Spotting Forum Trolls and Virtual Tough Guys

[Sharp Phil]

A while back someone alerted me to the fact that a portion of my Field Guide To Trolls was quoted in a thread on this board. I thought I'd register and share the whole thing, along with its companion piece on Virtual Tough Guys. Enjoy!

COMBAT POSEUR
How To Spot a Virtual Tough Guy
-------------------------------------

(This article was published in slightly modified form in The Electronic Journal of Martial Arts and Sciences (http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_elmore_0402.htm).)

The Internet is a wonderful tool for the sharing and acquiring of knowledge on any number of subjects. The martial arts, self-defense, and general "combatives" are no exception. There are many quality web sites and discussion forums available to the student of self-defense looking to learn while whiling away a few sedentary hours.

Unfortunately, self-defense and the martial arts attract a particular breed of fraud in vast and limitless numbers: the Virtual Tough Guy (VTG). The VTG is often quite young, but not necessarily so. He may or may not have useful information to share. What is important to the VTG, however, is that you be impressed with how very cool he is. More tenacious than a mall ninja (http://www.mallninja.com), more impervious to reality than Ashida Kim (http://www.ashidakim.com), the VTG needs you to acknowledge what a badass he is. He uses a variety of intellectually dishonest tools to accomplish this, among them vague claims to unverifiable training, crude reverse psychology, and the judicious application of bootlicking. Fortunately, the average Web denizen can learn to spot the VTG's warning signs, and take with his or her posts the appropriate number of grains of salt.

The Major Warning Signs

While these warning signs are by no means inclusive, and should not be used as the basis for an immediate declaration of VTG status when exhibited by a specific Internet forum participant, an individual who exhibits more than one or two of these signs should be viewed with skepticism and even suspicion. Chances are, he's a VTG -- and even if the information he imparts is not tactically, physically, or logistically unsound, he's using you to gratify his ego. Who wants to be used? Who enjoys condescension and pretense?

...I have survived fights by always expecting at least one more attacker than what you see and always expect weapons. The time that I was seriously cut? I was caught by surprise with a guy drawing a hidden straight edged razor. That was in my early days. I have been fortunate enough to survive attacks with my attackers presenting guns and knives. Usually two or more attackers. I have also come out of fights relatively unscathed where I faced approximately twenty gang members, several times,different occasions. Mostly knives, chains, and pipes there.

...My first fight with a gang? I was in high school ...I was determined that no one was going to get my buddy from behind.
The gang guys all started taking off their belts and rolling them up on their fists. We walked out of that fight at the end of that fight and he had no more trouble from that gang as long as he lived there...it was a stand up fight. I think I wouldn't let myself go down because I didn't want to let my buddy down.

...We showed up at the agreed upon time and place and there were about 20 of the Chinese gang members who were there to make sure there was a "fair fight." Sure, that was why there were 20 of them against the three of us and they used pipes and knives. 'Course we used nunchucks, three sectional staff, and chain whip. That ended the fight real quick.

...Anyway, we could go on and on with this stuff...

Look at Me, Look at Me

The VTG likes to start things off quickly. He'll introduce himself to a forum by telling everyone things he assumes they must know, since obviously everyone is interested in his personal style and statistics. No one has asked, but the VTG is more than happy to march in and announce his credentials to those assembled.


Hi, I'm new here! Let me give you a little background.
I'm 6', 215lbs, and built like a He-Man action figure. I'm old enough to have some experience, but too young to feel it yet.

The Mean Streets

The VTG invariably hails from a tough life on "the street," where he accumulated the majority of his deadly fighting experience. Often he will claim to be a former Bad Guy of some type, perhaps making references to the terrible temper he once possessed over which he's now managed to gain control. Much as half the Christians one meets in America Online's Christian chat rooms claim to be reformed Occultists, VTGs quite often claim to be criminals, thugs, and gang bangers who've seen the light. Of course, their brutish pasts would make such folk People With Whom You'd Best Not Trifle -- and that's what VTGs want you to think.


I used to be a real street punk, man. I was the kind of Bad Guy a lot of you are talking about defending yourselves against. I've matured a bit, and grown out of it, but I still remember what it was like to fight for fun. Over the years I picked a lot up from experience. Metal shows, brawls, and street fights over everything from girlfriends to articles of clothing. I studied a few MAs, but mostly reading, and watching demonstrations. As for practice, I've sparred pretty much constantly for the last 15 years with whoever I happened to hang out with. I've had every style I've heard of used on me, and found out what works on them. I also compare notes a lot with my sparring partners.

Unverifiable Style

A known, quantifiable style is the mortal enemy of the VTG. Most self-defense and martial arts enthusiasts are familiar with the specifics of a variety of known styles and techniques. If the VTG were to construct his ficticious background from these, his lack of real knowledge would quickly become obvious, and posters who tried to pin him down would be able to talk him into a corner from which he could not escape.

No, the VTG only rarely admits to a specific style background -- and if he does, the more obscure it is, the better. He may claim to have been taught by a single individual, a Wise Old Asian Master to rival the legendary greats of ancient Japan or China. Most often, though, he'll just tell you that his personal style is an eclectic mix of things he's picked up in his travels. For a lot of genuine martial artists and self-defense enthusiasts, this is true -- but VTGs only very rarely will be able to point to specific component styles. One in a thousand VTGs can try to explain how certain techniques from component styles would work together, but this, too, is rare.

