what art for bodytype

[killorbe]

my question is this,,i have studied boxing and kenpo karate, im fairly short guy 5'6 and about 195 with lots of muscle mass, what arts best suits my size and weight, im currently sparring with one guy who is about 5'9 and and holds a black belt in kenpo,, and another artist who holds a black belt in tang soo doo.

[JusticeZero]

Short, pretty massive.. I'd look into a throwing art like Judo or Shuai Chiao or similar (I'm sure others can suggest other throwing arts i've missed). The shorter height will help you get under an opponent's center of mass to throw them, which turns it into an asset, wheras if your limbs are scale, your size is a slight liability in striking. The fact that you are strong and massive on top of that just lends weight to the throwing side.

[Budokan]

Body type has no correlation to MA style. The moment you start thinking that is the moment you start limiting yourself. And is that what you really want...?

[Liokault]

Body type makes a huge differance.

Go with a grappling art.


And if Budokan thinks that body type makes no differance then why is nothern and southern kung fu so differant? Ill tell....the guys in the north tend to be much taller and so kicking and longer range attacks work better for them.

[JusticeZero]

Body type does make a difference. It's not the end-all, but it can definately affect what techniques you can use effectively.

[apoweyn]

i think budokan's point (and it's a good one) is that any body type can make use of any style. and that it's a fool's errand to limit your choices of art/training method based on your body type.

yes, a shorter, more muscular individual would make a good wrestler. as would a taller, lankier person. likewise, a shorter boxer can make that style work to his advantage just as a taller one can. look at mike tyson for example. (yeah, he's a sociopath and i personally don't think he should be allowed to box anymore.) he's shorter than most of the fighters in his weight class. logic might dictate that a taller opponent with a longer reach would be at an advantage. but if the guys that tyson fought earlier in his career had an 'advantage', it certainly wasn't obvious.

likewise, i saw a young guy fight in a point fighting tournament recently. point fighting. the match goes to the first contact, virtually. so you'd think, again, that the taller guys would have the edge. but this kid had developed tactics to evade, close on, and maul his opponents. and he won his division.

size doesn't dictate style in the general sense of style. it doesn't preclude taekwondo or boxing or whatever else. it only shapes how you make use of that style to your best advantage.

as for the argument about the difference between southern and northern styles of gung fu, consider this: the relative size of these people may or MAY NOT have been a factor in the evolution of gung fu. but assuming that it did, you're talking about thousands of practitioners in each region of china. predominantly, they may have been short or tall. predominantly, they may have favoured low stances or high stances. but we're talking about an individual now. not an overall picture. and any individual can take any style and find the elements in it that will and will not work for them.

it may not be the black-and-white answer you might have been hoping for, but there you have it.


stuart b.

[guohuen]

I used to have a sparring partner your size and build that was a Wing Chun practitioner. Infighting ability and power. Nice combination.

[JusticeZero]

Oh, I agree, you can make it work for you. But typically, short stocky people do arts like judo because it's easier to use the attributes they have. And since that was really the only bit of data we were given, I couldn't easily move outside that.

[Liokault]

Ok if you want to train in a martial art to develope inner strength or disipline ok it dose not matter what you train in but if you wish to exel you need to train in the right art for your self. In your case that means no long rangr stricking arts. No boxing no taekwondo.

Try judo jujitsu bbj wrestling etc....or maybe southern kung fu....but only if you ever want to be able to use your atr.



For your body type i would advise judo.

[stoli]

I think one important point is what do YOU want from your training ?? That will influence what you want to learn and THAT should be the prime motivation behind what art you choose.

Best single point made so far on this thread is that you must never think that your body type can limit your training, whilst certain body types are more suited to certain arts anyone (and any body) can learn any art.

[apoweyn]

liokault,

i don't believe that. not for an instant. again, i submit to you that by that rationale, mike tyson should have been mauled by taller boxers. that point fighter i watched should have been mauled by his opponents.

a shorter taekwondoka will need to develop strategies for closing with an opponent. that's it. once he's inside his opponent's kicking range, he'll still be at his optimal kicking range. perhaps he's also at his opponent's optimal punching range. but his kick is stronger. so he develops tactics to evade punches and deliver kicks. or he closes further, so that he's past his opponent's optimal punching range but still in his. and so on.

in short (excuse the pun), if a shorter fighter develops tactics to close distance, they can often put themselves at an advantage in a striking game. and while i agree with justicezero that a shorter fighter could excel at a grappling art, i maintain that they could excel at absolutely any art. it's only when shorter fighters take the word of taller fighters that they are truly at a disadvantage. if they take the time to develop tactics to make their height and build work to their advantage, there shouldn't be that disadvantage. and in my experience fighting shorter people, there hasn't been.


stuart b.

[Liokault]

How tall is Tyson? I have a feeling he is not as short as you think he is.

Ok taking this thread to extreams a 5 foot 5 inch tall guy weighing 250 pounds is not going to be great at back fliping into the splits in wu shu (if you can call modern wu shu a martial art) but that same guy is going to be great at sumo.

[Merryprankster]

Liokault,

Talking out of your arse. Badly.

[Liokault]

Hows that then?

