The dan tien in wing chun....

[monkey man]

I was wondering if anyone here focuses specifically on the dan tien when moving or turning the hips? What about in energy cultivation in SLT?

Thanks..

[stuartm]

Hi MM,

Youre on the right tracks here. This should be the focus of your breathing , espec in SLT.


Stuart

[reneritchie]

This is a difficult question since while there is a lot of classical writing in regards to Taijiquan on Dan Tian and related paradigms, Wing Chun Kuen, a Southern art, didn't historically use the same terminology or look at things the same way. So, you won't find much if anything written or talked about in Wing Chun Kuen wrt Dan Tien before modern times.

WCK did talk about waist (Yiu) and hip (Kwa) usage, however.

In modern times, now that TCM and the classics of other arts are more widely spread, its possible some have looked and seen parallels in WCK methodology, and found the longer history of scholarly work in those fields (and related terms and models) helpful in describing (their views on) WCK.

Rgds,

RR

[monkey man]

Originally posted by stuartm
Hi MM,

Youre on the right tracks here. This should be the focus of your breathing , espec in SLT.


Stuart


But what about as pivotal point in space?

[Alpha Dog]

A book on chi gung would explain to you the dan tien and its relation to the rest of the body's "chi circulatory system." don't just look at one thing in isolation, or "from a Wing Chun perspective." you will fill in all the blanks with your own assumptions if you do.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
A book on chi gung would explain to you the dan tien and its relation to the rest of the body's "chi circulatory system." don't just look at one thing in isolation, or "from a Wing Chun perspective." you will fill in all the blanks with your own assumptions if you do.

I didn't actually ask for an explanation on the dan tien, just if anyone focuses on it in their particular wing chun training (be it in class or individually). Such as when turning in chum kiew or biu jee. The reason I brought up SLT, is because there seems to be different approaches to it - some more internal than others - and was wondering if any instructors place any emphasis on the dan tien when teaching this particular form.

Thanks..

[Alpha Dog]

No, thank YOU Monkey Man! Cheers

[yuanfen]

Wing chun is taught ina variety of ways by different taechers.And
teaching styles vary. And wing chun has not been big on literature.To anser your question ina constructive way-
Yes the dan tien is very important in what I do and the way i learned and it has nothing directly to do with taiji or imported from taiji or its literature. The dan tien is important enough in
Indian and Chinese concepts of the body that it is integrated
into many teachings--- sometimes by talking, sometimes by showing and sometimes by "pointing" at how things should be done.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Wing chun is taught ina variety of ways by different taechers.And
teaching styles vary. And wing chun has not been big on literature.To anser your question ina constructive way-
Yes the dan tien is very important in what I do and the way i learned and it has nothing directly to do with taiji or imported from taiji or its literature. The dan tien is important enough in
Indian and Chinese concepts of the body that it is integrated
into many teachings--- sometimes by talking, sometimes by showing and sometimes by "pointing" at how things should be done.

Can you elaborate a little more? What do you mean by '"pointing" at how things should be done"?

I'd really be interested in hearing about specific examples in your own practice!

Cheers.. :)

[dzu]

Yes, I try to do everything with the Dan Tien. It's one of the focal points of my training.

Dzu

[Yoshiyahu]

In Wing Chun the Dan Tian is where chi is stored...


Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.

[Graham H]

There is no dan tien and chi in Ving Tsun! Only in crazy peoples heads! ;)

[Eric_H]

In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun we use the three dantiens as a basis for structural alignment in our 4 Gate Tien Yan Dei expression. They also play a part in our Jaam Jong Faat Ging training as well.

[Yoshiyahu]

There is no dan tien and chi in Ving Tsun! Only in crazy peoples heads! ;)

oooh so i guess wing chun must be different!!!

[Lee Chiang Po]

oooh so i guess wing chun must be different!!!

I always say Fried Rice, but my mom always called it Flied Lice. Same difference. It is because lots of people have the wrong idea of what Chi actually is. They think of it as a loaded gun you shoot people with, but it is only the energy you use in your existance. Without it you just lay dead. It is the fuel that drives the body. You could also call it your strength, but it really isn't. However, you can focus your body strength into singular movements, and this is called Chi.
A little, skinny fellow that is without muscle tone or strength will have weak Chi, and a really strong and fit man will have strong Chi.

