did kung fu masters 50 years ago spar?

[wiz cool c]

I heard somewhere that sparining is a new thing in kung fu maybe 40 or 50 years old or something. That in the past they only did partner routines. I was watching a Frank Yee tape yesterday and woundering if this master spared when he was learning kung fu.

[Stacey]

They faught constantly.

Praying Mantis boxing was created after Wong Long got his ass handed to him by a shoalin monk.


The difference is that they didnt' spar right off the bat. The trained movement and techniques, them had something to fight with.

Whatever you heard was bull. Tai chi guys were fighting ba gua masters in the imperial palace. Bodyguards and bouncers were always testing it out and practicing forms to make themselves better fighters. Nothing is new.

NHB is very traditional with kung fu. It is the only consitant thing in chinese martial arts, it is the oldest. It is the heartbeat of kung fu. Without combat, kung fu is just a wax museum or warriors.


back in Taiwan/Hong Kong 50 years ago, you could challenge a kung fu guy and if he refused, you could simply attack. The courts more or less overlooked it. People didn't rat each other out either. Bare knuckle. Not that bare knuckle is any more dangerous than gloves, its less actually. Thats why boxers in the 1800 fought for 100 plus rounds.

Now if you do that, you go to jail.

[Royal Dragon]

Can't tell you for sure, but I read somewhere that they used to wrap thier hands and feet on cloth and practice free fighting. It makes sense to me, as often wile training free fighting just happens. It's human nature, and that has been constant since long before the martial arts were anything more than Caveasaurus Combat (TM).

[wiz cool c]

I have heard of these challenge matches, but was sparring a regular part of kung fu training 40 or 50 years ago? If it was what was it like?

[Xebsball]

Yeah they did spar/fight dude.
Probably either with very few gear or none at all.

Not sparring is the new thing, its comes from the watering down.
Also remember that there are different levels of sparring.

[LEGEND]

Bruce Lee had footage of HK street fights between CMA guys...they sparred full contact bare knuckle and often peeps got knock down and swept! Check out the JOHN LITTLE GAME OF DEATH video and u'll see 30 secs of b/w HK footage.

[CrushingFist]

it's called san da, meaning free fighting. san da today is not FREE FIGHTING, it's restricted.

if your question is did kung fu masters put on pads gloves and mouthguards, the answer is no. but free fighting is very popular, and of course there were challenge matches as well.

but they did not have it in tournaments like they do today, it was just a training method, free fighting.

with KF moving to HK, some schools stopped doing so much free fighting, some didn't even teach it. some schools only worked on techniques and they would drill a lot. Meaning you would not actually fight until you were challenged or jumped or whatever the case may be.

[NorthernMantis]

Of course they did. Anyone who can tell you that you can fight without sarring or experience isn't telling the truth.

Legend-

Wow, I'm surprised. With you being a submission fighter and all I thought you would have an anti-cma post (with all trolls spouting off they're mouths i had gotten the wrong impreesion that a lot of mma were like that). I really need to stop judging people wrongly. Sorry abou that.:(

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Stacey


Praying Mantis boxing was created after Wong Long got his ass handed to him by a shoalin monk.

lol it's so true. Sparring or fighting was the way of trial and error. Not only that, during that time there was no such thing as a ranking system unless you were in the military or an imperial guard. Either you were good or you were not. Many people always say well if there is no ranking system how do you know if the person is good? Well if the person get's his but served to him in a silver platter he'll know.

[Merryprankster]

Heck yeah!

They didn't get that good by being forms collectors.

The problem with MOST "TMA," schools is, that when it comes to kicking the snot out of each other, they aren't Traditional enough!!!

[Stacey]

no but they did practice their forms..

[PaulLin]

There are differences among External artists and Internal artists. All of the high External masters has been through countless real fights. On the other hand, Internal masters are more pickier about fight, and fight much less thand the External masters. The most intensive numbers of fights are among the lower and med. level. When reached high level, they fight less (but they still must get through the low and med level fights). Some Interanl masters are exceptional, they fight rarely and with a few astonising fight results. And yet, all the people who bluff themselves as high masters but never had any real fights are very questionable.

