What would be your method of combat for a professional Muay Thai fighter?

[blacktaoist]

Ok guys, Most of you know about the claim of tai boxers beating down Chinese Boxing practitioners back in 1922.

So lets talk about today (2002) internal practitioners (Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing Yi.) If you had to fight a professional Muay Thai fighter, what strategy would you utilize to beat him. How would you test his weapons, determining his strongest and weakest points?

I myself would try to close the gap on a tai fighter, tie up his hands in a clinch and try to lock his legs. Getting in close and throwing him to the ground would be one of my objectives. But if its extremely difficult to utilize throwing techniques then I would just neutralize and simultaneously counterstrike his attacks.

My major combat strategy for beating a Muay Thai fighter would be a combination of striking, locking and throwing for me to be effective.

What would be your method and strategy?

[Repulsive Monkey]

It would be like for any other opponent: stick,follow, issue.

[Ray Pina]

Just like anyone else: Face the hands and grappling directly, run from the kicks. By run, I mean break away while countering to the kicking or supporting leg or both. Don't quite have this down yet as it is just being introduced to me, but I undertand the principle, just have to make it mine now.

To try and get in on, or block with a superior method is looking for trouble I believe. One kick from those guys and your arm is gone. Must have good wedging, the ability to run and reach them with a kick though they can't reach you. Very important to be able to utilze the full body, extention (back leg). This is where truly understanding walking the circle comes into play, not just spending time walking in circles.

[Nexus]

RM nice response! However I thought it is worth mentioning that sticking, following issuing is only one method of dealing with agression. Sticking energy is one of many we learn. You can just as easily lead by walking away and so forth.

[looking_up]

I've been pondering a similar issue that should fit in this thread:

Ways to counter a fast roundhouse kick to the legs/side.

This is a good question, I think, because a roundhouse kick is
a very common kick that almost anyone who has had a little bit
of training knows. I would say a good side kick is a close second,
but because of it's linear nature is theoretically easier to defend
against.

[Phantom Menace]

Close the gap and take them down. Neutralize the strikes by moving to a superior angle and distance and close in to a superior position and take them down as hard as possible. Get into a clinch move to the side and then try to get the back. Suplex if you can, if not do a rear double leg take down. From the rear double leg takedown go into a leglace position and rain down palm strikes to the back of his head and then go for a choke.

Stay away from a frontal clinch because you will be in danger from elbows and knees. Go to the rear ASAP.

You have to be good at measuring distance.

[Ray Pina]

Straight direct force gets inside of rounded force (finds the balls and soft tissue of the upper-inner thight too.)

Also, a good rule, let the force move you. Hit while in transition.

Closing the gap and such practices sound good -- but how? How do you close the gap on a bigger, well trained guy with a great reach -- who specializes in maintaining distance. How do you close the gap on someone who trains by kicking tree trunks? Do you just take the kick on the way in?

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist nice practical response! I know your sifu very well, When I have time I have to come down to you guys school to spar a little. Last time i talk to your sifu in chinatown, he told me you guys be sparring down there.


Repulsive Monkey> It would be like for any other opponent: stick,follow, issue.

To stick, follow , and issue is easy to talk about, but hard to do in a real situation. From my own experience of sparring many other martial Artist, it will not be easy to stick to any good martial art fighter, let alone a Muay Tai Fighter.

Try fighting a good Hsing Yi player, Most Hsing Yi practitioners that I know are not going to let you stick , as soon as the fight begin, these guys are going to attack fast and hard. Have you ever push hands with a professional Hsing Yi practitioners? Their whole push hands method is base on not letting their opponent stick to them, if you try to stick, they will issue(attack) then follow(stick) and finish their opponent.

No disrespect to you Repulsive Monkey, I respect your response, but I am talking about professional Muay Tai fighters , Guys that been in the fighting game a long time, I 'm not talking about part time fighters here.

I don't think it will be easy to stick to these guys, I feel today internal martial arts would have to come up with a better method then Stick,follow, and issue.

Can you give a better description of how you would utilize this theory of Stick,follow, and issue on a Muay Tai fighter.

For a example what if, you are fighting a Tai Boxer that is fast and powerful and is very good at inside fighting, and good at utilizing his elbows and knees. :D

[Mr.Sleazy]

As someone who trains MuayThai maybe I can add a bit.

I think you would not want to get close-range, because MuayThai is very strong there - knees and elbows, the Thai Clinch, and takedowns. We practice this stuff pretty hard.

Probably the best defense would be to wait for the roundhouse kick (they are real powerful but are slow, and are usually part of a combo), counter it, then take them down. Then its ground and pound time.

To counter against the roundhouse, you want to move sideways with the kick, trap the leg with one arm and post on the knee with the other, then instantly spin them in a backwards direction while pushing down on the knee.

[Water Dragon]

1. Cover up and rush, let the Thai Fighter go for the plumb.
2. Pray that my Taiji is good enough to not take a full power shot and work for the throw. (Front lifts amd hip throws seem to work good on Thai Fighteres, but watch those **** elbows!)

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist-How do you close the gap on someone who trains by kicking tree trunks? Do you just take the kick on the way in?


Your strategy should be always mental. Physically, you should fight all your opponents the same. If you fight a big guy you fight him hard to the inside. If you fight a smaller guy you fight him hard to the outside. When I say you fight them all the same I mean you attack them all hard and you attack the same spots eyes,liver, kidneys, etc...

A fighter bigger then you you should fight to the inside because he has the advantage of distance over you and can hit you. Theoretically you want to stay away from his weapons by keeping to his inside.


EvolutionFist -Do you just take the kick on the way in?

Hell no!! Come on now EvolutionFist you practice Ba Gua Zhang right. You should know how to deal with kicks. Kicks are very easy to deal with for a Ba Gua Man.

You can evade and redirect with footwork, or you can intrercept your opponents kick and simultaneously counterstrike, this will enable you to offset his balance while redirecting your opponent point of stability.

The best method I was taught was to avoid any head-on confrontations with your opponent, by evading to his side and counter attacking simultaneously.

[Shooter]

Very good questions blacktaoist. I pretty much asked the same questions of Tai Chi guys about MMA fighting and got the same answers as put forth here. :)

When I read the sense of urgency that some have expressed in getting to a particular range or hoping to avoid certain weapons, they aren't giving any account of Tai Chi's mental/emotional component. It's all being talked about on a tactical level based on cognition and theory. Against a pro Muay Thai fighter, those ideas are a crap-shoot at best. 50/50 chance of success or failure. As blacktaoist wrote, easier said than done.

Stick and follow were mentioned, but with no details. Although it does apply on one level in regard to what's been talked about here, it's not the same stick and follow as what would be applied in relation to the 5 Steps.

Outside of the chatroom, I've yet to see Tai Chi's positional strategies being discussed at all here, let alone beyond theory.

[Ray Pina]

Ha, BlackTaoist!

Nice offically meeting you here, I've reda your posts and have been in discussion with you but never one between us.

Don't worry, those weren't my questions, I was pondering the mindset of those using that mentality as a response. I have to admit, I find it quite rediclous. Look at the how to fight a bigger guy post too, same rediculous type answers. Train harder, shoot in. How do you shoot in on a bigger guy who can hold one hand out and keep you at bay? (again, I do not really want to know because I have no desire to implement this sort of technique.)

Me, I do fight everyone the same way -- as if they were bigger then me.

My aproach? O do not rush in and try to jam them -- at least not right away. Whatever you reach out with I hit. I do not go for the head if you're punching my head, I hit your forearm, that's the immediate threat and the closest target for me. By doing this, I can actually hit someone (their forearm) and they can't hit me. Then I wait for the other arm. Now I'm connected. Use gung fu from there.

Kicking, well, I described what I'm learning now above. But even in my S. Mantis and W Chun days I did not implement the methodology most mentioned. SOunds too dangerous. Hands are for fighting, kicks are for killing.

I've heard about you through one of my training brothers. We were doing some boxing for a bit but some injuries popped up so now we're back to kicking and walking the circle -- going deeper.

I hope we get back to the boxing soon. Teacher does not encourage fighting out among old training brothers because we do not want the technuque ou there. At the same time I want to start hitting some full-contact tournaments this fall -- I just got over a bum knee.

I'm usually there on Tues and Friday nights. Maybe not this Tues due to work. If you know my teacher you know he's always down. He always tells us to bring people down who question the principles.

I don't like doing that myself to be honest. I have a lot of respect for my senior brothers, but I think its our duty to step in on these matches so he can view the beauty of his technique from a nice comfortable chair. He should not be the only one beating these people.

I've been with him for 15 months now. I would say I understand the hand techniques somewhat -- of coarse not at a high level, that will take time. The one thing about me though is that I'm always down to test. If you come buy to box drop me a line first, this way you know you'll have at least one guy down to go. Again, you'll have to forgive me though, because I am no example of my master's effectiveness. That will take some time -- time I'm willing to invest.

I finished my rounds of looking, I consider him my last stop.

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist>I was pondering the mindset of those using that mentality as a response.

I had a feeling that was what you was doing.:D

When I come to vist u guys I let you know.
peace.

[Ray Pina]

Nice. I have to admit that I have never seen any Ba Gua other then my master's in person. I didn't seek him out neccessarily for the style's he teaches, just that his name just kept comin gup. Then I fought one of his past students and that was it -- I had to meet the man behind that technique.

At this point I'm more interested in E-Chuan then Ba Gua, because it is my master that I respect and not the name or way of any one particcular style. E-Chuan is a culmination of his knowledge and experiece. Very interesting man. I like his teaching style.

Wierd, it reminds me more of my childhhod karate days in newark then it does the gung fu I studied out on Long Island. Maybe because its new to me and I'm in awe.

Anyway, be well. Hope to see you soon.

Ray

[Phantom Menace]

Hey Evolution Fist

Do you mean I Chuan or Yi Quan instead E Chuan. How could Yi Chuan remind you of Karate? That sounds strange. I learned Yi Chuan and a lot of it is working on postures and movements.

I just visited the web site and it was strange. What does E in your teacher's E Chuan stand for?

Yi Quan was developed by Wang Xiang Zhai. It translates as Mind Boxing or Intention Boxing. Yi = intent or mind. Yi Quan is stresses the essence of movements over techniques.

Could you describe your teacher's E Chuan a little bit more?

[blacktaoist]

Hey EvolutionFist, Tell your Martial art brother (eight Tiagram) to call me, he have my Home number. One of my sifu martial art brothers is now teaching Ba Gua Zhang, in chinatown on wednesday from 700pm to 900pm, the class is all martal. I want to take eight tiagram to met this Ba Gua Zhang master.

[Esteban]

Hi,

it's a good question. Well, they say "if you can't stand the heat . . .", but seriously. I understand Mr. Sleazy's point about being too close to the muay thai guys elbows and knees. But, we then seem to be saying "don't get too close" and "don't be in the range of his kick." Anyway, even then, why not get somewhere "in between" then, such as making sure to intercept his kick --when it does come-- right above the knee? Ok, if we start with the assumption that he'll break whatever is in his way, then I'm afraid the battle is lost. As a brother who came up in the city, you know that there are guys who use baseball bats. The same principle applies to them, or nunchaku, or a stick. Part of what I'm saying is that "going in" to the right spot is what one will have to do in a ring. Shucks, how do muay thai fighters fight each other. I don't think many of them think that they "won't" get hit. Once you accept that you will (i.e., give up hope that you won't) and begin to concentrate on what you'll do when you get the opportunity, hey, it's a horserace. Sure, there are guys who kick treetrunks. (Bruce would say "but they don't kick back.) Then again, there are guys with legs as big as tree trunks. I think waiting for the kick to go by is fine too. But, what really really interests me is the assumption that someone who studies a martial art like tcc can't kick or, worse yet, doesn't use his elbows and knees. I mean, those are some of the most powerful weapons in anyone's arsenal. You don't have to be a muay thai practitioner to use one effectively. You've got to be fairly close though. My point is that if you assume that the opponent can beat you inside and outside, and you still want to fight, then "extraodinary" measures are called for, usually metal. BTW, I think you'd be absolutely right in saying that almost no one who just maintained a static pose like in those pictures would "stand" a chance. I can't say anything when you laugh at it. First, and foremost, there would be *no* set pose for a tcc practitioner. The other thing that hasn't been mentioned, so far, is that, traditionally, the tcc practitioner was supposed to practice a lot of specific neigong exercises. I'm sure you've heard of "Golden Bell" and "Golden Body", etc. Mama raised me to get out the way as much as possible, but the resistance to injury is supposed to be part of the training. Sifu Rudy would be able, if he hasn't already, about the demonstrations of "internal strength". Part of it, of course, is in the relaxation. I'm not saying that anything people do in tcc makes them invulnerable --no one is, that's the point --what I am saying is that a tree breaks when it can no longer bend. The Gracies made a living on eating that kick. Just watch the head :) Anyway, ain't no guarantees that come with this. If it makes sense, fine. If not, that's cool too.