[Merryprankster]

Ap already covered it.

You suggested wrestling type styles because he's short and squat. Then you said "no long range styles."

Ridiculous assertion.

Plenty of short and stubby boxers. Plenty of long and lanky ones too. Same with kickboxers. Plenty of long and lanky wrestlers and short ones as well, same with the Judoka...

The trick is that they USE DIFFERENT TACTICS. Same techniques (barring individual preference), different tactics to apply them.

It's all about how you use what you've got. Ap covered the whole thing. Read his posts until they make sense.

Limiting yourself in your choice of MA's because you have the "wrong body type," is absurd.

[Merryprankster]

Ap already covered it.

You suggested wrestling type styles because he's short and squat. Then you said "no long range styles."

Ridiculous assertion.

Plenty of short and stubby boxers. Plenty of long and lanky ones too. Same with kickboxers. Plenty of long and lanky wrestlers and short ones as well, same with the Judoka...

The trick is that they USE DIFFERENT TACTICS. Same techniques (barring individual preference), different tactics to apply them.

It's all about how you use what you've got. Ap covered the whole thing. Read his posts until they make sense.

Limiting yourself in your choice of MA's because you have the "wrong body type," is absurd.

BTW,

Mike Tyson is 5' 11.5" and 218ish, at least, he was, back in the day. His reach is listed at 71". This is around 3-5 inches shorter than most modern heavies, and the reach is anywhere from 6-10" shorter than most modern heavies.

Another example of a guy who has been successful with a short reach and stubbiness is David Tua. Not exactly a beautiful boxer, kinda slow and plodding, but he takes what he has and does well with it. He comes in at 5' 10" with a reach of 69".

You HAVE to understand--these guys are shorter and stubbier than most of the people they fight. While they aren't short, they are short by heavyweight standards, in much the same way that I am a bit tall at 6' by Light Heavyweight standards (Amateur Boxing).

Again, it's all about what you do with what you've got, not "which art will give you the most for your body type."

[DelicateSound]

Any art is adaptable, you may just need a little more persistance in certain things like closing and sh!t.


I'm 6'0 so I'm perfect almost for general striking and grappling, but I want to do Wing Chun - which so I've been told is better for shortarses.


So what - I won't let that stop me. If I persevere I know I'll be OK.


Then I'll put those vertically challenged folk to shame. :D

[Liokault]

I am not suggesting that he should limit his choice of arts but the fact that he has asked this question leads me to think that he is looking for an art that wouls suite him.

I am also not suggesting that he can not ever be good at any given art.....but i stand by my statement that if he chooses an art that is short range/grappling he will become good much faster.

its just useing your nateral gifts.

[Merryprankster]

I still think that it's kind of a pointless question to answer. Getting good at a style isn't dependant on body type. Ever. There are four guys at a Kenpo school I know that are all badass. And they are each built REALLY differently--solution--they all use different tactics.

[LEGEND]

Do u have KO power??? Well then u should be ok as a striker.
If not u better have another option like grappling cause if u're striking the opponent and he's not going down...u're in trouble.

[apoweyn]

liokault,

the fact that the original poster asked the question doesn't mean you have to answer it. if you believe, as i do, that the question is never going to yield the right answer, then it's better to try and explain why it's the wrong question.

there was nothing in the original poster's description that suggests that grappling is an inherently better choice. that may not be as simple an answer as was hoped for. but if people with more experience can teach people with less experience to ask the right questions to get the results they're looking for, then we've done our job.


stuart

[Liokault]

apoweyn


"if you believe, as i do, that the question is never going to yield the right answer, then it's better to try and explain why it's the wrong question. "

But i do not belive its the wrong question. i think its a very good question and i stand by my answer to it.

there are no arts that he can not do but he would be very much better of especialy from a practical point of if he took up a martial art that suited his body type.

[Merryprankster]

Counterquestion:

Liokault--can you tell us why a body type is wrong for an art? Give some examples--beyond the ones we've discussed. For every example of technique/tactical limitations you discuss, I bet I can come up with a perfectly plausible counterargument w/regards to techniques and tactics to show that the art still works FINE, you just have to adjust how you personally use it.

[Liokault]

"Liokault--can you tell us why a body type is wrong for an art? Give some examples--beyond the ones we've discussed. For every example of technique/tactical limitations you discuss, I bet I can come up with a perfectly plausible counterargument w/regards to techniques and tactics to show that the art still works FINE, you just have to adjust how you personally use it."


I could give you lots of examples and im sure that you can give me lots of counterargument w/regards to techniques and tactics but telling a hugely built 5'6 guy that he can be a great kicker is miss adviseing him. Ok one day he may well be a great kicker...one day in the far future....way befor he became a great kicker he could have become a great grappeler/puncher.

I think that most arts can be ok for most body types but this guy has a quite extream body type and his choice of art should take that into account if he ever wants to use it on a practical level.

[Merryprankster]

Hm,

I have a 5'9" 230 lbs friend with a good front snap kick, good back kick and good side kick.

And he uses it when he gets inside on somebody--and as a stop kick. It jams them.

Will he ever be a great high kicker. No. But we're not talking about Wushu competitions.