I am not formally trained, but I have a lot of experience. This has evolved into my own personal self defense style. Right off, I will point out that that is exactly what it is. A last resort SHTF survival method when I can't avoid a fight. I say this because I can't point to a style, and say "That's what I do." Most of you guys can pick Karate, aikido, or Wu-Shu out of a lineup, and know where to look up the rest. This will just give you some idea of where I'm coming from. As always, it works for me, but your results may vary.

Those Who Can't Do...

With great regularity, VTGs will admit -- sometimes reluctantly -- that they also teach martial arts or self-defense. It's all very informal, of course, but the VTG wants you to know that he or she has helped others along the path of the true warrior. He or she is that good, after all -- why wouldn't someone with such skills impart them to willing students?

(Another variation on this theme is comprised of Scientific VTGs. Scientifics will claim to have performed some extensive and lengthy period of research into a given topic, and will make up facts and figures based on this personal and unverifiable body of evidence.)

In rare cases, VTGs will actually claim to be paid instructors actively teaching self-defense or the martial arts in some physical location. They normally will be very circumspect about this, for obvious reasons.

I've informally taught SD, but rather than teaching a system of dances, I basically show people how to develop their own skills. This is lumped under training, because I learn a lot teaching. i also pick up a lot from them, who generally know this or that in the other style.

Its Only a Flesh Wound

Your average VTG has been there and done that, man. He's been shot, he's been stabbed, he's been cut. He's won countless fights and lost a few, too.

I've been in a lot of fights, and defended myself from all kinds of weapons. I've been shot once, stabbed once, and cut countless times.

I Don't Want to Brag

The VTG will tell you he's not bragging, perhaps even tell you he doesn't want to discuss his past. All the while he's doing this, he hopes you will want to know. And of course he is bragging, but his boasts are hidden behind a shield of false modesty.

Though I lack formal training, I have enough experience to beat some who do. I'm not bragging here. Just trying to get us all on the same frequency.

...continued below...

[Sharp Phil]

...continued from above...


Questionable Information

The average VTG loves to be the center of attention, and he wants you to believe he's an expert. To that end he's constantly telling you what he thinks he knows. The problem is that he's basically ignorant -- and, as a result, he'll contradict himself. Apart from contradictions, he'll often dispense information that's just plain false or based on misconceptions. When this happens, other forum members are quick to smell blood.

You know, it doesn't take much to be lethal with a knife. It's lethal for you, so if you can manage not to cut yourself, and put it into the other guy, you win...

...I carry a knife, but it's primarily a tool. I will use it on someone in self defense, but it's not my primary choice. My reasons are varied, but in short, a knife is very lethal, but lacks "stopping power".

Me Too, Me Too

A VTG can't stand it when he or she has nothing to add, fictitious or otherwise, to a conversation. As a result, the VTG often will chime in simply to agree with what's being said. This, by itself, doesn't really raise red flags -- but often the VTG will behave as if he or she has discovered something new when he or she is simply restating the opinions of other participants in a discussion.

Yeah, I've done that. Oh, I agree. Yeah, that squares with my experience. Mmm, yes, I've taught that one to friends and had it used on me as well.

Can I Lick That Shoe, Sir?

A suspicious moderator is the bane of VTGs. The smart VTG knows this, and will do his best to ingratiate himself with those who have power and influence. The VTG knows that many moderators and administrators, being human, are susceptible to having their egos stroked. What he or she may not know is that some moderators see straight through this technique -- and feel nothing but contempt for it.

Wow! I wish I'd written that. That's one of the best quotes I've ever heard.

Legends in Their Own Minds

A VTG can't help but create fanciful stories that are increasingly over the top. As a result, he or she will describe behavior so absurd as to border on self-parody. This is easily spotted, and sometimes sounds the beginning of the spiral of self-destruction that is a VTG who has been caught in his or her web of tall tales.

Fighting with pool cues, eh? I've done that, but if memory serves, my technique was closer to Florentine sword and dagger. The lighter pointy end forward, and low to parry, and nice heavy end high to strike with. Of course, I couldn't cut, or stab, so the strikes where a lot less linear. It may sound kind of unorthodox, but I was outnumbered, so I wanted to put on as much show as I could.

CONCLUSION

Virtual Tough Guys are a minor nuisance. At least, they would seem so -- except that some people might take what they say seriously. Those who see through their facades become increasingly impatient with the utter hogwash spewed by VTGs, too, which ultimately decreases legitimate participants' enjoyment of a discussion. By keeping the warning signs in mind, you may be able to spot a VTG before he or she uses you (and those whose virtual company you enjoy) to gratify his or her need for attention.

================================================== =================
Virtual Tough Guys are a subspecies of Classic Troll as defined in Phil's Field Guide to Trolls:

PHIL'S FIELD GUIDE TO TROLLS
An Analysis of Forum Fauna
------------------------------------

A troll is a bulletin board participant who posts for one or both of two reasons: 1) to disrupt; 2) to gain attention.

THE MAJOR BREEDS

The Vulgar Troll. These, the crudest of all trolls, make no attempt to hide their species. Often, they make racist comments, or they may post porn and other spam. Vulgars usually confine their comments merely to primitive, profane, off-topic observations. When you log into the Really Profound Serious Philosophical Discussions board and see the post, "I smell my ****s," you've spotted the Vulgar Troll. Other species of troll sometimes revert to this form when cornered.

