Knives and footwork - info ?

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

As I have stated in other posts I study WT and I am happy with it, but I can only get to 2 classes a week. I was wondering, is there any equipment that people can recommend for solo training (other than the dummy), I heard the footwork particularly in the knives is new and useful. Since I won't cover the knives in WT for years I dont see any harm in trying another branch of WC's knives form for now. SO, is the form worth learning for improving footwork ? And if anyone has done the WT knives form and any other WC knives form are they very different ? Particularly weight distribution when moving with the knives, does anyone know if you maintain 0/100 as in normal WT stances ?

Any advice greatly appreciated

Peace

[reneritchie]

Leung Ting sifu's knife form looked, to me at least, broadly similar to Koo Sang sifu's, and if memory serves, something akin to the Yip brothers (though without the knife flipping). The other latter period knife sets might be similar as well.

The knife footwork is still WCK, though, (not as different or divergent as the pole footwork).

Rgds,

RR

[AdrianUK]

Rene
Thanks for the info, are there any good books / videos on the form ? For a while at least I will have to be self taught !

Peace

[Dave Farmer]

Hi Adrian

I personally would recommend you wait until you are ready to learn the Knives.

Much of the footwork and concepts in the Knives require a good understanding of the techniques and concepts from the other forms.

I understand the enthusiasm for learning the more 'exciting' parts of the syllabus, but IMHO, enjoy and understand each stage as you cover it without rushing ahead.

you may only form bad habits which are a nightmare to 'un-learn'.

Regards

Dave F

[stuartm]

Adrian,

My footwork was well dodgy when i first started. My sifu gave me basic drills on the mook such as turning pak, bong , jum sau and it improved it no end. The footwork in the knife form is pretty tricky and would only confuse you further. Dont worry - Chum Kil is there to improve your mobility.

Stuart

[yuanfen]

As I have stated in other posts I study WT and I am happy with it, but I can only get to 2 classes a week. I was wondering, is there any equipment that people can recommend for solo training (other than the dummy), I heard the footwork particularly in the knives is new and useful.
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If you are doing wt Adrian--why not stick with wt (including practising what you are taught) until they get to knives/footwork. How you stand and walk and turn is related to footwork... so imitating another lines footwork may not be in synch with what you are learning.I dont do wt and I have seen LT do knives and i dont do it that way.

[anerlich]

Adrian,

all political considerations aside, Emin Boztepe is undoubtedly a standard against whom WT skill is measured.

What I've read about his training is that he spent LONG periods repeating basic moves and combinations (like doing a single combo on the dummy over and over for hours at a time), and this is how his skill got to its level. From what I gather he didn't start learning the pole until just a few years ago.

You could do worse than to follow his example if you feel you want to do more training than you get in class, rather than stepping outside your sub-system.

Other lineages' knife forms most certainly are different, e.g. mine does it with 50-50 weighting and no doubt other differences as well.

That said, I'd never want to shut down an enquiring mind so if you really are curious about the knives, go for it.

[sphynx]

Adrian,

As i can only attend 2 classes a week d/t school i know how you feel. i am pretty gung ho about all this too. i am a few movements away from learning all of SLT, and i gotta put my 2c in. I find that doing the basics is more rewarding than you may think. It may seem a little tedious sometimes, but i think everyone on this board will (for once :p ) agree that these are one of the most important. i practice all my basics whenever i can. even something as simple as shifting. i find a new gem from my limited SLT every day. Plus combos are great to practice, because i want my transitions to be natural. IMHO, you must learn to crawl before you can walk. Happy training.


jeremy

[AdrianUK]

Thanks for all the opinions so far

To put in perspective where I am training wise, I have been training 4 years now, 2 times a week in class and most days at home (working shifting, 8 step drill, sil lim tau, chum kiu, punches).

Heres a better explanation of my thoughts :
The knives in WT are taught about 5 technician I think, thats around 15-20 years training if I am lucky. I was reading Combat magazine a few months ago and Ron Heimburger was doing an article on the knives, and he was saying how they improve stance, footwork and other parts that roll down through your Wing Chun. When I raised this issue I was using the knives as an example of something that helps correct posture, wrist position etc, maybe due to the weight or something (someone fill that gap?). I am a little old to be wanting to learn something for the flash factor, its purely another means for me to self test if you like. I would think of using a dummy for ensure I maintained forward pressure in my shapes, footwork flowed around the leg etc.