Well, that is why not only the higher level artists should be involved in contests, I think also visiting other schools for experiences as well, like Karate, TKD, Judo, Taiboxing and other different stylists, They reacts different than the CMAs.

[CrushingFist]

NorthernMantis, you mention that sparring or fighting is a method of trial and error.

As i said, some HK schools did NOT spar, instead they worked constantly on drills and 2 man forms, but they did not actually spar, the students would simply wait until they had to fight in the street to see if their drills would work. and yah a lotta them got their asses beat down, some of them won...but like you said, it's a process of trial and error.

one example of that comes from one of the articles in kung fu magazine, the one with lam chun fai on the cover. One of the masters being interviewed mentions that they never sparred, and they'd hav to wait for challenge matches or street fights.

i can think of a few other places that didn't spar either.

I don't agree with it being the best way to train fighters, but that is what SOME schools did.

[yu shan]

There are still challenges going on in Main-land China and Taiwan.

[PaulLin]

I need to add on more. Most high masters in the 50's must go through like 7 to 15 years of drilling on foundations, forms, 2 man forms, before they go out and use their skills. Even though they go out and testing the skills, they will focus on the arts themselves as what to gain in the knowledge and experiences.

There are many masters who fight for winning, I don't consider them as in high level of mastery. Since their heart and mind is not in the arts but only fames and positons. So the fight and fight are not all the same depends on the motive of the fight.

[HuangKaiVun]

Nobody really knows if the Wong Long-Shaolin Monk theory is really true - or if Wong Long even really existed.

But the "original" Mantis style does work effectively in combat.


In many of the REALLY OLD forms of kung fu (e.g. old school Bajimen, Pigua, Seng Men, Tongbei, etc . . .) the forms were deliberately kept small in volume because it was expected that only a few moves would be used in real combat.

After a brief initial period of set training, it was expected that a student would spar regularly with teachers and other students. My teacher sparred with me regularly early in my training, he sparred regularly with his teacher, and his teacher occasionally fought VICIOUS challenge matches in Henan.

And the notion that internal and external fighters have different fight resumes is not true. Park Bok Nam's master Lui Shiu Tien fought regularly as a Bagua stylist. Wan Lai Shen, master of the internal art Tzuranmen, was repeatedly challenged throughout his career. My own sifu's sifu practices the internal Seng Men art and has fought really vicious challenge matches in China.

Of course, most of the combat-oriented masters I've known don't really get into the "internal vs. external" debate. They just FIGHT.


I'll say this - if one doesn't fight to WIN, he might as well not fight AT ALL.

The whole point of learning how to fight is to DEFEAT ONE'S OPPONENT.

There's no moral victory in getting beaten down repeatedly.

[TenTigers]

traditionally, sparring as you know it-meaning punch/kick was downplayed in favor of two man sets, reaction drills extracted from the sets, sensitivity drills, etc. Drills start off cooperative and then pick up pace in speed and intensity. Kick/punch is only a small part of the equation and is practiced for timing and stamina and intestinal fortitude-adrenal stress, etc. When they fought, they fought for real. period. Check out iinterviews with old Okinawan, and Japanese karate masters-I mean the old guys, not americans who studied a little overseas and became "masters", these guys trained, trained, trained, and never sparred. Their art was not for sport, but for self-defense only. When they fought, they fought for real, no quarter, no rules, no trophy. These guys, these arts would never had survived one generation, let alone countless generations if they had deteriorated into sport fighting. Oh, and btw, Frank Yee made his reputaion as a fighter first, before ever opening up a school. He was a Hung Gwun for the An Leong Tong when he first came to the USA. What he chooses to show YOU, and the general public on a video, and what he has, are worlds apart.-Nuff said.

