Making money in the Martial Arts

[Dark Knight]

I was over on a business site and a MA school owner was talking about what he paid his instructors (Remember this is what he pays his employees)

What does your instructor make? Is he worth it or more?

"... says that his chief instructors make between $50,000 and
$120,000 a year. He believes that a chief instructor in the martial
arts should make as much money as he would in any other
profession.

"A career in the martial arts is the best thing I've ever done, and
I believe in giving anyone who wants the same an opportunity to do
so," he says. "Each of my schools has at least two full-time
instructors and a parttime assistant instructor."

[Shaolindynasty]

That's all good and everything but in order to make that kind of money in MA you have to run a major Mcdojo. Most of the time "profession" and martial arts don't go together to well.

[Suntzu]

****… kiddie karate and cardio kung fu pay like that… I'm in the wrong profession:( …

[Stacey]

I kinda doubt it.

Its a service industry, so if he was making that he would be servicing many, many people. He would be working like a dog and probably be making the same if he cut as much hair as he did taught kung fu.

Then again it also implies that so many people think he's good that they pay him. Its a self promotion tactic. I met a fencing instructor that charges 175 dollars an hour. Doesn't mean he gets it, but by naming such a price and doing cheap group rates, everyone feels they are getting a good deal.

Also its a business site, so he could be lying to get all the starving Sifu/Sensei's thinking that they will keep the bill collectors at bay with his spiffy new system of having 8 businesses at once.

babysitting
aerobic instructor
personal trainer
spiritual guru/mentor
weight room/ gym operator
martial arts teacher
reatailer of martial arts equipment, videos, books
tournament promoter

if you take on eight businesses, and make your business your like, you too will make sick amounts of money.

[GeneChing]

Look at the biggest schools in your neighborhood, find our what they charge, estimate the amount of students, and estimate the expenses. Note - there are a lot of expenses you don't see until you get into the business. While some instructors might make as much as $120,000 a year, most don't. Martial arts instruction is a fairly competative field which pushes fair price down. A good location and a well run school can be lucrative, but that isn't as easy a combination as it might seem. The good locations are already gobbled up by the real McDonalds - did you know that they purchased satellite pictures to chart community growth progress in order to best choose where to build a new place? Martial arts aren't in that league at all. Martial arts business programs can really work, but those feed into one of those hidden expenses, so it's quite a trade off. Actually, the restaurent business is a good analogy to martial arts, but while mcdojo is a great term, it's a lot like comparing a cold to cancer. The martial arts is not anywhere near the big league stuff, no where near. EVen the biggest 'mcdojos' nationwide don't measure up to the number of starbucks in any major city.
We are more like those little family-run restaurants, all independants trying to make ends meet.

[Dark Knight]

"While some instructors might make as much as $120,000 a year, most don't. "

There are many reasons for this. I met a TKD instructor who had 600 students. He charged $100.00 a month. Contracts made sure the payments came in.

I met Ju-Jitsu 10th degrees teaching out of his house at $35.00 a month. He had 25 students.

What makes on successful and another not? Marketing, sales, dynamic classes?

Just because you make a lot of money are you a mcdojo?

[Hai_To]

Martial arts as a career is not necessarily a bad thing. It could turn into a bad thing if you're not careful. You start a school. You begin small with a few students upon whom you lavish a lot of attention. They are devoted and become good. Word gets around and more students want to join. So, you expand. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone wants to be successful. However, the bigger you get the more students you get with a "health club" mentality. Martial arts to them is the next trendy thing to do to get into shape. Like yoga, except with cool uniforms. To keep them entertained you begin to water down the lessons. If its too hard, the new students may leave. You start making a lot of money. The older students and the ones who really want to learn the style leave because a "health club" school is not what they signed on for. Suddenly, without realizing it, you own a McKwoon.

You could start a school with the best of intentions, but end up compromising yourself to be successful.

I think it was Yip Man who said (I'm paraphrasing) don't make a martial arts school your career. You could end up cutting corners. I'd have to agree.

[Shaolindynasty]

excellent post hai_to

[Royal Dragon]

with a number of my kung Fu Brothers some who own schools, and some who teach in the parkdistrict, or run Kid's MA classes in local elementary schools (Like I used to), and the common consensus is to run a duel program. One where you are teaching the "Health Club/recreational" types, and a second where you teach purely Traditional.

I think the idea that most situated itself in my head is it should be made so those going on the Traditional program should have to QUALIFY first.

By doing this, you have a vast $$ producing machine with 200 + students at 100-120 a month (Karate school near my house is GETTIN $139 for 3Xa week), and a traditional program where the students can get secial perks, like unlimited acsses to the facilites and unlimited classes and such.


Here are some simple #'s based on the Kid's program I used to run before my health problems forced me to shut it down.

I charged $10 a class for a single class per week, and $7 if they were signed up for all 3. Lets go with the $7 as it was most common.

25 students a night X $7 perstudent = $175 per night. Multippy this by three 'cause I had 3 classes a week, and you get $525 a week for 3 and 1/2 hours of work. I payed $12 per hour for the rent X4 hours a night, (or $48 out of my $175), and about $1000 a year for my insurance. All my insurance expenses were payed out of equipment sales for the season, plus some. The program ran for 9 months at a time with time off for summer (well, I worked with the hard core kids at a break even durring the summer)

So, if we take $175- $48 for the night rent, we get $127 a night, X 3 nights = $381 a week X 4 weeks= $1524 a month X 9 Months =$13716. Subtract $1000 for insurance (just to make it worst case senario Equipment sales covers this though,but), and you get $12716 a year.

