Yuanfen

[black and blue]

Checked out your site - very nice. Before I begin, this isn't an attack on Sifu Fong - despite how it looks. If I had the opportunity to train with your Sifu I'm sure I would jump at the chance. :)

But... with regards that pesky dummy form arguement...

On your site there's an interview with Sifu Fong. He says: “In my time, I have seen many styles and forms but when I do Wing Chun, I teach what has come down from Yip Man through Ho Kam Ming to me.”

So I have to ask, Joy, does Sifu Fong teach the Yip Man dummy form in addition to his own interpretation of the form, or just his own version? Which of the two have you learnt, or have you learned both?

By the bye, I have no problem with his reasons for making adjustments, but if he does so, surely his students can't complain about other branches/styles of WC making modifications (I think Old Jong was having a bash at the influence of MMA on today's WC).

On the same thread, you said: "ULTIMATELY- who decides what changes are acceptable- you do-but caveat emptor... avoid the Scylla of innovation for its own sake or out of ignorance and the Charybdis of robotic imitation."

And later said: "Come to think of it- i wish most wing chun folks would defect to bjj and the lion's den. They havent learned enough wing chun any way."

These are two comments that infuriate me! "Innovation for its own sake" and the notion that "they (a poss. ref to groups such as my own - Kamon Wing Chun - where our Sifu studies, successfully, BJJ) havent learned enough wing chun any way", smacks of arrogance and ignorance.

My Sifu teaches in a very realistic manner. He's well aware of what works and what doesn't, and what is needed in a real comabative situation. If he incorporates some BJJ (and as posted before, the concepts of center line, use of relaxation etc, remain), he does so not out of a 'lack of knowledge' or for 'its own sake', but because he's imparting skills that are required. He has gleaned this knowledge for practical experience, not the ever-safe confines of a training hall, as is so common with today's self defence courses.

WC is a fantastic fighting system, and its concepts 'can', I believe, be applied for all areas, distances of fighting. Some arts specialise in ground work. If the concepts/principles behind such arts (ie. BJJ) are complementary to WC, why not use them.

I've asked before, but no one cares to answer, how often do you train ground work, the clinch etc, in training? How often do put your students under pressure by pairing them up with larger opponents and starting from the clinch, where distance has already been covered/the gap bridged? (bridged to the extent that your opponent's face is 8 inches from your own)

IMHO, and it really is humble :), one shouldn't assume that those who practise WC and BJJ are lacking in WC confidence or WC knowledge.

Perhaps, just perhaps, these are people that understand the brutality of fighting a little better than yourself, Joy. You've been training since the 70s you say. Maybe you still retain the 1970s attitute? :p :) As you indicated, back them no one knew how to spell Ros Grazie :D

[kungfu cowboy]

Here is some 70s wingchun. (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:57tl1Oe_yYEC:i15.yimg.com/15/2e1ffe71/h/682fc043/WING%2BCHUN%2BSHAG%2B1.0.jpg) :p

[Nat from UK]

Please Please Please.... tell me the photo is of you.

I had a bad perm in the 80's but I now feel a lot better about it now.


:D :D :D :D

Still Laughing

Nat from UK

[BeiKongHui]

Perhaps while he's at it he'll explain where the pole and knife forms came from.

[yuanfen]

Hey cowboy-great pic from the 70s-can I borrow some of that stuff for my pate? On second thoughts no- what you see is what you get. Wouldnt want to cover the light under a bushel.

