Article on JKD

[Sensei Kunz]

Go to:

kungfumagazine.com

Comments can be made here!

[apoweyn]

it was a good article as far as it went. a good overview for people who aren't familiar. but i'd kinda like to see articles aimed at people that have already read the books, seen the video tapes, etc. people that already have the textbook definition of JKD and are now interested in what you, personally, do with it.

just my opinion though.


stuart

[Sensei Kunz]

I couldn't agree with you more. The majority of the books out there including articles are more and more a repeat of the basics. Currently I am writing anew article relating to JKD in intercepting, trapping, grappling and groundwork that goes beyond the basics. I do not believe that there exist a book in such great detail about JKD beyond the same routines and concepts.

Thanks for your opinion!

Sensei Kunz

[apoweyn]

no worries.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

I'll be a bit harsher, but it's not mean to be insulting.

The article demonstrates no new insights into JKD or its training. It sounds exactly like the "standard spiel." If that was your intent, that's fine. But it sounds like the latest "rewording," of the exact same stuff that's been said for years.

Like I said--if your intent was to simply outline to the layperson the overall vision of what JKD is, then fine. But if it was to try and provide a nuanced understanding, then it's not so hot.

[Sensei Kunz]

It was directed towrds the traditional and classical arts on hoping to enlightent them of other avenues of the arts. It was not meant to open the eyes of any JKD practitioners. the articles and book I am now in the process of finishing will be new and exciting, at least from my perspective!

Sensei Kunz

[Merryprankster]

Sensei--question, serious one:

Do you feel that the article offerred insight into the JKD mindset for the serious practicioner of a traditional/classical art? Or do you think that it was more of the same old, same old?

I guess my point is this: If the person has been around the MA world for any length of time, they've come across this before. If they haven't, THEN the article is of value. I'm trying to understand which audience you are trying to reach.

If it was the first person, then I think that you aren't showing them anything different.

If it was the second, then you have given the intro.

Now, your book sounds like you are trying to reach the first person.

[rogue]

As a traditional kind of guy, it sounded like the same old same old rap that I've been hearing for years from the JKDoka.

"Traditional styles limit the student."

And JKD causes warts. You're not supporting your claim with facts and neither am I. But JKD does cause warts, I've seen it happen. :D


"A kata is nothing more than a repetition of a mechanical technique that will never be used in any form in combat. "

If your sensei taught them only as techniques then you may be right. As I'm being taught they're a multi-purpose training tool. They help develope movement, balance, co-ordination and yes techniques. They're a part of training not an end in training, they should be experimented with and tweaked during one, two & three step sparring, and then during actual sparring.
I'm not sure I buy into the Dillman idea of the hidden techniques in kata but, an upper block is the same movement as a forearm to the throat, as an elbow to under the chin, as the first part of moving my arm up to wrap someones neck, as a knife hand to right below the mandible. All the same mechanical movement applied in different ways at different ranges. Also that hard upper block turns into a soft block against a haymaker. Not bad for one simple mechanical move. :)

"In each given fight, no one knows how an opponent's body position or placement will be."

Exactly the same reason given for some of the moves in kata and some of the less obvious techniques used. I've been taught not to fight square on but to move and strike from angles. I also have to assume that I will be attacked in the same manner and must have some kind of defense and counter that I can use with out turning to face my opponent or getting into a fighting stance.

"Intercepting your opponent by way of jamming, feints and attacks."

Check, check, and check. We got them.

"There are pros and cons with traditional styles of self-defense; they are a good place to start but not to finish!"

And it's that attitude that sent me on my way to look into traditional arts. Everything you listed as negative in traditional arts I've come across in JKD people, and all the good things about JKD I've seen in traditional arts. Instead of JKD people pointing out what they perceive to be wrong with other arts they should really just display what is good about JKD. Hey maybe showing what is good about a traditional art, (you think all those techniques were thought up by BL?) and shedding light on a traditional technique would also win more friends to the JKD camp.

"Only repetition in creativity and simplicity to reach the subconscious. "

Why is it that JKD people talk about simplicity but have a hard time talking straight. ;)

[Merryprankster]

Honestly rogue?

They have a hard time talking straight because they haven't/can't define JKD.

[rogue]

I'm not going there again MP!;)

On one hand I've seen the same things that David talks about at supposedly "traditional" schools, but to say that those experiences represent what we call traditional arts would be wrong.

For some reason many JKD people feel they need to reinforce their belief to "traditional" martial artists that their way is superior and we TMA are somehow being retarded by our training , by using a broad brush to tell us what our arts are about. Why? Why compare at all? Of the various branches of JKD that I've seen all were sound arts in and of themselves. Not perfect, all different, but still good.

In my opinion JKD people need to stop looking at what they perceive to be wrong with "traditional" martial arts and even other branches of JKD and just work on their own art. If that's your path follow it, but my path may be different.

[Merryprankster]

Rogue,

The reading I've done leads me to believe that "aliveness," is probably the primary 'point,' behind JKD. This is actually the same argument you will see with MMA, but it's a little less well defined.

Now, I'm not going to say what JKD is and isn't. What I'm saying is that everybody who uses the term seems to mean something different, where-as if somebody says they do "MMA," a rather clear picture (ala UFC or Pride type sportive training style) comes to mind.

Unfortunately, until JKD figures out how to define itself, the question about "what it is," will continue, much like the Lineage wars in WC.

[rogue]

If anything points to JKD coming from WC it'll be that!:D Oh drat the guys on the WC forum will be on me about that one. That Old Jong always turns me in. Where you hiding OJ? I know you're there! :p

These days when I hear JKD I hear a generic term for a kind of martial art style, like karate, wrestling or kung fu. It means something but in a fuzzy sort of way, but if you see it you can say "Oh thats JKD".

[Merryprankster]

Right--that's exactly my point. It's a fuzzy concept, nothing concrete, and therefore, must be defined prior to having a real discussion about it.

You nailed Kunz's article's problems right on the head--it's nothing new. It's the same-old same-old. There's nothing revolutionary about it.

And that's why I'm trying to ascertain the audience he was trying to reach. An experienced MAist--or at least a well read one, will yawn and scratch himself when he reads that.

A brand new person will go--oh? Well let me find out some more. It's sort of like "JKD Overview 101," but there's nothing new about the article--no nuance, no insight that is particularly revealing. That's FINE if that was the aim.

[rogue]

Where is David? I hate when some people have a life and I'm stuck working all night!;)

If anything I do have a problem with Davids mission. Sounds like the Baptists vs the Catholics. :)

"Sensei Kunz only wishes to open the minds of the closed of those from traditional styles of Karate and Kung-Fu."

"Sensei Kunz specializes in combat training and taking existing students from the traditional styles and teaching freedom from the traditional ways. Too many traditional styles rely too heavily on "fixed" katas or forms, this only takes from the individual and has no use in combat."

I will say that kata is being misplaced in many schools. Some are too heavy on kata thinking that it contains some sort of mystical secret, some have cut kata off completely from fight training making it this other thing to do during class or competitions and some have just dumped it.

"He believes that once an individual has earned a black belt that it is just the beginning of exploration."

I agree.

"Upon earning a black belt from one style, then one should empty their cup, only to refill it again and again."

Implies that a black belt in style A is equivilent to BB style B. What if in your art BB means you know it all but in my system a BB means you've passed the introduction phase now it's time to learn the art. In JKD speak, I've just learned how to hold the cup now it can be filled.