I know another who is 5'10" and 160--fights outside with the same techniques to keep people from closing the gap.

Will he ever be good on the inside? Probably not as good as the big guy! But so what?



Same techniques. Different personal style.

[guohuen]

Exellant examples MP. My friend Mark is like the first example and I'm like the second and we use the techniques exactly as you described them. Same techniques different usage.

[Liokault]

Ok lets take this to extreams.

A 5'5 guy 150 pounds. How "good" will he ever be at sumo?
Now im not saying that this guy should not train in sumo but he will never be very good. He may well get a great deal from his training but will never...never be a sumo winner.

Ok 6 foot tall guy. 450 pounds and 40 percent body fat. How "good" will he ever be at modern wushu (if we are still calling that a martial art)?
Again im not saying that this guy should not train in wushu but how good will he ever be? If he ever becomes good how much effort will it take against how much effort to gain a similar level in sumo for this same guy?

[Merryprankster]

You've picked two SPORTS:

One in which there is NO wieght division--Make a weight division for him and he might be a fine Sumo wrestler. Are you going to tell me that De La Hoya isn't a good boxer just because he can't beat David Tua? Totally different body types, yet, (shockingly!) both successful boxers. Teach De La Hoya some kicks and throws, and I'm STILL putting money on Tua.

Wushu is a "form sport." It's not about beating people up. The person you described would never be good at looking graceful and pretty. But that's not the point of MA w/respect to fighting. That man doesn't have to look graceful--he just has to hit somebody hard enough to knock them down and run (waddle?) away.

40% body fat is hugely unhealthy--a person that fat wouldn't be a good ANYTHING, except eating, so you kinda picked a bad example. Sumo wrestlers aren't that fat. They're BIG, but not THAT fat. Train I'm not calling them svelte however.

Train Kaio, Chiyotaikai and Takanohana in a kicking style for a few years and I really think you'd be unhappy on the receiving end of same.

[apoweyn]

liokault,

"But i do not belive its the wrong question. i think its a very good question and i stand by my answer to it."

er, i was explaining my position, mate. not yours.

now, on to your position. a 5'6" guy has every chance of becoming a great kicker, yes. and in no more time than it would take him to become a great wrestler. the only reason such a person would fail to become a great kicker is that he has a teacher who tells him he never will. a good teacher would work with him to develop tactics that allowed him to get in close and then use his kicks to good advantage. and that is precisely what any good teacher should convey to any good student.

i'm 6'1" and not particularly big. am i never going to be a good wrestler? or will i succeed, but only after a lifetime longer than it took me to be a good kicker?

i'll be a good wrestler. i may not lean toward the same tactics and techniques that smaller, stronger guys will. but i'll be good.

unless, of course, you're suggesting that tall people will always have the advantage. and, again, i'd have to disagree.

and there's nothing 'extreme' about the original poster's build.

"Ok lets take this to extreams."

okay, let's do that.

"A 5'5 guy 150 pounds. How "good" will he ever be at sumo?
Now im not saying that this guy should not train in sumo but he will never be very good. He may well get a great deal from his training but will never...never be a sumo winner."

i wasn't aware that we were discussing winning competitions. in competitions, people are matched by weight class. and there's no reason why this 5'5' 150-lb. wrestler wouldn't win against a 5'11" 155-lb. wrestler.

but i'm guessing that you're picturing said fighter ('shorty') being pitted against konishiki. now, give shorty a good background in grappling, put him back in the sumo ring with konishiki (or anyone sumo wrestler sized) and see what happens. he still ain't winning that sumo match.

now give shorty a good background in muay thai. is he going to win the sumo match now? nope.

but could he defeat the sumo wrestler? certainly. in the various incarnations of UFC, no fewer than three sumo wrestlers (perhaps four) have been defeated by guys obviously much smaller than them (gerard gordeau and keith hackney, for starters). they did so by striking. likewise, royce gracie defeated dan severn (a much, much larger opponent) using grappling. and marco ruas vs. paul varelans (about 400 lbs. if memory serves). ruas (the far smaller of the two) won by... kicking. hit and run until varelans couldn't stand anymore.

now UFC isn't reality. we all know that. but it is a readily accessible illustration of smaller guys against bigger guys and given access to a relatively wide range of techniques. and it is evidence that smaller guys have defeated said bigger guys using both striking and grappling styles.

how did they do that? if it wasn't a question of using the tactics and techniques available to them in such a way as to overcome size differences, then what?

"Ok 6 foot tall guy. 450 pounds and 40 percent body fat. How "good" will he ever be at modern wushu (if we are still calling that a martial art)?

