Would You Kill Someone If Your Life or a Loved Ones Life is at stake

[FIRE HAWK]

You are in a parking lot and a thug jumps out with a knife,and stabbs your wife or yourself.Would you kill that thug if you had no choice.

[Brian_CA]

Good Question.

Hard to answer...

I would like to think that skill would enable to not have to kill. After all that what the training is for right? But real life is so different. rules can become for keeps. Simple survival. What choice to make? Life in danger, mate and children in danger. I will be honest, I am not sure how to answer you question. I would like to think about it for a long while.

Brian

San Francisco, CA

[joedoe]

I once thought that the answer was simple - yes. I then had an experience where my mother asked me to kill some crabs we were going to eat for dinner. When I went to kill the crabs, I had a very hard time of it because I was thinking "I'm about to extinguish a life".

After that I realised that I would have a far harder time actually killing a person, even in self defence.

Ultimately though, I think I would do whatever had to be done to protect myself and my loved ones. Hopefully, that doesn't mean I'd have to kill someone.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[meltdawn]

Yes.

Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[doug maverick]

ah lets think first you kill him you wait for the cops they find out your a martial artist and your hands are by law considered a deadly weapon your going to jail, there was a lawyer/martial artist who wrote a book on somthing like this, now if there was more then one thug then if one dies it's defferent.

[KrAzy FiLiPino]

Why would you get arrested? He was the one with the knife trying to take my life or my wife's. I thought the law allowed you to defend yourself with equal amount of force as the other person was using on you? As to the original post, I would try to incapacitate him but if I had no other alternative I would kill him.

Peace

Daryl

[fiercest tiger]

i do beleive there is cream for those crabs?

yes taking a life is easy although i can be traumatising for people if they have. even a normal fight i would go for the kill!!! there is no mucking around when your life is in danger.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[tnwingtsun]

Without any hesitation,without any thought or remorse,if the attacker had stabbed my wife or
my ex-wife,that is an attack on my children,
the same mind-set goes for me,if I am attacked
not only are they attacking me there is a
chance I may be maimed or killed,thus my attackers
taking away from my children,I have been in real
life situations where my attacker
started to get the advantage,the thoughts
of me perishing and my children living without
me because I've been attacked turned me into
a wolverine on crack,I've never fought so hard and
effective in my life,nothing could stop me,it was a sub conscious flash of survival that put a
"Tiger in my tank"
I could write chapters on this,the military
trained me to use the best weapon I had
both in offensive and defensive tactics.
That best weapon I had wasn't my rifle or
the radio which I could call on all sorts
of death and destruction on my
enemy,my best weapon is my mind,you have to cultivate your response with what motivates
you in life.

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-31-01 at 03:39 PM.]

[Ben Gash]

Yes. Sure it it would be distressing afterwards, but not half as bad as being stabbed, or having to watch your loved ones stabbed.
On the legal front, you'd be OK as long as you didn't disarm him or restrain him before killing him.
Think about it, if you live in America then you could legally shoot the guy!

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[tnwingtsun]

Yes,in America we can legally use deadly
force in a situation where you are in danger of bodily harm,and I am all for that,my ex-wife
called me and wanted me to take her out to the range so she could feel confident if the need ever arises,before we ever gotto the range there are several things she must drill herself
both in her mind and body before understanding
the use of a firearm,anyone can shoot a gun and hit a paper target.
I don't want this to turn into a pro gun vs. anti gun debate.
but you would want the max. protection for
your loved ones if the situation should
ever accure.
Let me address this horse sh_t about
your hands being deadly weapons(not you Ben,the person that brought it up),this is a WWW,hence laws will differ from country to country and in the USA from state to state.
If I was Bruce Lee and hit you I could be charged
with simple assult.
If I was Richard Simons and hit you with
a VHS tape of sweating to the oldies
I could be charged with agravatied assult,which would be a fedral offence.
Go figure
:rolleyes:

[meltdawn]

My state has CCP laws. I wouldn't think of picking up a weapon nor recommending a friend do so if I felt that hesitation or unfamiliarity would prevent it's full use in a threatened situation.

Being the gender and weight class that I am, assault on my person is more predisposed than any other group - as is my acquittal of use of deadly force after such an event.

I feel it is personally neccessary to have every weapon legally available to me and the training to know how to use them. So should every person on this board. Martial arts are still legal in the US. We must fight to keep it that way.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[Quan]

Im sure it is never an easy thing to take another life.
having said that I would kill the attacker, in this senario or die trying. In az the law states that you have to be in eminent danger of death or bodily harm to use deadly force.
this senerio is a clasic example of that. as for being armed i belive strongly in what richard marcinko calls the rule of the seven p's, proper previous planning prevents p!ss pore performance. that means mentaly and physically you have to be prepaired for the worst case senario. we live in a violent society, even the most skilled of fighters from any age wouldn't walk around un armed, when every one around them is. musashi felt it was bad not to use every weapon available to him in a fight. thus his two sword style.