[Sensei Kunz]

I apologize for not being around the last couple of days, however, I had three molars pulled and at the same time caught the 48 hour flu going around. It was horrible!

I will try and answer most of the questions that have been posted, I am still not feeling up to par, so forgive me, if I leave something out, just ask again.

The article was to open the minds of the closed traditional styles. Beleive me there are still many out there who feel there is no need to evaluate or change a technique that does not work for them. I am glad to hear that some of the post that this is not the case with your schools. (Far and few between).

All styles are a great place to start, even JKD. I am not stating thatJKF is superior, only in its concepts if you truly understand them. I currently have three black belts in the traditional styles and was never taught to explore and self-express myself. What I was taught was gospel and there was no time for change or being open minded.

As far as Katas are concerned, I feel "fixed" forms are great for meditation purposes, however, free form has the best advantages. (Personal opionion). I am speaking from many street confrontations I have personally been involved in through my years of professions. This is not mere theories or maybes.

It is hard to write an article being limited in words and to express or expound on many things. Try it sometime, it is not fun! I realize after the article was in print that there was much more that I wanted to clarify, yet it is too late.

Regarding the taking of traditional black belts and converting them. Yes, I do teach straight street fighting techniques that work and even to the beginners. You might be surprised on how many of these black belts have not idea what street fighting is about. They may know point sparring with light contact, but when it comes to full contact with grappling and takedowns, they don't know much! I am not say this to be true of all styles, but a majority of them. That is why I made the statement that, black belts of today are only purple belts of yesteryear.

Time for bed, again if I missed anything, just let me know!

Your Servant

Sensei Kunz

[Merryprankster]

Sensei,

If your intent was to open the minds of traditional practicioners you've failed rather miserably. The wording is confrontational and smacks of the "SEE!!! My Style's got it RIGHT." Even your response as to the intent of this article does that in the first sentence that really gets to the meat of the issue:


The article was to open the minds of the closed traditional styles.


Instant turn-off #1--


Then you proceed to say:



I am not stating that JKF is superior, only in its concepts if you truly understand them.

Instant turn-off #2--


As far as Katas are concerned, I feel "fixed" forms are great for meditation purposes, however, free form has the best advantages. (Personal opionion). I am speaking from many street confrontations I have personally been involved in through my years of professions. This is not mere theories or maybes.

Instant turn-off #3-- I might also add that anybody out there says the same thing about it "not being mere theories or maybes," when it comes to their art. The problem is that you don't make your response "you specific." This would be important ESPECIALLY if JKD is about finding what works for you.

It sounds like you've invested a great deal of yourself in the opinion--Colin Powell once remarked that it is necessary to ensure that you don't identify so closely with it, that if it is attacked, you feel attacked too.

Common problem in MA's :) Anywhere really.

[Merryprankster]

Many readers searching on the subject of "Jeet Kune Do" are probably looking for the secret that does not exist to achieve mastering the "Way." Many articles have been written on this subject and I am sure it will continue, as long as readers are willing to keep searching for the "all knowing" and yet, not understanding anything they are searching for in "Jeet Kune Do"!

I have been studying the martial arts for thirty-three years and was just as perplexed as many readers today. I received my first black belt in kung-fu when I was seventeen years old. I then enlisted in the Army and earned my black belt in Tae Kwon Do in Korea. Upon returning to the States, I studied Kenpo Karate in Santa Barbara with Rick Avery, Chris Weidman and **** Willet.

I was always fascinated with Bruce Lee and his way of self-defense that he portrayed in his movies. He was graceful, with simplicity and directness. At that time, I could not actually put my finger on why he was so enticing in his movies. I always felt that he understood something that I had not been exposed to in my training, and that he expressed this understanding by fighting in a way that was uniquely “his.”

I read many books on Bruce Lee's concepts and his philosophies of Jeet Kune Do. I practiced diligently, trying to imitate his moves and techniques . Of course, this led to nowhere but being more confused. It wasn't until many years later that I read in-depth Lee's concepts of the art and the philosophies of yin and yang as it pertained to the martial arts, that I finally got it. I began to look to myself for creativity and self-expression, keeping everything simple and direct. I learned that we are all different and that we are all talented in our own way. Therefore, we must discover, know and express ourselves to understand that all things change and we must also. Even then, with this one concept in mind, it took me several years to break the habits I had ingrained during my training.

I have been teaching for thirty years, and in that time have come up with some thoughts on today's Jeet Kune Do.

Katas
Through the many years of training in Tae Kwon Do and Kenpo I was taught so many katas, that even today I have trouble remembering some of them. There is a tremendous focus on learning forms and katas in many schools—so much so that for many, doing techniques “the way it is in the form” becomes far more important than “the technique worked.” Consequently, I don’t teach kata. Concepts and techniques are developed through simple repetition to reach the subconscious. Live drills are executed, and then (hopefully—every person is different!) integrated by the student into their own fighting style.


Intercepting
This is really the true art of Jeet Kune Do. Intercepting your opponent by way of jamming, feints and attacks. There is nothing better than an opponent who becomes unsure and confused in his action. There should be no thought of action, only action itself. A hit should hit all by itself.

Traditional Styles
Jeet Kune Do allowed me to open up my training and personalize my style. In each given fight, no one knows how an opponent's body position or placement will be. One must react to the given opening without delay, attacking using whatever will work, be it a technique that was taught or a spontaneous expression that seemed to be “the right thing at that time.” To express yourself, you need to become like a tree: a good root and trunk with branches and leaves that blow in the wind. Towards this end I teach (whatever structure it is you have at your school) to develop their core fighting skills and use (whatever it is you use—I imagine lots of free sparring) to encourage students to develop their own style.

Training
Students today only train during their schedule class times. This is not enough. To become very good at something, one must train on a daily basis. It amazes me how the majority of black belts today are only purple belts of yesteryear. This is due to lack of proper training and exercise. (personally, I think this is bunk, but if you like it run with it.)

Belts
I do agree with the belt system in the martial arts. Many have criticized me because I have implemented a belt system in my teachings of Jeet Kune Do. However, many new students have no foundation of the martial arts and need to start somewhere. In America, all traditional styles and competition are based upon the belt system. Even Bruce Lee had a rating system that was equivalent to the belt system. Each student must prove himself worthy of promotion and should have the highest respect for its meaning within its own interpretation of school. My students do compete in tournaments in Southern California and all tournaments I have personally competed in have a rating systems by belt color.