SO, if you made it through all that, I guess what I am asking is not is the knife form good for me, but is the use of the knives or any other training aid recommended for testing my basics without a partner or a dummy.

So now thats clear as mud back to you good people
:)

[stuartm]

Hi Adrian,

I didnt realise you had been training 4 years !! Why not go ahead and check out the knives then.

All the best , Stu

[sphynx]

Adrian,
my apologies. not only did i misinterpret your question, but i thought you were as new as i. check the knives out if you want. from what i understand, if you know chum kiu well, then you should know the hand movements and footwork. check them out. also i find the dummy to be good for hand/footwork coordination using what little i know . but i wont learn the form for some time yet.

best wishes

jeremy

[benny]

4 yrs , 2 days a week are you people joking. when did that acount to anything. ive been doing for more than 4yrs 6 days a week and i would not even think of learning the knives. the footwork that you are talking about is different because you are holding two big BLOODY knives. if you use the same with hands it isnt the best way. if it was we would teach it first.
if you truely beleived and understood the style you would know that we teach certain things at different times for a reason. if it was better we would use it earlier. they are slightly lower and usually pass as this is used for weapons.
why not just trust your teacher and learn properly. OR JUST TRAIN HARDER AT HOME AND YOU WILL FIND THE BEST WAY TO TRAIN THE STANCE IS TO STAND IS SLT STANCE FOR HOURS AND FOOTWORK WELL JUST DO IT

[AdrianUK]

Take a pill man , you need to cool off, it was just a question !

[black and blue]

How's it going in Surrey? Shi**y weather, eh? Pi**ing down here in London.... again.

15-20 years before the knives... that sounds crazy to me. And Benny, why wouldn't you consider learning advanced forms if you train 6 days a week and have done so for five years or so.

WC is, after all, meant to be a system that takes time to perfect, but a shorter time period to initially learn. At least when compared to other martial arts.

How many people on the forum can use the Knives and Pole, and how much training did it take before they were introduced?

People post from all over on this forum, so lets compare!

If weapons training helps improve empty hand skills, is it viable to wait 15-20 years before learning them??

Duncan

[dezhen2001]

Well, i'm only at SLT level, so can't really answer anything weapons wise. But i think from what i have seen that it helps to 'refine' your empty hand movements. So for that you need to have a good base first. I guess it also depends on the teacher.

I know at my school, Sifu sometimes takes the class for some basic pole training around once every few months. It's just things like holding the pole in horse stance etc. nothing too drastic. Just to give us a feel of what it's like and how far we have actually to go! I usually miss it because i'm away at University and can only see him once every month or 2 :(

I think the forms 'externally' wise, the movements/sequence can be learned pretty easily, but to have things like correct structure, movement, relaxation, intent etc. is what takes the longest time...

Wolves is pretty crummy right now as well btw...

david

[Fresh]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
But i think from what i have seen that it helps to 'refine' your empty hand movements. So for that you need to have a good base first.

That's what I was wondering about in the pole thread. If you don't have a good base to start with then I don't get how you would use the knives or pole unless you were just muscling them around wich doesn't sound like Wing Chun to me.

[dezhen2001]

Everyone has their own definition of wing chun... i'm gladly only on SLT (enough to learn there).

good luck,

david

[yuanfen]

Yip Man did not teach the knives or the pole in regular classes-
doesnt that give youa sense of the order of things? if you dont master your structure and movement first what will knives and pole do?

[stonecrusher69]

If you don't mind me asking in your system is the pole and knife form different then Yip Man form, and do you have about the same #of moves.