Respects,
Esteban

[jon]

I actualy spar reguarly full contact with a MT fighter who was trained in Thailand from an early age and even won a championship, although he is quick to state the hot contender was knocked out early in another match by a fluke from hell.

I actualy dont have THAT much trouble with this guy provided i stick to a few basic rules...
One avoid the mid range if im directly infront, his midrange game due to his kicks is VERY powerfull. He is also obviously an excerlent boxer.
Hate to say it but its basicaly the same for inclose and infront, he knows well how to elbow and knee and throw.
Hence i do what he basicaly does not, i work his back...

He is actualy supprisingly easy to get around the back of as its simply an illegal tactic in nearly every sporting martial art there is.
Its also not toooo hard to work him off the sides and use angular and circlular movements to offset any power advantage he holds.

There is however a couple of important factors to this...
For a start we a similar match for size both roughly the same build and close to the same hight. This makes for an easyer match in some respects due to him not having a huge strength advantage. He is also not 'professionaly' fighting any more although he does teach and obviously trains a LOT. Still he is not in his old fighting condition, i dare say if he were, he would be MUCH harder to finalise.
He also simply is not used to my style and my habbit of stuffing with his ranges and using movements and tactics which are not used in Thai boxing.

To be honest every strict style kickboxer ive met i can get around the back of fairly easily. Its supprising how darn well this basic tactic works.

Im not skilled enough with my Tai Chi to use it effectively in sparring but i would honestly say with a Tai Chi mind it would be a nightmare. Bagua has a more aggressive and proactive mind that IME is vital to fighting opponents with such a strong upfront game.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I feel that you have not quite grasped where I'm coming from with my response. I definitely would If I didn't walk away (thought I'd just name check you there Nexus), stick, follow and issue because that would be the defeating method to choose from an internal method. Why oh why must you get semantically low by saying but yes you have to realise that he's a professional practioner?? I use that method when my Master attacks me, because I know that anything less than that and I would come off a hell of a lot worse. Why do you feel that I haven't been up against professionals before Balcktaoist? Where does your presumption come from? Fact of the matter is I have used this method against a long time Wing Chun practioner once and floored him. Apprently he had been practicing for 12 years longer that I had been practicing my art. Speed has nothing to do with it, professionalism has nothing to do with it, and Hsing -I practioners do exactly the sam as I do in Taiji and it takes many many years to hide one's own Qi and intentions because I train and doing exactly the same thing myself, so what s your point? I gave an honest reply: Stick, follow, issue. If one knows how to do these 3 things then speed and professionalism of the opponent will never be an obstacle.

[No_Know]

Brush Knee and Push; Fair Lady Plays the Shuttle; Grasp Sparrow's Tail; Single Palm Change; Phoenix posture (change); Snake/Crane (change).

[Ray Pina]

Phantom Menace, it certainly is E-Chuan.

E stands for: Energy, Evolution and Easy.

Its a culmination of all my master's knowledge. Its Inner Palace Ba Gua principles (he's 4th generation from the founder); Hsing-I; Dragon Pole from Master Lui, which actually has amazing footwork; plus general practical pysics, my master is an aeronotical engineer (or was in China).

Whatever it is, I have to say it is the most practical real technique I have ever seen.

I would never compare it to Karate, just the way it makes me feel. I have to say, Karate brings back great memories for me. Being a little sweaty tike all geared up to go, learning tons all the time and eating, sleeping and $hitting martial arts.

I didn't get the same feel from Hung Gar and Wing Chun. Not because of the styles of coarse, but the way they were being taught. Very hands off. By senior students that I knew I could beat from day one. That's kind of discouraging.

Southern Mantis made me a little more viscious is my MA mindset. Removed me from the back and forth tag mentality. Made me realize in is in, and its needs to be finished quick.

Now I am getting good technique, technique that will last me my lifetime. My master is 60 years young, very young in heart, mind and soul, and the best pound for pound fighter I've seen. He hits like a cement truck, and isn't giving me close to real power.

I'm stoked right now. Kind of like a dream come true. Funny though, how some don't notice or apreciate. Some do not give him the respect he desrves. They haven't developed a good martial eye, and are easily impressed by smoke and mirrors. They do not understand the value of the simple phrase: "Come on!."

At 60, my master invites all. No talk. Just, "come on."

Hopefully those guys will learn to apreciate what's in front of them. For some he's allways been there. I had to search him out. I've seen what's out there.

Anyway, BlackTaoist, chances are I'll see BGB tonight -- if I don't get stuck at work. Quite possible as of late. I know he's into all things Ba Gua. He's gotten stronger the past few months. I tried to put a lock on him the other day and his arm felt like a pipe.

I hope he stays with it.

[Phantom Menace]

Thanks Evolution Fist! What your teacher is teaching sounds very interesting. Could you describe some of the training aspect of it? I'd like to hear more or read more, but the web site really didn't say much only that it's for advanced students.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

The Chinese characters in our Teacher's style are "Change" and "Fist". The 'E' is the same character as the one used in "I-Ching". Our Teacher uses 'E' as the transliteration because of the things is can stand for in English, which EF has already listed.

BT- I'll give you a call either tonight or tomorrow. I didn't know there was anyone else teaching your style of Bagua in NYC. I was talking to this one guy for a while, he's from NJ. He said he was your classmate. I think his name was Wang something. I can't remember his exact name. He said he was teaching too. You know who I'm talking about?

[Ray Pina]

Phantom Menace, what we basically do is walk into class and work on whatever my master is into at the time, but is follows a basic theme.


After 15 months, this is my progression.

First started with learning shielding and proper stance (optimum pushing angle while having optimum pulling angle.)

Then we put the gloves on and you just take a beating to test your shield. Principle being, you must be able to take it at first before learning the more subtle methods of absorbing. Feel the shield. If its too much power move the entire structure but do not collapse the shield.

That's the basic. I already have sensitivity from WC and S. Mantis, did lots of Chi Sau. But I got a quick lesson on true power, where the power should be generated from. Realised how busy my hands were before. Too busy chasing around trying to get on top and all that sillyness. Completely changed my punching.

NO JABS! Weak. All power punching. See what boxers do when they are up close, hugging, the full body blows they deliever to the body. That type of punching. But it can be uppercut, hook, cross, you name it, but it all comes from the same power source, delievreed with the same powerful structure.

Then there is the basic concepts, of the palms, the principles surrounding their use. When to use, how. Not using them so much for hitting (of coarse you can) but how to use them to divert, pierce, collapse while hitting, ect. This is also a never ending study.

Ba Gua circle walking is quite different then what I have seen out there but I haven't see much I admit. The differences from what he does to what I've seen though are pretty significant. Many turn there inside foot in to the circle's circumfrence. Makes it easy to make that tunr but besides being wrong from an internal health standpoint, the cross over to kicking would be wrong to. The stepping is kicking. Hidden kick. You can walk to focus on the palms. Walk to focus on health, or walk to focus on kicking. ETB would be able to give you more on this though, he's focusing on Ba Gua.

My master loves Ba Gua. He loves Hsing-I. He devloped E-chian to beat both. He had the lucky privelage of training with both his masters at the same time, so he could bounce ideas off of both. Also had the privelege of bringing his master over from China to get it first hand 1 on 1.

E-CHuan is a funny style. It sounds impossible: We can hit you but you can't hit us. You can't reach us with kicks but we can reahc you.

I would never have believed it. I would have called complete BS on this if I read someone posting it here -- I really would. I would have challenged them on the spot and said show me. Actually I did, and the person beat me quite well and thus my search for this man.

I would recomend anyone in the NYC area to check it out. As a MA this has been the most significant opportunity to ever present itself for me.

We don't look like MA in E-chuan. Almost look like normal Western Boxers -- until we move. Very fluid, yet very powerful.

Not saying this is me. Not yet. But I'm working on it. I would be a dam n shame if this system did not flourish. My aim is to continue my study so I can start taking it out.

My first match since this training I hope will take place at the annual Won Fe Hung tournament in Chinatown.
You don't need to be advanced to take E-chuan. Just willing to learn. I have a good background, and I think he likes that so we don't waist time in teaching me how to throw a punch or a kick. Simply how to do it better.

Most important is that it is fun (though I tend to be a bit too serious in class, but I'm one of a few whiteboys and want to be ultra respectful to my master and seniors and just remain quite to listen and learn) and the poeple are cool. No egos.

Even the girls in class hit hard. So I guess an out of control ego can be put into check quite easily. And if one starts to think to much of themselves, there's always the 60 year young man who will show just how much more their is to learn.

I can't wait to get to weapons too. But first things first.

Peace
Ray

[blacktaoist]

Repulsive Monkey>Why oh why must you get semantically low by saying but yes you have to realise that he's a professional practioner??

BT)Man I don't have time to argue with you, over your statement, that I find misleading and untrue. Your claim of Stick, follow, issue in a fight, in my opinion is Bull$hit.

I have met many internal masters and practitioners, and I can count on one hand how many of them can utilize stick, follow, issue in a sparring situation, let alone a real fight.

Now you trying to tell me all an internal practitioner needs is the great-renowned Stick, follow, issue method to beat any skilled opponent. I know your joking right? But I guess you are for real because you say here:

I gave an honest reply: Stick, follow, issue. If one knows how to do these 3 things then speed and professionalism of the opponent will never be an obstacle.


BT) Now let me give you a honest reply, first speed (su du) is an important overall development for any internal practitioner, so your claim above I find untrue. speed is one of the most important elements in martial arts training. Without speed, all the martial arts techniques in the world will not help you.

Speed, power, killermindset, and speed of the mind, is what most professional Tai Boxers have, and I doubt just three concepts from in internal martial arts, Stick, follow, issue, are going to be most effective counteract.

Repulsive Monkey>Why do you feel that I haven't been up against professionals before Balcktaoist? Where does your presumption come from?

BT)From my own living encountering experience of many internal masters, instructors, internal practitioners martial artist, boxers, streetfighters, grapplers.

Like I said in my first post reply to you:
To stick, follow , and issue is easy to talk about, but hard to do in a real situation. From my own experience of sparring many other martial Artist, it will not be easy to stick to any good martial art fighter, let alone a Muay Tai Fighter.

And I stand by my viewpoint.

Repulsive Monkey>Hsing -I practioners do exactly the sam as I do in Taiji and it takes many many years to hide one's own Qi and intentions because I train and doing exactly the same thing myself, so what s your point?

BT)I don't know what Hsing Yi practitioners you spar or push hands with, But Hsing Yi method of hiding their Qi and mind intentions is not the same. $hit even Hsing Yi push Hands methods is not the same, or their way of utilizing Their mindset ,martial applications or fa chin, Hsing Yi is a far cry from Tai Chi Chuan theory and applications. so that is my pont , and its a valid point also.

Repulsive Monkey>in Taiji and it takes many many years to hide one's own Qi and intentions

BT) first of all, that is what all external and internal martial artist strive for to hide one's intentions.(martial But as I Said before, easy said then done in a real competition fighting a skilled martial artist or Tai Boxer. Hiding ones intention would be the last thing on my mind when fighting them. The bottom line is most of Today internal practitioners are not in condition to fight full- contact, most don't even practice freefighting at all. So for you to say:

Speed has nothing to do with it, professionalism has nothing to do with it,

BT)I find Your statement untrue, that most martial artist would want to giggle at. To put, today internal matial art practitioner in the ring to fight a professional Muay Thai fighter of of let say 60 fights, Would just get him killed. after all Repulsive Monkey you claim speed and professionalism of an opponent will never be an obstacle.

I see this as a very big obstacle for a internal practitioner that don't have any real experience in full contact, or was never train in the proper methods of full contact fighting. Many internal practitioners that tried full contact fighting soon discovered that full contact fighting is not easy. Today few internal practitioners are ready to step into a professional ring.