The Deceptive or "Classic" Troll. More sophisticated but often easily identified and exposed, the Classic Troll gratifies his ego by pretending to be someone or something he or she is not. Classics make up elaborate stories about themselves, sometimes weaving some amounts of truth into their lies. As a web of lies is difficult to build with consistency, however, Classics are often "outed" by other forumites. When this happens, Classic Trolls have a bag of tricks to which they turn:

-- Classic Troll Tactic Number 1: If the heat gets too much for you, claim it was all "a joke." In this way you can excuse any and all deceit by claiming people just weren't smart enough to "get" the humor of it.

-- Classic Troll Tactic Number 2: Create another account, and log on pretending to be someone else, in order to show support for the Troll in Question (TiQ). These puppet accounts sometimes claim to be disinterested third parties. At other times they pretend to be "friends" of the TiQ.

-- Classic Troll Tactic Number 3: When your lies paint you into a corner, claim that your little brother, or some unnamed friend, has commandeered your account and made you look foolish. This technique can also be applied in claiming that the puppet account(s) you created may not, in fact, be disinterested third parties or friends, but that they are your relatives ("little brother" is most common) only trying to help support you.

-- Classic Troll Tactic Number 4: When nothing else works, claim that now, finally, you're telling the truth about all the lies you told before. Make up a fresh set of lies, and throw yourself on the mercy of the forumites.

-- Classic Troll Tactic Number 5: When all else fails, claim to be leaving forever. Trolls who claim they are leaving never do, of course; you can bet that anyone who proclaims, "I'm never coming back here," will most certainly at least check back for responses, and probably will not be able to resist posting again.

-- Classic Troll Tactic Number 6: Have a tantrum. When all their other tricks are exhausted, Classic Trolls will become angry and start shouting. Often they revert to Vulgar Trolls when this happens.

Virtual Tough Guys are a subspecies of Classic Troll.

...continued below...

[Sharp Phil]

...continued from above...

The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you."

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers.

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice.

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. Pursued by Troll Bashers (see Natural Predators below), the Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice -- all the while continuing to respond to them.

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above.

The Agenda Troll. Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own -- often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum. When a flame war erupts on another board, for example, Agenda Trolls will follow their opponents to other forums in order to continue the spat.

Some Agenda Trolls are subject-matter oriented. An Agenda Troll who thinks Self-Defense Instructor X is a fraud, or who feels he has been ripped off or otherwise dealt with unfairly by Instructor X, will visit forums devoted to self-defense and martial arts in order to spread his or her negative opinion of Instructor X.

Agenda Trolls may also be of the milder Spam Agenda subspecies; these are Trolls who join a board specifically to advertise some venture of their own. They are not often troublesome, though their shameless plugging is met with varying degrees of irritation.

The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species.

When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree -- particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views -- Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks. A philotroll's bag of rhetorical tricks includes a variety of transparent ploys, such as willfully misinterpreting the opponent's words, committing Straw Man fallacies, accusing his or her opponents of engaging in the very tactics used by the philotroll, and so forth.

When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are mong the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind.

The Artistic Troll. A higher species of Classic Troll, Artistic Trolls are intelligent individuals who understand the subtle art of trolling, and who do what they do specifically to make others look foolish. Often employing the techniques of Deceptive Trolls, Artistics will string forumites along until some point in time designated by their own desires, at which point they will reveal the ploy, admit that it was a ploy, and laugh at everyone for being stupid enough to fall for it. Artistic Trolls delight in sowing discord, but do it in a highly developed and fully aware manner. They do not care if they are despised, and do not seek the approval of forum participants. Chaos is their only goal, and preferably chaos with a humorous bent to it. Without a doubt, this is the most dangerous species.

TROLL SPOTTING

Trolls often have many basic characteristics in common:

1. Low post count. Trolls usually do not last long enough on a forum to rack up a large number of posts. Be particularly suspicious of any poster whose count is not yet in double digits and who appears to be causing trouble.

2. Suspicious IP addresses. Puppet accounts will have IP addresses identical to that of the TiQ.

3. Suspicious E-mail Addresses. Accounts that are similar in nature to those of the TiQ can indicate a puppet account. AOL accounts, for example, are particularly suspect, because AOL allows multiple usernames for a single account.

4. Syntax and grammar. Trolls, particularly Deceptives, invariably have trouble hiding their writing styles. Puppet accounts, or serial accounts created after previous accounts have been thoroughly discredited, will display traits similar to that of the TiQ.

NATURAL PREDATORS

Trolls have certain naturally-occurring enemies. Among them are these:

Moderators. An active moderator is the bane of trollkind, as a moderator can lock a troll's efforts before they come to fruition, see to it the troll is banned, and generally make the troll's existence unfulfilling. Moderators are normally above more direct efforts to humiliate or expose trolls, which makes them ultimately more dangerous but less intimidating to all breeds.

Troll Bashers. The worst enemy of trolls, Troll Bashers appear to possess an almost pathological hatred for trolls. Fully aware of the tools and tactics of trolling, Troll Bashers expose trolls whenever they see them. Often the first to identify Contrarians, and unforgiving in the pursuit of Deceptives, Troll Bashers are experienced and venomous. Often accused of being trolls themselves, Troll Bashers understand the difference between the initiation of trolling and the retaliation against it -- and believe any amount of retaliatory abuse is justified when a troll rears its ugly head.