Now, if I had been doing this FIVE nights a week, (fridays are always slow, so take that into account.) I'm looking at clearing around $17 G's a year, on a simple part time program, with no more than 30 students. (I had 26 registered, but only about 22-23 would be there. They prepaid for the month, and were responsible to make up any misssed classes, so "I" got paid whether they were there or not. If I doubled my marketing, and had double the students I could be grossing $34,000 and still have summers off to futz off all I like

Most commercial schools have 150 to 200 for an average school. The big boys have 300-400 usually.

When you break it down, there IS big $$ in teaching Martial arts, IF you know how to promote yourself, and keep students. Six figures is NOT unheard of, and quite common for the bigger schools.

[Shaolindynasty]

To be honest one of the major problems i have with the idea of becomming a commercial school is the lack of respect. Let me explain.

when you run a school with the idea of getting $$ you have to very activly seek out students. So in essence you become a sales person. This gives the student a feeling of power because they are the ones with the $$ to pay your rent, so you'd better please them. For that kind of attitude to exsist between the student and teacher can be harmful to the learning process. When the teacher has an alternate source of income it's different.

Me for instance I teach a class at a local park district and can be more serious with my students because any money I get from that class is extra. I don't depend on it and it gives me allot of freedom to be more honest in both verbal and physical ways that I wouldn't have if I taught for a living.


BTW, RD your plan sounds good but it has one very large flaw. Most schools only really appeal to one type of crowd. If you are a tough guy you attract tough guys, if you run a "health club" you attrack those types. If you are teaching a large commercial type kids and "soccer mom" classes usually the real Martial artist's will stay away from your school.

The best way to run a professional school is to think of some kind of side source of income. For instance Wing lam's school has been successful with their mail order business which I am sure contributes heavliy to their school. I always though selling natural health products and message therapy would be a good side also. If I ever become a professional martial artist I will still do somthing like that to keep the doors open instead of "mcdojo" classes.

[yu shan]

Good thread Dark Knight

I have a full time day job, 25 years with co. benefits, pays all the bills, blue collar though. I teach CMA part time at night. I say part time, but in my heart, I`m full time. What I do is rent space from a couple of dance schools. Rent meaning, a split of the tuitions I bring in. I have no overhead, with the exception of the "i" word, insurance. What do you think of a 30/70 split, of course 70% in my pocket? All of this being said, this approach has worked very well for me in my MA career. Stable day job, with the extra funds from MA training/teaching, my family can have a few extras.

Disadvantages=includes no weapons rack, no office on site, generally cannot decorate to look like the "Asian Kung Fu gwan" cadilac school!

Advantages=previously mentioned, no overhead, no **** bills! Although we are not in fancy feng shui, inscents burning dwelling. The emphasis with my Shr-fu is, the training. I am very satisfied that my students and myself are learning the true treasures of Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Doesnt it make you sick to see the TKD schools, teach crap, yet make the money they do? I think people are easily brainwashed, and lazy!

Thanks for everyones input.

[Royal Dragon]

I think it can be done. Professional Gymnastic clubs survive on the "soccer moms" but draw the serious talent fro that pool. My daughter's gym has allways done this, and used the Recreational students to fund the club for the hard core Olympic bound gymnasts. Her gym always has, and will continue to develop national level medal winners.

I don't see why a martial art school can't do the same thing.

I think all I have to do, is copy thier system and teach Kung Fu instead of gymnastics.

[rogue]

What do you guys think a martial arts school needs equipment wise? I've had one teacher say that the kids program brings in the cash so the adults can have the training toys. So bare bones, how much equipment do you really need to train?

[Royal Dragon]

Several bags, of vareing wieghts
Iron hand stuff.
A pile of round landscaping rocks of vareious sizes and wieghts.

All the general weapons.

Focus pads and kick sheilds.

Pull up bar??

You don't need much!!

[Stacey]

1. thai pads/focus mits- enough so you don't have a line of people waiting
2. Kicking shield/cardio paddle
3. Heavy bags
4. Bag gloves/ wraps
5. gloves (boxing or grappling) 2 sets at least
5. Headgear
6. elbow and or chest protector
7. Shin pads
8. A mat for throwing/wrestling
9. jow/first aid


I don't think you can have a professional school without these. I have taken classes and most are mickey mouse things thrown together. To make fighters, I think these training tools are essential..

of course all you really need is 2 people to learn a MA...but your hits wont be worth beans until you hit something solid.

[PaulLin]

Does teaching in local schools like university, college, highschool, either in club forms or class forms, will work? I think there is a lot of young people who are in the athletic programs in school, who didn't make it in the team, would like to be a part of MA? The disadvantage in comparing TKD with CMA is that we really don't have the kind of unified organization and international recognition like Olympic. But in many people's mind, CMA means more than just hollow-selfproudness of TKD.

In fact, some one in Cal. State Fullerton just opened a Wushu class, it counts 1 unit. Kungfu is much better than Wushu, how come Wushu can do it we can't?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by yu shan

Doesnt it make you sick to see the TKD schools, teach crap, yet make the money they do? I think people are easily brainwashed, and lazy!

Thanks for everyones input.

It make me very sick, not only they get the money by teach crap, TKD people I have met acted as if they are the superior and others are all lower than they. I can't wait to kick their *ss.