Those who tried soon discovered that full contact fighting was unlike its nonprofessional counterpart. An even larger problem is that few internal teachers today can teach students the proper methods of full contact fighting., So thats way we have today, what I call theory fighters. All theory and no real applications.


Stick, follow, issue. I don't think so. To fight a professional Muay Thai kickboxer or even a skilled martial artists, one's going to need more then skick, follow and issue in a fight.

You have your opinion, I have mys.

Best of Luck in your quest.
Peace.

[blacktaoist]

Eight_Triagram_Boxer-I was talking to this one guy for a while, he's from NJ. He said he was your classmate. I think his name was Wang something.


I have a few Chinese senior brothers, But most live in New York china town and they don't teach, I know of two classmate that live in New Jersey, not one of them name is Wang that I can remember.

Anyway let me know what's up, I have some free time, to do a few things now. so I can take you to met this master, and I do mean Ba Gua Zhang master, but you don't have to take my word you are going to see the $hit for yourself if you come.....:D


Talk to you soon

[Ray Pina]

Let me start by saying that at about 210, I think my punching is "pretty" powerful; but certainly not the most powerful. I also think I have pretty good foot/hand speed, but again, certainly not the fastest.

Now, when I beat somebody, I never think its because I am faster or stronger. But ability certainly helps and plays a role. When I score a clean, unanswered shot while boxing, its not because I'm so fast. I'd like to think its because I set it up, out stratagised the other player.

When I can score that one unasnwered shot, misdirect the counter and trap the other hand -- that is from sticking, or at least my definition of sticking: being able to stay attached to read or best estimate the next probbaly move based on available options froms ensing their body weight and position, combined with experience. You know what someone going to do in most situations. Because its fighting, there's only so much one can do -- but its the way that you do it which brings me back to my beloved technique; what I consider the most important.

Now, when a better fighter beats me, I never go back and say, "Man, he was just too fast for me."

Saying the guy was too big, that may come up. A 6'5 300lbs guy may take your blows. For me, that is quite out of my range already -- though I haven't tried yet. My best so far was a 6'3 250 S. Mantis Iron Worker. I'd take him about 35% to 40% of the time when I was training S. Mnatis with him. Honestly, I'm quite certain I'd take him with relative ease now. Not because I got bigger, but because my technique is better now.

His size, while certainly intimidating, is no longer a factor, he won't find me (and I won't be hiding behing him) either. I can say this because I have fought this man at least 20 times. Whgile I haven't fought him since my training I have fought a few older training brothers and comparing my progress to theirs these past 15 months, no comparison. I feel like they have platued, and are now working on ability only: speed, breath and muscle.

I've invested in technique, and there is no limit to that. Like a fine wine, it only gets better with time.

Just my opinion. But to date I have found it to be true.

[Phantom Menace]

Everyone in here seems like a heavy weight. Where are the 150lbs guys?

[Shooter]

blacktaoist, with all due respect, I have to disagree. The opponent's speed is nothing if you have superior timing. Stick and follow are quite easy if you know the steps. Issuing occurs naturally as a result of sound tactical movement. These are predicated off of one's listening skill, and their experiencing the common movement patterns of different fighting
methods.

I can count all of my training partners as people who can apply these ideas in a variety of combative settings. Very basic stuff. If it wasn't basic, it would go out the window in a hurry once the $#!+ hits the fan, along with anything else which requires detailed thought and fine motor-skills. It's a matter of how these concepts are understood on a mental/emotional/intuitive level, and the process of how they're trained.

[Ray Pina]

I have to admit I get a bit lost when we strat talking about Yi, and emotional minds, and intentions and leading with the Qi and mind and all of that.

It just is. I don't think of any of this stuff ever. I believe when you truly get soemthing, understand it at its core and make it second nature -- like tying your shoes -- its all just in there already. Shoe untied, bend over and tie it. Blow coming in, strike it, then strike them, then strike them again and maybe give then a swift kick in the a$$ as they go down.

Sticking, any technique, I believe comes more affective the more committed, or ballsy, one is willing to go with it. By this I mean my focus now is not on reaching out to find or build a bridge. That was my wing chun understanding.

Now I want them to come in with their attack. I want their blow to go beyong the outside gate, I want it to come all the way in just missing me chin by an inch -- an inch being probbaly just about right, though closer would be even better (not that ballsy). Here, at this range, I now have superb leverage. I don't care how big they are, at this point they have shot their load, well over extended. How easy is it to move the outstreched arm. From here, I can give a hell of a blow to that said arm too. Right in the nice soft bicep area which is close enough so that I do not need to break a strong punching shape, do not need to extend myself.

There it is. Everything is in that one simple technique of back hand blocking, lead hand punching. YI, LI, intention, chi. Too complicated. Understand the idea of what it is you want to achieve, understand the weaknesses and strenghts, and then like Nike, just do it. Do not edit yourself. Do not question yourself. At this point it should just happen. Like tying your shoe.

Of coarse, well, you can get hit. But then you deal with that with the proper method, obsorbing, going with it, actually using their advanatge (forward momentum) as your own advantage and over come.

Maybe its just because I'm new to Internal. I understand the concept behind these phrases of intent and what not. But I don;t think its something to be solves on paper or philosophical pondering, rather with the gloves on, free of conscious thought.

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist> Now, when I beat somebody, I never think its because I am faster or stronger. But ability certainly helps and plays a role. When I score a clean, unanswered shot while boxing, its not because I'm so fast. I'd like to think its because I set it up, out stratagised the other player.

BT)Now what point are you trying to make, Did I not say in one of my post replys that a internal martial artists need other methods. Is other fighting methods not part of out stratagised another martial artists.

You say:But ability certainly helps and plays a role.

BT)Is not a ability skilll, and for one to attain skill, one must have living experience.


Also you say here:When I score a clean, unanswered shot while boxing, its not because I'm so fast. I'd like to think its because I set it up,

If you set an opponent up and score a clean unanswered shot, there are three facters for this, Strategy, timing and speed.

For you to get in and out quick was speed, to make your opponent to make a mistake (set up) is strategy Also to set an opponent up one must have good timing. So a internal practitioner can have all the strategy in the world, but if his timing is not develop, he good as dead in a real fight.

Timing means meeting your object with a certain technique that will reach maximum speed at the moment of impact. So I don't care How much you think you can stick, if i'm faster then you there is no way your are going to be able to skick to any of my techniques. But if you think you can , I be happy to come down to your school and show you myself today, I have some free time.

I'm very open mind, I like to see a person stick, follow, issue in a sparring situation.

Because so far, I have not met any internal practitioner that can utilize this so called sticking skills. only a few Masters I know can do this, and I do mean few.

Now this is not a challenge, But I to see someone who is going to out stratagised me, stop my fast attacks. Or even know what I'm going to do in a fighting situation. Because its fighting, there's only so much one can do. So I guess you know my moves before I make them? This I have to See.

Let me know when You are going to be in class, Also I need to say hi to Your Sifu anyway.

Peace.

[blacktaoist]

Shooter, I don't want to agree about Chinese martial art theory, That most up here on KFO can even utilize in a real sparring situation.

What we need to do is have a KFO Tournament, for just the internal practitioners members. Then we can see who is real and who is not.

Because most in my opinion are talking unrealistic Bull$hit.

But hey, Thats just my opinion.

[Ray Pina]

Let me start off by saying that I believe skill and ability are two seperate things.

You have the ability to vertical jump 1.5 feet. You have the ability to bend over and touch your toes. The ability to punch a certain speed.

Now, someone who has a natural ability to vertical jump only 1 foot may be able to out jump you in the long jump because of a SKILL that they acquired, a special know how that levels your natural ability to where the two of you are now equal.

Someone's hand speed, a natural God given ability, may be deemed insignificant by someome who possesses superior hand skill. Perhaps by working more efficiently, by trying to control a smaller amount of space, they perhaps might not have to move their hands at all. Speed is no longer a factor for THEIR technique.

If relying on speed, one will never have to fight again. Just hang up the gloves now and invest in a radar device that can measure your and your apponants hand speed. The fastest one will win. Shake hands and go home.

As for sticking. I would not say its overtly obvious. But when a blow is in it should remain in. If it strikes an arm it should cling the best it can to continue monitering its progress, calculate and act from there. It does not look like Chi Sau (push hands) and in fact does not even have to be connected. Body position alone gives the information.

As for knowing what the other will do. Not right from the start. The initial move is an unknown. But lets just say this: You punch with your right. I block or check it with my left and punch with my right to your face simultanously. VISUALIZE THIS. Your right is checked. Here comes my right.

Is your left hand up by your throat to check my right? How did I know that?

I'd like to hear what that habd would be if its not there. Honestly, I would. This is the value in this Forum that I have been waiting for. To find someone who knows what they are doing and does something that I haven't encountered.

As for coming to class. That sounds great. No need to preempt it with a "This is not a challenge." I never look at it like that unless I'm the one issuing it. To me, its a chance to gain experince and learn. I'm still at work now -- 6:45:( -- and my chances of heading into Chinatown now are dwindling unless I'm out of here in the next hour.

But I can almost say with certainly I'll be there Friday. I usually don't get there til around 8:00p.m. Best bet is probbaly to show up later because class is not over till 10:30. But if you want to shoot the $hit with teacher, come early. Maybe we can have a break out boxing session. Sounds fun.
Ray

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist, Me and you are just two opinionated martial artists, But that's all good.

I see you friday.

P.S. the only reason I said this is not a challenge, because people on KFO seem to always for some reason take my post replys the wrong way.

Peace :D

[Ray Pina]

Na, they're just not New Yorkers. ;)

If Friday turns out to be another crazy work day I'll post here by 4:30 which means I'll be there Sat. at 2:30. But it better not be!:mad:

[Shooter]

blacktaoist, I agree. A KFO tourney would be very interesting, to say the least. :p

For what it's worth, in regard to sparring and ring-fighting, I never discuss the way Tai Chi is trained in my school from a theoretical point of view. Only what my training partners and I have proofed in the ring and on the mat. We're the only Tai Chi school in North America currently fielding MMA fighters in the public arena, and whenever we've competed in grappling tourneys, it's been nothing but Tai Chi Fast Wrestling. None of us have ever formally studied BJJ, Catch, or any other submission wrestling system. And we don't train from instructional videos. :)

A lot of theory gets bandied around on this forum, but it's all good. As the leaf says, everyone understands IMA on their own level - Not good or bad...just different.

[blacktaoist]

Shooter, Do your school have a web site, This is the first time I hear of a Tai Chi School competed in grappling tourneys. Who is your Sifu?

[Repulsive Monkey]

I find you rather quite amusing. It's always funny to see someone uproot themselves by their own attatchment. Again your prrsumptions do nothing but weaken your defence. If you only have had experience of fighting a few internalists and have beat them I would say their skill is low calibre. If you had practiced internal arts yourself for a at least 12 years I would say that your practice was poor or your teacher was low calibre. But unfortunately from what you ar intonating here I assume that you are not of the above category? If so then your argument is totally flawed!
Again I have full confidence in Stick, follow, and issue as it hasn't let me down since. The only time it has not been sucessful for me is up against a higher level practioner who's 3 abilities were more acute.
The pricinples of Hsing-I Bagua and Tai Chi are most certainly the same. Why on earth do they call them sister arts? I think maybe your understanding of Internal arts is a little lacking as this is the only way I can comprehend to your sh0ort comings Blacktaoist. If you would like some titles for literature on the internal arts I would be happy to supply them. However shouting your mouth off like that is painfully embarrassing for all to observe. Please don't do it!

[bamboo_ leaf]

Is it so easy?

I read most of these post, and I have to wonder. Is it so easy?
People are talking of using this or that but have they really put the time and effort into being able to acquire true skills. What’s the point of sparring if you don’t have them? the old guys that i know are always testing their skill, and looking for people to help them to grow. there are no losers, meeting some one who has better skill can only help to improve your own. :)

IMHO you can’t develop them though this medium. Your mind and body has to really accept that this will work or you won’t trust it. Stepping in a ring and getting pounded doesn’t help to build such high-level skill sets it only reinforces old ones.

Practice, understanding, working with people who know it, trying to develop the same skills sets through correct practice dose.