Sparring Contact
In Jeet Kune Do, students spar with full contact gear with maximum effort. Sparring includes but is not limited to: kicks, hits, feints, draws, jamming, trapping, parries, timing, distance acknowledgement, grappling, take-downs, ground technique and self-expression. To become a great fighter, one must be trained in all aspects of contact. Any school one chooses should have time set aside for full contact free-sparring. If it doesn’t, and personal defense is the aim, leave immediately and don’t go back

My advice for the martial arts student:
· First, find a good instructor. Make sure your instructor has an open mind for change.
· Train everyday if possible. If not, then every other day!
· Read and study other arts. Look for simplicity and directness. Flashy is for television, not real life.
· Beware of anyone who says they have all the answers or they are masters in their art. You will also be just as limited as them.
· Grow continuously by creative self-expression in technique and understanding that all things change.
· Remember, there is no such thing as one technique that will work in any given situation. Every person is different and reacts differently.
· Become comfortable with grappling techniques. Most fights will end with someone putting their hands on you.
· Learn to intercept your opponent. There is nothing else that will make your strike more powerful than your opponent’s opposing force.
· Become one with your opponent, think of yourself as a cup in this relationship. A cup without a handle is just a bowl and a handle without a bowl is nothing!
· All strikes should be made from the hip. (you need to clarify what you mean here—it’s unclear if you mean they should be CHAMBERED at the hip (clearly not) or “spontaneously—without a preset ending “technique,” in mind)
· Art, after all, is a means of acquiring "personal" liberty. Your way is not my way, nor mine yours.
· Evaluation by others should not be a guide for you. (then why institute a belt system? Contradictory evidence. Rethink or clarify the statement.)
· Do not ever start a battle with a set plan, this would be fatal.
· Make your parry and strike as one. Keep your parry movements small, so to have your opponent’s strike just miss its target.
· One can only be free if he is unconcerned with the “proper response.”.
· A feint cannot be effective unless it forces your opponent to move.
· Between two evenly matched fighters, the fighter that leads is at a disadvantage. The fighter that counters has the advantage. (maybe.)
· Do not worry about the outcome of a sparring match, it will take care of itself.
· Eighty percent of defense is counter attack in Jeet Kune Do. In Jeet Kune Do feints and draws are not direct attacks. It does assist our opponent to directly attack.
· Mechanical fighters are easy prey.
· Truth is outside any set style or patterns.
· Know yourself!


Here-I had nothing better to do today, so I had the arrogance and temerity to rework your article. ;) I think it makes the same points without being as dismissive of traditional arts--you won't win any converts that way. However, I will say that the content still isn't going to convince anybody in a traditional style because they've heard it all before.

[Sensei Kunz]

It is obvious that many things need to be repeated because people have a tendency to hear but not to absorb. It seems that you both are secure in your ways, may you continue on in good health. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Even after 33 yrs. I am still learning. All I asked was for an open mind, which is not apparent in a few replies. I did not intend to attack, only to provke thought and reaction. I wouold be very interested in knowing what styles you do learn under, this may provide some light on your responses.

Sensei Kunz

[Merryprankster]

Brazilian Jiujitsu, Boxing, and Wrestling. Every now and again I'll train with some MT guys. :)

[rogue]

My main art is a varient of old school TKD. I'm also studying Isshinryu as time allows. In the past I've taken JKD, Muay Thai some BJJ and JJJ.

I do have an open mind and that's why I ended up with going to classical arts. I'm not saying your experience with them is wrong but different from mine.

Don't take what MP and I have written the wrong way David, we're just being candid. If we were off base just point out where, maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

Question, how much of your traditional styles work enters into your JKD? Some of your techniques on your site are very close to what I do in TKD and Isshinryu.

Hope you get better soon.

[Sensei Kunz]

I want to thank you for your concern, it is appreciated! It is obvious that you both are well trained in cross training, which I find extraodinary. My hat is off to you.

You will find that most JKD instructors have had training in the traditional or classical styles prior to their JKD crossing. We all bring in our own individuality with JKD. Maybe this is why so many cannot agree in the JKD realm. LOL!

The reason for some other techniques are being shown on my website from TKD, Kenpo and Sei-King Gung-Fu is that I teach a lot of children. I cannot teach out straight JKD to them, they are not mentally or responsible of that kind of training. I teach them a combination of three traditional styles that I personally feel will ease them into JKD at a later age if their commitment is strong enough for the enderance of time. You will see some straight JKD techniques which I will only teach to teenagers above 15 to adult. Then again, I don''t teach everything. Some people you will come across cannot be trusted with certain information or techniques, if you know what I mean.

The children, approx. 200+ learn the basics of self-defense with a JKD concept for foundation in self-expression. They absorb what is useful and discard what is not. Not everyone of us can fight the same. Nobody wants to be a robot! We are all built differently and cannot all do the same thing as well as another. It is best that we learn what are talents or abilities allow and train them to perfection.

For expample, if I came upon an opponent that had better boxing skills than I, then I would either keephim at kicking distance at the knees of course, or trapping by immobilization into grappling or take-downs and ground works. I would let my opponent choose the way I fight rather than just fight with what I know. this brings us to the intelligent fighter!

I want to thank you both for your fast responses!

By the way, I am not offended by any of your comments. If we all agreed, then what a boring world this would be! It is always great to agree to disagree! How else can we learn from one another?

Your Servant

Sensei Kunz

[Merryprankster]

Hey sensei--no problem man!

Personally, I agree with your conclusion more than I don't. My only "offering," was perhaps a different way to phrase the conclusion--when you try to create positive interest in something, the surest way to ensure you DON'T is by saying something like "traditional systems have no place in combat."

Well, that might be true (rhetorically folks, don't get your panties in a bunch!!!)--but the people who have done them have just as much invested in those systems as you do in "no system," so they get defensive. When you've got somebody on the defensive, they aren't listening.

That's all I was trying to say :)

[DelicateSound]

Sensei Kunz just hit the brick wall of argument that is Merryprankster :D


I've just read the article and every post here guys - and nice thread.


SK: I liked the article, but do hold pretty much every view put forward by MPS and Rogue. I do feel that this stuff has been said before - but maybe not in such an indepth way. I've read a lot of this stuff but still found it a good-read. :)



I guess that's a first as I've always had an overall gripe with JKD, not in its "concepts" form of absorbing what is useful, but in its often stoic defense of its principles and defiance of sometimes different viewpoints.

Having said that, your training does seem far better than the JKD I have seen, which always appears patchy in a horrible "jack-of-all-trades" way.



They have a hard time talking straight because they haven't/can't define JKD.

So true. Not to knock Bruce Lee in any way but JKD seems to me to be a really personal thing. The Universal message of individual style is there, but only one man knew what the hell he was talking about!




But yep, I liked it Sensei Kunz. It won't change my life, or my vehement wish to study purely Wing Chun, but it's a good read, and an example of overview and perspective at its best. And I'm a Judo/Lau-Gar man.



[read all of that in the least patronising voice you can. I didn't mean it, but I'm not re-editing, so put-up and shut-up the lot of you]

[Sensei Kunz]

Yes, it has been a great discussion point on a variety of views and ideas.

I see one of the major problems with JKD today is the bickering amoung its own. However, this is happening in many other arts without naming them.

If we could just converse and look at all aspects and view points and the experiences of others as brothers in the arts, then we might have a beginning.

I am not sure about the comment of hitting a brick wall, but an open discussion of what is personal and important to each of us in our path of the arts and understanding of ourselves.

My article was also mainly based on what I have seen in the majority of arts today. I was in heavy competition back in the 70's and 80's. Protective gear was virtually unknown at that time. The competition I faced was great. Recently I attended four outside open tournaments and many styles attended, this was within the last year. Most competitors were for Kata and very few were competing in kumite and the ones that did, could not believe the quality of their so-called black belts. I competed in all four and placed first. I am not boasting here mind you, it was just a shock that there was little competition that use to be so fluid and rampant back in my earlier days. I have not competed since.

The article was also a draw of the quality of the martial artist today and if it was as bad as first thought. I was alos hoping that it would enlighten a few who happen to be receiving training that was not quite up to par.

It seems all the leaders and name bearers of yesteryear have gone or gone quite and the arts are running rampant in every direction. Mind you this is just an observation from my perspective only!

Please enlighten?