[CrushingFist]

1. thai pads/focus mits- enough so you don't have a line of people waiting
2. Kicking shield/cardio paddle
3. Heavy bags
4. Bag gloves/ wraps
5. gloves (boxing or grappling) 2 sets at least
5. Headgear
6. elbow and or chest protector
7. Shin pads
8. A mat for throwing/wrestling
9. jow/first aid

I think you can have at most 2 pairs of : #7, 6, and 5.
Because ppl can buy their own. and wraps...ppl can definately buy their own wraps, hell no im wearing other ppls wraps, bleh.

Heavy BagS? as in plural? No you just need one at most, and many styles do not even use bags because the impact is not good for sensitivity in the hands.

Jow/First aid, a bottle of jow is like 10$ so thats not a big deal, and some bandaids and tape and wrap and what not.

I think a couple thai pads are good, and a few focus mits. but cardio paddles are not worth the money.


"I don't think you can have a professional school without these. I have taken classes and most are mickey mouse things thrown together. To make fighters, I think these training tools are essential.. "
I'm suprised you said that because i know you come from mantis lineage...but think back decades if not an entire century or two, they may have had heavy bags at most. I don't think a professional school needs anything more than a professional teacher...everything else is just frills and icing on the cake.

[HuangKaiVun]

I have great respect for TKD schools that have lots of students and run big business.

If they were truly so terrible, nobody would patronize them. Such is the way of free enterprise.

One cannot deny the success TKD schools has. It goes beyond mere marketing; a school has to be able to retain students in order to stay afloat. I've trained in such schools - they know EXACTLY what they're all about and use their collective power of group learning to make themselves better.

Also, most of the really good TKD schools I've been to have masters that know far more than just point sparring. They have the traditional knowledge hidden under the guise of "black belt and up" school. This is how they find out who's capable of hardcore training. If you look at any TKD school that offers such a program, usually the number of people in the "black belt program" is smaller than the average kung fu class.

When I open up my own kung fu school, I'll study closely the practices of the Mckwoons and TKD schools. If I'm smart, I'll learn a thing or two from them about business and marketing.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, there are many Tae Kwon Do schools with 200-300 students. That's a six figure income for the owner unless he's really really deep in debt or something.

Now, if we were to "Kung Fu a'size" a Tae Kwon Do program, Or "Tae Kwon Do'ify" a Kung Fu program, there is no reason why ~WE~ can't pull in six figure incomes from teaching too.

I'm actually planing to take Tae Kwon Do for a wile, not to learn the art, but to see how they are running thier buisness, so I can later open a school near them and steal all their students MUUUUUAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!:p :D :eek:

[dezhen2001]

and the other thread said Tae Li was sneeky! :D

david

[PaulLin]

Well, I have been working with so called IL-DO TKD before. They seems to have all different kind of specialistd working together as a team work--such as specialized in advertising, tournament, accounting, lesson plan, etc. As far as I know, most CMA are working solitaryly, and competing against other CMA rather, not working together at all.

Most of the so called traditional skill that they have, are taken form different styles of CMA, and yet, claim under the TKD style, and telling me how great the TKDs and Koreans are in compare to Chinese.

There used to be a student from Korea, Ko, practiced with us who had learned very old style of TKD, his skills has not that much of high kick at all, very close to a good ShiaoLin style. According to him, the TKD that he saw around in USA, is all new styles, he don't want to practice new ones.

Then again, if CMA must stand up, we need have team work. We don't have a universal standard either, like TKD has, to set CMA into a reliable order (CMA is a much larger field than TKD any ways).

If I would be in the business, the first one I will pick up on against will be TKD.

[yu shan]

Hi PaulLin

tkd folks hate to admit to the fact, there young style has Northern Chinese influence, Totally watered down mind you! They are missing the whole picture. Much to our CMA demise in the USA, unfortunately, Americans are lazy, and do not have a high tolerance for pain. Face it, tkd is the American way of ma. It is very easy, belt ranking provides sense of accomplishment, I`m somebody. PL they are clueless, you know what I mean. In my MA career, I have been invited to testing of Korean arts. Once, I asked a new black belt to show me an application out of the "pattern" just performed. Had no idea what it did. Then I asked the teacher, let`s say I heard ummm. I did show the young man a Mantis version, he won`t forget. PaulLin, my e-mail is ripdogmantis@worldnet.att.net
There style is absurd and comical, if it was your first to pick on, wouldnt last long would it? Could be another thread, what many ways to defeat a tkd guy! Man I have a million!

[PaulLin]

YuShan,
I couldn't agree with you more. That kind of things in experiece with TKD is not new to me. I really can't find a good TKD any where and the good older style of TKD that are really useful appeared to be only myth, fiction.

Oh yeah, we have many ways of defeading TKD techniques, way too easy. They really think that they can be like the proud comic heros, you can say that again.

I usually think that if any CMA people thinking that TKD has any use at all, I will totally doubt about the level of this person's CMA, I would think he/she don't really know CMA. And yet, there are many people claim that they perfession at CMA and TKD at the same time, I can't see that is vaild, since a true good CMA will make TKD obsolate.

My father think that way too, so was GM Wei, GM Wang, and GM Chang.

[Paul]

without getting into the topic of whether you even should be teaching MAs to begin with.

If kung fu is not your passion then you should not be teaching it.

If you see kung fu as a $ sign then something is definately wrong.

If you are passionate about what you do and manage to make money doing it then more power to you.

speaking for myself and myself only right now " I would never ever comprise and teach weak **** to people just to make a few dolllars as been proposed on this thread." Just contributes to the watering down of CMA.