Once the skills are developed then, you have them and can do what you want it doesn’t matter. The point I would add there are things that I believe will deepen them and other things that would tend to lead in the opposite direction. fighting or sparring with out them tends to lead in the wrong direction.

Of course this is assuming that you want to have real ne-jia skill instead of just being a good fighter.
Can you have both? Yes I think so. BT, mentions that he has met many people who don’t have such skills. I would say that I too have met many that I would not agree with in their inerpretation or usage. But this doesn’t make my practice right and theirs wrong it only means that we are on different roads in this point in time.

Again is it so easy?


When ever I met people who don’t play tc the only way to show them what is different is to let them feel it. This is done by haveing them try something not by talking. The method I use is always the same. Yield to incoming force; follow out going with balanced mind body awareness and movement.
One yin, one yang. Coupled with the ability to change.

Funny thing a while back there was a post on inner training, almost all people, many here answered and trained the same things regardless of their training emphases.

When we talk of ne-jai the time proven methods work. The problem for many I think is finding real people with real understanding and skill. Being famous or a good fighter is not always a guarantee to such skill. That old guy in the park may have the things that many look for, the real question? can you see it? Will your expectations and experience allow you to see what is there, or will you just see some old person playing in the park?

in this life i have found that we tend to find what we look for.


david

[Mr.Sleazy]

OK when you are faced with a MuayThai fighter, I find the best way to defeat them is to duck under the ropes at ringside and stand outside the ring. Strangely they will not hit you in this position, except rarely. If you wish to increase your range, move further away from ringside.

MuayThai pros tend to stay inside the ring, and this can be used to your advantage. Leave them in the ring and throw chairs, tables etc at them (this is deadly FengShuei technique) then when they charge you, retreat behind handy obstructions like a referee.

[Ray Pina]

Well said once again Bamboo Leaf. Unfortunately young men like myself have a monopoly on foolish short sighted thinking.

I agree with you. I'm done fighting, I am investing in the principles of a higher order. I'll be 28 tomorrow. Old enough to undersand the importance and value of the internal, hopefully still young enough to be able to bring it to the forefront in a few years when my master deams myself worthy.

My fighting is still low-level slop, quite pathetic. And going out with it now is not only pointless, because I'll just be fighting, but my non-expertise in my master's ways will only reveal his technique -- something I do not want to do. Time. Funny, in some aspects time can not move fast enough -- K1 and getting published -- and in others I'd just like to hit the pause button and enjoy this time for the rest of my days.

O well.

Funny post Sleazy.

[Rockwood]

Hi,

Muay Thai is a very powerful martial art, I think it is pretty much the "ultimate" external style. There are very few internal practitioners that I know that could beat a Muay Thai player with equal experience, in a ring fight.

They are strong. They punch very hard. They kick very hard. They are very fast. They have a lot of conditioning. They can take lots of hits.

Fighting a professional Muay Thai fighter in a ring fight is virtually suicidal.

Fairtex Muay Thai camp in San Francisco holds open fights every month, all you need is a doctor's approval. These fights are below amateur level.

Heres an example.

http://8amphoenix.net/special/april2002smoker/april2002smoker.htm

-Jess

[Fu-Pow]

It seems to me that their is a lot of arrogance in the "internal arts". But remember "internal" (as in the 3 internal styles) is just another way of doing things, another strategy. It is not necessarily "the way" of doing things.

You may end up getting your ass handed to you by a "external" player of high skill. It's all about who fully understands their art and who understands the art of fighting (by training, sparring, push hands, etc) .

Contrary to popular opinion "external" arts are not just about force on force or the strong beating the weak, if that were the case how could these "external" arts survived and developed? You're telling me that only strong people practiced them?

[Mr.Sleazy]

OK admittedly I don't know squat about internal approaches, but as someone who trains MuayThai I know most of the counters to the normal MuayThai moves.

"Sticking" to a MuayThai attack, following it, and then "issuing", I understand to mean, in the example of a jab, latching onto the jab arm somehow, letting the retraction pull you towards your opponent, then attacking them somehow.

It seems to me that this is not a very good idea. Attacks in MuayThai are generally part of combos. I would not just throw a punch at you, I might throw jab/cross/hook, or jab/rightelbow/knee, etc... If you grab my left jab arm and move towards me, that is a great setup for a right hook or elbow right to your face because (1) you are moving towards me adding power, (2) one of your hands is jammed up sticking, and the other is getting your attack ready, leaving you with no defense. I'm not criticizing or saying its wrong, but I don't really understand this stick, follow and issue stuff - its a different jargon.

There were a few excellent counters in the video above posted by Rockwood, especially the roundhouse counter. Grab the kicking leg while moving sideways with the kick. MT people are 100% committed to the roundhouse, including follow through, so if you can control their kicking leg the takedown is easy. I did this to my 230 lb sparring partner (I weigh 175) and he went down like a sack.

I know "stick, follow and issue" is a principle, but how would it be applied, say against the clinch/knee strike?

And although MT is an external art, we are constantly told to not fight strength with strenght, but rather to have good technique, because good technique can use your opponent's strength against them. I think the external/internal thing is not so black and white.

[blacktaoist]

bamboo_ leaf,

BT)I don't have the time or the energy to argue over your statements of martal art theory that I find useless in a real combat situation.

bamboo_ leaf I think maybe your understanding of Internal arts is a little lacking as this is the only way I can comprehend to your sh0ort comings Blacktaoist. If you would like some titles for literature on the internal arts I would be happy to supply them. However shouting your mouth off like that is painfully bamboo_ leaf,

You need to stop embarrassing yourself with your mendacious tales of beating a Wing Chun boxer, who had many years over you. If that story is true, then it show just how low level the skills of the practitioners you spar, also their comprehension level of their fighting system is low.

As I look at your past few post relpys, and see all you can come up with is three words, Stick, follow, and issue, and when ask, you can't even explain or give a realistic description of your so called Stick, follow, and issue method, You are not only embarrassing for all to observe, but it also show just how low level your comprehension is of Tai Chi Chuan.

bamboo_ leaf, Your statement here show just how low level your understanding is of the internal martial arts are:

The pricinples of Hsing-I Bagua and Tai Chi are most certainly the same. Why on earth do they call them sister arts?

BT)If you train in all there as I have you would know that, the only similarities that these martial art systems have is that they all concentrate on training the circulation of Qi and building it up to a higher level, Things like a calm mind and improving one's health.

But the fighting strategy of these three so called internal martial arts are not the same. Maybe if you stop just reading books, and put in real living experience practice with some internal masters of these systems you learn something. Making misleading statements that these arts is the same is just painfully embarrassing for all to observe, and show how little you know.


bamboo_ leaf, If you only have had experience of fighting a few internalists and have beat them I would say their skill is low calibre. If you had practiced internal arts yourself for a at least 12 years I would say that your practice was poor or your teacher was low calibre. But unfortunately from what you ar intonating here I assume that you are not of the above category? If so then your argument is totally flawed!


People like you I meet all the time, making claims of high level skills, then When I met up with them, that have nothing, Now some internal practitioners are good in utilizing a few techniques, but most Tai Chi and internal practitioners I met were useless in sparring.

The only person that I met that was able to do some esoteric $hit on my ass in a freestyle fighting situation utilizing Tai Chi Chuan was Master William C. C. Chen. Thats the only man I will respect when It comes to Tai Chi Chuan. The bottom line is most people that talk about internal theory and claim to be able to utilize it, 99% of the time they are not formidable combatant for even a low level street fighter.

I never claim to be any master, or claim to have great martial art knowledge, but I 'm no new jack when it comes to fighting or martial arts, the people I beat, I feel was low level in their understanding of how to adapt to any situation. I beat most so called internal practitioners, because they don't establish realistic training goals in their quest for martial excellence, They train the same thing over and over again but rather to strive for specific goals in their training.

First of all I can tell you don't have to much experience in real life fighting. I know many thugs that will stick a punch to you face, follow as in beat down and ISSUE as in issuing their hands in your pockets and taking your money.

I was never a goody two shoes. I've had run ins with the law when I was a teen and I've had many street fights in drug zones of the 80's and early 90's.
Crack was the way to enlightenment for many brothers that I knew. Where I come from your so call stick, follow, and issue meant nothing to a bunch of drug dealing thugs who sat around selling drugs and watching " Shaw brothers flicks" all day.

You must be talking about push hands. I can respect you on that level. However, push hands is just a game. But in fighting you must be a Tai chi practitioner for 60 years to handle any hungry street thug who wants to take you out and has a killer mindset.

for you to talk of my teachers being low caliber; you must be joking. Anybody I study with was and is good or I would have beaten them. I always check hands before studying with someone.

And if you don't believe me whenever you're in the USA in New York, I can introduce you to Many Masters and experts of many races. All Internal or external experts. Some of them will laugh at sticking quotes.

It's all about realistic training my friend.

I have met a few grapplers who put me on my ass; but what use would it be to get upset. I take it and incorporate it into my Ba gua zhang.

I find it funny how people are slaves to theory and concepts of their past masters but can't even come close to anything near their standards in skill.

I could write a long reply but it is really pointless to waste my time and energy debating on a topic I know much about.

I studied with many people who can vouch for me and respect me because I'm a realist and my own sage.

One of my internal teachers gave me a jewel that will always be my motto; "life is not about discovering oneself, it's about creating oneself".


Good luck in your quest in search of The "chi". I'm still trying to find mines.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Bt,

I think you might have me mixed up with one of the other posters.
What I say in any event is based on my experience and outlook

those that have met me know.

Keep it real

david

[blacktaoist]

Sorry bamboo_ leaf My post reply was for the so- called Stick, follow, and issue Tai Chi internet master Repulsive Monkey.



Repulsive Monkey:

BT)I don't have the time or the energy to argue over your statements of martal art theory that I find useless in a real combat situation.

Repulsive Monkey>I think maybe your understanding of Internal arts is a little lacking as this is the only way I can comprehend to your sh0ort comings Blacktaoist. If you would like some titles for literature on the internal arts I would be happy to supply them. However shouting your mouth off like that is painfully bamboo_ leaf,

You need to stop embarrassing yourself with your mendacious tales of beating a Wing Chun boxer, who had many years over you. If that story is true, then it show just how low level the skills of the practitioners you spar, also their comprehension level of their fighting system is low.

As I look at your past few post relpys, and see all you can come up with is three words, Stick, follow, and issue, and when ask, you can't even explain or give a realistic description of your so called Stick, follow, and issue method, You are not only embarrassing for all to observe, but it also show just how low level your comprehension is of Tai Chi Chuan.

Repulsive Monkey>, Your statement here show just how low level your understanding is of the internal martial arts are:

The pricinples of Hsing-I Bagua and Tai Chi are most certainly the same. Why on earth do they call them sister arts?

BT)If you train in all there as I have you would know that, the only similarities that these martial art systems have is that they all concentrate on training the circulation of Qi and building it up to a higher level, Things like a calm mind and improving one's health.

But the fighting strategy of these three so called internal martial arts are not the same. Maybe if you stop just reading books, and put in real living experience practice with some internal masters of these systems you learn something. Making misleading statements that these arts is the same is just painfully embarrassing for all to observe, and show how little you know.


Repulsive Monkey>, If you only have had experience of fighting a few internalists and have beat them I would say their skill is low calibre. If you had practiced internal arts yourself for a at least 12 years I would say that your practice was poor or your teacher was low calibre. But unfortunately from what you ar intonating here I assume that you are not of the above category? If so then your argument is totally flawed!


People like you I meet all the time, making claims of high level skills, then When I met up with them, that have nothing, Now some internal practitioners are good in utilizing a few techniques, but most Tai Chi and internal practitioners I met were useless in sparring.

The only person that I met that was able to do some esoteric $hit on my ass in a freestyle fighting situation utilizing Tai Chi Chuan was Master William C. C. Chen. Thats the only man I will respect when It comes to Tai Chi Chuan. The bottom line is most people that talk about internal theory and claim to be able to utilize it, 99% of the time they are not formidable combatant for even a low level street fighter.

I never claim to be any master, or claim to have great martial art knowledge, but I 'm no new jack when it comes to fighting or martial arts, the people I beat, I feel was low level in their understanding of how to adapt to any situation. I beat most so called internal practitioners, because they don't establish realistic training goals in their quest for martial excellence, They train the same thing over and over again but rather to strive for specific goals in their training.