Again im not saying that this guy should not train in wushu but how good will he ever be? If he ever becomes good how much effort will it take against how much effort to gain a similar level in sumo for this same guy?"

it's interesting to me that you've picked two performance arts. one, a sport with very stringent limitations on technique. the other, an aesthetic pursuit. now if we're talking about san shou, 6' 450-lb. guy is going to develop tactics that favour his build. he's not going to get taken down as much as i might. and he sure as hell isn't going to get blown off the lei tai as much. he'll get tagged, certainly. so he'll need to work on his guard. but if you're telling me that he'll be qualitatively worse, then that depends on what sort of shape he's in. and then we're talking about conditioning, not build.

now, back to shorty. 5'5" 150-lbs. if he learns sumo, he will certainly learn a thing or two about weight distribution, balance, etc. and he'll probably be able to manhandle taller, lankier guys like myself. any limitations he suffers from that experience will stem not from his build but from the limitations of technique inherent in the style. and they're the same limitations that caused the downfall of the regularly-sized sumo wrestlers in the UFC.

so, i submit again that a smaller, built person will have no significant problems applying any given style if he and his teacher are wise enough to apply tactics that are geared toward his strengths. and that is true of any one of us.


stuart b.

[Liokault]

I picked 2 "performance" arts as they were the most extream i could find.

And some one else said pick an art with weight classes. What if he dosent want a sport art?

Also why should he go into an art and then have to try to pick up tactics to make that art work for him (i.e work around the arts short comings for his body type) when he can go into an art that he will not have to madify at all?

[apoweyn]

liokault,

who told you to pick an art with weight classes? wasn't me.

"I picked 2 "performance" arts as they were the most extream i could find."

then perhaps you should pick your examples based on applicability and not extremity.

"Also why should he go into an art and then have to try to pick up tactics to make that art work for him (i.e work around the arts short comings for his body type) when he can go into an art that he will not have to madify at all?

anyone in any art has to pick tactics that make the art work for him. that's not a shortcoming. it's the practice of a martial artist taking responsibility for his own progress.

if i learn BJJ from a shorter man, is it a shortcoming of BJJ if i use different tactics than he does?


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Liokault--you're making absolutely no sense.

Wushu is an MA of form ie, how pretty you can make something look. That's it. It's not about fighting. As such, it has no place in this discussion. That's a straw man you're setting up so you can knock it over. Unfortunately, the discussion is about an art for fighting, so even though the straw man is tipped over, you're still back at square one. My friend Ant will never look pretty doing forms, but he'll beat your ass on the inside.

Sumo is a sport without a weight class. Read my Tua and De La Hoya example until it makes sense.

If the guy doesn't want a sportive MA then he doesn't have to do one. That doesn't mean he can't use whatever art he comes across.

What you are trying to do with the "let him pick something he doesn't have to adjust," argument is ludicrous. You're trying to paint a broad brushstroke as if to say "TKD guys fight on the outside with kicks, so if your short you're screwed." That's absurd. What we're saying is that you choose an art, and you wind up developing a personal way of using it. IE, the shorter guy can win if he learns to close the gap properly and jam his opponent. You seem not to grasp the idea that a fight is a relationship between two fighters, and the one who wins is generally the one that is better at executing his gameplan against the other.

Let me try to hammer in another example:

I have a friend who is shorter than me, stronger than me, very fast and explosive, and less flexible. As such, he wrestles on the outside, looking for quick shots and duck unders and avoids the tie up.

I'm taller, slower of foot, with longer limbs (levers). I have developed better sensitivity than he has and am a better counterwrestler who likes to tie up.

Which one of us isn't "wrestling?" After all, there's some "way" wrestlers fight, right? Since our personal styles and builds are so different it sounds like ONE of us must have "adapted," the style in some way when we would have been better off doing something else.

[Liokault]

"I have a friend who is shorter than me, stronger than me, very fast and explosive, and less flexible. As such, he wrestles on the outside, looking for quick shots and duck unders and avoids the tie up.

I'm taller, slower of foot, with longer limbs (levers). I have developed better sensitivity than he has and am a better counterwrestler who likes to tie up.

Which one of us isn't "wrestling?" After all, there's some "way" wrestlers fight, right? Since our personal styles and builds are so different it sounds like ONE of us must have "adapted," the style in some way when we would have been better off doing something else."


But whice one of you "wins"?

Again i reiterate that im not saying that any martial art is off limits to this guy or that almost any art he chooses he can not be good at....im just saying that if he gets into an art that fits with his body type then he will have an imediate advantage.

[apoweyn]

and i'm disagreeing with what i feel to be a gross oversimplification. if killorbe wishes to act based on your opinion, then let him. but i personally think he's doing himself a disservice.


stuart b.

[Liokault]

Well i think he is making the best use of his tools and his time.

[apoweyn]

by being painted into a corner by his own body? nah. i still disagree.

[Merryprankster]

Which one wins? Which ever one of us executes our game plan better.

We're about even. He has more wrestling experience than I do if that helps.

Here's another example:

Lennox Lewis is tall and lanky and uses jab cross a lot while fighting on the outside to win.

Mike Tyson is short and stocky and uses a weave in style of slipping combined with a peakaboo guard to get in close and pound his opponent with uppercuts and hooks.

Both have been champions in their art.

Very different mechanics involved in each.
Very different styles.

Which one isn't boxing? I mean, there's a way that boxers fight right? And since these guys look COMPLETELY different from each other, right down to the foot work, one of them has to be "adapting," boxing instead of boxing, right? And yet, they were both very very good.

Here's another example:

I have a buddy who is an MT guy that's very fast. He kicks from the outside and uses a lot of distance and movemnt.