If people "REALLY" want to learn a martial art there is no easy way to do it. It hurts and you will get beat on at one point or another.

please don't use any martial art just to make a buck, this kind of attitude really sickens me.

[HuangKaiVun]

So what is a sifu to do?

Cry out that "I hate money" and close his school in the face of novice students?

Those of us who study kung fu in schools would then have no teacher at all - and it would be virtually impossible to find a sifu PERIOD.

I DEFINITELY see kung fu as a $ sign, and I'll be doing everything in my power to earn as much as I can. If it means watering my art down so that SOMEBODY can learn SOMETHING, so be it. Any fulltime sifu worth his salt embraces the money ideal.

I see nothing wrong with wanting to reach a large number of people, many of whom will not train long in the martial arts due to lack of talent or commitment. They will form the bulk of my future business, and why shouldn't I give them the best training for the limited time they intend to stay? If competitions and belts is what it'll take to retain their interest so that they stay in the martial arts, so be it.

Watering down of CMAs? By what standard is that? What's better, restricting one's student base to a select few or SPREADING IT WIDELY so that people of all walks can enjoy it? The good students rise to the top regardless, just as they do at TKD schools all over the world.

I'd rather a student stay for promotions and glory than simply quit martial arts altogether - or run to the next sifu who offers the things that I do NOT.


PaulLin, you should've met some of the old TKD masters I trained with. These were hardened fighters who'd put chokeholds and dislocations on guys in real fights. My old TKD teacher knew exactly how to hit a guy to cause deep muscle damage without leaving an external bruise or break (internal strike).

Another one (50+ years in age) I knew could break a thick board that he held in one hand with a punch from the other hand. He did this for me in a seated position SLOWLY using a corkscrew motion of the TKD jing. I never could break a board that way and probably never will.

And even some of the younger TKD cats I've seen are horribly tough. It's hard to catch these guys, particularly because modern style TKD rapid fire combinations come and go so quickly. I know - I was one of them.

[dezhen2001]

HKV - good luck man, i think it'll be a hard road but deeply rewarding :)

This thread is really interesting for me, as it helps me understand a bit about the 'business' side of teaching MA as a living. It must be hard to generate enough income through dedicated students, if that's your only living... at least right at the start.

So what can you do meantime to survive and keep the integrity of the skill? It's a tough decision i think...

david

[Royal Dragon]

Here's the thing, if you DON'T offer a watered down program, then it is extremely hard to make enogh $$ to quit yur day job, in which case by working all day, your skills will never be what they should be. AND you will not beable to pass on the arts as they should be either, thus ensuring the demise of the art. by watering it down, and running a profitable school, you at least will have the free time to fully cultivate your skills, and maybe those of a few truely devoted students along the way.

The way i see it, offering a watered down porgram allows the deicated to presue thier art to the fullest so in the end you have MORE real traditinal players with REAL skill, than if you don't do it.

As for your Mcstudents, only a small hand full are capable of doing Kung Fu for real anyway, and if you tried to teach them that way they would all quit and do Tae Kwon Do, so nothing is lost by teaching them, and everything is gained.

So what's the problem now??

[KC Elbows]

As I have no intention of opening a for profit school, I don't have to deal with any of the stuff mentioned on this thread.

However, if you do open a school, have easy stuff taught for the bulk of people, teach the few hardcore people the real deal, what do you tell the students of the "easy watered down" majority? That they are learning to fight? That they are not? Some will ask.

The other thing to beware of is opening many such schools.

Eventually, you will reach the point where you will not be aware of all of the people who should be in the hardcore group, and so you(or the schools instructors) will be teaching people who deserve the real training nothing more than the watered down stuff, and leading them to believe they are learning the real deal.

Eventually, they will leave, find the best teacher they can, and they will make a point of discrediting your school and in any way possible, which is as good as you will deserve, since you were responsible for teaching a worthy student poorly.

What do you tell the students who aren't learning hard core, and thus aren't learning properly?

At what point do you quit opening schools?

What is your criterion for those who make it into the hardcore group?

Is it fair to make a diligent student wait until they reach high rank to learn real kung fu?(In the case of schools with ranking systems)

Have you thoughroughly researched the down side of this type system of teaching? Not just the fact that your school will put out a large number of poor fighters(because remember, you will be judged by ALL of your students, not just the hardcore group), but the mental aspect; if you lead others to believe they are learning more than they are, many of them will eventually resent you for wasting their time.

If you tell them they are not really learning the real deal, you will lose students and anyway, the whole point of this sort of arrangement for a school is to keep students, so you are stuck in a possition where, at best, you will be lieing by ommission, and, at worst, you will be outright lieing.

Remember, as the students will often have a certain awe of you, every lie you make will be remembered, even by the hardcore group, and you are stuck spending the rest of your professional career supporting the lies from the past.

For those of you who believe martial arts should build character(I don't necessarily hold to this, but I know many do), what is the character lesson of teaching your hardcore students that they are learning the right way, and the rest are taught the wrong way?

[Royal Dragon]

As I have no intention of opening a for profit school, I don't have to deal with any of the stuff mentioned on this thread.

However, if you do open a school, have easy stuff taught for the bulk of people, teach the few hardcore people the real deal, what do you tell the students of the "easy watered down" majority? That they are learning to fight? That they are not? Some will ask.
Reply]
Simple, I sell them the Modern main stream Kung Fu system specifcally designed for the American public.