Hey black and blue--Firstly, no need for a yuanfen thread. It's embarrassing and i already have a abundance of riches and attention from the anonymous juveniles on the vtaa(and here too)- so a friend told me. While I am dedicated to what i do and express opinions
about a subject...there are 4 things(noble truths?) I try not to do...1. name drop and bring my sifu into it.(he can hold his own in his own way) 2. specifically attack a
well known wc sifu personally(might differ on their methods). I have made exactly zero reference to Kammon. Chung Chow, Alan lee etc 3. not to dwell on myself 4. avoid scatology and try not to initiate trash talk-some humor yes. I am on my own.
Now to what you call the pesky dummy argument: Wing chun forms are compressed texts of the subject of wing chun. As in any serious subjects different editions or texts will have its own approach, footnoies or arrangement... but Physics should not have new age mumbo jumbo and economics should not have lessons in alchemy. Samuelson the son revised Samuelson the father's basic economic text. Yip Man fiddled with his forms. Ho kam Ming fiddled with his and ditto for Fong- the subject is and remains the same... no mma at any stage. Ho began around 56 with Yip Man-
regular intense and personal lessons for over 8 years-did chi sao with him regularly and remained in close master-student touch till Yip Man's death. Fong started with Ho in 60 studied with him regularly and intensely, fought for his school, taught for Ho and stayed and stays in touch with Ho over the years. Fong was gone by the time Wu and the younger Ho students came along. BTW YM often visited Ho's school(when Fong was there). I began with Fong in 76 and stay in touch but I am on my own including strengths and weaknesses.(BTW my sourve of knowledge on self defense is not academic) Fong learned the old way- little talk,
constant correction, the forms, chi sao and key drills. Westerners dont have the patience to learn the way that YM, HKM, and AF learned their wing chun. The basic Ho things are at the core of Fong's forms. Two things that are different- often old timers on the dummy would show you one side and expect you to figure out the other. In Fong's forms...both sides are there... making the forma little longer.Then Ho showed different applications of forms.
Fong put some of the key applications in the dummy form. A key example... pulling back on the dummy leg after hooking in- a key application and even concept...but rather than just separate motion its in the AF form. At close quarters if you are losing your balance you can use your opponent for regaining balance sometimes with hands some times with feet.Also rather than a separate kicking section, the kicks are in the dummy. Teaching methods can vary-the truths remain the same at the core. I can do slightly different versions of the forms-depnding on what I want to integrate and when. NO MIXED MARTIAL ARTS IN THERE.
All comes from YGKYM, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee when understood in depth. I believe that I answered your main questions&trust that you are less infuriated(not good for your health).
Finis and cheers.

[black and blue]

Info on form and YM and AF is interesting. Thanks.

My bane isn't with the form alteration, however. As I said, I can understand the reasons. I even have a few AF videos! (Though not the dummy form :p)

My being infuriated :), is a result of your assumption that those who also train in BJJ have a lack of knowledge with regards WC, and are 'adding' for the sake of it.

IMO this is utter nonsense.

And hey, why not mention AF? He's your Sifu... there should never be shame in this ;)

[yuanfen]

Info on form and YM and AF is interesting. Thanks.
(Welcome)

My being infuriated , is a result of your assumption that those who also train in BJJ have a lack of knowledge with regards WC, and are 'adding' for the sake of it.
((Not personal. Have not mentioned kammon. Definitional. WC is WC. I express my views but I am not on a missionary journey))))



And hey, why not mention AF? He's your Sifu... there should never be shame in this

((Shame? What gave you even a hint of that, Hardly. Far far from it. Just not a name dropper. Discussions must have its own merits))

PS: i didnt learn from his videos and dont devote much time to them. I learned the dummy piece by piece before the video came out. i show my students lots of dummy applications that are not directly in the form. There is a fit between everything in wing chun because it is a system of interlocking concepts.

[S.Teebas]

Westerners dont have the patience to learn the way that YM, HKM, and AF learned their wing chun.

Really?

[yuanfen]

Sure, there are cultural differences on learning environments,
methods of instruction, transmision etc. Note-I did not say that westerners cannot learn eatsern stuff---the teacher has to be
adjust some and the student has to adjust some if they really want to learn the subject.
There is that great story of a westerner travelling to HK to learn single stick froma well known WC master... he held on to a phone with the other hand and talking away on the phone to some one else.

[mun hung]

IMHO - there are still instructors who teach the old fashioned way. Unfortunately, this usually causes a high turn-over in students. Students either can't take the punishment, don't have the patience, don't have the time or real dedication to learn. This happens in just about all styles of MA.

[kungfu cowboy]

Nat-as much as I aspire to being such a ladies man/dandy, I found the picture on the net.

[red5angel]

Hey Black and Blue - I dont think tha attack was on you or your sifu specifically. The sad fact is there are many people out there who do not understand WC well enough. They most often must fill gaps with other arts. Sadly those that may know the system pretty well, may not be able to mix in these other arts.
As for your Sifu, maybe he does do a good job in mixing bjj and WC, are you qualified to determine if he is?
Do you see the problem in mixing arts? Sometimes they are not compatible although they may seem so. I highly agree with your training ideas! I think WC people should approach all ranges, there are answers out there, even if you find some of them, you may not get the agreement of everyone else.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by black and blue
WC is a fantastic fighting system, and its concepts 'can', I believe, be applied for all areas, distances of fighting. Some arts specialise in ground work. If the concepts/principles behind such arts (ie. BJJ) are complementary to WC, why not use them.

IMHO, and it really is humble :), one shouldn't assume that those who practise WC and BJJ are lacking in WC confidence or WC knowledge.

I must agree with the notion that if one needs another style to supplement one's Wing Chun, that person does lacks knowledge of Wing Chun.