Your Servant

Sensei Kunz

[DelicateSound]

The "brick wall thing" I was just messin'. Little joke on here that MPS seems to be able to argue convincingly about anything. Ask him about the mechanisation of Northern England during the industrial revolution. Or visual art. :D


As for the standard of competitors, I put it down to the modern commercialisation of the arts. With McDojo's springing up everywhere, and kids of 5 and 6 starting Karate, people get taught watered down versions of styles with no sparring, no contact etc.


I'm sure there are still "hardcore" fighters out there, but not everyone wants to be one. I myself could never afford a broken hand - it would kill my guitar playing dead :D [seriously] so I'm never going to be entering into UFC#874 or whatever.


You obviously are a serious Martial Artist, it's obvious you put it very high on your list of priorities. That's good, and the arts need guys like that. However, many "black belts" are not as serious.


And those speech marks were for a reason. :)

[Sensei Kunz]

You are absolutly right. I have always been hardcore and didn't believe in anythnig but being all the way.

I like the term McDojos, and that is probably the ones I am referring to in my many posts.

No thanks, I don't think I want to start another conversation with a subject I know nothing about, especially New England and his history. I would get killed! LOL!

I agree that many of the arts are for the reason for health and meditation and just wanting to know the body better. there is an art for to the "fixed" techniques, they are sometimes very beautiful to watch, if done right with hard work and practice.

I think in the future, I will make remarks and establish an acknowledgement of my being hardcore and have a better understanding towards the practitioner in general.

It is my personal belief that the arts are for self-defense and must be used when necessary if the time arises. It just upsets me so, when someone has practiced under the illusion of years of training that they can defend themself in a combat street confrontation and has been led to believe this through their instructor and then boom, they are on the ground. This is where I was truly hoping to reach an audience of, as you put it, McDojo's.

I have discovered a lot during these posts and want to thank all involved. I know I can see things in a different light and not approach it in the future as a whole. It is obvious that their are still some serious martial artist here that take the arts for different purposes and are satisfied with it. That I can swallow and understand!

your Servant

Sensei Kunz

[Merryprankster]

Sensei,

You want to stop the McDojo's? Well, you can't. But there is one way that you can make "two worlds."

There's boxing workouts and then there is boxing. Nobody gets them confused. Why? Because boxers beat on each other.

Continued emphasis on sportfighting will improve MA and will provide away for somebody who really wants to kick some ass to find the right place to train.

McDojo's serve useful purposes, however :)

[DelicateSound]

Sensei Kunz: Don't be too hard on yourself man! I know that there's been a lot of picking through it on here, but it's still better than 98% of MA literature out there. :)

As for the purpose of MA's, this is a VERY mixed topic. I personally train COMPLETELY for self-defence, and so I will spar as much as possible, with as many styles as possible. I will train for a solid punch etc.

However, MA's are just part of my life. I'm a much better guitarist and so never want to risk breaking a hand. Straight away this is conflict. I can't really go to a balls-out hardcore school where broken bones are just par for the course [I have done before however] but I'm not going to go to a McDojo and learn something completely unsuitable for the street.

So when MPS says:


There's boxing workouts and then there is boxing. Nobody gets them confused. Why? Because boxers beat on each other.

...he is both right and wrong. If you get my drift. MA's are so much more varied than boxing.

I THINK I've found a perfect balance with Wing Chun. I'm not sure yet.



However, 90%+ of Martial Artists are learning sh!te. Most couldn't tell you what is and is not sh!te.

In a way I feel sad about this. In a way I know that this is the same with everything.


Maybe someone should write up on this.

[Merryprankster]

Delicate--

What I was saying is that you can create two worlds:

The McDojos--nothing wrong with them. If people are looking to feel MA-ish and needing a fun activity for the kids or to do with their familiy, then this is fine. Little to no full contact sparring

The "Not McDojos"--these guys spar. A lot. And they hurt each other sometimes. And there are real injuries. And some might step in the ring or not--but it's still a sportfighting model for the training base--that is, you spar, often and with contact, but with some rules and gear in place for safety. Nobody really wants to go at it bare-knuckle on unpadded floor all the time. Doesn't mean you can't train weapons or forms or practice meditation, but beating on each other is one of the primary training tools.

How would Judo practice have felt without the mats?

Boxing was just an example--tai chi for old people and folks who beat each other up with it might be a different example. The slow, for exercise style, has benefits, but Martial Skill isn't one of them. But if that's not their goal, then fine.

[tri2bmt]

Didn't read the article but have read the thread and all posts and I have a few things I feel were left out.
1.)When most JKD people talk about JKD and the ideas/ philsophies that are its base they tend to sound like Bruce Lee.
2.) I feel that most TMA could use the ideas and concepts of JKD in their styles to break habits they may be forming.
3.) JKD(from what I've read of Bruce Lee) is a set of concepts and ideas. There are no specific movements or attacks. It is whatever you can use and is comfortable for you. Bruce Lee developed JKD from a solid base of Wing Chun which is very noticeable in modern JKD immitaion.
That's all it is; immitation.
JKD practioners have now become the product of Bruce Lees ideas and turned them into the gospel truth. I think he'd be disgusted with the extreme imitation going on and people claiming to know or understand JKD by reciting Bruce Lee quotes and using his ideas and trying to convince themselves it's theres.
Sadly there is no liberation in either mindless JKD or TMA.
I don't hate JKD but most people are just imitating Bruce Lee.
The only good thing that ever came of JKD was the philsophy and ideas of Brcue Lee and their importance on the concept of unarmed combat.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

[Sensei Kunz]

First thing sir; I think you have been smoking a little to much of that grass that grows in your front yard. It is obvious that your only knowledge of JKD is heresay from others who never even understood or studied it.

JKD has a strong base of foundation that must be adhered to; inwhich I don't have the time to write 40 pages to explain just some of the basic concepts. To just slightly mention a few: The stance, footwork, centerline theory, X, five ways of attack, flowing, hammer principle, power delivery, boxing techniques, etc....................... If the main core or concepts (foundation) are not followed then it is not JKD! It would be the same of me asking you to explain your art when I have ignorance to deal with in knowing what you are talking. Nothing personal, just know a little about something as fact before your tongue splits in two?

Wing Chung is a small part of what JKD is about, by the way. It was the start of his development into trapping and grappling. (immobilization)

Everyone in the arts has to start somewhere. be it any style, form or way. There is no such thing as a superior art, only a superior practioner!!!!

Sensei Kunz

[red5angel]

I know I am coming into this thread waaaaaay late but I just read the article and Rogue was kind enough to point me in the right direction.

Mr. Kunz, you seem like a nice guy, and you also seem confident in your beliefs. I read your article and while I also agree with the other guys that it is mostly rehashed, we are also oldtimers on the forum here and have been in martial arts a few years. Others who are new to the arts or JKD may find it interesting.

Now, I should warn you I am wing chun practitioner, but dont have the seeming enmity for JKD that most WC people have. Arts spring from other arts and that is the way it has always been. I am however a classical man for many reasons. Most of which have been pointed out by several of the other guys who have already talked to you on this thread.