First of all I can tell you don't have to much experience in real life fighting. I know many thugs that will stick a punch to you face, follow as in beat down and ISSUE as in issuing their hands in your pockets and taking your money.

I was never a goody two shoes. I've had run ins with the law when I was a teen and I've had many street fights in drug zones of the 80's and early 90's.
Crack was the way to enlightenment for many brothers that I knew. Where I come from your so call stick, follow, and issue meant nothing to a bunch of drug dealing thugs who sat around selling drugs and watching " Shaw brothers flicks" all day.

You must be talking about push hands. I can respect you on that level. However, push hands is just a game. But in fighting you must be a Tai chi practitioner for 60 years to handle any hungry street thug who wants to take you out and has a killer mindset.

for you to talk of my teachers being low caliber; you must be joking. Anybody I study with was and is good or I would have beaten them. I always check hands before studying with someone.

And if you don't believe me whenever you're in the USA in New York, I can introduce you to Many Masters and experts of many races. All Internal or external experts. Some of them will laugh at sticking quotes.

It's all about realistic training my friend.

I have met a few grapplers who put me on my ass; but what use would it be to get upset. I take it and incorporate it into my Ba gua zhang.

I find it funny how people are slaves to theory and concepts of their past masters but can't even come close to anything near their standards in skill.

I could write a long reply but it is really pointless to waste my time and energy debating on a topic I know much about.

I studied with many people who can vouch for me and respect me because I'm a realist and my own sage.

One of my internal teachers gave me a jewel that will always be my motto; "life is not about discovering oneself, it's about creating oneself".


Good luck in your quest in search of The "chi". I'm still trying to find mines.

[Mr.Sleazy]

I'm really lost now. What are you all fighting about?

I thought internal arts and Tai Chi were supposed to be about inner peace and all that stuff, and arts like boxing and MuayThai were for the angry people.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Mr. Sleazy,
You said:

I thought internal arts and Tai Chi were supposed to be about inner peace and all that stuff, and arts like boxing and MuayThai were for the angry people.

Reply: You never hung out with Xing-Yi players much, have you?

Dealing with Muay Thai - I've fought some pretty good Muay Thai players. To do this you must first be in good or better physical condition than they are. Most internal players I've met ignore this important fact.

Second - I'd make sure I am plenty used to being hit.

Third: I would close. My distance would be body to body.

Muay Thai, like any art has a hidden flaw that makes it vulnerable to certain throws. And no, I'm net telling because then some Muay Thai guy will come kick my ass!

I know some Xing-Yi / Lu Ho Pa Fa fellows that use Pi Chuan to 'blast over' fast jabs, and use thier sticking to unbalance the guy as they go in. I've watched them, and it works pretty good.

Muay Thai is one of those arts that it is worth getting a little experience in to understand it. Like Xing-Yi, it is beautiful in it's simplicity.

And again, there are factors associated with fighting, conditioning and will power that need to be considered. If you understand your art and training methods it really should not matter much what the other guy does.

[Stacey]

I think a main point of consideration is that strikers think in terms or hitting objects.

IMA look at the whole body in motion and where the balance lies.

I'm not saying its one side or the other, I am talking about training focus.



For instance.

The opponent can teep, you can roll back them into the splits.


Ba gua/hsing I would also be very effectives, divert and sidestep a flury and beng chuan or double palm attacks.

When in close, I'm with water dragon, hit and get a reaction then move with it to topple them.

Follow in the jabs, when at close, ba gua step to the back, grab his head pull him backwards..slam it on something stone.

The weakness of elbows is that once slipped the leave the body open to throwing. Over enthusiastic kneeing is also the product of having no throwing worries.


BJJ/Muay Thai is a good combo, but I beleive that the power of kung fu is in its standing positioning...ie stance work, footwork and understanding of three dimentional space in fighting. Also hitting to set up for body manipulating techniques is smoother and better understood.

[Stacey]

actually the techniques of ba gua and tai chi are the same. The theory is different. They perfectly compliment each other.


Blacktaoist, speak down to others now...while you still know what your talking about..if you are continuing your training in the internal arts, then in 10 years everything you know will be superficial anyways. There are no rules of thumb. Only change of perspective from training and experience.

[count]

This thread is great, look what I missed while I was gone. There's some good stuff here, especially from the ones with the Muay Thai experience. I will add my 2 words on the subject from an "internalist's" point of view. "GO" and "Gua". Hooking and shaving. Two things can give Bagua an advantage against Muay Thai. One is strategy and Two is conditioning. first of all, Muay Thai is a rather linear style. When I say linear, I am not talking about straight lines either. I mean tempo. Bagua is not. you keep going and don't stop. Hooking and throwing and finishing or shaving and hooking and finishing. The way we train for this is effective. You can use it in your class if you want. ;) We use either an bamboo sword or rattan staff. Someone swings it at you (hard and fast) instead of kicking at you. This is excellent conditioning on your body and comes alot faster than a kick. The person swinging can come from any angle a kick might come from randomly. Conversely, you must hook and throw or shave and hook randomly. This kind of drill really develops timing, angles and if you miss there's some "iron body" advantage. BTW, while I was away, I got a lot of e-mail from another board on the subject. Let me know if "Big Ron" ever shows up :D

[maoshan]

Peace All,
I’ve read this post with a lot of amusement and astonishment.
The humor comes from the fact that there are still a lot of wana be Internet experts out there.
The astonishment comes from the fact that there are so many people screaming about skills that work that they can’t do.

Evolution Fist
The ability to stick to an opponent that is constantly on the move means that you must be as fast or faster than he. Any less it won’t work. If you can’t stick, you can’t follow to issue. That’s one point.
Second and even better point is, unless your fighting as much as hard and as often as the Tai fighter, you’ll get beat 10 out of 10 times no matter what technique you use. Practicing with your classmates at a medium to semi ruff pace. Will not help you against someone with 60 knockdown, drag out, bloody matches.
When we train, most of the time someone gets hurt. You learn from experience. Steel sharpens steel. Wood can’t sharpen steel. (Book knowledge). If you are of the mindset that Chi is all you need, then you definitely can’t use the method you write of because you don’t train hard enough. Few do today. By today’s definition, the person who trains that way would be dubbed an Obsessed fanatic. Besides most are either to busy with the rest of their lives or are to lazy and fantasize of being that good.
Those that do train that way are few and far in-between. I mean like Standing in a posture for 3hrs at a pop ETC..
Do you train like this? Do you take every opertuaty to practice a technique anywhere at anytime? If not, you cannot do what you’re talking about. I hope you do meet up with my brother on Friday,
With no excuses. Because this I have to hear about.

Repulsive Monkey
I find you amusing. It seems to that your understanding of the Internal is not of a sufficient level to think that the nei jia are all the same. The principles of Ba-Gua are utterly unique to that style.
Xing-I and Tai Ji as well. They share similar developmental aspects at the foundation level. As they advance the energy takes on that styles characteristics. EX: Xing-I blows right through you. The thought process: one punch one kill. This not Tai Ji’s way of thought. How can you say they are the same? You better do a bit more research. It’s people like you with this particular thought that put me on the path that I’m on right now. Ba-Gua is not Tai Chi. It’s similar ONLY in the very beginning. Period. The relaxed mind and the circulation of Chi is a constant in all 3 that’s all.

And while he needs no defending from me, the black Taoist and I share many of the teachers that you are trying to diss.
Our teachers are very well known and I will admit some are not known because they won’t teach the public. But of those that do the late great B.P. Chan is one, William C.C. Chen, The great Kenny Gong ETC.. These men didn’t just teach, they were and are experienced in the use of their arts, and not for sport.
As for the Black Taoist His experience fighting goes well beyond a few internalist. We love what we do. And fight to learn more because you can only feel, not watch what’s going on.
Constant Improvement demands that we fight this and constant introspection is the only way to reach the pinnacle of the art.

Bamboo Leaf
Tuff post.

What's up Count?


Maoshan

[Repulsive Monkey]

Thanks very much for your unnecessary comments. However I feel that not being so literal and being not so presunptuous would aid you in realising that I know full well that the 3 sister arts are different. Thanks for reminding me of what I already know Maoshan.
However their basic concepts are pretty much the same i.e. whole body relaxation, empty chest opening the back, suspending the head-top, rooted in the legs, not seperating the upper and lower body Qi. These are the obvious priciples that I was refering to not techniques of punching, thats not a a principle thats a technique, I feel that it is you who have misunderstood a little in a conceptual manner Maoshan. Nevertheless your knowledge ins quite superficial if you think that the concept of one blow one kill is unique to Hsing-I, what do you think they do in Taiji ? One blow one slight bruise with a funny achey feeling that clears up with a rub and a kiss? It's this kind of thinking that reassures my path that I have been on for over a decade and lets me reaslise what directions NOT to take.

[Kaitain(UK)]

rather than bickering :) it is a good topic after all

I still spar with some of my old MT buddies - obviously none of us are (or were) pro's and when we fought we were at amateur level (being 6'3'' and 18 stone meant that I had to fight guys the same size - not fun). So I'm going on the basis of a couple of friends that all do MT versus me who used to do MT but does Taiji now (3 years)

Anyway - the simple answer is you have to close them down and get to grappling sort of range. At that range I can hit harder (short range power), I can grapple far better (they don't grip and I have a better base for throwing. I can't outstrike them but I can make sure they find it hard to strike at all - whilst I thrive on striking from tie-up.

That's the simple answer :)

Explanation:

An MT fighter will rarely knock you out with a kick , and to be honest he's not likely to try and kick your legs if he knows you're going to close in (I always fired it as someone tried to back out or if I could see they were flat-footed). Only a fool throws a round kick on someone moving in on them. However - if they do it's the rear leg round kick that is dangerous, so keep moving to the opposite side/corner - generally you can take a front leg kick on the way in (not guaranteed but more likely than surviving a rear leg). Fencing strategy works well here - keep stepping back to get them to move in - there is a point where you can step in and their weight is 50/50 (i.e. it'll take a longer time for them to kick). Plus people tend to freeze up if you step in as they move forwards - they have a kind of mental targetting based on where you were when they started moving.

MT fighters use a lot of hooks and elbows - far more than they use straights - if you're good enough then you can break the circle with the straight line. Headbutts work very well - although if done in sparring expect to be buying the beers later :) If you stay at that range and don't stick you will be pummelled big stylee - sticking is not that hard in full contact if you practice it. It took me months to get it though because quite simply - it's not easy to adhere to principles when your arse is playing a tune from all the adrenalin. It's a lot easier to go back to slugging it out - at which point you'll probably lose.

As someone else said - MT guys love going toe-to-toe. You may love it as well and beat them - me personally, I start at toe-to-toe and then step to the angles - I'm constantly trying to step behind one of their legs and lock my thigh to their hip. If I get that position it's over very quickly as they can't maintain balance - and you can't throw strikes if you're unbalanced. Usually I just drive in with the knee that's stuck to them and push hard from the other leg to power a strike/push into the chest (counter to the direction my knee has driven them). From there I can get the neck easily and follow them down to the ground as necessary.

This is all great - when it works - problems that happen:
- my knee gets kicked out as I'm moving in - I look down (reaction to the hit as I stumble) and then get hooked in the face
- they get both hands on one side of my head and pull me into a knee. I beat this once by going with the pull down and rolling my right shoulder into the inside of their right thigh. I wouldn't recommend this as next time I tried it I just knocked myself out on their knee cap
- stepping behind their leg to go for the throw - if they're quick then turn very quickly to face me. This drives their knee into the inside of mine, knocks me off balance and then I get hooked in the face

This is an example of a strategy that worked against my friends in full-contact - after I did it we all stopped and worked out what I'd done. Then they worked on how to counter it. The only reason anything I try succeeds against them is because I spar a lot - I'm used to people trying to hit me, I'm used to being hit and I'm used to using what I learn in a proper test setting.

I'm only a 3 year Taiji student so I'm not exactly representative of the art :) , but maybe I do ok against MT because I trained it for so long... There's not enough time to discuss every strategy that worked and failed, and I'm not covering a lot of the MT techniques that make life hard (push kicks, jumping knees from plum (ouch). I try and get my principles to work but it's ****ed hard - when it comes off it's wonderful but it's very rare and I plain wouldn't risk it outside of a controlled environment.