[Kristoffer]

Did they spar 50 years ago? You can count on it! My sifu once mentioned to a student with a long pony tail that he preferably wanted him to shave his head. He said that back when he trained under Chang Tung Sheng, if anyone had long hair no one would mention it. Then when started training, u would "Grab the tail and rip his head into a throw" That's not hardcore? I think that's pretty violent :) .And about the challenges..

This is not something that only happened back in old. I know of at least three challenges that happened to my Kwoon. The first was when my sifu were new in this country and different artist challenged him just to see what he was about. He took them all out, injuring all of them. But this story is a bit fuzzy coz I never really listened to the details (so sleepy at the time) But Sifu has told about freestyle fights he entered when he was young. Didn't sound like fun...

Another that is infact true, but not that funny.
When my organisation were to open up a new kwoon at a very country like town. A small town that was dominated by a Karate dojo. Their sensei went furious because he didn't wanna lose students. So he openly challenged the instructor from my school. Since he was a bit unsure about the situation he called my sifu for advice and he sent one of his best students to take up the challenge.
I'm not gonna get into any details but I can tell u that it was a quite bloody fight. 'Our' man won, but I think he was convicted to jail for 'brutality' crimes or whatever u call it in english. I wouldn't wanna be that Karate sensei tough... :eek:
(this is not someting that my sifu has ever talked about, but I've been told by various people. Most that train at my school but also from a relative who is a policeman)

[PaulLin]

HuangKaiVun,

Idealy, Internal arts want to avoid fight in the first place, the fighting is only a tool to avoid the future fight.

External arts focus on winning more, less on avoiding fights.

Sure there is many master out there train in the Internal techniqures and don't really follow the Internal philosophy. I think this is the kind of masters that you have experienced with.

My father has a White Crane teacher, Tsi TenTu, in Taiwan, Taipei. The story happed long time ago. One of ShuaiChiao GM Chang Tung Shen's student, a friend of my father, a kind of buffy guy in good strength, walk with my father in the park one day. They both come up to the place where Tsi practiced. Tsi is a smaller build with a structure hump a little like a bird in winter, not like any famous CMA master image at all. My father know Tsi is very good master and told his friend about it. Well, my father's friend didn't get it, he speaked loudly in front of every one around: What is this? This guy has nothing, just look at him!

My father told him to shout up, GM Tsi replied to my father: It's no difference, no difference. Tsi is a very good example of ideal Internal attitude.

The rest of story, well, the unwise friend of my father went up and challenge Tsi, in another day. Tsi refused to fight with that kind of reason. But he reached out and try to apply a ShaiChiao grib on Tsi( fool move any way, in ShaiChiao, this will be a gift move to your opponent). Tsi used a Earth hand in White Cran, suck him in and spit the strike into his lower waist. Poor fool stepped about 3 step out, and kneel down, can't stood up. That injur lasted for months and he though he is goona die. He said the pain "jumped" like mad. Tsi give some Chinese herbs to him through my father, but not help much. He told GM Chang and hope GM Chang would show GM Tai the real ShuaiChaio. GM Chang didn't involve with his foolish act.

GM Chang, in back in China, has a stroy of tossing out about 20 White Crane practioners in FuJian Provadence. It says some fall into pits and some hanged up on tree. I am not sure about the story in detail, the old 2 students of GM Chang(who came to Taiwan with him) knows better, and they still in Taiwan, I saw their pictures on the GM Chang's grand son's website.

[DF]

I really try to stay away from the KFO posting but since my sifu name was mentioned a couple of times, I just want to add a few comments.
Yes, the Tang Fong/Yuen Ling line does spar full contact nowaday and back in the days of Hong Kong. The differences is nowaday we take advantage of some protective equipments ( mouth piece and cups). During the days in Hong Kong, all sparing was done in full contact without equipments. Keep in mind that injuries were very comman but expected. However, sifus in those days were excellent doctors as well, after the students were injury, they will recieve treatment immediately and the ones that were not hurt will get to learn how to treat all different type of injuries. This was hand on experiance in the medicine side of kung fu. I cannot speak for other schools but in the Yuen Lin line, full contact training and medical training are taught hand on at the same time.