My only real issue is that all of your problems with the 'classical mess' sound more like training issues then anything else. If you havent been taught that forms arent application then you are training wrong. I fyou cant explore what you are sutdying to figure out why something does or does not work, then you are not training correctly. You see what I am saying? If you get far enough in an art, I believe you begin to make it your own, but you have to have a very deep understanding of that art, one Bruce Lee did not have, but was working on when he died. It seems people have taken his notes on combat and turned them into a way to fight, when I think like you said, it is the concepts that are the important things. Of course ultimately we cant get into what he thought becaus ehe is not capable of confirming our ideas and so it is all speculation.
What most JKD guys preach, is what I think is a natural progression already built into the martial arts, its only a few that really get it though. You train, for a long time to understand what it is you are doing, and then when you have finally understood it, you empty your cup and begin to explore it even deeper.
Its unfortunate that Bruce Lee took the word Art in the martial arts too much to heart. It is still about fighting and you dont get that skill by jumping around and making up your own things. Many arts have been developed and refined over centuries, and with good reason, most men cannot do it in a lifetime.

[Sensei Kunz]

Thank you for your post!

In regards to the "classical mess" mentioned, I am referring to the majority of dojos that have been commercialized and are no longer teaching true self-defense, rather, they have turned it into a dancing art. I have seen this with my own eyes, especially from the tournament competitions recently. Many turn out for the kata competition and the few fighters that remain, in my opinion, are a joke. They couldn't defend themselves if their life depended on it, let alone, in the streets.

On the "fixed forms", I have been taught many of them in my traditional styles and never found them reliable or useful. This is just my personal opinion, mind you! I am a true believer however in free forms. Due to street fight situations, they are ever changing and not fixed. Too many arts train their students that a fight will happen this way and you must do this. This is far from the truth!

I know the article was short and there was much more I wanted to elaborate, however, some things I could not get in. In the furture, I will be addressing one title rather than many in such short space. LOL!

I know that you cannot dispute the above statments for they are fact.

Kindest Regards,


Sensei Kunz

[red5angel]

Thanks for replying, I think mainly you just have to be careful about over generalizations as some of us guys not stuck in the classical mess but studying classical kung fu wont get offended ;)
I dont mind reading articles about any sort of kung fu and dont have any particular problem with JKD, or MMA type stuff in general, just not my path.

As for forms, I just see them as being a useful training tool. You are right they cannot be applied directly to the street, but they teach your body unity, help you to assume positions that are often painful at first and awkward but help you to get past those hurtles as well. They can act as a catalog of a styles techniques, and can be like you said, a great meditation tool.

I do however agree with you on how schools teach now adays. There are many people out there teaching who just shouldnt be. In wing chun I can see that everywhere I go. I study Wing chun from a guy who has an incredible amount of understanding on how the wing chun things works. After seeing it you can look at the other stuff out there, most o fit anyway, and know that it is watered down and weak.
I like the idea of padless tourneys, unfortunately for now the legal sensitivties here in the US do not permit some people to do them, others treat it as more of a game, something to get you students actvely involved in but not really concentrating on the substance of the martial conflict. I also do not like the turning towards the kata and form competitions. It seems we are turning more to the Art and turning away from the martial.

[curtis]

Sensei Kunz and Red5angle
I do not wish to be rude, both of you bring up some very good points. Although I believe you're both wrong as far as the forms go .
Why pretend to do something? Why not develop drills to work on individual elements that you choose to look at? Granted forms may be useful. But they take great time to learn, time that could be better spent.
I believe we should learn ,like a child does.
Children learn through play ((it has to be fun!)) They learn through their basic senses (site, touch. Ect...) Where in a form do you get the tactile response necessary to trigger your actions? As well as immediate feedback? (After all how can you tell just by watching if all of the angles are correct in whatever technique featured in the form.) I believe it is much easier, as well as quicker to work on drills instead of using your imagination.

On meditation, the mind takes control. Sort of .?!
I believe there is a conscious and subconscious mind.
In meditation the purpose is to connect the two. For when the two halves of your mind are working in conjunction, greater speed, in learning and behavior modification can be performed much quicker and easier, Then the traditional ways are doing things.

I believe in direct meditation. (Positive suggestion, goal oriented positive feedback) instead of indirect meditation .

There's nothing wrong with the older ideas on how to do things.

MY goal is not to put down one art (or the ways you learn), but ONLY to explain the differences and WHY, I do things differently.

"In a pinch" I want to learn the most efficient way I can. Time is a valued commodity, one that I cannot afford to waste.
Now I can only talk for myself. Although I believe that Bruce Lee felt something a kin, to what I just explained.
You do what you wish. And I will do what I do. And this is WHY!!! ( I also believe he was more dramatic in his explanations, and did not care if he offended anyone, who may have mis-understood what he said. )

I could be completely wrong. But I do not believe SO. The way I have been taught to train is the CORRECT ONE FOR ME.
I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. Sometimes a different point of view, can help you focus on the matter at hand.:)
Have a good night. C.A.G.

[brothernumber9]

forms can be, and in some systems, are drills.

if time is one's concern then perhaps focusing on only hands on drills with the aspects of previous posts may be better for quicker development. Maybe not. an argument to the later could be based on how many drills you could come up with, even in your whole life time, as opposed to how many drills you can make out of sections of forms, and drills that are already present in any Traditional chinese martial arts school that have been thought up, experienced and developed over hundreds of years? One had better be really creative to do that.

The argument of JKD vs Classical MA ( I substitute with Traditional chinese martial arts ) is an argument against itself. Traditional styles are not completely set in their ways, they evolve and change, similar to some pyramids I suppose, that were built on top of foundation after foundation. I may elicite negative response as I am no expert on anything about Bruce Lee or JKD, but pretty much everything that people interperet or quote from Bruce Lee's philosophies already exist in classical arts.

my point is that it is pointless to try to pit JKD vs Classical arts unless you pick out a specific art, at least then succinct examples and comparisons can be drawn. As for enlightening classical stylists with JKD theories or philosophies, try presenting any NEW theories or philosophies to someone who really knows an art such as choy lay fut, hung ga, Southern praying mantis, if the practitioner has learned the concepts, theories, philosophies, poetries, and applications, then one would find it extremely difficult if possible at all.

[red5angel]

Curtis - I understand where you are coming from but not only do you do forms but you should also be doing drills as well. The forms and the drills do different thinks but work in synergie to develope skill. Like I said, for some drills and some arts, forms not only catalogue techniques but they help physical developement that is optimal for some arts, help to re-adjust you posture to be correct for your art, help to mold your body into what your art embodies.
Do you see what I am saying? The drills help you to form tactile response or sensitivity and reflex, while the forms mold your body and allow you to get "to know" your style.

[curtis]

HELLO red5angel, and brothernumber9

I believe the classical mess analogy drives from many areas in THE traditional ways of doing things, like forms. (Please hear me out before you jump to rash decisions, on what I talk about.)

I do not know what Bruce Lee thought. All I can tell you is what I was taught, as well as my interpretations of what I have learned.

In the Oriental ways of thinking. To give someone a knife is foolish, for they will probably stab you in the back.

SO many martial art's are very secretive. For just that reason, others have made things very tough for its students. (too weed out the undesirable people.)
Of course these are just examples, (I am not pointing fingers at any one.) Although I believe there is much filler information given to a student that is not necessary, to perform the art they are studying. (Yes information may be valuable later, but is it necessary?) If your goal is to learn self defense, then I believe your answer will be NO, and if you're beyond self defense element your answer will probably be YES.
I believe in practicality. Self defense is first, and then comes the art.
No matter how beautiful the art is, or how effective the art CAN be, I believe you must first ask your self, how much of what I know is necessary to survive a street fight? Chances are you'll find ,you do not need to know a lot in order to survive. You just have to be good at what you know.