My main problem with these kind of discussions in based on the spurious idea that you can have a strategy before you fight someone. You can only react to what happens in a fight - you hope that your training has given you the right answers to whatever you face, but there's no 'secret formula' you can take against a particular school.

[dz]

THANK YOU for bringing the thread back on topic, as this is a very interesting one indeed. Honestly, I got fed up with the mouth boxing and my-dad-is-bigger-than-yours kinda action before you jumped in. :)

[Water Dragon]

Just a couple of inaccuracies I'd like to point out.

You definately do not need to be faster than your opponant to use stick and follow. In fact, I use stick-follow whenever someone is much faster than me. Sticking slows the fight down. This is not disimilar to a BJJ guy using the ground to slow down the fight although the actual method is different.

Stick-follow-issue is a very valid concept but somewhat general. Stick is anything that keeps you in contact with the opponent. Anytime you are pressing into you;re opponent (usually physically, sometimes mentally) this is stick. Anytime you are going with the flow, this is follow (bobbing and weaving is an example of follow as you are moving with thie energy lines. Energy lines being defined as the possible path/angle the fist may take. Issue is what most arts call technique. Any time you go on the attack, this is issue.

I seriously doubt ay one of us here even has a chance against a professional Muay Thai guy. We're hobbyists, amateurs, we do it because we love it. Even those of us who make a living teaching do just that, make a living teaching and not fighting. Am amateur is a different story as they do what we do: work, train, and have a life.

[Ray Pina]

Moashan, thank you for your thoughts. And, though I think they were intended to scorn, I agree with you about most of what you said.

I have not had 60 professional bouts, or even tournaments bouts. I haven't "comepted" in any venue since I tunred 20. And being that I turned 28 today (my B-day) that was 8 years ago.

But that professional fighter with 60 bouts started somewhere, started with one bout.

While I am new to internal, only training with my master for 15 months, I am not new to martial arts. I began when I was 4. When I was heavy into Karate, I was the best in my class (not school -- belt and age -- and have many victories). Doesn't mean anything to me because my technique $ucked. I am aware of that. The most real fighting I have done was when I was training S. MAntis. A low key group but I'm sure you know the crew. Restaurant off of Mulberry, what is that, elizabath street? I'm sure you know the guys. ANyway, that's where I realized the importance of testing under real stress. No one famous, no trophies, just alot of bruises.

As for now, I'm going deeper and quite happy with my slow progress in these things. Your training brother said he wanted to pay my master a visit (by the way, he trained with Mr. Gong as well, always open to see what's out there -- before both Master Wongs came to teach him personally, so I am a little familiar with the techniques). While saying he wanted to visit, he alluded to the fact of sparring and wanting to see.

I am no representtaive of my master's technique, that is for certain. But your brother certainly knows my master, and I found it odd that he left him out of the mention of internalists that he respects, because from my understanding they did certainly have a run in at a park, and gained your training brothers instant respect.

I like your training brothers attitude -- though a bit rude and presumptious. But hey, at least he's a warrior and that's what we need. I'd rather see that then some Wu Shu crap. In the same regard I like your attitude.

Of coarse I told my master that someone was comign to school -- I did not know they were already aquainted. Just didn't want to have trouble on my account. Of course my master welcomes all. That is the thing I love about him most.

Problem is, my master's technique is fantastic and doesn't want a kook like myself to give it away. He doesn;t believe I have the ability to use the techniques while keeping them hidden yet., He's right I guess. As a fighter too, and it being his school, my master always want to handle things himself. That's how he got to where he is at I guess.

But the fact that you say "no excuses", is God **** insulting to me, especially since you say it from the comfort of Syracuse. I have never backed out of a fight in my life. BlackToaist does not have a monopoly on hood tales. I was born in Newark and seen it and lived it myself. Nough said. I've taken and I've given but I face my problems like a man.

So I'm in a wierd place. When your training brother said he wants to come to the school, I became defensive. In a sort of, how dare someone. Me being the way I am, I want to be the first one to have a go. One, I know I will give it my all. Even if I loose I will leave all I have on the floor. It will take knocking me out. Two, though no where neer my master or seniors, I'm a fighter too. And I want to be the one that gets int there.

But it's my master's school. I respect my master tremendously. His opinion of me, his school, means more then the immediate gratification of stroking me ego over one bought.

This is not to say that I know I will win. Quite the contrary, I know your brother has devloped a little bit of a name already. Awesome. Good for him. I don;t know him, I've never even seen him. So I can';t say anything other then that I am willing, win or loose. Of coarse I've asked (know your enemy) and found that he is very tall with a good reach. I also heard about his bouts against China's team. Interesting.

So anyway, I defer to my master in this regard. He knows best. I guess I'll just have to see what Friday brings. I'll be there, and as always I'll have by gloves.

Best day to you kind sir.

[bamboo_ leaf]

What is important ?

A little off topic but I would like to share some thoughts.

I found this out the hard way.
The thing that is most important in this life is that person that you come home to, or the ones you call friends, there to pick you up when you are down, laugh and share in the life that was given as a gift to each of us.

Everything else, and I mean everything can not compare to this. if you don’t pay attention to some things like the one you love, you may lose it. An eagles song "the wolf is always at your door”

Each of us seems to have a passion about what we believe and do, is it so important? I for one have learned the hard way. I hope others have a little more balance in their lives then I did.


david

[MonkeySlap Too]

Black Taoist said:

It's all about realistic training my friend.

I have met a few grapplers who put me on my ass; but what use would it be to get upset. I take it and incorporate it into my Ba gua zhang.

Reply: You said it. There are so many factors that play into winning, but training realistically is crucial - and that means fighting so you can find the flaws in your training, and adjust.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if somneone is a pro or not. What matters is your training. I've beaten pro boxers, but had my head handed to me by a middle-aged Iranian guy. Just like you can't get puffed up because you can beat a 'pro', you can't get down when you are beat down. Frankly, in my opinion losing is more important. Losing is when you try new things, and figure out how to work them. Losing is when you identify that emphasis that is missing in your training.

The key of course, is only to lose in class. Rack them up all there, so you are ready for the street. Learn how to win by being bold in class.

The key difference, I think between a sparring match and a street match is the emotional content. I've been around enough that it is really no different in my mind, but your friendly, neighborhood aggressor is pumping a lot of energy your way, and you need to be ready for that.

On the other hand, I could live without fighting a champion Thai Boxer. I mean really, I'd live if I didn't...;)

[maoshan]

Repulsive Monkey
If this was not what you meant then you should have made it clear, you just popped up out the blue with your statement.
As far as the one punch one kill statement, that was referring to the general philosophy of the styles as individual entities. All three are one-blow kill systems, but this is common knowledge. I addressed what you wrote, so my comments were to inform the uninitiated.

Water Dragon
I agree with you completely, but let me clarify myself,
The ability to stick to a much faster opponent requires a very calm centered person. The average person gets too caught up in the heat of combat to maintain that calm. If you can’t do A then B and C are dead. Unless you embody what the Natural Fist master Tu sin wu said: Boxing is like taking a walk. The application of any method will be shy its best efficiency.

Evolution Fist
I respect your response and have no beef with you, but regarding being in Syracuse, that is not a factor at all. I’m where I need to be, always. I’m just recently here, Born and raised in the Bronx. As some already know, I travel at a drop. So being here has nothing to do with it.
My brother and I both know your Sifu from years ago, and yes, knowing my brother, he most likely wants to spar to see what’s up. No challenge, just experience.
To insult you was not my intent. There are plenty of people that pop a lot of junk online “ I’ll meet you here, I’ll meet you there”
In fact we just had one this week while I was in the city, It didn’t happen. So please understand, I’m a little suspect at this point.

Let’s get back to the thread.

Peace
Maoshan

[Water Dragon]

I agree 100 % Maoshan. The thing is, if you put the time and effort in, the sticking and following come naturally to EVERYTHING YOU DO I got real lucky in that I found a solid Taiji lineage AND I trained push hands almost exclusively according to my teacher's instruction. I.E. I didn't push back, I didn't try to fight back, I just tried to feel and go with it. What that did is created responces in my body I don't have to think about anymore.

The head of my Shuai Chiao school once commented that I am hard to throw as I automatically adjust my center no matter how I am gripped. I never saw it at first as he still throws me around like football, but I saw it on video. I do yield automatically to everything now. Of course, I need to learn when not to yield as there are good things that come out of that strategy as well.

My point? Put in the effort to train something according to instruction and you'll get the skill. Even more, that skill will apply to everything you do. Shuai Chiao is based on manipulating your opponents structure, not techniques. The techniques themselves are representations of specific principles. Of course, I still need to go through the entire syllabus to get that, but it will come. I can be patient because I have a feeling when that skill develops and links into my sensitivity skills, I'm gonna have some fun.

I'm just rambling now of course. But I think I'm just trying to say that there is no one way to fight. If you put the time and effort into something, you'll be able to do it. If you can't stick and follow, that doesn't mean it is invalid. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you could pull off that I can't. Just don't be so cacky that you think you're way is the only valid way and everyone else who does anything different is wrong. (That was a general comment to everyone and DEFINATELY NOT directed at Maoshan)

[Ray Pina]

I hear you. No disrespect intended on my part. Where one is at makes no difference, its what's inside. By the same token, I get a lot of "I'll call my friend, he'll show you" on this board as well.

You sound like a man more then willing though. I have no problem, and view this whole scenario as nothing other than an opportunity to learn and gain experience. MY only concerm -- truly! -- is that I do not want to damage my master's credibility -- because he is incredible.

I'm young and need to trade hands with quality people. In doing that one is bound to take some lumps. Hey, this is martial arts, no? My weaknesses are not my masters. My lack of understanding is not a reflection of this man's talent. That is my only concern.

I do look forward to meeting your training brothert though. I respect all MARTIAL artists. I like to see. If he doesn't come on Friday I wouldn't even mention a thing. I know people are busy and lives are hectic. I'm in the internal world now. We're in the same city. My master believes I'll be ready to "go out" in 6 months or so. When I first started he told me, "Two years to make you a great fighter."

At 15 months, I don't know about great, but my hands are as solid as they have ever been. If I can get my footwork to a comparable level by 2003, I believe my master will be right.

He quickly followed that up though, with, "But a lifetime to be a martial ARTIST."

Best to you.
Ray

[Ray Pina]

Bamboo Leaf, you're a wise man.

You're right ... to a point.

I have a lot of aquaintances, a few family left, and a handful of people I would consider friends.

Those that I love and love me know one thing about me, I'm ME. And that is quite a simple thing. When the waves are good -- I surf. Sorry about parties, or movies or dinner, but when there's waves, I surf.

I also want to get published and am finishing a book. That means when my tiny writing room door is closed, don't knock, don't come in, don't do anything. Sit down, make yourself at home, get some food, get some drink, help yourself to a pipe -- just don't knock on that door.

When we are together though, well, then you have my undevided attention. I don;t care about the good looking girl in the corner, or who's doing what with who, I enjoy the time together and want to go deeper into the others heart, mind and soul.

Martial Arts is like air, its there when doing everyhting. It's my first love. I can;t wait to finish this book so that my focus can be more narrow.

The ones I love understand this. Its never affected a true relationship of mine, only weak, surface ones.

My brother will miss my birthday dinners and what not because he's fly fishing and that makes me happy. A girlfriend may go away on vaction for a few weeks and that makes me happy too. I never try to bind anyone. Peple have to be free -- or resentment builds up.

In my limited experinece, I have found the ones that have the hardest time dealing with this sort of thing is the ones that don't have soemthing yet. Their "soemthing" is bringing you to a movie, bringing you to a dinner date. They are very needy, they can't understand the enjoyment of time alone.

I have a hard time in these type relationships. I like ones where we can be together, and have to say nothing. Equally enjoy what's taking place at the time in our own head space.

At the same time though, like you said, one has to apreciate the ones that care about them.

You sound a little down. I hope all is well. Actualy, you're still alive and typing so all is well. YOu know it. When one door is closed, another is open.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'd like to add onto Water Dragon's soliloqey on sticking.

True, you must remain a decent presence of mind in order to pull this off. True it 'gives' you something if you can mantain it effectively.