Angry Forumites. Though normally slow to anger, and lacking the venom of Troll Bashers, Angry Forumites can pose a danger to trollkind when they gather in groups. While it takes three to five Angry Forumites to equal the danger represented by a single Troll Basher, they are not to be underestimated.

[Water Dragon]

You're the guy who wrote this? Sharp Phil, you're my hero :D

[yu shan]

Do you have MA ability? Or are you just computer geeks!

[Sharp Phil]

Water Dragon wrote:
You're the guy who wrote this? Sharp Phil, you're my hero :D
I am indeed the guy who wrote that. And thanks. :)

Response to both articles has been really positive, and I've seen pieces of them quoted here and there at various forums. To be published in EJMAS (http://www.ejmas.com) was particularly gratifying.

yu shan wrote:
Do you have MA ability?
I am indeed a martial artist, though I consider myself a mere amateur -- especially compared to some of the superwarriors one encounters online. For example, I couldn't hope to take on small armies or armed street gangs and triumph unscathed, nor have I been shot or stabbed.

yu shan continued:
Or are you just computer geeks!
I try not to be more than one computer geek at a time. ;)

[yu shan]

Sharp Phil

What is your MA background? Have a good day.

[Sharp Phil]

I've studied Chidokwan Karate (http://www.chidokwankarate.com) and (very briefly) aikido (http://home.twcny.rr.com/aikidocny/). I hold no rankings of significance. I now train with a friend who has a black belt in judo as well as a few years' experience with Ju Jitsu, TKD, and a couple of different styles of kung fu in addition to his military training. He's quite skilled, and I've made a lot of progress working with him.

Sadly, niether one of us will be taking on armed street gangs any time soon. :p

[DelicateSound]

Low post count

Mmmm. Seen your own recently? :D


I know - website........


Where are the quotes from BTW? Fictitious? I swear I've actually seen some of these.

[Sharp Phil]

Almost all of the quotes are real ones taken from public forums, though in some cases I have paraphrased, and in others I have altered a few of the pieces of personal information listed in order to protect the guilty. In a few cases I wrote them myself to sum up the point I was trying to make.

[dezhen2001]

nice one and good luck. that was a cool read :)

david

[jon]

Great stuff Phill
Seeing as we have you hear do you mind if i ask you strait...
Do you mind having this stuff posted elsewhere provided your listed as the author?
I know a couple of other sites that im sure would get a kick out of reading this.

MA bbs trolls seem to be a special rare breed that has already developed its own habbitat and ritual behaviours. Now with your study the path is open for walking for all of us who like to see and enjoy the wonderfull world of trolls.

PS do you mind if i use your guide as a 'how to be a successfull troll guide' ?:p

Well done Phill great work.

[Sharp Phil]

Jon,

Sure, feel free to post these anywhere you like as long as I'm credited as the author. The easiest way would be to post links to my web site.

The Field Guide to Trolls appears here (http://home.att.net/~philelmore/fieldguidetotrolls.html) and the VTG article appears here (http://home.att.net/~philelmore/mafraud.html).

[DelicateSound]

BTW Phil: Nice slating of Roadhouse :D It's so bad it's almost good.



















Almost.

[bongtzu]

Thanks for your post.
Informative, and fun to read.

[fightfan]

Very good! However by your own standards YOU are a troll;).
The following statements in your guide could easily be applied to this post...

"Look at Me, Look at Me

The VTG likes to start things off quickly. He'll introduce himself to a forum by telling everyone things he assumes they must know, since obviously everyone is interested in his personal style and statistics. No one has asked, but the VTG is more than happy to march in and announce his credentials to those assembled."


"Unverifiable Style

No, the VTG only rarely admits to a specific style background -- and if he does, the more obscure it is, the better. He may claim to have been taught by a single individual, a Wise Old Asian Master to rival the legendary greats of ancient Japan or China. Most often, though, he'll just tell you that his personal style is an eclectic mix of things he's picked up in his travels. For a lot of genuine martial artists and self-defense enthusiasts, this is true -- but VTGs only very rarely will be able to point to specific component styles. One in a thousand VTGs can try to explain how certain techniques from component styles would work together, but this, too, is rare. "

"I Don't Want to Brag

The VTG will tell you he's not bragging, perhaps even tell you he doesn't want to discuss his past. All the while he's doing this, he hopes you will want to know. And of course he is bragging, but his boasts are hidden behind a shield of false modesty."

" Questionable Information

The average VTG loves to be the center of attention, and he wants you to believe he's an expert. To that end he's constantly telling you what he thinks he knows. The problem is that he's basically ignorant -- and, as a result, he'll contradict himself. Apart from contradictions, he'll often dispense information that's just plain false or based on misconceptions. When this happens, other forum members are quick to smell blood."

" The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species. "

"Trolls often have many basic characteristics in common:

1. Low post count. Trolls usually do not last long enough on a forum to rack up a large number of posts. Be particularly suspicious of any poster whose count is not yet in double digits and who appears to be causing trouble."