DF

[HuangKaiVun]

Clearly you have not been exposed to the really old "internal" arts like old school Hsing Yi or Seng Men, Paul Lin.

These arts occasionally called themselves "internal" but were very very vicious and aggressive. Seng Men in particular from Henan Province is STILL known as a brutal and aggressive style. And forget not Guo Yunshen, who practices your Hsing Yi style.

When it comes down to it, "internal" and "external" are poor ways of explaining away martial arts and the stylists that practice them. Many of the great "internal" stylists can be very aggressive fighters - including Tsi Ten Tu as you aptly noted. Or how about Chen Fa Ke, who'd fight at the drop of a hat? And how are you going to explain how Wang Zhiping, master of "external" Chaquan and former chairman of China's kung fu board, was a nice and gentle man to the end of his days?

You know not about kung fu lineages other than your own, PaulLin. We do not fit your stereotypes and never will.

[Kristoffer]

stereotypes never give justice to the truth, not fully anyway..

[wiz cool c]

DF is Tang Fong is that Frank Yees lineage?

[Joker]

ATT: HungKaiVin

i agree with some of your arguement but not all.

"I'll say this - if one doesn't fight to WIN, he might as well not fight AT ALL."

Winning is just a state of mind and an ego trip. Don't believe in gloating, just getting the job done and getting the hell outa there before someone else decides to join in!

"The whole point of learning how to fight is to DEFEAT ONE'S OPPONENT."

There are many many ways to skin a cat without cutting off its head. Some people like to talk and others will just fight. You dont always have to slap them into gear.

"There's no moral victory in getting beaten down repeatedly."

I definiately agree here as see no need to turn the other cheek but would like the odds in my favour! I would not fight if not warranted and believe this will stop any further altercations.

This is my opinion only so don't take it the wrong way, I just think beating the crap out of someone is not the answer!

Avagood1

[scotty1]

"full contact training and medical training are taught hand on at the same time. "

That is a very good idea.

[red5angel]

50 years ago 'rooftop' fighting was notorious in Hong Kong. Some of these guys often fought in alleyways and on rooftops of resteraunts and schools etc..... It was quite common, although I am sure most of them werent masters....

[NorthernMantis]

I have to agree with Huang Kai Vun, Paul Lin, as my sifu is married to an internal master and I have been expeosed to internal arts many times.

However many people seem to misunderstand the internal and external concept. No kung fu style is too internal or external. Look at shaolin and tai chi. At the begining shaolin looks like external but as you advance it get's more internal. Tai chi is the same way but opposite. At the beginnig it feels very internal but the more advanced parts of the style have a little external. No style can be too external or internal or it can lead to defeat.

To make it clearer a real good example is the yin and yang symbol itself. If you look at it you can see that even the dark has a white spot and the white part has a dark spot. That means you cannot be 100% soft or hard. If you think about it it makes sense. A taiji person can't hit softly or it wont do any damage and a hung gar exponent cannot be stiff or the power wont translate well.

I shake my head every time I hear somone say this kung fu style is too internal or external, since at some degree each style will have both. The only differnece is that it will tend to lean more to one side that's all.

[DF]

yes, Tang Fong- Yuen Lin- Frank Yee

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Clearly you have not been exposed to the really old "internal" arts like old school Hsing Yi or Seng Men, Paul Lin.

(well, I am not that old in age, they died before I grown up any ways, what I have learned is form my father.)

These arts occasionally called themselves "internal" but were very very vicious and aggressive. Seng Men in particular from Henan Province is STILL known as a brutal and aggressive style. And forget not Guo Yunshen, who practices your Hsing Yi style.