The other thing to beware of is opening many such schools.
Reply]
I am only interested in one location that will allow me to not have to work, yet live a comfortable life style.

Eventually, you will reach the point where you will not be aware of all of the people who should be in the hardcore group, and so you(or the schools instructors) will be teaching people who deserve the real training nothing more than the watered down stuff, and leading them to believe they are learning the real deal.

Reply]
Hm, hypothetically, "IF" I hads a chain of schools then those on the Mainsteam program (Recreational classes) would have to qualify to get on the traditional program. If they can't meet the requirements, I won't qualify them, and they must certify under ME to be on the traditinal program. I could also have a different uniform, or matbe a different ranking system. Like I said, I'm not interested in more than one school anyway. I'm trying to aleviate headeches as it is.

Eventually, they will leave, find the best teacher they can, and they will make a point of discrediting your school and in any way possible, which is as good as you will deserve, since you were responsible for teaching a worthy student poorly.

Reply]
No, I will have a reputation of running quality programs for the general public, AND a quality traditional program. One way to ensure this is to have general public students compete in the little local point tournamnets, but the traditional students fight in the Kou Shou, or San Shou tournaments. People will get the idea I have any students all competing at different levels.

What do you tell the students who aren't learning hard core, and thus aren't learning properly?

Reply]
I tell them they are on a simplified program designed for the typical American market. "IF" they "THINK" they are material for traditional training, and they PROVE that to me, they will be invited to train in the traditional program. The traditonal program will be scaled to match the hourly rate of the recreational program + some extra perks, like unlimmedted use of the facilitys, maybe lockers, showers etc, that way the students won't be paying me any more per hour, and probually less if I can do it to help encourage people to try out for ithe program.

I will prescribe a series of performance standards, and the methods to achieve them. Once they do, I will give them the oppertunity to train on the traditional program on a probationary basis. if they do well, I will keep them there, and they will be happy. if not, they just go back to the Recreational program talking about how much stronger the traditional program is, and thus boost the desire of other students to try out for it.

At what point do you quit opening schools?

reply]
I can't speak for all, but for me, I only want one. Anything more will be too much heache for me.

What is your criterion for those who make it into the hardcore group?
Reply]
I don't know yet, I will have to come up with some way of identfying those that will thrive on a hard core enviroment, and implament a standard and fair way to qualify canidates. Got any idea's??

Is it fair to make a diligent student wait until they reach high rank to learn real kung fu?(In the case of schools with ranking systems)

Reply]
No, that's why I am going to set up some sort of qualifyng bench mark. Any student that can hit that mark regaurdless of rank will by considered a viable applicant

Maybe, I can make it so they must hit the 3rd rank before I will allow them to apply, that way they have the basics down and some fundementals, but I just don't know how I'm going to do it yet. What do you think?

Have you thoughroughly researched the down side of this type system of teaching? Not just the fact that your school will put out a large number of poor fighters(because remember, you will be judged by ALL of your students, not just the hardcore group), but the mental aspect; if you lead others to believe they are learning more than they are, many of them will eventually resent you for wasting their time.

Reply]
That's why I don't mislead them, I explain UP FRONT what the various programs are, and what is taught, inclding posting the currinculem all the way up to Black sash on the wall somewhere. Nothing hiddden, and a clear defined path to follow from day one.

If you tell them they are not really learning the real deal, you will lose students and anyway, the whole point of this sort of arrangement for a school is to keep students, so you are stuck in a possition where, at best, you will be lieing by ommission, and, at worst, you will be outright lieing.

Reply]
Wrong, as the students that want recreational program, will stay for that, and the students that want the traditional program will be challenged to qualify as soon as they express a desire to do so. I will also be useing the traditional program as a selling and marketing point from day one, so students know what they are learning, and can chose the program best suited for them at any given time.

Remember, as the students will often have a certain awe of you, every lie you make will be remembered, even by the hardcore group, and you are stuck spending the rest of your professional career supporting the lies from the past.

Reply]
I'm a strait foreward kind'a guy. No lies will be nessasry. The truth will be a bigger selling point in a situation like this as the general population will see I have programs to cater to a larger variety of personal intrests. People will be able to find their nitch, and persue THEIR needs, not mine, and I still make a good living to boot!!

For those of you who believe martial arts should build character(I don't necessarily hold to this, but I know many do), what is the character lesson of teaching your hardcore students that they are learning the right way, and the rest are taught the wrong way?

Reply]
It's not a right or wrong training, its right or wrong for the student. A studnet with a hecktic scedual and family responsibiltys, would be on the wrong program if they were doing Traditional, when they only had time for the Recreational program.

Those with the time and desire, would be on the wrong program by being stuck in the rec. classes.

It's not about right or wrong training, its about serving your client base correctly. The larger your client base, the more money you make, and the more secure and easy your life is. AND the more time you have to better your own Kung Fu

I want to teach a Shaoiln based system for the main stream recreational program, with 9 colored sashes, and only certifacation for beginner intermediat and advanced for the traditinal program, with NO outward recognition of rank. OR, I was thinking to give the Traditinal students a Purple sash only, or having NO ranks at all until black sash. That is the traditional way. Actually, the whole Black sash thing could considerably be pitched in the trash too, but I think maybe that one rank will be OK.

I'm still fromulating how I want to do this. I have plenty of time as I need to regain my health before any of this plays out. If I don't do that first, it's all fantasy anyway.

What do you think??