I have another buddy who isn't as fast. He's awfully good in the clinch though. He uses his skills to get in close and clinch, then he murders people with knees.

Which one isn't the Muay Thai fighter? I mean, there's a way that MT fighters fight right? And since these guys look COMPLETELY different from each other, right down to the footwork, one of them has to be "adapting," MT, instead of "doing what they're supposed to," right?

How about this one?

Royce Gracie is known for his guard work. He plays a very relaxed guard game and isn't known for pounding on his opponents.

Rickson Gracie, on the other hand, has a more smashing style, where he mounts his opponent and beats on them before he works for a submission attempt.

Which one isn't doing BJJ? I mean, there's a way that BJJer's fight, right? And since these guys fight COMPLETELY differently and have different bodytypes, one of them has to be "adapting," BJJ instead of "doing what they're supposed to" right?

[Lightning Vortex Seiryu go]

which style matter does it not...
the mind is the most powerful weapon
and greatest, its where it all begins,
the body is a physical tool from which
your mind manipulates.:p

[MS2006]

Ok so u say that body shape doesn't matter. Well here is a good example (with weight divisions). So u r saying that a 5'4 (abnormaly short for that division) , 128lb, 8th grader built like an over weight oompa loompa has as good of a chance of beating an apponent 5'8 (normal height for thaT DIVISION, 128 pounds, 8th grader biult like a tank as he does of beating the oompa loompa? From my experiences in wrestling if that is the case the oompa loompa is going down. If u are built like the oompa facin a kid like that (which is a normal wrestling build for that age and division) u pretty much have to have him on his back and smother him to get a pin which probablys the only way he could win it. And first he has to be down which u most likely will not be fast or strong enough to take him down and then when he does he will probably try to pin u and it is hard enough getting up alone with that build without an extra 128lbs on your chest. So basically if that is the scenario u r screwed if u r the oompa loompa type fellow.

[Stacey]

while its true that you can use any art...certain arts...like mantis concentrat on getting to the side and back using grabs, elbows, knees and throwing.

Go with 8 step preying mantis.

[Merryprankster]

MS2006--

I have a friend who is 5'4" and was a successful college wrestler at 134.

If you are talking about a pudgy, out of shape guy, then you are talking about a pudgy out of shape guy. It doesn't matter what weight and bodytype at that point--out of shape loses to in shape, 99% of the time.

I might also point out that 8th graders are at a very "in between state." Some of them are just barely shaving, some are 3 years in. Physiological development is very different at that age from individual to individual, whereas the relative variation among reasonably fit adults is far less so---so you picked a bad example.

[killorbe]

ok,, 5'6 195 pounds, dont know exact bodyfat percent probably 15 or so percent,, i train in my kenpo style 4 days a week i spar, use heavy bags, shadowbox. I also lift weights 2 times a week let me rephrase my question a bit more. im fighting in a sparring match a guy that is 6'3 almost a foot taller!Im a good kicker but im not a very high kicker to get my leg up to this guys head in a match, his legs of course fly over me,, doing axe kicks, crecent kicks and the such,,basically when im in his punching range he is in my kicking range, so im just trying to see how i can use my low level kicks to him. i know i can easily take out his knee caps,, but i find it hard to hit a big guy in the body with any kicks,, although, i also sparred with a guy who is about 5-9 and landed som good kicks to the face. I guess maybe it is just the guy im sparring with,, he covers his body well and i cant hit it with a kick,, I end up rushing in and trying to get him with hand techniques. I cant blast his legs he could get seriously injured, i just thought my exess weight might make it hard for me to do kicks, since i weight as much as him , so that is why i wanted to no if a should just stick with a low kicking style cause of my weight.sorry im rambling so much. i also heard that the fighter shamrock is a short guy,, and wiondered if he studied a striking art of martial arts,, if anyone knows? thanks for all the informative info!!!!!!!

[Merryprankster]

5'6" and 195 isn't unreasonably heavy, to my thinking. I have plenty of guys in my weight class that are that height or maybe only an inch taller and they do just fine.

You need to work on closing the gap. There are lots of ways to do this, and they vary from style to style, and venue to venue depending on the rules.

With your reach disadvantage, you're going to get hit because you have to fight inside. It's that simple. The trick is to make him pay each time he tries to hit you, because when you are inside, you can unload while he is jammed up.

So, basically, you're going to eat some shots on the way in--you can minimize the shots you eat by choosing appropriate tactics--for instance, you can leg check an incoming round kick and step in (placing you inside his kicking range) throwing lead hand shots while slipping and weaving (to avoid the head punches that will follow), while half-stepping closer with every slip and weave. If you can get him backing up straight, you'll probably win the exchange. Win enough exchanges, you win the round :) In a real fight, win the exchange and then run like hell :)

For the record, anybody who tells you you can fight inside without getting hit is full of crap.

But that's just one example. There are other ways to accomplish the same goal--but essentially, you're going to have to work on ways of closing the gap while minimizing the damage you take.