It seems you are under the impression that Wing Chun does not have training methods for the ground? I'm sorry to disappoint you, but there are. No disrespect toward your sifu intended. Perhaps he didn't learn them. It could be just that simple. Not everyone can have the best fortune cookie...

[kungfu cowboy]

I think that maybe some wing chun that has other stuff added in or made up is offered as pure wing chun so people expecting/wanting to learn groundfighting or a so-called complete system will not be disappointed, therefor some people believe that there is groundfighting in wing chun. If its good stuff, it still works, but it probably wasn't there since the beginning.

Did Yip Man roll? Did he teach groundfighting? Why is it not found consistently throughout the art? Some say that not everybody learned it, but I'm sure they would of at least heard about it from other classmates who did . I would love to see some wing chun groundfighting that bears no obvious relation to some other art. Are there wing chun breakfalls too? Something just doesn't jibe. Maybe non Yip Man lineage has it or something, and that's what accounts for the discrepancy?

[planetwc]

Originally posted by Sabu


I must agree with the notion that if one needs another style to supplement one's Wing Chun, that person does lacks knowledge of Wing Chun.

It seems you are under the impression that Wing Chun does not have training methods for the ground? I'm sorry to disappoint you, but there are. No disrespect toward your sifu intended. Perhaps he didn't learn them. It could be just that simple. Not everyone can have the best fortune cookie...

Sabu,

Please expand beyond your quote above and discuss in detail where the training methods for ground fighting are in Wing Chun.

The supposition that MANY of us are acting on, which perhaps you are not, is that Wing Chun does not train for fighting on the ground to the extent and sylabus of techniques as BJJ, Sambo, Judo and Greco Roman Wrestling do.

Is your claim that YOUR sifu teaches Wing Chun in such a fashion that you have sets which emphasize you being on the ground flat on your back or starting from one of the traditional wrestling positions? Which sets or drills specifically have you either on your back, on your knees, mounted or in the guard, spider guard, butterfly guard etc.

Which lineage is this? I have not seen any photos or videos of Ip Man rolling on the ground or doing newaza equivalents in his demonstrations of Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu or Bil Jee. Nor in the video of the Jong training which is of course upright and does not go on the floor. Nor was such training shown in the photographs from the 50's when Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu were chosen by Ip Man to publically demonstrate his Wing Chun System.

I have not seen such things in Pan Nam's system or in descriptions of Sum Nung's Yuen Kay Shan system either.

So I am left to the conclusion that perhaps your lineage is not from Ip Man?

In any case, I and I think many others would really appreciate more details on what the specific training routines, drills or forms you have within your system.

Does your Sifu have a website or videos out on this subject that one could review? If not, does your si-gung have such material?

Thanks for your time,

regards,

David

[black and blue]

red5angel - Am I qualified to tell if my sifu mixes WC and BJJ well? Don't know :) The mix isn't so much of a mix all said. The classes are WC - that's what we stick to. If, however, we are in a position where a technique/movement from BJJ can be applied... we learn it and drill it.

On the whole I don't agree with mixing. If I wanted something else I'd study it. WC is what I love. The incorporation of some BJJ just adds to the fun 'and' effectiveness. Because the concepts and ideas used are so similar... it works. Would I want to combine WC with Karate, TKD, etc? NO WAY!!! If the concepts are alien, I don't believe you can mix them effectively. And why would we want to? I've not seen another MA that deals so well with attacks from a 'standing' position.

Sabu - I do believe WC has concepts for ground fighting... they are the same as fighting from a standing position. BJJ, as an example, simply specialises in this area, and because the concepts are so similar, can be a great learning experience for the WC player who is taken down. I'd imagine a BJJ player could gain a great deal from joining a WC class, and vice versa.

You're trying to wind me up too, eh? :D All this talk about WC sifus not knowing enough. LOL. I'm too fresh to WC to say who knows what and who knows best. All I do know is that my Sifu seems untouchable. But then I guess this is the case for everyone studying and posting here.

:)

Sabu - who do you learn from? How big is their fortune cookie?

PlanetWC - Well said fella. What more can I say, you've said it all. Here's to hoping Sabu and Joy have the answers AND are willing to give them up. Someone post pics of Yip Man in the mount. For some reason that last sentense cracked me up :cool:

[Sabu]

LOL! That would be a BJJ approach, not a Wing chun one... LOL

Good luck gentlemen.

[black and blue]

The mount/squashing/sitting on someone... whatever terms you like. Getting on top of someone when they are down is hardly exclusive to BJJ!

You are a charlaton, Mr Sabu. If you have a response to PlanetWC's post.... post it.