[joedoe]

FT: You're the sick ******* now :)

Everyone else:

Yeah, I guess I'd have to agree. I think if it came down to them dying, or myself or loved ones dying, then I would probably kill them and deal with the consequences later.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[Brian_CA]

Do you really think you all could take a life?

think had about it.

This is something you can NEVER TAKE BACK.

If you kill, have not you basically forgotten the basic belief of yor training?

Kung fu only for defense. Not for hurting or ego. Only for helping others, not harm or hurting.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[joedoe]

Brian, the point is that in a life or death situation, I'd rather they died than I died. Otherwise my training is for naught.

Of course I would rather not kill. Having that on my conscience would torture me for the rest of my life. But if it were a choice of them dying, or myself or a loved one dying, I would kill to ensure the safety of myself or a loved one.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[fiercest tiger]

abandit is right, hit 1st ask questions later.

its beyond my beliefs to kill someone, but i think i could kill some stranger more than to kill my pet. is that weird??

i could kill a human before a animal just put it that way then. :rolleyes:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Black Jack]

I would not even need to think about it. The other guy would be put down like a mad dog.

It makes me a little sad to see that some people here don't take there lives that seriously where they would have to think about this situation and then decide on its outcome.

If someone was attempting to kill me or injury my loved one's I would remove them from the planet so fast the actions would be second nature.

If I can get out of the situation without having to cross that line then that would be for the best but I would never think about the other man's safety for a second and if he ends up a corpse then that is where the cards fell/

Better them then me.

Regards

[doug maverick]

okay i see where your coming from but still the fact remains you are a martial artist you are considered a deadly weapon and you are not to kill him but hurt or restrain him why cause your a martial artist ask any cop on the street they'll tell you my pops a cop and he told me the same thing unless there is more then one attacker a martial artist or boxer or wrestler is not allowed to kill an opponent. sucks doesn't it. he also told me you can get away with it if got a good lawyer.

[KrAzy FiLiPino]

So it doesn't matter that a guy with a weapon is trying to kill you?? You can't kill him defending yourself unless there's two or more of them??!! I don't think so. I'd rather be "tried by twelve than carried by six."

Peace

Daryl

[Black Jack]

Peacemaker I hope you wise up as what you stated shows you have very little knowledge of the law and of fighting in general.

Are you 13 or 14 or something?

Go hug a tree.

Regards

[joedoe]

If someone is going to try and kill me, surely the law is not going to say that I cannot use deadly force to stop them. That would be just unreasonable.

If that is the case, then it really is a f*cked up world we live in, were the criminal has more rights than the victim.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[Buby]

I would kill him as fast as I could. When it comes down to a fight I would not waste any time. One never knows how far your opponent is willing to take it. I figure better safe than sorry. If he's knocked out or dead he can't do my family or me jack.

FT - I would also have a harder time killing an animal then a human. Animals don't go out looking for problems, but humans do.

[WongFeHung]

in a heartbeat.

[passingthru]

I read quickly thru the responses after I had formulated my own. I liked meltdown's Musashi quote. And, Quan's "eminent danger" statement was timely.

I have a couple of things to say.
1. just because you've studied some martial arts, and maybe ain't half bad, doesn't make you a lethal weapon. You're not a professional boxer. Give it a rest. And, remember, you're being attacked here, possibly a defenseless loved one too. This isn't some brawl.
2. yes, the laws do differ from place to place. However, I would think that attack on my person, with intent to maim or kill, and my having no escape route adequate or available, would yield a decision of justifiable homicide on my behalf. And, especially if the person had a weapon.
3. Brian, no one, well, most, don't go into Kung Fu with intent to do mortal damage at the first available opportunity. But, defense does have an active offense side. One can't keep on running forever, and if you think the opponent, especially one who wants to take your life, is going to get tired before you do, think again. In fact, the best Kung Fu teachers will teach that the defensive moves also contain within them an offense solution. The degree to which this goes is up to you and depends on the situation. Sometimes defense means taking a life, without hesitation, because that is the only way. Indeed, I was told by one Kung Fu master that sometimes there is no choice, and that one needs to accept that.
Brian, you're kidding yourself. Okay. The higher up one goes on the ladder, the more ways one learns to defend. But, the degree to which you go depends on the intent of the opponent, and the ability of the opponent too. Sure, if you're a high level master and are in an altercation with someone of less ability, there are plenty of resources you can call upon to discourage, disable, or otherwise distract your opponent, while you walk away and get help for him. How about a challenge, or some personal feud between two evenly matched masters. You think none of these guys ever kill each other? I know your heart is in the right place, and you sound very nice. We're not talking about nice things here. It's the reality of the world.

