What is traditional?

[KC Elbows]

What is it?

I see contemporary martial arts is supposed to utilize cross training in different arts. But many of the so-called traditional masters had experience in more than one style, usually with one style as a core.

There is referrence to contemporary martial arts utilizing weights and other modern methods of training. Yet, there are rudimentary weight routines used by the traditional styles, although I will admit that many hold that weight training is against the principles of training, though I can't think of a single traditional style where this is universally held to be true.

Full contact sparring is also looked at by some as a contemporary thing, but it seems to me that the stories that have been passed down about the traditional martial artists all involve a lot of challenges, fighting, and other scenarios involving crossing hands. Again, I can think of no traditional style whose practitioners, en masse, hold that sparring is not part of proper training.

Ground training(bjj, jjj, wrestling, judo, etc) is, by many, considered a part of any contemporary martial artist's training. For the chinese martial arts, this one may ring more true, due to the poor view with which the culture holds to rolling on the ground. It is not completely ignored, however, but the emphasis is placed on prevention, avoiding being taken to the ground more than working techniques from the ground, and some systems almost specialize in this prevention by my understanding, monkey being one that I feel has a lot of defenses worked into it. Nonetheless, groundwork is probably underworked by most schools, even including non-traditional ones.

Despite there being "nhb" events for just about every group out there, this is still thought of by some as a non-traditional thing, which is silly. Except for the name, nhb fights are probably as old as Moses. Its the styles being worked in them that has changed.

So, the major difference is ground work, and not much else. Given that the "traditional" fighters of the past incorporated what worked for them into their fighting, it is only logical to assume that the traditional fighters of today who influence their arts in the future will incorporate what they need to, if they need to, to deal with ground fighting in their own way.

Just my rant for the day.

[DelicateSound]

Traditional is a generic term that is often misused IMHO. People say "traditional" and they picture a wise old master training forms under a cherry blossom tree.

B u l l c r a p IMHO.



In the end, training methods evolve thru time. One day we'll train in Virtual Reality, against CyberSifu [TM] and genetic mods will condition our bodies, EMP firming our muscles.




The important part of "traditional" training is the motive and the concept. Train for life, not for sport.



Just my opinion.

[Royal Dragon]

Hm, from what I have seen Of Shui Chiao, it has ground figting in it. It's just not the hug and kiss type found in ring sports of today. They "Cage" the opponent with the legs, wile maintaing a some what standing, somewhat kneeling posture, and pound the c r a p out of the opponent.

Water Dragon, help me on this one, can you explain Shui Chiao's ground fighting concepts a bit better? Compar it to BJJ, as I know your doing both now.

RD

[Badger]

First there was traditional. Of course it worked because there lives depended on it.

Second is the McDojo & McKwoon. Watered down version of traditional to make money...sometimes confused with traditional. Kid friendly, point-fighting, kata divisions,Tae-Bo,Cha-Ching $$$$$$$$$$

Third is the Combat Martial Arts. They train simply for self-defense like their lives depend on it. Considered non-traditional but may be closer to the original than the second.

Fourth is NHB/MMA. They train to fight.Full-contact. No BS. They find out what works & what doesnt real fast(as far as empty hands go). Like the third closer to the original than the second.


Badger

[mantis108]

"What is it?"

This question is asked because of a lack of understanding of what makes up a traditional system. I will open a thread on this later to clear things up.

"I see contemporary martial arts is supposed to utilize cross training in different arts. But many of the so-called traditional masters had experience in more than one style, usually with one style as a core. "

I generally agreed but it is not that simple.

"There is referrence to contemporary martial arts utilizing weights and other modern methods of training. Yet, there are rudimentary weight routines used by the traditional styles, although I will admit that many hold that weight training is against the principles of training, though I can't think of a single traditional style where this is universally held to be true. "

I believe you are right about the misconception. Also traditional CMA has uniques conditioning routines developed to enchance attributes of its fighter but lots of these stuff were too well kept to the point of extinction. Again I will clarify this later.

"Full contact sparring is also looked at by some as a contemporary thing, but it seems to me that the stories that have been passed down about the traditional martial artists all involve a lot of challenges, fighting, and other scenarios involving crossing hands. Again, I can think of no traditional style whose practitioners, en masse, hold that sparring is not part of proper training. "

Agreed

"Ground training(bjj, jjj, wrestling, judo, etc) is, by many, considered a part of any contemporary martial artist's training. For the chinese martial arts, this one may ring more true, due to the poor view with which the culture holds to rolling on the ground. It is not completely ignored, however, but the emphasis is placed on prevention, avoiding being taken to the ground more than working techniques from the ground, and some systems almost specialize in this prevention by my understanding, monkey being one that I feel has a lot of defenses worked into it. Nonetheless, groundwork is probably underworked by most schools, even including non-traditional ones."

I think Royal Dragon addressed this part quit well.

"Despite there being "nhb" events for just about every group out there, this is still thought of by some as a non-traditional thing, which is silly. Except for the name, nhb fights are probably as old as Moses. Its the styles being worked in them that has changed. "

Agreed.

"So, the major difference is ground work, and not much else. Given that the "traditional" fighters of the past incorporated what worked for them into their fighting, it is only logical to assume that the traditional fighters of today who influence their arts in the future will incorporate what they need to, if they need to, to deal with ground fighting in their own way. "

No the major difference is that traditional systems are university material while the contemporary people want to bring them down to vocational school level. That's the major difference. If the real traditionalist would speak up and let not those McDojo McKwoon people claiming to be traditionalist to rejects even blast the contemporary styles. We will have less debate about the effectiveness of traditional arts. Randomly incorporating "spices" in the "broth" will not make a great soup. You need to know the right receipe.

Mantis108

[MonkeySlap Too]

Classical Shuai Chiao has no groundfighting. You throw someone on thier head, or slam them so your buddy can stab them on the battlefield, you pretty much don't have a use for groundfighting.

However, my teacher felt that you should study under many teachers, and even understand groundfighting. That 'cageing' technique you see in the schools from my line comes from the influence of Kun Tao Silat in my martial education.

If you ever show up at Dr. Wu's and my classmates are there, they'll know you came from my group just by how we handle the person after the throw.

Come to think of it, Dr.Wu did give out a handout once that contained these four rules:
1. Throw your opponent
2. Seize and control
3. Strike vulnerable areas
4. Repeat #3 as needed.

So -there are elements of this in Shuai Chiao, and even some ground holds, but not to the level of 'groundfighting' like seen in MMA. We still contend the throw is the finishing technique.

[Budokan]

I wonder what will be considered traditional 20 or 30 years from now? Will it be the overblown mind-numbing watered-down versions that exist today? Will instructors with padded resumes pretending to be reincarnations of past masters be the norm? In the future will the focus of money and greed on the part of "Masters" be looked upon as traditional...?

That's my real fear, I'm afraid.