[RedJunkRebel]

I was wondering if anyone here focuses specifically on the dan tien when moving or turning the hips? What about in energy cultivation in SLT?

We focus on the lower dan tien a great deal in our Wing Chun practice including the breathing, balance as well as the knee/hip/elbow connections. Our practice follows a very internal, Taoist approach similar to Tai Chi. In fact, we use the Tai Chi Classics (http://www.orangecountymartialarts.info/2007/10/classic-literature-of-chinese-internal.html) as a guide to refinement. We also practice what I call internal Wing Chun breathing (http://www.orangecountymartialarts.info/2011/12/internal-wing-chun-breathing.html), focusing on inhaling into the lower dan tien rather than simply chest breathing. You can imagine your lower belly expanding like a balloon as you breathe in. Start by spending 5-10 minutes a day breathing this way. We include this in our practice of the Siu Nim Tau form. The goal is to gradually increase the time you practice up to at least 20 minutes or more a day. Once you can maintain abdominal breathing for that period of time you will notice how much easier it is for you to become relaxed when needed, including during hard sparring.

[Yoshiyahu]

very very interesting thanks for your post!



We focus on the lower dan tien a great deal in our Wing Chun practice including the breathing, balance as well as the knee/hip/elbow connections. Our practice follows a very internal, Taoist approach similar to Tai Chi. In fact, we use the Tai Chi Classics (http://www.orangecountymartialarts.info/2007/10/classic-literature-of-chinese-internal.html) as a guide to refinement. We also practice what I call internal Wing Chun breathing (http://www.orangecountymartialarts.info/2011/12/internal-wing-chun-breathing.html), focusing on inhaling into the lower dan tien rather than simply chest breathing. You can imagine your lower belly expanding like a balloon as you breathe in. Start by spending 5-10 minutes a day breathing this way. We include this in our practice of the Siu Nim Tau form. The goal is to gradually increase the time you practice up to at least 20 minutes or more a day. Once you can maintain abdominal breathing for that period of time you will notice how much easier it is for you to become relaxed when needed, including during hard sparring.

[Yoshiyahu]

I always say Fried Rice, but my mom always called it Flied Lice. Same difference. It is because lots of people have the wrong idea of what Chi actually is. They think of it as a loaded gun you shoot people with, but it is only the energy you use in your existance. Without it you just lay dead. It is the fuel that drives the body. You could also call it your strength, but it really isn't. However, you can focus your body strength into singular movements, and this is called Chi.
A little, skinny fellow that is without muscle tone or strength will have weak Chi, and a really strong and fit man will have strong Chi.

thank you sir!

[Graham H]

oooh so i guess wing chun must be different!!!

You can put what you like into your Wing Chun mate! I don't beleive in chi and nor do my peers, Sifu and Sigung. Nor do I beleive in ghosts, magic or that 95% of the Ip Man Wing Chun that is around today is anywhere near close to what Ip Man practiced himself!

My opinion of course. You don't have to agree. In fact I would be happy if you didn't.

GH

[Graham H]

I always say Fried Rice, but my mom always called it Flied Lice. Same difference. It is because lots of people have the wrong idea of what Chi actually is. They think of it as a loaded gun you shoot people with, but it is only the energy you use in your existance. Without it you just lay dead. It is the fuel that drives the body. You could also call it your strength, but it really isn't. However, you can focus your body strength into singular movements, and this is called Chi.
A little, skinny fellow that is without muscle tone or strength will have weak Chi, and a really strong and fit man will have strong Chi.

So chi means muscular strength does it? If so then call it what you like! I call muscular strength......muscular strength.

The chi that I'm on a bout is the chi that many so called "masters" use as a marketing tool to lead people into thinking they can do magical things. Things outside the normal human realm! It's all BS! Skill and power come from hard work which ironically is what "Gung Fu" actually means!

I can tell if somebody has been spending years and years of hard work to acheive a certain level of skill and striking power and I can also tell who likes to talk, sit at the foot of the kung fu hall in a chinese kung fu suit and nore more a gifted fighter than I am a gifted quantum mechanical physicist!