As for me, yes. I would.
I concentrate on what a person's intent is. If it is simply to bully, I'll block and push, not even think of doing injury, unless there is an escallation. I'm talking about a situation in which the person is out to humiliate rather than actually injure me. Being female and 5'2" tall, this is something I have encountered. I know we're not talking about this, but we have to start somewhere in terms of how one comes to the conclusion that taking a life is necessary. You have to be sure of yourself, of your emotional reactions to different kinds of aggression from others. There can be no question in your heart that your life was on the line. Even trained law enforcement officers can go thru hell after having to use lethal force on some drugged up nut, or on people who would kill for money, anything for money or power, or worse.

The important word is INTENT. The opponent's intent. My intent. We will assume that my intent is purely to defend myself and loved ones (or strangers) from an armed or unarmed opponent. My defense intent has two levels. One is to discourage or push away, but not harm; the other is to do whatever is necessary to preserve my health and life, or than of another, including death of the opponent. Part of martial arts training should include judgement of intent. That can be verbal (the person says flat out that your life is one the line), body language, presence of a weapon, expression, sensing energy. There are also the physical comparisons (Do I have basically one chance against this giant, or I lose?). These judgment calls can be made very fast. You can train yourself to do them. Whether help can be gotten or the scene departed is another. I think we have all heard the horror stories of people screaming for help and so on.
peace
passingthru

[Quan]

well said passingthru.
A great refrence to this kind of discussion, Is a book called "In the gravest extreme" by Massad Ayoob. He is a police officer and a national self defence and firearm instructor. He has a martial arts background and approaches the gun from that basis. If anyone has the chance I strongly sugjest you read it. It has great information on the use of deadly force. I keep it as a reference the same as I do sun tsu and mushasi

p.s. i don't have any desire to kill bambi eather but don't mess with my family
Quan

[passingthru]

Thank you for the feedback, and the reference. I'm interested in looking at this book.

passingthru

[doug maverick]

i'm 17 i was raised in the bronx so knowing how to fight was a must and was a every other day thing in the south bronx more importantly cause i was raised 2 blocks up from the projects and use to fights with them all the and never losed well...almost never. also my dads a cop who just made detective so yes i do know the law and i know how to fight so relax i'm just telling how the'll treat oh and don't be black cause you might end up dead buddy, but thats another story. so don't tell me i don't know what i'm talking about cause if you need to kill to defend your self you need start going to class more. to learn self control.
i didn't make these laws so don't kill the messenger oh and it's called involentary man slaughter

[Ben Gash]

Peacemaker, yet again, if he had a knife, you could legally shoot him! You are being threatened with deadly force. If you got into a fight in a bar with an unarmed man and instantly slammed a Chop Choy into his throat, THEN it would be manslaughter, if not murder.
However, I would advise making sure you know where the knife is afterwards, or you have decent witnesses. A friend of mine was attacked when he was on his own and the other guy had a group of friends. He dropped him with one punch which smashed half his face in, and the guys friends all swore blind that my friend had just walked up and hit him. Hey presto, in court charged with assault with a deadly weapon (this is perhaps the more worrying aspect, as a couple of years ago it would just have been assault, black belt or no).
Anyway, short women aren't the most attacked group, young men are.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[Quan]

I don't know about where you are.
But in AZ and many other parts of the country, we have what's called the 21 foot rule. Basicly it states that a police officer or legally armed citezen can shoot an atacker, advancing on you with a knife if he is within 21 feet (by the way an avarage man can cover that distance and kill you with a knife in about a second and a half)I will try to look it up and post it verbatem if I get a chance

train hard
Quan

[FIRE HAWK]

I guess sense alot of other people have answered my question i should answer it to.Yes i would kill the thug or attacker.

[doug maverick]

okay you all ar murderers were past that part what i want to know is would you call the cops or beat a hasty retreat? well let me tell you my answer i'll agree i would kill the attacker if he attacked my family but not if he attacked me also i wouldn't stay aroung and wait for the cops i run faster then a black man running from the cops.

[sbarbe]

Like almost everyone else here, I would choose not to kill someone if possible. However, in a real assault situation, you do not have the luxury of time to think. I would attempt to cripple my opponent or kill him, whichever was the quickest way to resolve the situation. In my opinion, people should be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions. Thus, if you attack me with intent to cause me serious harm or death, you have implicitly accepted the consequence that I might cripple or kill you instead. I would feel bad about not being skillful enough to resolve the situation without resorting to such extreme tactics, but I honestly don't think I would regret harming the person. They made the choice to be in that situation, not me.