[Leimeng]

~I would suggest you explore Bagua Zhang to supplement your studies. I have no doubt that the ability you will gain in movement will aid you tremendously. Additionally, the mindset and strategy employed by Bagua is vicious to say the least. Having good footwork and body placement will assist any martial artist in a combat situation.

Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

[Liokault]

With your reach disadvantage, you're going to get hit because you have to fight inside. It's that simple. The trick is to make him pay each time he tries to hit you, because when you are inside, you can unload while he is jammed up.

thats wrong. Im only 5'9 and in somthing like 15 full contact fights (based on me fighting inside) I have only taken 2 shots to the head that i can remember...and nither of them were hard.

Choose the right art for your self and train right and their is no reason to eat shots.

[Merryprankster]

Ok, liokault. You win. Tap out from exhaustion. I'm not going to bother to address this any more. 15 full contact fights and you only got hit in the head twice while on the inside?

I DO however believe that they weren't hard--that's what inside fighting is all about.

You're either fantastically good or your opponents were tomato cans.

Cheers.

[Liokault]

Really if your fighting on the inside and your oponent is taller than you then you should have every advantage and you should be forcing him to back pedal with a guard up fast.

If your shorter than your oponent and your any good at punching than their is no reason to be getting hit on the inside.

My favorite example is a boxer who used to come to our class a few years ago. He was huge like 6'8 or so and well built. when we spared he very seldom ever got a hit in as once i was inside i just kept the straight punches going in with the odd hook till i could take him down (he was not a great boxer but he was a huge boxer).


Ok, liokault. You win. Tap out from exhaustion. I'm not going to bother to address this any more. 15 full contact fights and you only got hit in the head twice while on the inside?

Some of the guys i fought were quite good but its always hard to tell. My oponents all tend to be much taller than me as i fight at 75-80 kg normaly and most guys in this bracket tend to be 6' or so.

I also did not say that i did not get hit in the head but that i can remember only 2. I have probably taken more than that but they have not been good shots as i ALWAYS remember the good ones. And thinking back now i have had more time i can say one of the shots out of the 2 was not from inside!

[apoweyn]

"If your shorter than your oponent and your any good at punching than their is no reason to be getting hit on the inside."


then your bodytype hasn't hindered you as a striker and has indeed afforded you an advantage once you learned to apply the right tactics.



stuart b.

[Liokault]

Indeed my body type is perfectly suited to both my martial art and my style of fighting.

I would strongly discourage any one tall and thin from Tai Chi

[apoweyn]

liokault,

"Indeed my body type is perfectly suited to both my martial art and my style of fighting."

and it sounds as if you were frequently the shorter fighter in striking encounters. and you were not disadvantaged at all by that.


"I would strongly discourage any one tall and thin from Tai Chi"

why? because it would be more difficult for a taller person to root? easier for a shorter person to unroot a taller person?

[Liokault]

why? because it would be more difficult for a taller person to root? easier for a shorter person to unroot a taller person?

No because the whole art is set up to give a huge advantage to the shorter guy over the taller guy rooting aside.

[omegapoint]

If you have two functional arms/hands and legs/feet, with a working brain, you can do whatever you want. Get good at something then add-on. There really is no specific bodytype for any fighting style.

Some shorter, huskier cats are good boxers and strikers (Mike Tyson, Andy Hugg). Some tall, lanky, thinner cats are good at grappling (Royce, Ryron and Renner Gracie). Dudes and females of all shapes and sizes can kick arse both ways.

Pick a base style, then move on after you understand as much as you want or need. Later...

[apoweyn]

liokault,

"No because the whole art is set up to give a huge advantage to the shorter guy over the taller guy rooting aside."

how so? i'm genuinely curious. watching footage of william c.c. chen, he didn't look short to me. just the opposite. he looks relatively tall and slight. same with cheng man ching (sp?)

i would have thought that through the proper application of stances, a taller person would be able to sink and then rise to uproot an opponent.

i'm not suggesting that the taller guy has an advantage. i think i know what you're saying about uprooting. but i have a difficult time believing that the taller person is at a disadvantage. but then, i don't believe in that idea period.


stuart b.

[Liokault]

I do not know anything about william c.c. chen and as far as I am concerned Cheng Man Ching is a bit of a joke.

Also I said nothing about up rooting.


Im just calling it as I see it. In tai Chi (as taught to me) there are many things that do not work against (much) shorter people.

Now if you want to look at some one whom i feel has a perfect build for tai chi go look at Cheng Tin Hung.

[apoweyn]

fair enough. but now that we're actually on a productive discussion, how about actually providing a little more than that. why is cheng man ching a joke? (i have no affiliation to him myself, so you aren't going to offend me.)

you didn't say anything about rooting. fine. i'm not allowed to introduce rooting to the equation? do you think a smaller person has the advantage in breaking someone's root?

what, specifically, wouldn't work on shorter people? (and if you say 'uprooting', i'm going to thump my head on the desk.) :)

what was your teacher like, physically speaking?


stuart b.

[mixxalot]

I am the same kind of build, short, and stocky, 5'6" and 165lbs,
I study CLF (Choy Li Fut) which combines both northern shaolin footwork and southern shaolin stances and hand forms. Great style. Another good martial art for short stocky people like us is Wing Chun because it uses plenty of upper body power and low kicks. Good luck.