Besides that, very well thought out guide! :cool:

[Sharp Phil]

True enough. However, if I was a VTG or some other category of forum troll, it would be kind of self-defeating to make my initial posts a comprehensive guide to spotting me. ;) I've always figured that those to whom the Guides don't apply will either dismiss them or be quietly amused by them. But then, to be perfectly honest, I've always been a little bit naive when it comes to people. I'm always straightforward and honest with others, and I tend to take other people at their word (or I used to). I suppose that's why the frauds and scam artists in the online world and the self-defense industry peeve me so.

What's truly interesting about the phenomena of forum trolling and credentials falsification is that many very genuine, completely earnest people might at first glance display some of the warning signs. The friend with whom I train regularly displays many of them -- and before I worked with him, I was almost certain he had at least exaggerated his abilities and experience. (What I discovered, about the time he got busy kicking my ass, was that he hadn't said anything that wasn't true.)

The Guides are thus just helpful indicators, rather than definitive evaluators. A participant who shows one or more of the warning signs and characteristics listed is someone of whom other posters might want to be wary. A participant who displays many of them is probably a troll -- but barring a personal admission of disruptive behavior, there's no way to know for sure.

One legendary troll on the http://www.bladeforums.com board, who went by the name The Tactical One, spun a fanciful yarn about how he'd been attacked by a mugger armed with a Spyderco Civilian. When the details of his story didn't seem plausible, he cracked and admitted it was all a "joke," and things spiraled down from there. (It was TTO who formed the basis for the Classic Troll profile in the Field Guide.) Without his admission, though, there never would have been any way to know for certain that he was lying, but there were so many warning signs that it was very likely.

All things considered, there could very well be a poster or two on this board who really has fought a gang of twenty people and lived to tell about it. Is it likely? Probably not. But given the diversity of human beings and the anonymous nature of the Web, anything is possible.

I'm comfortable with any judgment the individual reader makes. Online, after all, we can be judged by nothing but our words. :)

[fightfan]

Phil,
nah man, just giving you a hard time!;)
Seriously, good work man. You seem like a straight up cool dude. No offense meant.:cool:

[Sharp Phil]

Oh, not at all. You just brought up something I'd been thinking when I posted originally, and I thought it would be fun to expand on those points for the benefit of any lurkers who might be wondering.

[Stacey]

stacey is a troll....er I am..I have been all over the troll scale. Guess what? Its fun. there are a few people on here I'll have serious convos with.


You should also add what creates troll?

1. Boring posts
2. People arguing about moronic things they don't understand for the sake of arguing. In such a case, how can't you throw some gas on the fire and watch them freak out.
3. Rich Mooney or someone else claiming to be all knowing, all powerfull and the coolest tough guy. They deserve it. Its good for their ego lessness.
4. Crude conversations...GDA's no troll, but he stirs people up.

also consider that some of us trolls just want to be catylists for change or agree with view and exagerate them so that they look stupid.

IE- We should eat the Irish children to control the population.


Trolls serve a function on the forum. What all is in balance, they go away or become respectable members. When all is awry, everyone becomes a troll.

[Dark Knight]

I just read "The Irritating and Complex Politics of the Online Self-Defense World "

You should post this, its pretty good.

[Sharp Phil]

Thanks! Here it is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is no human being in the world more indignant than a liar who has been cornered. Even if the corner in question is built entirely of electrons and the liar so cornered is safe behind a computer screen, you will enrage no person so much as the individual whose tall tales you refuse to swallow.

In the online world of self-defense, combatives, and martial arts, tall tales are the foundation for many Virtual Tough Guys' delusional architectures -- architectures that support the false and inflated identities they have built for themselves.

Taken by itself, this is neither here nor there, though one supposes some martial newbies run afoul of the self-proclaimed super ninjas and SpecOps BlackBag operators who pretend to be imparting useful information. There is no way to tell how many people have been burned and dropped the pursuit of self-defense in disgust. Hopefully those so victimized realize that for every crackpot and egomaniac there are two good instructors and half a dozen relatively benign McDojos.

In the endless search to absorb that which is useful and discard that which is not, many find their way blocked by the titanic egos and endless rivalries among practitioners, instructors, and students in the realm of the martial. The scenario may sound familiar.

Self-proclaimed Commando Instructor Ultra Master X claims to be teaching a martial art that has been handed down from the kings of Atlantis, which happens -- like so many arts -- to look a lot like ju jitsu. Instructor X gets plenty upset when anyone says they don't believe him, and he's got a few friends who buy his video tapes (which he insists be called "courses," not "videos") or who met him at a seminar once, who are only too happy to chime in and support him.

Those who think Instructor X is a liar and a faker can't stand to see fiction passed off as fact, so they say so. The two sides start trading insults. Alliances are formed. Teacher Z of School Y, which split from School K when Teacher Z got into some sort of ideological or logistical or even financial spat with School K's founder, now can't stand School K's founder. He allies himself with Instructor X, while those who support School K's founder start forming up on the other side of the Virtual Line of Doom the parties have drawn in the electronic sand. Skirmishes are waged in various online forums, the parties concerned trash each other in list-served e-mail groups, and everyone concerned becomes increasingly furious.