(Gou is very famous for his "ban bu bun chuan", the wood element of Hsing Yi, and yet, he don't fight for winning, he fight to improve his arts. My granmaster's teacher--Zhang Zhao Dong, or Zhang Zhan Kui, is the youngest kungfu brother of Guo. Zhang was famouse for his "pi", the metal element of Hsing Yi. There is a story about how a Hsing Yi master--Li Tsuan Yi, faced off with ShiaoLin style--Yang Hung Xiou, and ShuaiChaio style--Zhang Feng Yen, there is no winning or lossing as that important as incompare with improving arts, but the others who passed the story around, like to specially emphasising on who win and who loose. Li lost both fight, but it is not because his art is not good enough, it is because Li was famouse for his BunChuan too, Yang and Zhang both aware of that before the fight, and Li has no idea of what they are going to do.)

When it comes down to it, "internal" and "external" are poor ways of explaining away martial arts and the stylists that practice them. Many of the great "internal" stylists can be very aggressive fighters - including Tsi Ten Tu as you aptly noted. Or how about Chen Fa Ke, who'd fight at the drop of a hat? And how are you going to explain how Wang Zhiping, master of "external" Chaquan and former chairman of China's kung fu board, was a nice and gentle man to the end of his days?

(I wouldn't say that is a poor way, just an ideal way. If we don't see them that way, soon the internal arts will be extinct, only external will left. If you asking yourself that how many % you can complete in according to your original expectation? Most people cannot complete near 90%. If you don't set the ideal goal that is the highest possible, you will achieve even less. Let's say you aim at 100%, and you can only complete about 70% of that, the result of what you have is 70%. But if you set you aim at only 70%, then the final result will be about little bit more than 50% since you can't really complete all that you set for. The ideal way of Internal that I mention is to eliminate the Qi barrier. As for on bit of rejection in your mind will make you reject on bit of Qi, rather than harmonizing with it. To constantly thinking of fight and win will make rejective minds. And you are worry that to think like this way, one may lost the ability to defend themselves rather. I think there is a trade off when you let go of more about fighting to win, focus more on understanding your opponent instead. The best way of understanding is to sincerely be the others to know them, and the harmonized way is the most efficient. That is also Suntze's art of war value the most. That will have not noly better chance to win a fight, but also avoiding a fight.)
(Wang TzePing has learned more than just one style. For I known, form GM Chang's words to my father, he known ShuaiChiao too. And yet, GM Chang himself is known for ShuaiChiao, an external art, but his internal strength is incredible. None of his student knows the secrete and none can be the same as what he can do. My father has seen some wired things GM Chang did and recognized that as a form of Qi kung, but he never taught them. GM Chang said he has ChaChuan, LuHanChuan, Taichi, and ShuaiChiao. My father has BaGua, Hsing Yi, Taichi, and KunLun on the Qi side. I am pretty sure Wang practiced more than just ChaChuan, like GM Chang, he was just famouse for that.) (GM Chang called Wang a nick name: Deadly Grib Wang)

You know not about kung fu lineages other than your own, PaulLin. We do not fit your stereotypes and never will. (I don't know other lineages that is true, I can't have that much times nor energy to cover all those sides, that is why I think neither you nor other people can do that on all sides of CMA. I would like to see all of us working together and not let the real CMA died away and only the watered-down left to soar the world. I am only giving my knowledge to any one who can find use of them, I have not intend to make any one to fit it, if I have given that kind of idea to you, sorry, I don't intend to do that, and never will. I will only try to provide tools, if you find use, take them, if you don't, leave them.)

[Jimbo]

Of course kung fu masters did san da and fighting much, much longer than just 50 years ago. People nowadays like to delude themselves and think sparring only originated in the 1960's in America, but that is very wrong.