Fighting is dangerous, but not complicated. I believe you must first understand that. Then you can learned the art! ( Not before)

All too many people study the art in hope to learn, how to defend them selfs. I believe that is a mistake.
Again these are just my opinions. You can either take them , or leave them. It is your choice.

The thing I find funny, and why I originally wrote was. This is Jeet Kune Do page (fourm) SO why do so many people quote Bruce Lee, and then DO something that is completely opposite, of what they just stated?
AGAIN I AM NOT POINTING AT ANYONE, I just find a lot of contradictions, in what people stay and do.
"O WELL" its all up to individual interpretation. :)
Sincerely C.A.G.

[Sensei Kunz]

I have a question for you posters! Do you think there is a difference between general martial arts and real street fighting?

I will state my own personal belief and you guys and take it from there. (As I know you will) LOL!

I do believe that many of the arts today could not defend themself in a street fight situation. There are too many factors involved that are not being taught inside the schools. Many instructors may have made a name for themself in sparring competition, however, they have had no real street fighting experience. Sparring in the dojo and fighting in the streets are two different worlds. This is a fact!

In the street, one must have expereince from all fighting aspects including grappling and groundwork. If there are some of you that believe that a fight will end before it gets to the ground, you better wake up and smell the coffee and then slap yourself in the face.

Regarding forms/katas that are fixed, they are great for meditation and developing technique. however, do no believe that every technique will work on every individual. There must be a flow and transition from all aspects that may occurr in a combatant. Not every individual responds or reacts the same when hit.

Sparring competitions today are either 3 or 5 points and the first one that scores, the fighters are seperated and a point is awarded. There are very few individuals that go down upon one kick or hit in the real world. The best competitions are "round robins" of continuous fighting including grappling and groundwork with submissions. This is what I have found to be close to real street fighting. Oh, I almost forgot, contact with good solid hits and kicks are a must with proper protective gear.

Wishing you all the best!

Sensei Kunz
http://www.selfdefenseforyou.com

[DelicateSound]

I do believe that many of the arts today could not defend themself in a street fight situation

Blanket statement from you. :( Most people who learn classical arts cannot defend themselves in the street. Ones fom McDojo's learn incorrectly. i.e"When he hits with "X" you block with "Y"".

This won't just make you ineffective, it will get you killed. This IMHO is worse than no training at all, as it gets you into bad habits. You react with the wrong thing.

I know Karate Black Belts that say they would NEVER use their art on the street. They only know the "McDojo way" :)

However, I know some Karateka's who really have spent the time to explore their art. It's become second nature and they react instinctively, not "X"-"Y" style, but thinking on-the-fly.

IMO there are 2 layers of knowledge. The first is "Sifu says". The second is "I say". You understand your art, and it works for you.


In the street, one must have expereince from all fighting aspects including grappling and groundwork. If there are some of you that believe that a fight will end before it gets to the ground, you better wake up and smell the coffee and then slap yourself in the face.

BS. Most "streetfights" involve multiple attackers and usually weapons. NEVER go to the ground in this situation. I agree that you need to know the ground, in order not to be there, but don't make it your goal. From what I've seen, most bareknuckle fights are won by the guy who gets in the first hardest punch. Most people cannot take a shattered nose and keep fighting. They'll cover up, and turn defensive allowing themselves to be dominated by the opponant.


Regarding forms/katas that are fixed, they are great for meditation and developing technique. however, do no believe that every technique will work on every individual. There must be a flow and transition from all aspects that may occurr in a combatant. Not every individual responds or reacts the same when hit.

Which is why you have to make the art work for you. You cannot just turn up twice a week and expect to be able to defend yourself. You must take the time and effort to see what works. To see how you respond, how you cna use your skills. Like I said, "Sifu says" is merely basic knowledge. Few people transcend this.

As for katas and forms, do not dismiss them. Perfection of technique is essential. It MUST be couples with sparring obvously, but without technique it is difficult to face a combat situation. Without the correct muscle memory, and the "ingrained" mobves you will fall to pieces. I see lots of MA's swinging wildly like untrained fighters when the **** hits the fan.


The best competitions are "round robins" of continuous fighting including grappling and groundwork with submissions. This is what I have found to be close to real street fighting.

Obviously. I hate "semi-contact". That's not fighting, its ballet.

However, too many schools just throw a student into full-contact without giving him the tools to use first, They fall to pieces. Cover up and cry.

You must give a student ample time to perfect his techniques. Drills, kata etc are very important. Chi Sau is the bridge. It is one of the most important aspects in moving away from "X"-"Y" mentality.

My view on JKD is mixed, Sensei Kunz. I agree that we must consider all arts, and to use only what works for us [again, move away from "Sifu says"]

However, to say that classical forms are useless is a blanket statement that I find pretty ignorant. Bruce hardly had the experience to say that. The "mess" that Bruce talks about is present in 90% of all students yes. However, 90% of all students are crap. I've seen LOTS of bad Karate for example. I've seen good Karate very few times, and believe me, like any art, good Karate would kick ass :D

ANY art can be street effective if the necessary work is put in.

[curtis]

Sensei Kunz good Morning!

In the United States military you train for the worst case situation , in that way, you should be prepared for when real thing ,when IT happens.
Along the line of thought, I believe ground fighting should be learned. Just in case.
But I seriously disagree with you. And do not buy into the Gracies line of thought. (All fights end on the ground!)
As an adult my actual street fighting career is limited (there are more than I would like to admit. But not enough to brag about.)
and as a youth I was involved in lots of fights. Non-which ended up on the ground.

As far as forms GO. I am sorry! I believe they are A waste time! (Time which could be better spent learning techniques or concepts.)
I am sorry we are going to have to agreeing,to disagree on this topic.
GOOD LUCK IN YOUR TRAINING.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[CLG]

Hi there!
Sorry for joining in this discussion so late.
Just wanted to post a message I posted on the regular Kung Fu forum. perhaps it may be relevant to the topic at hand..? (It's been partially edited from the original post)

_________________________________________________


Some thoughts... on self-defense, traditional arts, reality fighting etc.

FWIW, I’ve trained for the better part of my life, primarily as a tool for self-discipline and fitness, at least that’s what my mother said when she first enrolled me over two decades ago. :)

After many years, questions started to arise, especially during and after High School where I unfortunately got into numerous schoolyard scraps. I have also experienced fights (during my bouncing days) where knives were involved. On one occasion I was stabbed in the gut, which ended with me waking up in a hospital bed later the same night. Unfortunately I did not have the time to see the knife coming… that’s a different story.

Please note that I am not trying to brag about my fighting ability or lack thereof, but rather trying to impress on you that I have had some experience with the realities of self-defense before I express my opinion. BTW, what you see below is just a rant and is only my opinion on what I have experienced and seen.

Coming from a more traditional martial arts background, I have asked myself the question on what reality fighting and self-defense really means? I’ve even started to investigate and question the ‘MMA/NHB fighting vs. self-defense debate’, especially since I come from a traditional Karate and Kung Fu background. How can you know for certain if what you are learning is functional in a street confrontation, i.e. a FIGHT?