[benny]

you say that the style should be learnt quickly. well people in the old days trained for 16hrs a day, in three years they would do the eqivelant of 10 years that we do. What i was saying is that if you dont do the practice and train learning something else would not help. that is why we only have a few forms. The knives only improve your footwork from what it should be when you learn it, nearly perfect. the concepts are mainly for weapons footwork and unless you have done serious training how do you tell the difference.
When i went to hong kong I was up to the first bit in chum kiu and had been doing it 2 1/2yrs full time and I trained with people that were passed the dummy and i have trained with people that are up to biu jee, learning more with out fully knowing what you should be doing or understanding the technique only makes more mess.
Ask your teacher how he would feel if you learnt it Im sure he will be pleased. in 10yrs when you are up to it, it will be so bad that it will take years of training to break the bad habits you built from not knowing how to do it properly.
In our school time means nothing its the ability to do it properly and I trust my teacher to know what I need to know to help me on my way to finish it. There are a lot of people saying" ive done it for a year and i dont know much but you may as well" come on!!
Thats like saying "Im not sure if its poisionous we have been taught not to touch it for the last 400yrs but I think its not so I will" sounds pretty bright to me

[Redd]

Bennys description also fits many who think they are qualified to change wing chun for the "better".

[black and blue]

Of the five or so who are said to have been taught the entire system (all forms) from Yip Man, which studied for 16 hrs a day (!), and for how long where they active students doing so?

[yuanfen]

Master Ho Kam Ming is old and semi retired now. He had real estate in Macao and Hong Kong- learned privately from Yip Man paid the tuition and practised constantly all day. Yip man would teach the next step after he masterd the previous one. Regular instruction for about 8 years.. then regular contact till YM's death.
HKM taught some of YM's private students. Like YM he doesnt give out freebies. And he is not into marketing or being a hale fellow well met. Doesnt really speak English. he is one of the last of the great YM students who really studied in depth with YM.
He didnt even send in his pic for the so called lineage book...his picture was pasted on in the book. There is a pic of him correcting yours truly on my site.

[Lindley57]

The original question was asked whether to practice Knife Forms from other Wing Chun camps (other than my own) to improve footwork.

Your question implies that you feel your Wing Tsun lineage is not providing you with a complete system. Is this Wing Tsun or your particular sifu/school? Have you touched base with other WT schools/practicioners? Have you asked to improve footwork with your Sifu? Sihings? A lot of things you should consider before seeking outside of where you train.

Kung Fu training is a process that uses various methods to seek a result called Kung Fu. Kung Fu is not compartmentalized into modules that "one size fits all". The Sifu puts you on the path and you must find what becomes "your Kung Fu". There is no this grandmasters way or that which is cast in stone for you to copy. There is, however, the Grandmasters foundation and interpretation, which should be supported by the principles of Wing Chun and understandable use. All forms are expressions of a persons character and interpretation.

If you are not playing the knives, then they are not a tool for which you can "copy" for some result. If your question is truly "how can I improve my footwork?", your forum family has provided appropriate suggestions such as using the Muk Jong and training your Chum Kiu.

As I mentioned in a previous subject, very few truly understand the Wing Chun weapons and even fewer are masters of them. A true Kung Fu guy from any lineage would not just "show you" the knife form. But instead help you with the base of what you want to do.

Good luck in your Kung Fu

[byond]

hey i feel like spamming to for my si gung.
leung sheung was a already aged and experianced kung fu sifu. he had learned weng chun from tang suen and had learned pai mai from ?, which he specialized in the dragon techniques contained in the pai mai system. leung sheung was big and strong but found that the slight built yip man controled him like a rag doll. leung sheung became yip mans first student in H.K. leung sheung lived with a learned from yip man for over 5 years. in which time he also helped instruct the new students such as chu shong tin and wong shun long. leung sheung, chu shong tin, and lok yiu were the first students who represented yip man in dah tien hah(fight to take over whats below heaven).
so its rather obvious that yip man held nothing back when teaching leung sheung who had the expireance of other southern kung fu's to know the real from the flower brocade. even though he had a large frame he was know for his soft approach to wc. strssing relaxation was the key to success. he made sure the students knew the power he generated was not from his size or speed but from his relaxation and his root.

[AdrianUK]

Thanks for the replies all

Lindley57

This thread got a little hung up on the knives what I originally asked was

"I was wondering, is there any equipment that people can recommend for solo training (other than the dummy), I heard the footwork particularly in the knives is new and useful"

What I was asking was far more general than the replies have been. I was trying to include things like wrist weights, or balance beams, or the martial arm (from Immortal Creations). I hope I did not give the impression I was trying to rush through the system or was dissatisfied with my teacher, I am very happy where I am and with the training I receive, the intention was for tips on solo training aids, I just used the knives as an example, perhaps unwisely.

Anyway thank you all for your replies

Peace