Take for example the belief that "traditional" Japanese karate men only did their kata and maybe some no-contact sparring before the '60s. Wrong. There were Japanese and Okinawan karate men already experimenting in the 1920's with body and head pads and going very much full-contact. Many of the Japanese drafted into the Imperial Army were karate-trained, which included bare-knuckle, full-contact fighting of a brutal nature that would be shocking today. Not that they were any better technically; but back then people were generally tougher, and you are talking about men getting ready to die in battlefield combat.

In CMA, mostly the sparring did not begin immediately, but great emphasis was placed on mastering the basics and working on the principles. Forms too, but they were usually taught much more slowly, and tended to not be "pretty" of flashy as today's performers. Sometimes they would work on just one or two key movements for a long time until it was mastered and could be used in a number of ways.

Some people will say that because of the old film of the Crane guy vs. the Taiji guy, that none of them knew how to fight. Well, people back then were not all the same, either.
Jim

[HuangKaiVun]

I think I'll LEAVE THEM, then.

Something you do not yet realize is that the styles you mentioned have both internal and external characteristics - complete with exercises that highlight both aspects. Ask your father about iron body exercises in traditional Taijiquan training.

My advice is that you go much further in your training before trumping the merits of internal over external. One side of the coin may be preferable to you over the other, but it's STILL THE SAME COIN. By criticizing the external aspects of an art, you criticize YOURSELF.

And as far as wanting harmony, that's not always possible. When somebody comes for you or your family wishing to do damage, the "harmonized way" won't save you. NOT winning in such a situation is "death" - or worse.

Also, you'll learn that "winning" depends on the eye of the beholder. It is not black and white as you insist. "Winning" can constitute walking away from fights - or "losing" in practice so that a classmate can learn - or even putting down one's preconceived notions to hear somebody else's point of view.

Overall, your insistence on dichotomizing kung fu and its practitioners only makes it HARDER for people (including YOURSELF) to learn the arts, not easier.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I think I'll LEAVE THEM, then.

Something you do not yet realize is that the styles you mentioned have both internal and external characteristics - complete with exercises that highlight both aspects. Ask your father about iron body exercises in traditional Taijiquan training.

(What is that iron body in Chinese Mandarine?)

My advice is that you go much further in your training before trumping the merits of internal over external. One side of the coin may be preferable to you over the other, but it's STILL THE SAME COIN. By criticizing the external aspects of an art, you criticize YOURSELF.

(I didn't meant to say external is useless. Externals are good in short term needs and Internal is good in life time benifits. But All higher arts will reach the Internal point no matter you started with External or Internal. Like a country, when small, It may need to take a extream matter to defend it's position and survival. But a Major country in the wrold have more rooms and don't need to be that extream short-term policies. Even when acting, it will preserves the long terms more than the short terms.)

And as far as wanting harmony, that's not always possible. When somebody comes for you or your family wishing to do damage, the "harmonized way" won't save you. NOT winning in such a situation is "death" - or worse.

(That is pretty obvious case, but can you avoiding/prevending that situation before it happened? I don't know how often you having people jump into your family and do damage. And yet, the total harmonization can be only acheived by God. As I have said, you only aimming at that goal, but you know you will complete less. If you aim less at the beginning, you will do even lesser. I am not going to keeping my mood in a war mood, but yet, I will constantly checking to see if I can effectively handle a war. The peace/harmonize long terms mind will be kept always more than survival/war short terms mind in ratio.)

Also, you'll learn that "winning" depends on the eye of the beholder. It is not black and white as you insist. "Winning" can constitute walking away from fights - or "losing" in practice so that a classmate can learn - or even putting down one's preconceived notions to hear somebody else's point of view.

(don't know what is the difference that you are talking here. Walking away form a fights? didn't I mention about avoiding the fight? Losing in practice so that a classmate can learn? Didn't I mention about fighting for improving arts rather to win? I don't know what is new here.)

Overall, your insistence on dichotomizing kung fu and its practitioners only makes it HARDER for people (including YOURSELF) to learn the arts, not easier.

(That part you can only find out if your view is true or not after you met me face to face.)