[KC Elbows]

Your way seems viable enough. Since one school is your goal, you will be able to have awareness of the students at your school, and can fit their needs suitably.

I was a bit too either or in my post. One excellent teacher I had produced both kinds of students without telling anyone they were becoming good fighters. He did this by making the sparring classes a separate class from forms, all the students saw what was happening in the sparring class and knew that that was how you learned to fight in the school, and those who were more recreational, which is to be respected as well, had no difficulty doing so without difficulty or the need for having their egos fed by stories of the fierce fighting abilities they were learning.

In addition, he knew quite a bit of chi kung, and was able to offer those classes as well. This made an interesting mix, as you didn't go in the school and even think about the fact that you might be one of his best external fighters, since the guy who left the school when you were just arriving was the chi kung top dog, and you were just an amateur in that field.

In my mind, its when people start opening nationwide chains that the credibility issue really starts to come up. All the best teachers I've seen own one school, not chains. The teacher should be there for his or her students.

[Royal Dragon]

In my mind, its when people start opening nationwide chains that the credibility issue really starts to come up. All the best teachers I've seen own one school, not chains. The teacher should be there for his or her students.

Reply]
In theory, I don't agree with you, as strict quality controlls and certifacation standards from the home office can maintain quality controll.

BUT, in your defence, I can't name a single large chain that is anything more than a chain of Mckwoons. Genarally schools with affiliates of the same family spread accross the nation have very high quailty reputations, but they are still individually owned, and only affiliated to the original school because they are family, so they are not reall a "Chain"

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
PaulLin, you should've met some of the old TKD masters I trained with. These were hardened fighters who'd put chokeholds and dislocations on guys in real fights. My old TKD teacher knew exactly how to hit a guy to cause deep muscle damage without leaving an external bruise or break (internal strike).

Another one (50+ years in age) I knew could break a thick board that he held in one hand with a punch from the other hand. He did this for me in a seated position SLOWLY using a corkscrew motion of the TKD jing. I never could break a board that way and probably never will.

And even some of the younger TKD cats I've seen are horribly tough. It's hard to catch these guys, particularly because modern style TKD rapid fire combinations come and go so quickly. I know - I was one of them.

Of course, that sound possible form your words. However, it sounds like too rare of your case in TDK, Yet, I have heard that an old Korean told me that the TDKs are all water down now and the old traditional ones has problem to survive and pass down. Second, since there is no high CMA in your example to compare to, I would really have to see your case my self to really know what are you talking about. Yet, if there ever is any good, traditional, humble TDK existed, I wouldn't really opposing them. But I have not seen any.

[PaulLin]

Royal Dragon,

Just of what I have seen, the people who were in the recreational part of CMA, mostly thought they are in the traditional part. If you told them in fornt, like the staight kind of guy you are, I doubt about how many people would actually be in that recreational program rather than in a 24 hr. fitness ctr or a TKD Kwoon.

I think KC Elbow's idea fits my observation better, since they won't feel like being sold an American-Chinese-food-like stuff rather than a genuin art (in mental accomplishment aspect).

And there I am heavily worrie about the watering down CMA, especially the ones that can't continue into the traditional field. That will make the quality of general CMA unreliable.

Also, things like TDK, Karate, etc. has long been doing advaced marketing in the watering down market, I really doubt about CMA will get any good by jump into that part of marketing and try to compete in that already-not-that-much-potential-remained part.

If you serve watered down CMA as a introductory part, then the traditional parts must not be forgot, both by practioners and in the ears of the public. I would see CMA's advantage is that we have hope to the real traditional arts, with or without the watering down introductory parts, and TDK, Karate are hopeless of getting that part. Then again, that will depends on if the most of American people must known the water downs well enough to value the traditionals. I wondered how many Americans acturally at that stage.

[rogue]

And what kind of high Kung Fu do you practice Paul? You and yu shan are very funny. :rolleyes:

HKV,
"Watering down of CMAs? By what standard is that? What's better, restricting one's student base to a select few or SPREADING IT WIDELY so that people of all walks can enjoy it? The good students rise to the top regardless, just as they do at TKD schools all over the world."

Smart, my TKD master once remarked that it's sad that CMA sifu are restrictive on who they teach since you never know who will be the best. He's had students that didn't have the stuff to be a good martial artists when they walked in the door. But during the color belt process turned things around and went on to become excellent students and instructors. He's also had people who showed much promise who quit or stalled out during the color belt process never reaching their potential.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by rogue
And what kind of high Kung Fu do you practice Paul? You and yu shan are very funny. :rolleyes:


I practice Yang style TaiChi, Xing-Yi, BaGua, 8 step mantis, ShuaiChaio, ShiaoLin ChinNa, White Crane, TanTui, KunLunDanTao.

As well as I think you are funny too. You might say that I haven't seen the real TDK yet, and I will say that you don't really know good CMA yet.

But all that will be just talking until we put them in act. I will be ready for TDK any time.

[HuangKaiVun]

"Ready for TKD anytime?"

Unlikely.

A lot of TKD guys I know are REALLY TOUGH CATS. No matter who faces them, they're going to do some serious damage even if they go down.

You can't tell me, Paul Lin, that a guy like Philip Rhee (Best of the Best) wouldn't be a frightening guy to fight. That guy could hurt ANYBODY - especially a guy who dilutes his focus by practicing as many different sets as you do. Watch that movie if you haven't seen it - there are many guys in real life who have that kind of skill and I've SEEN IT with my two eyes.