[mixxalot]

Oops, forgot to mention that Hung Gar is another most excellent
style for stocky shorter folks. Especially tiger/crane forms in Hung Gar!

[roughnready]

it dont matter just fight

[mixxalot]

there is more to martial arts than just fighting. After all, if all that mattered was winning a fight, then I'd just pull out a gun and end it then and there. No, martial arts has a greatness in developing body mind and spirit. Self defense is important but not the only reason to learn it.

[wall]

As much as it is very politically correct to say that all arts adapt to all people, different MAs have in fact often been developed with certain body type preferences, to the point where disciples where selected based also on size shape (or size shape of the parents, if the disciple was a child).
These characteristics where at times purely a consequence of the average size of the local population where the style developed, at other times they where a specific choice for combat purposes, or more rarely dictated by the size of the person who invented a style.
Somebody made an extreme, but simbolically good, example using modern wushu and sumo.
But even looking at the MAs practiced by most in this forum, whilst anyone can adapt to both southern and northern styles of CMA it is obvious that a longer limbed, thinner, more wiry built person will adapt better to the latter, whilst a bulkier, shorter, more muscular person will be more suited to the former.
Therefore, whilst anyone can reach THEIR best in any art, which might indeed be a very high level, to be a really elite practitioner (however you measure that, be it competition or self-assessment) genetics relating to bodyshape play an important part.
This of course applies to any physical pursuit: at 5'11" I can become, through constant practice, an excellent basketballer, but it is rather unlikely I will reach Shaq's standards, simply because the sport is designed with his genetics in mind, not mine.

Wall

[No_Know]

If it's a matter of leverage, force going down onto a practitioner or straigt on close to the waist can be received and done some thing with so that the receiver stays standing. But up force can take a person off their feet.

Last night, small class I was holding the bag. There was an inside joke about knocking over the water bottle. The length of your legswas going above your waist which was above mine (as I held the pad (bag). Thats when you knocked the bottle. Bot down or straight at me near waist level I could manage those. the up angle took me with it. I didn't understand what to hold on to. Perhaps if I Knew T'ai Chi Ch'uan I could have done better even up angle. But a Taller person's waist might already be higher so, they can be gotten under better.



Style: move to the open side of your opponentblock closest leg kick move in some then fake a front kick with pointing of the knee up; pivot towards their kicking leg; roundhouse or back kick or sidekick.

[monkey mind]

killorbe - I'm going to sidestep the whole argument, interesting as it is, and suggest you look into SE Asian arts. I have a fairly compact body, I practice Kombatan Modern Arnis, & I find that the footwork, the focus on flow, and the hand techniques seem more naturally suited to me than other arts I've studied (I currently also train in chin na & traditional taoist korean arts). Many varieties of the SE Asian arts are out there, and many are complete in teaching all ranges of fighting, though I will say that legwork is one thing that's been underemphasized in my Philippino training. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

[apoweyn]

no know,

good observation. but in truth, the thing about knocking over the water bottle on the floor behind you wasn't really designed to illustrate anything about power generation, angle, or anything else. it was just designed to give sasha and ginger some sense of intent. they're good at hitting the air shield, but there's no intensity. i wanted to give them a reason to hit it harder. that's all.

:)



stuart b.

[Kope]

I really don't understand this debate.

Honest, I don't.

No coach I know would tell a 7' tall, 150# kid that they have the body for wrestling. Neither would any coach I know tell a 5'4" kid with rock-solid physique and a low center of gravity for his height that he'd be a natural at basketball.

That doesn't mean that there are some very good, even great wrestlers who are tall and lanky, and Mugsy Boggs showed us what a short guy can do in basketball at the top level.

But that also doesn't mean that those attributes didn't have to be adjusted too in order to succeed.

6' and shorter basketball players are rare at the top level because being short in that sport is a disadvantage that needs to be overcome by having exceptional skills in other areas of the game.

If you're 6'8" you can have average defensive skills. If you're 5'7" you can't be average on defense or you'll be a liability to the team, you need to be exceptional in that area of the game.

Likewise, if you're a 7' tall, lanky wrestler you can't afford average hand speed, or you'll loose too many matches to just not getting the leverage you need in place first. You need to excell with your hand work as a 7' tall wrestler or you won't be any good at all.

It seems to me that within the MA world there are MA's that are more suited to one body type than to others. However, the differences in the MA world are relatively small at the level most people practice them, so it is true that you can do quite well with any body type in any style.

One can master any style with any body type, but that isn't to say that there won't be adjustements one has to make due to mismatches between body type and stylistic demands. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that for some people, they could potentially achieve more, faster, if they pick an art more suited to their particular physique.

None of which says that they can't excell at any martial art, just that the "bag for the buck" of effort can be higher in some stylesl than in others.

[Flattop Monk]

Killorbe, here's my 2 cents. My dimensions are not much different than yours. A very good style for a short, strong man is the Hung System. It is a style not talked about much on these forums, but the training is grueling. It is well suited to a short bull body type. It takes advantage of strength more than some other styles. One thing about Hung Gar practitioners is that when you get good at it, you hit hard. Seriously hard. And the strikes carry over well into ground fighting. Hung Gar strikes are devastating from the mounted position. Not to mention that your blocks hurt while trading strikes standing up.