But it does something else too. In Japanese swordsmanship there is a phrase that translates roughly as 'appropriate distance'. We are all programed to respond defensively to sudden moves. 'appropriate distance' refers to finding that method of closing the distance without giving away anything through sudden, perceptiple motions. Sticking helps acheive this as you enter into your opponents gaps. This fools the opponent. Chen Taiji uses appropriate distance also when they talk about 'moving like a cloud' - the order in which the body unloads towards the opponent fools his sense of distance.

These are effective fighting strategies. All built on classical TCC.

[Water Dragon]

That makes a lot of esense. And, by the way, is much more eloquant than my standard "I see circles" responce :D

[Fu-Pow]

I thought sticking meant adhering to your opponent. This only works if you are completely relaxed. The body must be relaxed and springy like a huge metal spring. This way your body becomes like a huge antenna and the slightest movement by your opponent is transmitted through your body. Your subconcious can pick this up and makes microadjustments to maintain contact. This is the meaning of the classics when they say that a fly cannot land on you with out upsetting equilibrium.
When you "hear" and imbalance in your openent then you issue an attack. But even in the attack you maintain springiness.

This is stick, follow and issue, am I right?

The difference between this and an external art like MT is that they "throw" attacks at you. There is muscle contraction at the beginning of the strike to create momentum, then relaxation followed by contraction of the shoulder at the end. The punch may be relaxed but it is not continuous, there isn't this springiness.

If I was a Taiji player fighting a Muy Thai dude I would want to rush inside, make contact and attempt to upset equilibrium.

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist


I just came from your Sifu Kung Fu school, You was not there. I know you had to know I was coming down there today, Because I talk to your Sifu the other day. also your martial brother eight trigrams was there.


Me and your sifu Talk for a few hours today, As I told you, I know your Sifu for a few years, and I know what he can and can not do. I have Respect for your Sifu because back in the days, he show me a few things that help me out. For that he will always have my respect.

EvolutionFist-I'm young and need to trade hands with quality people. In doing that one is bound to take some lumps. Hey, this is martial arts, no? My weaknesses are not my masters. My lack of understanding is not a reflection of this man's talent. That is my only concern

Hey, If you win or lose, what do it have to do with your sifu. If you lose it have nothing to do with your sifu skill level. Like I said I know what the man can do. What I wanted to see is, If you can do, what you say you can do.


EvolutionFist)I found it odd that he left him out of the mention of internalists that he respects, because from my understanding they did certainly have a run in at a park, and gained your training brothers instant respect.

What do you find so odd. I don't understand your point here. As you know, your sifu is mostly a underground teacher. I feel it would have been a disrepest for me to talk about his skill level with out his knowledge. But if some one was to ask me about him, I "ll tell them he is good, Most teachers his age will not spar other martial arts, but he is one of the few martial artist that I can say will.

Think about it, you didn't even know, I knew your sifu . Intill I told you. Sometimes in life you keep good things in life to yourself, You don't call telling the world about every Ba Gua Zhang master you know. (do you understand my point) $hit, I know a lot of underground teachers in ChinaTown that is teaching some real Ba Gua Zhang, that can fight freestyle with their methods and can careless about being world renowned. I was going to hook your martial brother up with a few, but he was a no show, Then today he was a lost for words at your sifu school..........Not even a Hi. But hey thats life.......... he is still cool in my book. If I say I going to do something, I'm known for keeping my word, and I always keep $hit real in martial arts and within my life.


So anyway, I defer to my master in this regard. He knows best. I guess I'll just have to see what Friday brings. I'll be there, and as always I'll have by gloves

From my talk with your sifu I have a good idea about your skill level, But if want, I can still come friday and spar with you. But one point I must make is I don't box,I will be utilizing nothing but ba Gua Zhang. full contact is fine by me. Also if you want to spar at your sifu school, I can understand and respect your viewpoint, so we can hook up in chinatown park if you like. Its all up to you.

Let me know what's up.

[Ray Pina]

Sorry I missed you.

Check my posts. I train Tues. and Fri. I thought you were coming Fri. I even rushed over to Chinatown after work on Tues at like 8:30 just in case you didn't get my last post that day.

Anyway, why you guys were having fun today I was and still am at work. ****! I don't understand the hostility in your tone towards me, but what can one do about that.

Well, now that you have heard how bad I am you probbaly don't want to waist your time with such a no talent. Anyway, I heard about your matches with the WuShu team as well. It seems you have developed a reputation, as you seem to be here as well. Glad to see your hunger for these things.

If you spoke to my teacher, you probbaly know he does not want me fighting for at least six months. I feel like I've taken some heat in this matter -- never wanted to include my training brother or school in something so silly, but it apperas that way.

I already bowed out of the Kung Fu portion of this forum for other reasons and I have to keep a lower profile here. As you heard today, I suck, and have much to learn still. I'll putting my efforts there. If you come Fri., I'll so you then. If not, hopefully we will match up in a ring someday soon.

I have zero hostility towards you. I don't even know you. My intrest is the same that brought me to study with people who trained from the Yee's and Chin's, I want to be around quality martial artists with a similiar mindset.

Be well.

[blacktaoist]

I have no hostility towards you. So why would you think that EvolutionFist. I will be soon helping your sifu, with a tournament he is thinking about doing, To help bring back the real essence of internal martial arts. ( Real fighting utilizing an internal method, to the best of one's skill level) No New age theory Bull$hit.

I hope he do this tournament, maybe even a few KFO internal practitioners will come and show their skill level..........LOL


As for sparring you, It would have been all fun experience for both of us, no hostility just a good old time of freefighting. But hey, I can wait six months..........LOL:D

[Leonidas]

No one mentioned if conditioning is important, does conditioning become null and void if you start to practice an "Internal" Art. I mean if you can't take a hit what good is stick, follow, issue.

[Shooter]

blacktaoist, what do you weigh? Just wondering if size and weight are important to you in your sparring and application of Ba Gua Zhang. Would the master who's setting this tourney up have weight divisions? Thanks in advance.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Take a look at my first post on this thread. Those were my first two considerations.

See here's an excerpt:
__________________________________________________ _
Dealing with Muay Thai - I've fought some pretty good Muay Thai players. To do this you must first be in good or better physical condition than they are. Most internal players I've met ignore this important fact.

Second - I'd make sure I am plenty used to being hit.
__________________________________________________ _

Besides, only a fool would call themselves a martial artist if they weren't conditioned for things martial, eh?

It is unfortunate in the US martial arts community that it would even be thought of that people weren't conditioned for fighting.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
I thought sticking meant adhering to your opponent. This only works if you are completely relaxed. The body must be relaxed and springy like a huge metal spring. This way your body becomes like a huge antenna and the slightest movement by your opponent is transmitted through your body. Your subconcious can pick this up and makes microadjustments to maintain contact. This is the meaning of the classics when they say that a fly cannot land on you with out upsetting equilibrium.
When you "hear" and imbalance in your openent then you issue an attack. But even in the attack you maintain springiness.

This is stick, follow and issue, am I right?

This is correct. You must also remember, though, that there is a difference between developing a skill and using it in a fight. When and if you play rough, you'll need to be much more aggressive. Simply because, if you're always defensive anyone half good will be able to pick up your rhythm and blast you. So throw in some good hard shoves in there, jostle the guy around, then attack. Your yielding has been trained and will come out. Trust me!!

The difference between this and an external art like MT is that they "throw" attacks at you. There is muscle contraction at the beginning of the strike to create momentum, then relaxation followed by contraction of the shoulder at the end. The punch may be relaxed but it is not continuous, there isn't this springiness.


This one's not really correct. The expression of force is similar across the board. There are differences, but there's a lot more that is the same than is different.

[Shooter]

When and if you play rough, you'll need to be much more aggressive. Simply because, if you're always defensive anyone half good will be able to pick up your rhythm and blast you.

This isn't consistant with Tai Chi's ideas. "Picking the rhythm" is incumbent on the TCC player. Not the other way around. There should be no discernable rhythm for the opponent to "pick." Everything is predicated off of the opponent's forward pressure and intent. Water Dragon, you can certainly apply your strategy, but it has nothing to do with what Fu Pow was asking.

In fact, Fu Pow is correct in theory. Making it his reality depends on his perception of how he figures into the equation. Has he trained his mental/emotional/intuitive self to reflect his strategic and tactical theory? Is he truly centered in the chaos? I've seen the theory he writes about work very effectively in MMA (and these same ideas apply to the real). But that had everything to do with the actual preparation in how to apply the 5 Steps. The 5 Steps are supported by the mindset being established through event-specific push-hands practice. These assimilated (internalised) experiences make Tai Chi's positional strategies practicable. Without the 5 Steps, there's no cohesion in Tai Chi's position and timing. Position and timing are what Li I-Yu stress as being the things which facilitate following, and deflecting 1000 lbs with 4 oz. Knowing the opponent isn't just being receptive to his intent. It's knowing his fighting method and common movement patterns.

Fu Pow, I don't have very popular opinions on this board. Be that as it may, take this for what it's worth; You're not going to get any more knowledge from this board than what currently clutters up your mind. The only tests of your theories are written in your own blood and sweat. Go try that stuff you wrote about in the ring and find out for yourself. That's the only way you'll be sure unless you do a lot of street-fighting or simulations and scenario training. Best of luck either way. :)

[blacktaoist]

Shooter

I'm 6 '5 and weigh 215.

Would the master who's setting this tourney up have weight divisions?

If he do this turnament, I think so.

maoshan is doing a tournament, some time in september in NJ and they will have all weight divisions. If you want more information just ask him on KFO or e-mail him.

[razakdigital]

Hello Eight,

When I was at your school today with the black taoist you didn't say hello to me. What's the deal? I'm wondering what happen because I thought that we had communication between us sharing Pa Kua Chang and Hsing-I notes. You didn't even acknowledge me at your Sifu's school. Did I miss something for the 2 and 1/2 hours I was there while my Sifu was meeting with your Sifu?

[Water Dragon]

Sounds like you're talking very high level stuff. Yes, I've seen it don and had it done to me. But it's gonna take years for me to get to that point. Wrestlers come in very hard and very fast. If you rely on yielding/blending/matching/joining (not sure what you call it) you have to be totally on point. If you know the tradition I come from, I'd say you'd have to be at the level of an individual like George Blanc or Nathan Menaged to pull it off. I threw the names out as I know there are people who know these individual's skill level to use as a point of reference. Master-Teacher type stuff.

It's a helluva goal to work toward, and the results are simply the most amazing thing I've ever seen personally. We all need to start somewhere, and then progress. You see a similar progression in every art. You begin using a lot of raw strength and power, and in the process, you begin to refine that into jing: the efficient use of power and structure. If you know a way to get there quicker, by all means let me know. I'd be very interested. Everywhere I've seen, it comes from one thing: years upon years of intense study in push hands and an intricate study of the body's structure.

[cherrypraxis]

hi blacktaoist...

i finally have a face to the reputation...

=P
______

hi razakdigital...

man, you carry a library with you! i can't believe you pulled that book out of nowhere.
______

bt/rd:

it was nice meeting you guys earlier today at my teacher's school.

--cherry

[razakdigital]

Cherry,

It was my pleasure meeting you guys! I also have to thank TBT because he brings me to different areas to meet different teachers in the arts so I can get a full scope and not a narrow view on things. It gives me an chance to experience other ideas from different Sifu's as well...

Look forward to seeing you guys soon!

Thanks,

As for the library - you never know when you need it!

[Esteban]

Hi,

here's a site with some muay thai clips. They might help the discussion of strategy. http://www.muaythaionline.net/features/multimedia.html

Here's something with a more Chinese flavor, just for comparison.
http://www.sinowushu.com/english/english_xinshang.php?page=0&pagesize=4&whichone=video

[If you can't get right there, just go to www.sinowushu.com and follow the links.

A different style http://www.ufighting.com/videos.shtml

and

Just for fun:
http://www.geocities.com/bclips2/

Cheers,
Esteban

[Shooter]

blacktaoist, thanks for the information. I'm in the process of getting something set up and will be in touch.


Water Dragon, is it really that high-level?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Shooter

Water Dragon, is it really that high-level?

Yes, it is. Unless of course we're talking about two totally different things, which is possible.

[Leonidas]

Oh sorry about that MonkeySlap. I'm in the habit of skimming through relly long posts which seems to be every single one in this thread. I knew conditioning was important though, even in IMA. Thanks for answering twice though.

[Shooter]

I'm talking about the use of TCC's 5 Steps' positional strategies, timing, "leading the opponent into emptiness," stick, follow, issue, and "knowing the opponent."

