:D

I tried to look at that site earlier and my company has firewalled it. Bastid fukkers.:mad:

[Budokan]

Uniforms bring a moderate amount of traditional structure to what should already be a structured learning environment. It is, above all else, a psychological tool used to make the beginning student feel he is part of a larger group of like-minded people. As he progresses in his training, he may opt out of the uniform wearing phase, recognizing that it in itself is valueless to the overall pedagogical aspect of MA training.

[apoweyn]

LOL@KC

if a ninja teacher has a room full of 'shadow warriors', does he even know it? or do they blend into their surroundings too much?


surely, there have been similar discussions to this one by various school boards, etc. much of the rationale that's being provided mirrors that in any learning environment. (budokan's statements about building a structured learning environment, particularly)


stuart

[Kristoffer]

Ninjas totally flip out without their uniforms.

[Budokan]

Yeah, but when they wear their ninja uniforms they are totally SWEET!! Especially when they whale away on their guitars....

[DelicateSound]

Budokan spelt "wail" incorrectly. He is no-longer a "winner", and so had no chance of getting his head cut-off by a Ninja.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Great topic. I have never given uniforms or belt/sash ranks much of a thought. I do know that people egos can be boosted when they are wearing a higher color uniform or belt/sash. However, such people will always be like that regardless.

I think one thing about uniforms and belts and such that has not been mentioned is simply the fact that it's a tradition. All my classmates wear the uniform and belt, my instructor and his classmates did, as well as their instructor and so on and so forth. It is just a nice tradition that I wish to uphold when I become an instructor one day. I do not think about creating a sense of unity or that uniforms are a marketing strategy or anything like that. To me uniforms are just what we wear when doing martial arts. Always has been, always will be. Simple as that. This goes for ranking system as well. Which leads me to my next point.

If you think you are hot stuff because you got a black belt then you are missing the point, that goes without saying. A true master with his black belt knows that his black belt is a piece of cloth and nothing more. It's like my instructor told us. We might think that there is something special about that stripe he just stuck on our belt but in reality it is a piece of eletrical tape he bought at the hardware store. Sometimes that needs to be said because we forget that the only reason we wear this stuff is that it's just a tradition.

[Twistedstance]

In my style, the uniform is integral to the training.. well.. not INTEGRAL... but it's still a Big Deal.

The collar cuffs are there to provide some protection from lateral strikes to the neck, as well as remind students, that this is a Part of the Body that should be protected. The centreline of the jacket (where it buttons) aids us in remembering our centreline for punches and balance. The cuffs have a line a few inches from the bottom, similar to where a monk might wear iron rings, these are for remembering/guaging where our deflections and blocks should be going on our forearms.

The colours simply identify who's a sifu and who isn't, there's another significance, but it escapes me. The pants of course are loose, as is the jacket, to provide (as stated earlier) a full range of motion.

Even the spacing of the buttons outline striking points in our uniform... it's effectively a road map.

My sigong is not big on materialistic things, but he has put the uniform together with the idea of making learning good kungfu easier, and it works.

Hey, it looks good too. And that's what counts..;)

In my old style, most people practiced in mufti. Pants wouldn't let them kick right, or they were too long, some of the ladies wore tops that were hard to work out in....

Aargh. In the end, the uniform makes training easy by making clothing one less thing to worry about. It's functional. On the street you have to move in what you have, but while training, you might as well get the most out of your time there.

Better go... getting... too.... SERIOUS......

:D

[rogue]

It's the only time us guys can wear satin and silk PJs in public and not get laughed at. Well those nasty BJJ guys in their kimonos laugh, but they have their own issues to deal with.

[Twistedstance]

So, wanna tell me about your PJs?

I love them, myself. I've got my black, white and red satin getup. It feels awesome to train in. The sifus have the same thing, but in full black with gold dragons.

Classy.