I have always been in the camp that says, “MMA is a sport and has very little to do with the reality of self-defense considering the ‘FACT’ that MMA/NHB does not allow for biting, eye gouging, tearing (fish hooking), groin strikes etc.” And also the fact that traditional arts are superior, considering we teach all the things I mentioned above in addition to other things that you never see in the MMA arena. We practice different self-defense techniques from the choke hold, the bear hug, right punch, left punch, lapel grabs etc. These could include intricate striking combinations, joint locks, ripping, tearing, and using the elbows and knees to all the targets that are illegal in MMA. Please forgive my sarcasm…

Until recently I was naïve enough to think that traditional martial arts training (whether it’s Kung Fu, Karate, Jujutsu) was synonymous with self-defense skill. Actually I’ve known for some time that this was untrue. I just failed to realize this fact. I was enamored with the cool drills, the numerous self-defense techniques that apparently gave me an encyclopedia of knowledge in self-defense. Enter my college roommate… who happened to be a very good HS wrestler. He flung me around like a rag doll, and put me into hold I’d never seen. We even practiced with gear so I could use my real self-defense techniques and not have to hold back. Nope, he had me gasping for air on the ground in a matter of a minute. At the time I did not understand why things didn’t work. I kept training for several years after this in the same traditional art trying to figure out “self-defense”.

Now (several years later), I understand why my blows and techniques didn’t work. I had practiced pulling my punches for so long that my power, distance and timing were completely off. In addition to this, I had a partner (my roommate) who was resisting and ducking my blows, as would anyone who doesn’t like to get hit.

These days I train primarily for self-defense. I no longer train in what people would call a traditional art, although we have elements of this in our training. I would say what I do now is more like MMA. We work on the pre-fight stage (fight or flight/fear factor/de-escalation of a fight), striking, clinch, grappling (standing and ground) along with some weapons (knife and stick). I’m sure many of you guys are going to say: “Here we go again…” but hear me out. It’s not so much that MMA is superior, as I believe the ‘delivery systems’ of many arts are useful. The primary reason for training with the people I train with these days is summed up with a couple of words, ‘aliveness’ and ‘functionality’. This means we do not train in drills or techniques, but rather work with opponents providing real resistance. Much of our training is probably similar to what you would encounter in a NHB gym. It’s nothing revolutionary, since the type of training I’m referring to have been done for years in wrestling, boxing, muay thai, bjj etc. I have encountered some traditional schools that train in this way but they are certainly few and far between. And you sure as hell will not see it in a Mcdojo.

One of the things that you will find in a self-defense situation is that there is no time for fixed stances and positions, and certainly no time to execute the technique or drill you’ve worked on for so many years… fights just aren’t static… or patterned. When you are wrestling for control of the clinch, you find the timing of when to strike within the mess you’re dealing with. This is what is functional…

As I mentioned previously, that NHB is a sport, well, you’re right. BUT, these guys already have the delivery systems in place. They already know how to trade blows, get inside to the clinch, grapple and submit if they have to. And it’s all done in an ‘alive’ manner. All they have to do is “add dirt” as I read on another website a while back.

Anyway, I’ll step off my soapbox now. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. Again, these are just some of my opinions. Please feel free to comment on it…


__________________________________________________ __

There you have it!

CLG

[Sensei Kunz]

I enjoyed reading you post. I agree with you in your explainations of the differences of MA and street fighting. Many MApractioners have a false sense of self-confidence and this will get their butts handed to them in a street fight situation.

The only way to train iw with an opponent who will resist you alll the way. This light touchy stuff and pulling of punches will only get you deeper in trouble. I have experienced the same things and have mentioned this over and over, yet there are many who do not believe!

Sensei Kunz

[CLG]

Sensei Kunz,

Thanks for your reply. Please see the original thread in the Kung Fu forum at http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=12883

You may find it an interesting read...

CLG

[red5angel]

Curtis - On Self Defense - I hate that phrase, its misused and misunderstood, even by most MA people. On the rare occasion you get into a fight at a party, or at a bar, or while coaching your kids hockey game, MA may come in handy. But more often then not, if you get jumped on the street, you are up against multiple opponents, who may not have martial training, but have experience in this kind of thing anyway. Even more likely now a days is that one or more of your attackers might have a gun. no matter what you see on tv or in the movies, you cannot beat a gun.
Which brings me to my next subject, "reality Fighting". Well kids, that is reality, the reality that your martial arts, no matter how well trained cant beat the bullet, and that several tough street opponents will probably beat you to death if they need to to get your wallet.
As far as self defense goes, thats all about running away, or giving them what they want, ask any cop, these are the smartest chioces you can make.
The other bef I have with Reality Fighting is that it isnt,but many people ar eusing this phrase in place of 'truth'. Like if you Reality fight, whatever that is, you are doing it the only way, when it is just another way.

Sensei Kunz - I believe your only mistake is saying that there ' are 'arts' that cannot defend themselves. Most of the arts out there will work just fine, its the people and the training that makes the difference.
Most schools, and yes even JKD schools suffer from watered down, misunderstood ways to train and approach the martial arts. Most of the people out there who are teaching, shouldnt be.
As for forms, they are not ways of fighting, agreed. As for most fights going to the ground, that is an often misunderstood and overstated case for a popular movement in the martial arts. Most fights dont go to the ground because most street fights end in the first few seconds. The simple fact is most people arent tough enough to survive a street conflict or a good solid punch to the face. On occasion they do go to the ground, and I do believe it should be addressed by all arts, but it isnt the concenr most people make it out ot be. You can address the ground in several ways, by learning how to go to the ground, how to handle yourself on the ground, or how to not go to the ground.

[Rafael]

red5angel ,


Have you ever trained in Jun fan jeet kune do?

If you have not what makes you an authority to write about it ?

I am curious cause in your bio it says you have 2 years of Wing chun experince .

Can someone with 2 years of WC experience and no prior junfan Jkd experience even comment on the subject?

I am very curious about that.

What do you know about the hammer principle?

Non-intention?

Non -intention vs non telegraph .

What stance does JKD use ?

what are the 5 ways of attack and defense in JKD?

What are the basic footwork priciples in JKD?

What are the era's in JKD and what makes them different from one another ?

How about footwork ? What type of footwork does a JKD man use ?

What are the main arts that influnence JKD ?

What is the criticle edge ?


2 years is good time in WC . But is that enough to comment about JFJKD?

It's okay if you don't know the answers to the questions .

Just undestand there a lot to JFJKD you do not understand.

Have a great day


RF-

[rogue]

So let's recap. JKD peeps can criticize, malign and dismiss things that they don't understand, were too lazy to work at or didn't learn correctly do to the ever present bad instructor.

Just undestand there a lot to "fill art in here" you do not understand.

CLG, Clarify your statement, "These days I train primarily for self-defense.", please?

Do you train by having someone sucker punch you in the solar plexus, or nose or crack you over the head with something and then respond? Probably not. Or do you start from a face off while wearing protective gear? Probably yes.

I'm with Red on this, the terms "self-defense" and "reality fighting" are over used and are more for marketing school memberships than describing what they do.

I have a lot of respect for many people in the JKD camp, but most of the techniques taught are great for getting into a fight and not self defense.

[Sensei Kunz]

Quote:

"So let's recap. JKD peeps can criticize, malign and dismiss things that they don't understand, were too lazy to work at or didn't learn correctly do to the ever present bad instructor. "

This is a given! It is obvious that it is common knowledge that there are many instructors in all arts that are not qualified to teach any art. Unless you are well trained in an art, then and only then can anyone make this assesment.