[red5angel]

Planetwc sez - "The supposition that MANY of us are acting on, which perhaps you are not, is that Wing Chun does not train for fighting on the ground to the extent and sylabus of techniques as BJJ, Sambo, Judo and Greco Roman Wrestling do. "

I dont think we are looking to see that level of ground fighting in WC at all, those arts are ground fighting arts in general. I think most of us are just looking for WCs' answers to the ground. I may be reading you wrong.......

B&B - No problem, sounds like you have a pretty good thing going then! It is rare to find an instructor who hasnt modified WC to compensate for something. Thats where my belief comes from, the fact that most instructors arent really qualified to alter the art. By now it would take a rare insight to alter it significantly to make it better. Most changes are more cosmetic.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by planetwc

I have not seen any photos or videos of Ip Man rolling on the ground or doing newaza equivalents in his demonstrations of Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu or Bil Jee. Nor in the video of the Jong training which is of course upright and does not go on the floor. Nor was such training shown in the photographs from the 50's when Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu were chosen by Ip Man to publically demonstrate his Wing Chun System.

I have not seen such things in Pan Nam's system or in descriptions of Sum Nung's Yuen Kay Shan system either.

So I am left to the conclusion that perhaps your lineage is not from Ip Man?


I never saw pics of Ip Man eating shrimp dumplings, am I left to conclude that he hated seafood?

Who's your seafood, David?

[black and blue]

:rolleyes: Yes... no pics of dumplings :rolleyes:

But there are pics and video footage of his WING CHUN, which is, after all, what we're discussing. Forms, weapons, chi sau - all of these are in our system (that is to say HIS system) and there are pics of Yip Man performing them.

So.... is there anyone with pics/video footage of Yip Man showing us ground work? Can anyone give a serious answer to planetwc's question, or is this going to be a post where people say: "I have the answers but I won't give anyone the details".

Perhaps :( another pi**ing contest relating to whose sifu knows the real WC and it's secret ground work.

Duncan

Ps. Everyone likes shrimp dumplings. Mmmm. :)

[reneritchie]

"Sifu (A) never learned" can also equal "Sifu (B) made up". Martial arts is full of both. Does it matter if Yip Man ground grappled or if he liked Ha Gow? Only if your goal is to mimick Yip Man. If your goal is to be good at Wing Chun Kuen, you might have a different answer. If your goal is to be good at fighting, a different one still. And if you're allegic to Ha Gao, try Siu Mai or Chun Goon.

(BTW- While there is no historical evidence of systematic or emphasized ground-fighting in WCK, Yuen Kay-San was attacked by another boxer once while reclining on a bed 8) )

Rgds,

RR

[Alpha Dog]

Perhaps Ip Man didn't want anyone to know about his secret love of crustaceans. Even godlike people like (Y)Ip Man don't always tell the truth. Anyway, who really cares -- if Wing Chun principles can be applied on the ground, go for it.

[yuanfen]

Already, without my mentioning Kammon, Black & Blue thought that I was insulting his school.Then Dave began to defend Chung Chows adaptation of wc without specifics. The fragile and diverse nature of wing chun keeps some serious discussions out of the netting zone. So
I will reiterate some points and let it go for now.(still hoping that the yuenfan thread disappears and is replaced by bjj-the savior of wing chun))
1. There is no published wc syllabus by Yip Man.
2. Obviously thought that he didnt need one, : good teaching of ygkym, slt, ck,bj,jong, do, kwan, chi sao, chi gerk, practise and application and experience was the wing chun way for empty hand personal self defense-aside from the gun.
3. I have also found it to be true-same for my best students.
4. I have practised wing chun on the ground before I ever heard of Gracie... and have tested wing chun aginst competent shooting, attempted arm bars, chokes, mounts-satisfactorily-and I show this to students on some days. I have not had a single lesson in bjj.
5. I think good wing chun need not be directed towards defending aginst the latest fad but teaches one to deal with whatever is there irrespective of style.
6. Bad wing chun is useless and even dangerous. Bad YGKYM, Bad chum kiu, bad biu jee, bad chi sao, gor sao etc can get one into deep trouble.
7.Then the "fixes" begin- spar, wear pads, tkd kicks at long range, escrima, jkd gloves,tai chi, mats,bjj lessons and wc begins to become one of the famous Rube Golberg caricatures or contraptions. And some chain store or quick stop kwoons for wider marketing and diversification have add ons.
8. Too bad we dont have pictures of Yip man on the floor, swinging
froma chandelier, rope skipping, somersaulting into a ring, dealing with rage in the cage or in an octagon, or waiting for the cop McCarthy to say-are you ready?, have escrima sticks in his hand, or nun chucks, tonfas, kukhris, bench pressing, among other cures for incomplete wing chun. Perhaps apart from his well known personal ups and downs: ...in martial arts anyway he didnt have attention deficit disorder... a spreading malady in modern times.