Soon various participants to the argument start demanding that the others put up or shut up. Instructor X, who lives twenty states removed from the people with whom he is arguing, offers a free "hands on" demonstration to anyone who doesn't believe, knowing that no one will take him up on his offer -- and of course attempting to end the discussion with this implied argumentum ad baculum. The few critics who've actually seen Instructor X's videotapes tell all those who can't afford the overpriced "courses" in question that they're crap. The critics who haven't seen the tapes are perfectly willing to accept these judgments. And Instructor X continues to whine and scream that he's misunderstood, that he's been treated unfairly, that anyone who won't believe him has a closed mind, and that he's the greatest practitioner of the greatest art in the world, if only people would stop asking him pesky questions about his falsified credentials, his art's ficticious history, and the fake name he uses.

Along the way, something is lost: the goal of self-defense. Well-meaning practitioners, teachers, and students become side-tracked dealing with the egomaniacal nonsense spewed by those claiming to do the impossible in order to gratify their personal needs. The fakers, for their parts, become increasingly entrenched in their delusions of greatness. And everyone forgets, despite the best of intentions, that the reason we're here is to fight THEM, the faceless masses of societal predators who seek to eat us alive.

For pity's sake, let's stop this already. If you're an earnest teacher or a student of a legitimate art, respond to criticism with facts and logical argument. If you're a fake, drop the pseudonym, distribute the videos for free, come clean, and join us in the search for knowledge. Stop trying to be something you're not -- and stop cluttering the world of self-defense with the pointless politics of petty rivalries and damaged egos.

We've got better things to do -- and more dangerous enemies than each other.

[dnc101]

Phil- excellent posts! You've apparently had some training in the science of logic, and you use it well.

[umgong]

Sharp Phil,
I guess you found me out....NOT!
Just because you say it doesn't make it so, nor my saying so makes it true. As I have said in the past, whether or not you believe me doesn't change what happened. Peace, Sharp Phil.
It is a shame that you will miss a lot of greats in the martial arts. I am not saying that I am one, but there are a lot of them out there who I have had the priviledge of knowing. Apparently we all live in a different world then you do.
It is good that many like you can live in a safe and secure world. Many of us were not priviledged to live in the same neighborhoods as you and so we gained a lot of street experience and honed our martial skills as we learned. Many opened martial art schools later so that we could teach the good people in those 'hoods to survive, learn the discipline of the martial arts, and make a better life for themselves and others.
As someone mentioned, how do you measure the wheat from the chaff especially when you can only judge what we say from our words?
You can't...you only measure what we write against what you want to believe.

I'm sorry that you judge us so quickly by your standards. My only recommendation is that you look at all stories suspiciously and take what you can use to improve yourself.
But again, it's your priviledge. Have a good life and stay safe.

[Sharp Phil]

Originally posted by umgong
Sharp Phil,I guess you found me out....NOT! Just because you say it doesn't make it so, nor my saying so makes it true. As I have said in the past, whether or not you believe me doesn't change what happened. Peace, Sharp Phil.
Uh, okay. I think I missed the part where I said, "That umgong guy is a VTG wussy." These are warning signs, not definitive descriptors, and if they don't apply to you, they don't apply to you. It's been my experience, though, that the people who get all bent out of shape over these articles are the ones who have some issues with which to grapple when ego meets truth (if you'll forgive me for being slightly poetic).

It is a shame that you will miss a lot of greats in the martial arts. I am not saying that I am one, but there are a lot of them out there who I have had the priviledge of knowing. Apparently we all live in a different world then you do.
I know a few people I would consider "great," I guess, and they find these articles amusing. I am judging no one individually -- just providing some guidelines through which one may decide to treat an individual poster with more or less caution, as appropriate. Heck, if Steve Seagal came online anonymously and started describing his credentials and his experience, he'd sound like one heck of a VTG. But I suspect he wouldn't much care if I believed him or not, and when your only contact with someone is on the Internet, it makes no difference.

The folks who are genuine and earnest know that they are, and know that these articles don't apply to them. The friend with whom I train displays a few of the VTG warning signs, himself, until you actually work with him. We had a pretty good laugh over that.

It is good that many like you can live in a safe and secure world.
I'm not sure what I said to give the impression that I live, or even think I live, in a safe and secure world. I'm sure it's within the realm of physical possibility that I could find myself up against twenty armed gang members. I also know I wouldn't walk away telling the world how I'd mopped the pavement with them. I suppose that might be a different world than some folks live in, but not most. I know my limitations and don't try to pretend to be anything I'm not, and anyone else whose skills are much greater probably feels pretty much the same way.

Many of us were not priviledged to live in the same neighborhoods as you and so we gained a lot of street experience and honed our martial skills as we learned.
Hey, great for you.

Many opened martial art schools later so that we could teach the good people in those 'hoods to survive, learn the discipline of the martial arts, and make a better life for themselves and others.
Hey, great for them.

As someone mentioned, how do you measure the wheat from the chaff especially when you can only judge what we say from our words?
A person's words are a pretty good indicator of what they are about, but of course can only guide you. They can't give you a definitive answer in the way that knowing someone personally can. I don't believe I've said anything to contradict that.

I'm sorry that you judge us so quickly by your standards.
Who is "us?" Does that include the people who've posted to say they liked the articles? Why would my judgment bother you at all, even if I was judging you? Nobody appointed me Grand Poobah of Martial Arts Veracity, after all, and I'd turn down the title even if it came with a really cool hat. I'm just a guy with a fast keyboard who'se spent some time in online forums and who's seen a few patterns pop up now and then amongst the forum disruptors. I'll say it again: If this doesn't apply to you, relax and don't worry about it.