Forget not that in mainland China, millions of people practice your Yang Taijiquan style - both old and traditional. I seriously doubt that most of them intend to use it for combat purposes. Do you seek to deny those folks of the benefits they derive from practice?

My suggestion: get into the ring and free-spar against a TKD stylist. THEN flame the style.

[Royal Dragon]

They were always easy to take out. They don't even cover their heads for Christ sake!!!!

If your saying the high level guys are tougher, good, they should be, now lets put them against OUR high level guys. I bet you'd see the same results as my "Tineeeeeey" fights.


The only tough TKD guy "I" have ever seen, crosseed in Sheeto (sp?) Kan, and Judo.

[HuangKaiVun]

Depends on the format.

In point sparring under their rules, they're very tough to beat.

In full contact NHB controlled sparring, I'd probably give the nod to the kung fu guy or mixed martial artist.


In the STREET, I'd give the nod to the better fighter.

[rogue]

RD,
what level TKD guys did you fight? If they were black belt and above and weren't covering then they deserved to get spanked. The name TKD can also cover a multitude of variants of Korean MA, my kwan being closer to karate then most, so you'd also have to say what style of TKD they were doing, sport, Olympic, kickboxing, "traditional". It's like saying I fought a Southern stylist.

PaulLin,
Are you currently studying 9 different styles or is that a list of what you've studyed over time? I'll be seeing what Tai Chi is about as I've found someone to workout with who does TC. I'll keep you posted. If you get to play at someones dojang tell us how you do. Also try some BJJ schools as they're almost always willing to have a go at it. And you're right I more than likely haven't seen very much good CMA yet outside of a couple of Wing Chun players, but I know it's there and I don't underestimate them with a broad brush.

Now back to schools,
PaulLin,
What do you think makes something watered down? I've visited many karate(Okinawan & Japanese), TKD and BJJ schools that seemed pretty serious to me.

[David Jamieson]

There's a couple of things you need to be sucessful in business no matter what your business is.

For martial arts, well, you need a curriculum obviously.

With the curriculum, get a business model. what kind of club do you want? marketing?

With your model start building the business with marketing to the right demograph.

Are you ok with some bread and butter gym facility memberships? Work it in to your model.

Is your demograph workable with what you are ofering? IE: Seniors will warm to Chi Kung and Tai Chi but are unlikely to see the use of themselves commiting to Hard Core Fighting arts, Hevy sparring etc, at least the greater body of them.

Your curriculum must be designed to fit who you are teaching. Your model must fit your ability to deliver the curriculum and you generally have to keep an eye on the opportunities for promotion and further reach into the public knowledge of your school.

it adds up to a few blocks, but it is not rocket science to run a business. Unless your business is rocket science of course.

Good luck, it's a hard grind.

peace

p.s -keeping things in perspective is always good too.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know what "Type" Of tae kwon do they were, but I know most of then were Brown to 2nd Black.

I have seen many tae kwon guys fight in the Pan Ams here run by Ralph Peluso. Every one of them, regaurdless of rank had a sincere problem with protecting their head, especially when kicking.

The other thing, is most of what "I" have seen, they have little in the way of effective set ups for their kicks. Maybe the tae kwon do in Chicago really sux, I don't know. BUT from being online here and other places, it seems my opinion of Tae Kwon Do, is shared by many nation wide. It is often called "Take My Dough" by some of the hard core fight schools here in Chicago, there must be some reason why that phrase was coined.

[rogue]

Sounds like you've run into mostly the sporting variety. Excellent sport, hard to do if you follow the sports rules.
One thing we all have to remember is that we're more than likely to see the sporting version or competitive version of most arts.
Most people have never seen "traditional" Korean arts outside of sport TKD, same goes for CMA where most folks have only seen old hippies doing Tai Chi in the park, a Jackie Chan movie, Wu Shu at the circus or a TV show from the 70's, and that's how you're judged.
Is that what CMA is? So for most martial arts, BJJ being one notable exception, it's going to be easier to find the schools that cater either to sport or mass consumption rather than the hardcore stuff.

Someone also asked a TKD black belt for the application of their hyung. Not everyone trains forms as an encylopedia of applications, some Korean arts don't even have forms, so the black belts response may have been reasonable.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by rogue

PaulLin,
Are you currently studying 9 different styles or is that a list of what you've studyed over time? I'll be seeing what Tai Chi is about as I've found someone to workout with who does TC. I'll keep you posted. If you get to play at someones dojang tell us how you do. Also try some BJJ schools as they're almost always willing to have a go at it. And you're right I more than likely haven't seen very much good CMA yet outside of a couple of Wing Chun players, but I know it's there and I don't underestimate them with a broad brush.