GH

[Graham H]

Just like some people believe in God which also isn't true. Like me many don't. It wouldn't be good to all be the same.

G

[Yoshiyahu]

so ur saying the way ip man practice himself is no where near what most wc does today?


Also who is your sifu and your sigung?


You can put what you like into your Wing Chun mate! I don't beleive in chi and nor do my peers, Sifu and Sigung. Nor do I beleive in ghosts, magic or that 95% of the Ip Man Wing Chun that is around today is anywhere near close to what Ip Man practiced himself!

My opinion of course. You don't have to agree. In fact I would be happy if you didn't.

GH

[Paul T England]

The lower Dan Tien is your centre of gravity and the central point of your body where most of the major muscles etc attach. You cannot move properly without it being used.

Saying that the approach is a little different to taiji as all styles have a different idea but are all based on the human body.

No need to think about chi or anything mystical...if you understand somethign it should be able to be explained without cultural or religious views.

Understand every eastern martial concepts in western terms.

There are mulitiple ways to turn, punch, step etc depending on what the objective is.

Breathing can be done in many different ways but whether it was originally part of wing chun, who knows...

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Graham H]

so ur saying the way ip man practice himself is no where near what most wc does today?

Too f***ing right I am!

GH

[anerlich]

The lower Dan Tien is your centre of gravity

I can accept that argument, though with some scepticism


and the central point of your body where most of the major muscles etc attach.

Um, No.

[Neeros]

A little, skinny fellow that is without muscle tone or strength will have weak Chi, and a really strong and fit man will have strong Chi.

Then how come many of the great kung fu masters were elegant and graceful, as opposed to large and muscular?

Chi is just Chi, I don't try to define it but I know it exists from direct experience through my practice. What I do know is that it has little to do with big muscles, or hadoukens for that matter. :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

So chi means muscular strength does it? If so then call it what you like! I call muscular strength......muscular strength.

The chi that I'm on a bout is the chi that many so called "masters" use as a marketing tool to lead people into thinking they can do magical things. Things outside the normal human realm! It's all BS! Skill and power come from hard work which ironically is what "Gung Fu" actually means!

I can tell if somebody has been spending years and years of hard work to acheive a certain level of skill and striking power and I can also tell who likes to talk, sit at the foot of the kung fu hall in a chinese kung fu suit and nore more a gifted fighter than I am a gifted quantum mechanical physicist!

GH

No. Chi is not actually muscular strength. It is the energy of the body. I don't know how else to call it, but it is the life force itself. If you work until you drop, you have no energy left to function. You are so tired that you simply cannot move. You have expended your chi. Chi is just your energy force. You can actually learn to direct it into individual movements and actions, like striking or kicking. You can not project it beyond your skin though. It is none existant outside the body and can not be used except to drive the mechanics of the physical body. If you are strong and have large and powerful muscles, then you can more effectively apply this chi. If you are weak and without muscle strength you can not apply your chi as effeciently. That is what I was saying.

[Graham H]

No. Chi is not actually muscular strength. It is the energy of the body. I don't know how else to call it, but it is the life force itself. If you work until you drop, you have no energy left to function. You are so tired that you simply cannot move. You have expended your chi. Chi is just your energy force. You can actually learn to direct it into individual movements and actions, like striking or kicking. You can not project it beyond your skin though. It is none existant outside the body and can not be used except to drive the mechanics of the physical body. If you are strong and have large and powerful muscles, then you can more effectively apply this chi. If you are weak and without muscle strength you can not apply your chi as effeciently. That is what I was saying.

I don't agree! If "chi" is the chinese term for energy then that's ok. I would just rather call it energy. I do not believe that you can learn to direct chi! We as humans can do that already. It takes muscular energy triggered by the brain to do every single movement. Why make it so f***ing mystical???? The amount of force and speed you can generate naturally varies amongst humans in their natural state. Everything else comes from hard training. It's not rocket science. If somebody believes they can manipulate chi and send it to certain body parts you are just stating the obvious. Those that think it gives them special powers or sets them apart from the rest need lining up and shooting with very large guns!!

GH

[Graham H]

.......in fact I think that those who think they have "special chi power" are slightly retarded! :p

GH

[CFT]

What we call the dan tien, modern athletes call the 'core'. They don't practice chi gung to exercise it though, just specific physical exercises to strengthen that abdominal area. It's all about posture IMO.