My only recommendation is that you look at all stories suspiciously and take what you can use to improve yourself. But again, it's your priviledge. Have a good life and stay safe.
Okay.

[Sharp Phil]

Since I wrote the articles How To Spot a Virtual Tough Guy (http://home.att.net/~philelmore/mafraud.html) and How To Spot a Virtual Sensei (http://home.att.net/~philelmore/virtualsensei.html), I've been fascinated by some of the feedback posted in public discussion forums or sent to me privately. I've also received mail in response to the list of questionable schools, arts, systems, and individuals appended to the article Endless Rivalry (http://home.att.net/~philelmore/mapolitics.html). While most of the feedback has been very positive, the negative responses have all shared certain elements. These elements are characteristic of martial arts defense mechanisms, which are the psychological ploys and logical fallacies used by Virtual Tough Guys (VTGs) and Virtual Senseis (VSs) to shield them from the unease generated by contact with reality.

When criticized or questioned, martial arts frauds will resort to a variety of argumentative tactics that comprise the defense mechanisms. These tactics are easily identifiable, and the following list is by no means inclusive. When you learn to spot a few of these defense mechanisms, however, you will quickly be able to spot others not listed.

BAA, BAA, BAD SHEEP

A VS or VTG often will accuse his or her detractors of being "sheep." Faced with overwhelmingly negative feedback, the fraud in question often feels persecuted and misunderstood. As a result, it is everyone else who is wrong -- and since they comprise such a large group, the critics simply must possess a herd mentality from which they cannot escape. The ridicule the VS or VTG then faces is a result of this groupthink, and he or she may feel smugly insulated from derision. This defense mechanism is normally closely associated with feelings of great superiority. The VS or VTG believes he or she is the subject of scorn for the mere fact of being superior. His or her detractors are thus motivated by jealousy and fear (or by personal discomfort caused by the piercing insights and overwhelming greatness of the Virtual Sensei/Tough Guy).

FREE YOUR MIND

Closely related to the "Baa, Baa, Bad Sheep" defense mechanism, this defense consists of accusing one's detractors of lacking "open minds." To the VS or VTG, it is inconceivable that rational, reasonable people would fail to agree or to defer to his or her superior wisdom and skill. Therefore, any criticism must be the result of closed minds -- minds unwilling or unprepared or unworthy of the great insights offered. (One great response to this defense mechanism is the fact that one really ought not keep an "open mind." Rather, as Rand (http://home.att.net/~philelmore/objectivism.html) said, one should keep an active mind. Not all opinions are equally valid.)

WHO ARE YOU TO CHALLENGE ME?

As I wrote in How To Spot a Virtual Sensei (http://home.att.net/~philelmore/virtualsensei.html), VTGs and VSs are bullies who believe force is the appropriate solution to every disagreement. Part of the psychology behind this attitude is the logically flawed notion that no criticism is valid unless voiced by someone of higher rank or longer experience. When called on their claims or questioned on their opinions, VTGs and VSs often will demand to know the rank, style, and years of experience possessed by the critic. If this information is provided, the VS or VTG will then dismiss the criticism as coming from someone who is his or her "junior" in the arts. This does not invalidate the criticism, of course -- you need not be able to beat someone up, nor need you possess a belt one shade darker, for your opinion to be logically and factually valid -- but in the minds of the VS and VTG it is all the rebuttal necessary. Anyone who has ever attended a commercial McDojo has seen this attitude displayed, too, by the small percentage of students strutting about condescending to those whose belts are at least one shade lighter.

MEET ME

Closely related to the "Who are you to challenge me?" mechanism is the demand for a face-to-face meeting. The VS or VTG is forever demanding that his or her critics either put up or shut up. No one who cannot beat him in the ring may question his wisdom, the VS thinks. No one incapable of kicking her behind on the street may dare inquire regarding the veracity of her claims, the VTG believes. Ultimately, however, this is simply a defense mechanism like any other -- for since most rational people do not go out of their way to get into physical fights with obnoxious online personalities, the VTG or VS can rest assured that he or she will not be taken up on the offer.

I'M VERY SORRY FOR YOU

Some VSs and VTGs will affect an attitude of sorrow on hearing criticism of their claims. "I'm sorry you don't believe me," they will say -- and they will express their heartfelt pity that you will miss out on the chance to associate with greatness if you question the claims of the self-proclaimed grandmasters. Alternatively, many VTGs will tell you that they are glad you've had the good fortune not to grow up on the Mean Streets, fighting off ninja and street gangs and Mafia hordes. They did not have such advantages, however. Thus their tales of their street fighting days may seem fanciful to you, but that's only because you have neither been there, nor done that, nor bought the t-shirt.

POT AND KETTLE

Perhaps the first rule of verbal self-defense, in the absence of legitimate and logically grounded opinion, is to accuse the accuser. Cornered, the VS or VTG will be quick to point out that it is the critic(s) who display(s) the warning signs of martial arts fraudulence.

YOU'RE JUST IMMATURE

While the VS and VTG usually display monumental childishness, they often resort to this tactic in attempting to deflect criticism. Anyone who does not believe them or agree with them must be "immature." Any attempt to expose absurd assertions for what they are is similarly puerile -- for what mature adult would dare question such superior skill and knowledge? Blanket labeling of deserved scorn as "immature" has a preemptive benefit, too, in that any future criticism may be presumed by the VTG or VS to be equally childish in nature.