I agree completely with the people telling you the grappling arts would be good for you. I am sure you can pick people up and throw them. But Striking is important as well. Hung Gar also includes a lot of Powerful Claw techniques, that also work well from the ground. If you are rolling around with an opponent, and you can dig your fingers into one of his joints like pliers, you can really ruin his day.

There are similar styles to Hung Gar out there as well, Fu-Jow Pai is one, although it is hard to find outside the NYC area. You have nothing to lose by walking into a good Hung Gar school and watching a class.

Good Luck in your training.

[apoweyn]

kope,

the coach is concerned with winning games. not with your development (except in so far that it relates to winning games).

besides, basketball is a game. it's played in only a finite number of ways. and you said it yourself. players can find ways to tailor their style to suit their build. with something that has fewer limitations, the amount of room for tailoring is greater.

you said you don't understand the debate. but you also recognize points on both sides of the argument. well... there's the debate.


stuart b.

[mantiskilla]

i think the only difference with different body types in a particular style is that you will possibly, at a higher level , gravitate towards FIGHTING techniques that feel more suited to you, and that could be based on body type. the reason why i put "fighting" in caps is because i was differentiating from form techs., which may be different, as some things are hidden in these.:) good times.

btw Apo, where in MD are you from? i grew up there.
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[No_Know]

"Ok taking this thread to extreams a 5 foot 5 inch tall guy weighing 250 pounds is not going to be great at back fliping into the splits in wu shu (if you can call modern wu shu a martial art) but that same guy is going to be great at sumo."

Great sumo but also great Samo...Samo Hung. Big/fat people can be exceedingly flexible And graceful. Samo Hung is an example of well distributed weight person doing back flips and wushu moves (better when younger).

Original poster:

How do you like to move? What Tactics do you like. This more than Style for you. Once you understand your preferred type of tactics you can find a style. If you looked for style by body type you would be hindered by comfort if those were tactics with which you were uncomfortable. Tactics hen style, by here, evaluate if body type is a significant factor.


The rest:

There seems to be a like mind of short then best as or good as wrestler.

Judoka juijitsu-ists need hip to hip~ contact short is no help besides slipping in. Short makes leveraging situational when woring from a strikers limb. As the bodies would be so far away. execution time of a technique gets longer reducing feasibility of bothering to try throw. Throws from locks are more feasible. But like the T'ai Chi Ch'uan person who has long reach who intercepts and offbalances you from a distance. The short jiujitsuka takes opponents reaching intakes wrist whenempty then punishes taller opponent. But staple techniques of body throws are near useless to execute for shorter juijitsuka.

Shorter taller juijitsuka, are they tailoring Juijitsu to fit them?
No. Juijitsu is comprised of blanket techniques. Different sizes/lengths/skills require different tactics. Juijitsu adresses this. Fighting Kung-Fus address this.

Tall T'ai Chi Ch'uan playercan intercept earlier, a plus.
Short T'ai Chi Ch'uan player is lesslikely to get force from underneath to uproot self. Good, not better merely good.

5'11" Basketball has aspects based on positioning, strength and mobility of stance and speed. World record for High Jump in Track and Field event Olympic is theoretically above six feet. 5'11" plus armlength to wrist plus momentum plus strength in legs plus resistance on going up muchly adresses dunking and lay-up. Shooting is also a way to score. Passing is a valuable technique under positioning. 5'11" could be a great basketball player in NBA even. Not playing the way others have tailored the play to them. But by playing the game and playing Smart.

All the styles that assign body type theoretically refer to doing specific techniques. While a System can get known for certain techniques or styles it might have more than one technique or style. Being smart and realizing the aspect you can best utilize should not be a place of disgrace.

The grappler as shorter needs to travel further through enemy territory to be effective ish aggressively. No plus except to mobility game

Shorter means stronger--body levers.

To a major range, There are No disadvantages.

Perhaps some might say very very

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by mantiskilla
i think the only difference with different body types in a particular style is that you will possibly, at a higher level , gravitate towards FIGHTING techniques that feel more suited to you, and that could be based on body type. the reason why i put "fighting" in caps is because i was differentiating from form techs., which may be different, as some things are hidden in these.:) good times.

btw Apo, where in MD are you from? i grew up there.


mantiskilla,

now this, i agree with. you're definitely going to gravitate toward certain tactics and techniques based on your build. but i think that those tactics and techniques can be manifested through most martial arts. i feel like there's a lot more personal control to it than these 'what style?' threads tend to convey. but that's just my opinion.

where in maryland am i from... well, i was born in england, moved to severna park when i was 10 (just outside of annapolis, as you probably know). went to college in saint mary's city. lived in laurel (one year), columbia (three years), montgomery village (two years), millersville...

i usually consider myself to be from annapolis. how about you?


stuart b.

[mantiskilla]

grew up in Catonsville, outside Baltimore. went to college at MICA. havent been back in a few years. did much beverage consumption in the Fellspoint area :D
good times:)
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