Quote:

"I'm with Red on this, the terms "self-defense" and "reality fighting" are over used and are more for marketing school memberships than describing what they do. "

There is a difference between street fighting and the norm of martial arts, no question! I currently hold three black belts in three tradiontal arts and not one was taught in the realities of street fighting. I will give you the fact that I earned the last one back in the late 70's. Hopefully, things have changed today?

Quote:

"I have a lot of respect for many people in the JKD camp, but most of the techniques taught are great for getting into a fight and not self defense."

This statement is absurd. JKD trains primarily for street fighting with no holds barred. It best prepares you for the street confrontation. Yes, if a fight is about to take place, we do not pull any punches, we consider it an all out war!

I personally believe that any martial arts training does better the individual for combat. However, many are not trained in the fear of human nature once it is a reality. There is more to than just training in technique and form. There are many more aspect to consider regarding application.

Sensei Kunz

[apoweyn]

actually, i think rogue brings up a couple of really good points.

first, to rafael, rogue's right. there are plenty of people in the JKD camp that dismiss styles knowing less of them than red5angel knows of JKD. so you could stand to be a little less sanctimonious about the whole thing. second, from lengthy discussions with red5angel, i can tell you that his first allegiance is certainly to wing chun, but that he's not closed minded. please bear that in mind.

next, to sensei kunz, rogue's right to my mind. if JKD practices knifefighting, it very often tends to be what black jack refers to as knife fencing (squared off) rather than assassination (also black jack's term, to describe being unexpectedly stabbed at from behind, etc.) to my mind, the latter is more likely with regard to 'street fighting' than the former. or self defense, if a person prefers that term.

scenario drills, three on two sparring sessions, improvisational weapons simulations. all of these would seem well placed in a course genuinely devoted to street fighting.

personally, i like the idea of JKD more from a philosophical standpoint. i don't find it particularly more realistic than many other arts.



stuart b.

[rogue]

<<"I have a lot of respect for many people in the JKD camp, but most of the techniques taught are great for getting into a fight and not self defense." >>

"JKD trains primarily for street fighting with no holds barred. It best prepares you for the street confrontation. Yes, if a fight is about to take place, we do not pull any punches, we consider it an all out war!"

Thank you for agreeing with me.:D

[DelicateSound]

Firstly Sensei Kunz, I would like to say thank you for acknowledging my post on Page Three. After taking the time to read your extensive article I feel satisfied with the high level of interchange in the latter stages of this thread :rolleyes:

As for:


JKD trains primarily for street fighting with no holds barred. It best prepares you for the street confrontation. Yes, if a fight is about to take place, we do not pull any punches, we consider it an all out war!

Is that really unique to JKD?! I think not. Pick a football hooligan. Any one of them. Do you train 100% power with no pads, allowing every single move? "Football-hooligan Fu" does, so none of this holier than though **** OK? :D


Rafael: I can answer every single question directed to Red5. Would you like to debate it with me? You make out that because he's had no direct experience that his viewpoint is rendered irrelevant. I think not. Everyones viewpoint is important, be it from a WC perspective or otherwise. Attacking a persons background is bull**** OK.

Pick an element of JKD. GO on, any one. We'll have anice friendly discussion. :)



Apoweyn:


personally, i like the idea of JKD more from a philosophical standpoint. i don't find it particularly more realistic than many other arts.

Too ****ing right.

[Rafael]

<Rafael: I can answer every single question directed to Red5. >

Good for you ! Would you like a pat on the head ? Did I even direct this to you ? By all means answer the questions if it makes you feel better.

But why should you feel you need to answer those questions if there not directed to you ? What are you trying to prove?

Well it won't prove anything to me. I think more important son you may be trying to prove something to yourself ?:)

<Would you like to debate it with me? >

Debate what ???? They were questions If you study only Wing chun you cannot answer these questions correctly .

<You make out that because he's had no direct experience that his viewpoint is rendered irrelevant.>

Well how is it not ???WC is a core point of JKD . What you get eventually in your JKD may not look like WC at all to the plain eye.

More questions for you to ponder.......

In WC do they use western boxing techniques ? Fencing foot work ? Strong side forward ? I think not . It's a different animal ...sorry ..I train both styles extensivly and know this as a fact. This is not to down grade WC . Wc is a great art . I would only be putting down my own roots. But WC is not JKD. How would it look & sound if a JKD guy went on to tell a Wc guy what WC is all about ? The JKD guy can have a little perspective. Do you see? So in a way yes he can have some base perspctive. But if he is not training JKD ?????????????



<think not. Everyones viewpoint is important, be it from a WC perspective or otherwise. Attacking a persons background is bull**** OK. >

Okay the only bull@@@@ around here is your holier then thou attitude . Please Do not lecture me or talk down to me . I do not stand for that.


Another example:
It's like me doing western boxing and then saying I know Thai boxing and never trained in it and never doing it .


RF-

Yes feel free to answer all those basic questions. Again only you can answer why you have a burning disire too.

[Rafael]

I think Red5angle is an up and coming guy. In conversing with him I see his intention and ambition to progress in his study of WC. I was not putting him down in any way.

The questions were put there so he could see there are diffrences. And if you do not know the differences or understand them you must then learn too.

He is a bright enough guy to have figured that out.


RF-

[DelicateSound]

Debate what?

The article on JKD and the subsequent topics contained within.



Well how is it not

Everyones view has some weight to it, from whatever perspective. Especially regarding the status and purpose of JKD, you would think that your perspective would be far more inclusive.

[CannonFist]

Some have the impression that traditional systems rely alot on forms.

However some traditional systems themselves regard this over reliance on forms as something untraditional. Instead these "traditional" systems rely more on practising certain core movements with its many combinations and permutations which is not unlike shadow boxing. Two person drills and conditioning exercises are also emphasised. The form is merely the abstract blue print of what is passed down from student to teacher in these traditional systems. So in fact these traditional systems regard it more of a "modern mess" instead of "classical mess".

In arnis/kali, I suppose you would regard Tatang Ilustrisimo as a very traditional arnisadores. He scorns at the modern theatrical and showy arnis and tournament sparring. His arnis is pure fighting.

Or using traditional bagua as an example, Tung Hai Chuen taught different things (and forms) to different students based on certain core principles, which is not unlike JKD. The core is of course the single palm change which many permutations can be developed. However in modern times the bagua has been *******ized into set forms, very beautiful forms mind you if you are talking about the routines set by the Chinese government.

[DelicateSound]

It has more to do with teacher and student than with style.

[red5angel]

Rafael - you are correct, there are many aspects to many arts, JFJKD included. I may have jumped the gun a little, if it works for you then so be it. I am not familiar with the fighting principles intimately, we have some guys who used to train before coming to wing chun (how do you like that subtle jab ;) ) and I have done some sparring and such with them and so have some of the basic ideas down although no where near a thorough understanding of the art.
My only contention was that with JKD it seems alot of the things that Bruce Lee railed against is quickly becoming a part of JKD.
Regardless Rafael, I think JKD is a viable fighting art, my main contentions are the 'reality fighting' type tags meant to make an art more valid for marketing. Most schools I have seen, atleast here locally that have that label generally arent really. rogue really said it best.

Rafael, just to make it clear, Wing Chun is as Ap says, my first and only art, but I dont buy into that wingchun is better then JKD crap. Its better for me but may not be better for you!

[Rafael]

I understand Red,

Take care and good training to you. :)


RF-

[red5angel]

You too Rafael!