[Paul T England]

IMHO

Chi Gung is only one aspect of Nei Gung or Hay Gung.

Breathing is verey important for everything and subtle differences can be felt.

Your Core (Dan Tien) should be used (without gross movement) all the time. That is what they try and teach in tai chi. The mind directs the boddy, the body moves as a single unit (through the core).

You can feel it in Siu Nim Tao and Chain Punching once you understand.

Its not going to triple your power or anything its just good soild body mechnics that all martial arts and physical arts should employ.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[LoneTiger108]

What we call the dan tien, modern athletes call the 'core'. They don't practice chi gung to exercise it though, just specific physical exercises to strengthen that abdominal area. It's all about posture IMO.

A great enlightening comment there Gee, and something I feel many many people simply do not see or recognize imho.

The Dantien can be considered as a specific 'field' or 'area' of which there are at least 3, more commonly 6 and in tantric/spiritual practice there are 7!!

I would say that all athletes DO practise a variation of Heigung, but without all the mysterious mumbo jumbo. Jogging itself is a Heigung practise ;)

[anerlich]

What we call the dan tien, modern athletes call the 'core'. They don't practice chi gung to exercise it though, just specific physical exercises to strengthen that abdominal area. It's all about posture IMO.

Pilates practice makes a great deal of integrating correct breathing and engagement of the core. I recently did a few sessions recently with a remedial physiotherapist to work on a shoulder injury and was blown away with the precision and attention to detail involved.

Since most WC practitioners seem to feel the need to say "most WC practitioners don't understand X", I'm going to chime in and say most WC practitioners have a vague and incorrect understanding of breathing and core structure and function. Including many who teach something they call qigong.

[Yoshiyahu]

Pilates practice makes a great deal of integrating correct breathing and engagement of the core. I recently did a few sessions recently with a remedial physiotherapist to work on a shoulder injury and was blown away with the precision and attention to detail involved.

Since most WC practitioners seem to feel the need to say "most WC practitioners don't understand X", I'm going to chime in and say most WC practitioners have a vague and incorrect understanding of breathing and core structure and function. Including many who teach something they call qigong.

i met a pilates grand master who could turn himself invisible and bilocate multiple selves while invisible!

[CFT]

Hi Andrew, I took a few pilates classes recently. I agree with you about the attention to detail with regards to co-ordinating movements with breathing and use of the pelvic floor.

[LoneTiger108]

Hi Andrew, I took a few pilates classes recently. I agree with you about the attention to detail with regards to co-ordinating movements with breathing and use of the pelvic floor.

I 'experimented' loads with core exercises, especially after a few back, knee and hip injuries, and I found Pilates worked very well (even without instruction) along with Yoga. There is something that must be said for that 121 coaching though as some of the guys I've met are simply superb at what they do and can tell what you need by the way you walk!!

Still, after discussing at length with most of these peeps it was clear that what we were doing was Heigung to me, just without all the mystery and 'special forms' and in some respects you could actually feel the stretches and posturing work straight away with Pilates :)

[CFT]

I've not practiced heigung but the pilates seemed to ring bells for me.

Standing exercises with breathing, pelvic floor and arm movements seemed quite like zhan zhuang (zam jong) and heigung to me.

Aligning the spine, slight pelvic tilt --- ding ding ding!

[Yoshiyahu]

i like to do a little heigung pelvic tilt with my lady friend...give a little a yang between her yin!

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't agree! If "chi" is the chinese term for energy then that's ok. I would just rather call it energy. I do not believe that you can learn to direct chi! We as humans can do that already. It takes muscular energy triggered by the brain to do every single movement. Why make it so f***ing mystical???? The amount of force and speed you can generate naturally varies amongst humans in their natural state. Everything else comes from hard training. It's not rocket science. If somebody believes they can manipulate chi and send it to certain body parts you are just stating the obvious. Those that think it gives them special powers or sets them apart from the rest need lining up and shooting with very large guns!!