Now back to schools,
PaulLin,
What do you think makes something watered down? I've visited many karate(Okinawan & Japanese), TKD and BJJ schools that seemed pretty serious to me.

rogue,

I should say I am currently researching into deeper of these 9 styles, I have done study on the foundations already. TaiChi is not a big part in fight, if you try to find out what is TC out there. In TC, it is to avoiding fight more. There are some new China masters that has applications, but they cannot be done correctly without many years of experiences. Xing-Yi, BaGua, ShuaiChiao, 8 step mantis, are used more often of I am applying. ChinNa has no foundation and forms itself, it is used mainly on the foundation of BaGua, Taichi, and 8 steps. White crane, I only practiced the 5 element foundations, there are many other forms that I didn't learn, such as 3 Battle, 4 signs, etc. Tantui is mainly serve as foundational training, the use of it is direct and powerful, but got a lot of disadvantages if agaist higher level arts. I didn't went on and learn ChaChuan, a higher level art that supposely follow after you learned Tantui. KunLunDanTao is meditation, gain inner strength and condense body chemically, as well as linking to the sun, moon, stars' magnetic force to help your own qi circlar magnetic force. So in the moves of fighting, that has nothing to do with, only the inner strength.

yet, If I visit any TDK or BBJ schools, I will share the experiences. The tough side of these kind, I would include BBJ and MuiTai.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by rogue

Most people have never seen "traditional" Korean arts outside of sport TKD, same goes for CMA where most folks have only seen old hippies doing Tai Chi in the park, a Jackie Chan movie, Wu Shu at the circus or a TV show from the 70's, and that's how you're judged.


Well, I think the traditional Korean arts are extincted. I have heard people talked about them but never seen one.

TaiChi is also watered-down heavily, it is very difficult to find a Taichi master who really knows how to make the applications work.

[kungfu cowboy]

Why bother with insurance? Can't everybody just sign waivers?

[Royal Dragon]

What if some lawyer finds a way to make the waiver invalid?? What about legal fee's?? My policy covers legal costs regaurdless of the final verdict

[Dark Knight]

What is considered Traditional Korean MA? TKD was created in the 1950's, the forms were based on Shotokan.

[Stacey]

not quite true.


There were previous Korean styles. Basically the whole Northern Leg, Southern fist thing applied to Korea (N) and Japan(S)

Korea was also part of China for a while. There was/is a lot of travel back and forth.

Korean styles even TKD in Korea is a completely different thing than American TKD (which I have zero respect for)

Trad TKD has great kicks, the same kicks you'll find in other Northern styles.

[Dark Knight]

I Know they have great kicks, but why is it consididerd a traditional art, and other arts that are the same age are not consididered traditonal?

Im not debating its effectiveness (Another discussion) But TKD is a sport orientated art. Olympic TKD may be powerful and effective as an olympic sport, but its based on modern training adn concepts. Should it be called traditional?

[rogue]

Much of what is "traditional" Korean arts are based upon Japanese arts. As far as some genuine traditional arts surviving I'd say it's doubtful, though I've heard that Tae Kyon survived in some form as a street art. Kind of like savate.

[kungfu cowboy]

What if some lawyer finds a way to make the waiver invalid?? What about legal fee's?? My policy covers legal costs regaurdless of the final verdict

Royal Dragon--I wasn't aware of the possibility that a waiver could be made invalid. I thought that once signed it was binding.

Legal fees--Do you mean legal fees incurred by a lawsit brought about regardless of having signed a waiver, uh, waiving all possibilities of a lawsuit? That sucks.

I thought that if you have people sign waivers, the liability would be zero, or at least according to whatever you specified in the waiver, which could be set up to cover everything. So are waivers generally useless, and one can ignore them and file a lawsuit anyway? Interesting.

Sounds like you have good policy.

[Royal Dragon]

My waiver is pretty air tight, but in today's age, you never know. Besides, anyone can "Try" to sue you. Even if it goes no where, it's going to be costly.

[Oso]

bit of a statement but RD is right, you will still get taken to court
wether you have a signed waiver or not. Get your lawyer to
approve the language in the waiver for starters then train your
students as safe as you can.

matt

[kungfu cowboy]

Even if it goes no where, it's going to be costly

I must admit, the law is not my forte. If someone tries to sue you unsuccessfully, aren't they responsible for your court costs then? Should be.:mad:

[rogue]

Here's an idea. When I went to workout with a TKD school they signed me up for the X-number of days Trial Classes. I paid something like $14 dollars since I didn't need a uniform. As far as their insurance was concerned I was a student and covered, and got to spar with them some.

[zen_celt]

Speaking as an 18 year old who hopes to someday own his own school, I like your idea. We recently had a career unit at my school(students are supposed to design their own businesses and follow people around for a day in the field they are interested in etc.) and it got me thinking about how to run my future school. I came up with an idea similar to yours but with a few differences.
I also like other people's ideas of having other sources (MA related or not) of income. I trained at a school once that taught a good style(it was American Kenpo Karate, pretty decent) and sold equipment as well. The cost from lessons seemed a bit steep but OK and the real money seemed to come in the form of T-shirts(ranked by color), weapons, bags, uniforms etc. They even sold kiddie crap like headbands and the like. Whether you like it or not, it makes money. I'm not really into what I call glass beads(throwback to "Native" American history) such as the Karate Kid headbands but I bought two of them. I have long hair that kept getting in my way, and since I was traveling I had forgotten my hair ties so I bought the crappy headbands and used them for the time I was there. Figure that I'm not the only one with that situation, added to the fact that kids like 'em and you've got income! The fact that they got discounted equipment from the people whose brand of bags etc. they sell plus commission doesn't hurt either.
I have also studied at a bare bones dojo that had about three heavy bags, a 3 minute timer(for round timing), and a water faucet. They don't make too much from equipment sales or anything, but they have a great rep, good PR(they win most tournaments they are in) and a relatively traditional style of teaching that makes fighters. Because of that, their student base is increasing and they are expanding their services which helps them grow...
Some of the best advice I ever got in business came from a personal trainer I met who told me, "What you need is a lot of people paying a little bit of money."
the phrase "You need a dollar to make a dollar" is good wisdom as well.
-ZC