THAT'S NOT WHAT SO-AND-SO SAYS

Closely linked to the name-dropping warning sign exhibited by Virtual Senseis, this defense mechanism relies heavily on the reputations of acknowledged greats within the martial arts and self-defense industry. When criticized, the VS or VTG loves to mention respected and accomplished personalities with whom he or she has worked (however briefly), particularly if some claim to training lineage can be established. If those big names ever had anything positive to say about the suspected fraud you are now questioning, you can bet you'll hear about it in great detail (and repeatedly). Thus, criticism of the VS/VTG can be (falsely) shunted to criticism of the respected personality -- something the critic never intended and something easily dismissed on the basis of reputation alone.

...continued below...

[Sharp Phil]

...continued from above...

THINK OF THE CHILDREN

Many VSs and VTGs may become -- suddenly and ardently -- very concerned with what relatively new students in the Arts may think in reading criticism directed at the suspected frauds in question. Why, all this negativity turns off the newbies, they'll say. What's worse, they'll tell you, is that any attempt to identify and expose martial arts fraudulence may prompt those with less experience to dismiss legitimate teachers and fellow seekers of budo, when in fact those legitimate individuals could have much to offer. This, the VS and VTG will argue, is unthinkable. (Quite often, this same defense mechanism will be made as an argument by earnest discussion participants who believe very strongly in maintaining a positive attitude. There's nothing wrong with wanting things to stay positive, but in avoiding negative ideas when such negativity is warranted, these well-meaning individuals run the risk of allowing the frauds to do more harm. It is better to err on the side of caution.)

SAY WHAT?

It is very important to the average VS or VTG that he or she project the illusion of great wisdom. Often this is accomplished by being cryptic for its own sake. When others cannot understand you -- or when you decide that individual words have no meaning -- then anything and everything one says can be considered profound. A Virtual Sensei/Tough Guy can use this trait as a defense mechanism by meeting criticism with more impenetrable pseudo-wisdom. Those who respond to say the rebuttal is meaningless will be met with the smug proclamation that they simply do not understand. "Say what?" is thus a very versatile and self-perpetuating character trait that both identifies and defends martial arts frauds.

GENERAL FALLACIES

Because what they say and do is generally not supportable by logic, VSs and VTGs display any number of formal logical fallacies in their reasoning. Some of the defense mechanisms I've listed here are obviously interpretations of these, such as the Appeal to Authority (in the case of name-dropping) or the implied argumentum ad hominem typical of dismissing criticism from those of lesser rank. Other popular fallacies include the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, in which the VTG or VS asserts that no true student of the arts would dare disagree. Then there is the non sequitur, frequently used in conjunction with the "Say What?" defense. A Web search for the term logical fallacies will turn up a number of lists and definitions, and I encourage all readers to familiarize themselves with these.

Not included in these profiles is the most common defense mechanism of all: profanity. A vulgar tirade is neither an argument nor a defense mechanism explicitly, but it can form some measure of defense by providing the VTG or VS with an outlet to vent his or her frustration and distress. Those who resort to coarse temper tantrums should be immediately suspect, for mature, rational, earnest students of the martial arts rarely lose their composure in this fashion.

CONCLUSION

Virtual Tough Guys and Virtual Senseis live in worlds of fantasy guarded by walls of delusion. When you question or otherwise criticize people like this, you are threatening the ways in which they view the world -- and in turn threatening how they view themselves. This would make anyone uncomfortable, for we all have pictures of who we are and we respond negatively to seeing those pictures challenged. Skilled at defending their ultimately unsupportable but endlessly sustainable fantasies, Virtual Tough Guys and Virtual Senseis often are quite adept at meeting these challenges. Understanding the defense mechanisms they use will help you dodge the obstacles they place in your path -- and propel you that much further towards honest understanding in the martial arts.

[Gabriel]

Phil. You put way to much thought into this whole thing. It must have taken you a while to write that. From the short time I've been online, it has been easy to spot a fake. So why all the theory and postulation? Obviously, I take every bit of information I imbibe, whether it be from the internet, books, science, TCM, movie, friend, foe, celebrity, or parents with a certain degree of salt. After all, every tidbit of information out there is accumulated and gathered through human perception, and people aren't perfect. I don't really think its fair to categorize people into certain subsets. good and bad, liar and saint, skilled and unskilled. Things aren't that black and white. The world is a shade of greys my friend, and the more you try to jam people into little cookie cutter conceptions in your mind, in my opinion, the ****her you will be from the truth of things.

Regards

Gabriel

[Sharp Phil]

Perceptions vary. It always fascinates me when people accuse others of thinking too much. ;)

[Gabriel]

Indeed. Similarly, it constantly intrigues me when an individual believes "it" doesn't stink. ;)

[Sharp Phil]

Not everyone will share your keen insight into these matters, Gabriel. The profiling guides are intended for those who need assistance in directing the appropriate level of scrutiny in the semi-anonymous online world.

[Okami]

That is classic!

Reminds me of when this nutcase came into our school claiming to have been taught by some "ninja master" who was working at a resturant somewhere.

The guy dropped into the nastiest, entirely too low backstance and proceded to get his butt stomped during the sparring session he insisted on.