[Water Dragon]

As I've said before, we don't use the 5 steps, so I'm sure the arts interpretation is different.

I'm referring to someone who can use pure yielding to slam you down hard as he.ll consitently yet you never feel more than an extremely light pressure. Pure rollback energy (which is considered the the ultimate goal in my school)

[Shooter]

OK...you're talking about things which are still theoretical for you. I'm talking about things my training partners and I are able to apply.

"deflect 1000 lbs with 4 oz" is still a figurative aspect for me, and relative to my level. I'm probably using anywhere from 100 to 10 lbs.

[Water Dragon]

That's cool, I know I'm not what one would call "advanced" I use what I have to in order to make things work. If you ever make it to Chicago, be sure and look me up. It's so much easier when we can say "Here, feel this. It feels like this."

[razakdigital]

Eight Tri -

Thanks for the email you clarified things for me.

[Zantesuken]

ummmm no offense but i read one person trains in muay thai and it isn't a punching thing. get up close and knees and elbows will crush you. and they train VERY fast. in theory we all know how to apply it but has anyone tried it?

just wondering cause back then 1922 this muay thai guy challenged southern masters which are more renowned for better hand arts than northern china where the legs are more emphasized?

hey first post ina long time

[Wongsifu]

sorry to jump in now , but has any1 ever stopped and thought that maybe sticking doesnt necessarily mean sticking to the opponent, in fact its the total opposite, going with the flow doesnt mean going with the opponents flow, if you do this he controls you , going with the flow means going with the flow of nature of the cosmos.
Sticking is actually just that, when the opponent comes in to punch you and you block him his hand is stuck to you like glue.
its said that yang lu chan (i believe it was, could be chang sen feng) was standing one day when a bird landed on his arm and couldnt fly away no matter how hard it tried.
This is sticking , theres a teacher who can still do this , i believe he is in malaysia , he has 1 student who is my friends uncle, and he can do just that stick to you , his arm his leg his back whatever can just stick to you. forgetting all this aside ive seen it with my own eyes, 2 friends of mine , can stick stuff to their hands forehead whatever , small things like a ruler, box of matches etc.

This is taiji sticking, running around close to the guy will only get your ass handed to you as you ar econcentrating on him not on you.

btw all this doesnt apply to wing chun, thats a different case, wing chun technically shouldnt have any blocks or redirections at a high level, you just intercept the punches and kicks and the point where the power runs out, so you always have contact with the guy.

Anyhow i cant make my skin stick and get ppls punches to latch on to me so

:confused:

[Kaitain(UK)]

I always interpreted YLC stunt as a demonstration of his sensitivity - he was able to detect the push down that the bird makes as it tried to leap away and fly, as the 'push' came from the bird he would move his arm away to prevent it from having anything to push against. A demonstration of the extreme sensitivity he possessed.

Adhere, Join, Stick and Follow

Make contact - energy and mental intent together. Like the energy used when you pick up a ballon or a ball. This is to adhere.

Maintain contact - go through and connect together, attach continuously without pausing or breaking. This is to join.

Fasten on - he advances, I retreat; he retreats, I follow; it's like pasting on and sticking, without letting go and with no resistance. "When he pushes upward or downward against you he feels the distance incredibly long, when he retreats he feels it exasperatingly short". This is sticking energy. This is to stick.

Respond accordingly - you must obey, do not move too soon or too late. Give up your own initiative and follow that of others. When he advances or retreats, you must comply - one must not let go or seperate. This is to follow.

It is not a slavish action - you are ever present, mindful and ready. You just don't force the issue (sorry for the pun :)).


Going with the opponents flow is meant to make him think he controls you - yet when he strikes you are not there, the distance is too great. When he retreats he cannot escape, you are too near. All of this is demonstrable - the degree of skill someone does it with varies hugely but it do-able by anyone who trains diligently. The entire martial principle of Taiji is deception (as I am taught and as I understand it) - lead your opponent into an opening that isn't there and then punish him - your structure allows no escape.

Having re-read all that it's a kind of mixed regurgitation of various texts I've read mixed in with my own understanding :) Apologies if I plagiarised too much - I've just found that the classics seem to say it better..

I strongly disagree that Taiji sticking is anything to do with attaching things to yourself.

[liquidthought]

I think Black taosit should fight a current muay thai champion say for instance marvin perry then we can settle this question once and for all

[razakdigital]

I think Black taosit should fight a current muay thai champion say for instance marvin perry then we can settle this question once and for all

How can a fight with TBT and Marvin Perry settle what question? What question are you talking about? Why Marvin Perry? Why not Chung Lee, Frank Shamrock, Tito Ortiz, Vanderler Siva or Melchor Menor the International Muay-Thai Kickboxing champ? What is your point?

[liquidthought]

Cung lee doesn't fight muay thai, neither do a bunch of those other guys. Marvin is relatively local and I have heard is willing to kick some ass. Especially those with a highly overrated sense of their own ability.

[blacktaoist]

liquidthought-What do me fighting marvin perry have to do with my thread. Man you need to kill the dump$hit I'm 34 years old, and I train hard in the old martial training ways, and I know for a fact I don't fear Marvin Perry or anyone for that matter.

Me fighting Marvin Perry is not going to settle this thread question, Because for one this thread have nothing to do with the man, My question is about what method a internal practitioner utilize to fight a Tai Boxer, thats the question.

But hey if you or anyone want to test me, I very easy to find in New York and I don't need a ring, Like I said before I train for real, I'm not up here just talking $hit like most people up here on KFO.

[razakdigital]

Cung lee doesn't fight muay thai, neither do a bunch of those other guys. Marvin is relatively local and I have heard is willing to kick some ass. Especially those with a highly overrated sense of their own ability.

But why bring Mr. Perry's name into the topic? The other people I put down are willing to kick a**. There many figthers that want to kick a**. What is your motive for using Mr. Perry's name?

[maoshan]

What's with this Marvin Perry thing again? liquidthought?
I hope I'm wrong, but I think I know who this is. and if I'm right,
I'll say this for the last time.
We have nothing to do with you people. I thought we took care of this before. Now if you want to start this again it will not be handled the way it was before. We do Ba-Gua traditional fighting.
and train only in that way. We don't do sport san shou or Mui tai.
We train for true combat. Period. Why hasn't this been understood.
Look, My Tournament is being held September 28. My brother like myself are feed up with this $hit. If you want to fight, come on down. Just know that this is for real. no gloves just straight all out
You've even got time to prepare. we're too old for these games.
Either bring it, or stop the bull$hit.

Maoshan

[liquidthought]

whoooo calm down. You guys are takin this all pretty seriously. It was just a suggetion on my part. What are the rules for your tournament?

[SanShou Guru]

I assume you think Liquidthought is me but it is not. But I just want to point out a few errors in this statement. You, said:

"If you want to fight, come on down. Just know that this is for real. no gloves just straight all out "


But on your rules page (foundhere (http://www.blacktaoist.com/All%20Ba%20Gua%20Zhang%20tournament.html) ) for this event you say:

"Protection must be used for the head, chest, mouth, groin, and feet as well as shin pads. The use of Keno (sic) Gloves will be employed to enable competitors to use palm strikes."

Most of the other rules do not seem to mirror all out fighting by any stretch of the imagination. It's cool if you are having a Bagua sparring tournament but do not make it out as being more serious than it is.

Also TBT mentioned in our discussions about a possible match with Marvin Perry that he trains with some pro fighters and since he is not interested in fighting Marvin in a sanctioned event at this time, do you guys know any other potential opponents that may be interested (195-210 lbs. pro, leg kick, MT, San Shou, San Da rules)? He seems to be rather Radio Active, nobody will take a fight with him and I want to get at least one fight in before his potential match with one of the King of Sanda fighters in August in New Orleans.

Let me know either here or by direct email.

[blacktaoist]

SanShou Guru, You was the last person to come to me and Moshen mind. So I don't understand why you post a reply if it was not you.

But I guess people have they own way of doing things.


SanShou Guru-Also TBT mentioned in our discussions about a possible match with Marvin Perry that he trains with some pro fighters and since he is not interested in fighting Marvin in a sanctioned event at this time, do you guys know any other potential opponents that may be interested (195-210 lbs. pro, leg kick, MT, San Shou, San Da rules)? He seems to be rather Radio Active, nobody will take a fight with him and I want to get at least one fight in before his potential match with one of the King of Sanda fighters in August in New Orleans.

What I told you is I fight marvin Perry as long as I can fight with Keno open finger Gloves and you guys , let me utilize my palm strikes." Then I fight your Boy marvin perry full contact under your san Shou rules. After All I don't train full contact with boxing gloves. You guys let me fight full contact (No Protection) with open finger gloves. Word to my dead grand****her, I fight your boy.

Let me know what's up, either here or by direct email.

Peace.

[SanShou Guru]

Well the problem is not fighting that way but getting it sanctioned for a pro event since those gloves are against Pro San Shou rules. Think of it this way, would they let you wear those gloves for a golden glove match?

But nothing is impossible I always say, I'm almost certain Marvin would not care. Do you know of anybody that may be interested to fight with the standard gear?

Oh and did you ever get the tape I sent?

[blacktaoist]

SanShou Guru, I got the tape. Your boy Marvin is a good fighter, mostly kicker, Like I told you before I have respect for Marvin, But I don't fear the man.


Do you know of anybody that may be interested to fight with the standard gear?

I know a few people that may be interested to fight marvin, But you have to give me a few days. Also what month you looking for him to fight in?

[maoshan]

Sanshou Guru,
First, when I said
“If you want to fight, come on down. Just know that this is for real. No gloves just straight all out "
I was referring such individuals that were coming to fight. That had nothing to do with the tournament. That was for either outside or the backroom

Sanshou Guru:
Most of the other rules do not seem to mirror all out fighting by any stretch of the imagination. It's cool if you are having a Bagua sparring tournament but do not make it out as being more serious than it is.

The rules are such because of the insurance Co. If I had it my way, it would be as Li Zi Ming said: “ if you can’t protect Head and groin you shouldn’t even be fighting”.
Hell, up until 1934(the last Real San Shou Tournament in China)
Nobody wore protection. Winners left with broken limbs.

Sanshou Guru:
Also TBT mentioned in our discussions about a possible match with Marvin Perry that he trains with some pro fighters and since he is not interested in fighting Marvin in a sanctioned event at this time,

Next, You’re wrong. TBT never told you that he trained with Pro fighters. He told you he trained with Traditional teachers. I know this for a fact. We don’t train like you people. We train for war, you train for sport. Gloves hinder our techniques, which takes me to the next subject.
You knew before and during our discussions about a possible bout, that we wanted kenpo gloves. It was you that informed me that it wouldn’t be sanctioned. He was and still is ready to fight. But he won’t fight your fight. We don’t do sport Sanshou. How many ways do I half to express it.

Sanshou Guru:
He seems to be rather Radio Active, nobody will take a fight with him and I want to get at least one fight in before his potential match with one of the King of Sanda fighters in August in New Orleans.

Why do you come to us? We don’t do Sanshou. And we won’t be goaded into it either. In fact why are you even in this forum? Why not try the external forum? That’s what you guy’s do. We don’t.

Now as far as the Gloves are concerned, you said:
Well the problem is not fighting that way but getting it sanctioned for a pro event since those gloves are against Pro San Shou rules. Think of it this way, would they let you wear those gloves for a golden glove match?

We don’t BOX! What is your problem? We’re Martial artist!
And that’s a sport. Get it? Yin and Yang, Night and Day, East and West. Opposites. You need to be somewhere else if you’re looking for a western boxer. Couldn’t do it if we tried.

Right now your acting like your partner here in New York at the time of the Beijing fights. And as I said before, “We have nothing to do with you”.

Maoshan

[SanShou Guru]

TBT
No immediate rush on finding people for Marvin but if you know any people we should contact about possible future matches that would be great. We hope to get a few North East matches if possible because it is a real pain to always have to travel to fight good people.

Moashan
Easy chief it was not clear from that post that you were not talking about your event. I think your event sounds like and interesting idea and I hope you get a good turnout. As for the rules, you do need protection at the amateur level because otherwise you would not get many people to fight and one killer in the event would cause too many injuries. Also, as you said, you would never get insurance. Again good luck with the event, make sure you advertise it at the "Taste of China" event.