GH

You might be right about the retarded thing, probably including all of us for even trying to discuss this thing.
However, I can see that you are not understanding what I am saying. You keep using the word mystical. That tells it all. I did not in any way indicate it was something mystical. This is just your understanding of the subject matter. I will try again before giving up completely. Chi is your energy force. When we see people running around with the whole body flexed and screaming and whatever, they are using energy at a much excellerated rate. This is why in most fights the untrained individual becomes exhausted and out of breath quickly. He uses up his fuel way to quickly. Training hard can increase your stamina to some extent, but all that is doing is increasing your chi, or available energy. Eventually it will play out too under the same circumstances. By channeling your chi, I in no way indicate that you shoot people with it or have super human strength or whatever. That is comic book stuff. You can learn to maintain a somewhat relaxed body, not completely relaxed or you would fall in the floor, but not flexed and stiffened. Not burning energy at an excellerated rate. You can use an arm to punch with, flexing it hard and expending your breath at the point of impact which will place your energy into that action only, and not into the entire rest of the body. Lots of martial arts use this technique. It is nothing mysterious at all, and understood by a world over of martial arts fighters. It is not that difficult to understand once you forget about the mystic stuff.
If your life force was sucked out of your body, you would fall dead in a heap. That life force is your Chi. You have it. We all have it. Your ability to participate in this retarded discussion proves that.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Then how come many of the great kung fu masters were elegant and graceful, as opposed to large and muscular?

Chi is just Chi, I don't try to define it but I know it exists from direct experience through my practice. What I do know is that it has little to do with big muscles, or hadoukens for that matter. :D


No, no. Grace and elegance has nothing to do with size of muscles. The strongest man I have ever known was a farmer from Oklahoma that must have weighed about 160 pounds. He was slim, but his muscles were very fit and extremely strong. A fit man is going to be stronger and more able to perform than a weak, soft man. That just goes without saying. Muscles do not necessarily have to be big in order to be strong and fit.
I have large muscles even at my age, and this has a tendency to intimidate people. However, I have met a few thin people that were very capible of accounting for themselves in a fight.

[imperialtaichi]

What we call the dan tien, modern athletes call the 'core'. They don't practice chi gung to exercise it though, just specific physical exercises to strengthen that abdominal area. It's all about posture IMO.

Hey guys, have a look at 武當太和門天罡桶子功 Wudang Taihemen Tiangang Tongzi Gong. They have a pretty interesting and practical approach to the concept of Dantian (more or less the whole pelvic region), and what seems to be a prototype YJKYM.

May be you can copy and paste and Google.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I was wondering if anyone here focuses specifically on the dan tien when moving or turning the hips? What about in energy cultivation in SLT?

Thanks..


Not with turning the hips as such. The slow movements of the sil lim form are not for the cultivation of energy. It is to teach the movements to focus the application of the dan tien energy, or Qi. You can do this with the entire form. You can do it with the other forms as well. But, you only do it slowly in the sil lim as it is the first form and you learn pretty much how the energy is focused by the time you move on to the other forms.

[Graham H]

No you haven't convinced me! It's still a whole bunch of sh1t!

GH

[Hendrik]

Lower Dan Tien in tcma ima is not a single thing.

It means different thing in each of the five layers （physical, breathing, awareness, momentum(Jin, sheh), and qi (charge, circulation).

Thus, unless one has a handle of it in Each of the five layers at will one really don't have a full view. Or don't know what it is.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Lower Dan Tien in tcma ima is not a single thing.

It means different thing in each of the five layers （physical, breathing, awareness, momentum(Jin, sheh), and qi (charge, circulation).

Thus, unless one has a handle of it in Each of the five layers at will one really don't have a full view. Or don't know what it is.

Well Hendrik, I have never tried to seperate it into 5 different layers. I just apply it as a single layer. Having to seperate it into 5 layers is far to complicated when you are in a violent altercation. I have trained in breathing, awareness, Qi application, and I find it a simple thing really. Trying to seperate it and fully understand it is not really necessary. I simply bring it together into a single exercise. It is like my pistol. I don't break it down to all the components, but I can still shoot the heck out of you with it.

[Lee Chiang Po]

No you haven't convinced me! It's still a whole bunch of sh1t!

GH

LOL!! Why am I not surprised? Ok, fair enough. I won't waste my time or yours then.