It shouldnt be easy to take a competent wc person to the ground.
If by chance it does happen...wing chun knowledge of relative structures of oneself and the opponent and their dynamics and very wide range of tools
of control and distraction, timing and the clear but flexible wing chun spirit- is good enough for lots of good wing chun folks I know...and for me.Perhaps a minority view on this thread buta confident one.

[red5angel]

RR - do you know any more details of this inclined attack? Sounds interesting!

I think finding pictures of anyone in WC on the ground besides the infamous W cheung vs Bobo ambush. Like I said in the other discussion string, I dont think there is a whole lot of it out there. I ran into a link not too long ago that had a guy doing some videos on ground combat. They seemed to be pretty good. the guy wore camo pants and some of his demos were inside, some were outside. As with all videos displayed on this forum I think it was attacked for being crap. I think the school was in europe somewhere....


Yuanfen - Well said!

[black and blue]

Same old, same old. Yuenfen you must be deadly :)

I guess experience is the key. Whatever appoach taken, people must train against 'going' to the ground and what to do when there.

What I find 'dangerous' is the notion that students are shown armlocks/bars on "some days". Heaven help such people. If once a month they practise getting dusty on the floor... when they hit the cement... well, who knows what will happen. Maybe that WC spirit will come good. Lets hope so.

I still find it odd that, although no Yip Man originated syllabus exists, we have documented info (whatever the media) on forms, weapons etc, and nothing with regards ground work,... but hey, maybe that's just odd to me.

Yuenfen... I'll try not to use your name in a thread title again :)

Cheers for the patient and polite response.

Duncan

[red5angel]

B&B, I think you could edit the thread name? Anyway, the training you speak of is sometimes all you need. I dont think you have to be an expert in ground fighting to fight on the ground, like in any other range. Ultimatley our goal would be to be experts, but we must divide our attention to other ranges as well. You must look first at how often one goes to class, or trains on thier own. how many ranges do you believe exist? Lets say there is, pr-contact, contact, close range,clinch, ground. there is 6 I would say, from my point of view, now how often should I practice them? If I practice too many in one day, I better either have a heck of a lot of time on my hands. If I practice one each day well, that means roughly once a week on all ranges. how do I decide. I am in for the long haul with my Wing chun, that means that I may only practice the ground 1 a month, but thats 12 times a year!!! ;) also, I dont think it needs to be concentrated on so much as understood and addressed. A lot of people in WC will say knowing the principles will get you a long way, and I believe this, if you address them periodically then I think that would be sufficient for your average WC man.

[yuanfen]

Yuenfen you must be deadly

((Only when necessary-I even kill the buddha on the path to knowledge))

I guess experience is the key. Whatever appoach taken, people must train against 'going' to the ground and what to do when there.
((true))

What I find 'dangerous' is the notion that students are shown armlocks/bars on "some days".
((Specific counters... but the key is knowing wing chun fundamentals very very well-hence some days...by implication evry day))

Heaven help such people.
((heaven helps those who help themselves))

If once a month they practise getting dusty on the floor...
((Some days they dust the floor and help keep the kwoon tolrably clean))

Maybe that WC spirit will come good. Lets hope so.
(Me too))

I still find it odd that, although no Yip Man originated syllabus exists, we have documented info (whatever the media) on forms, weapons etc, and nothing with regards ground work,... but hey, maybe that's just odd to me.

(not to me...wc prepares the person...wherever he/she maybe.Like
the song from the Phantom of the Opera- where you go let me go to)

Yuenfen... I'll try not to use your name in a thread title again

((Self effacing is the key- I know who I am))

Cheers for the patient and polite response.

(that was the intent. Am comfortable with civil disagreements
and differnt perspectives))yuanfen aka joy aka tiger(only is needed)

Duncan

[red5angel]

"Only when necessary-I even kill the buddha on the path to knowledge"

Yuanfen, I have seen this statement before but what does it mean?

[yuanfen]

enlightment, is enlightment is enlightment
when it happens
buddhas disappear
knowledge is its own authority

[red5angel]

gotcha, thanks!

[planetwc]

Originally posted by Sabu
LOL! That would be a BJJ approach, not a Wing chun one... LOL

Good luck gentlemen.

Sorry that should be smoke and mirrors.
"Sabu", I think you are mistaking this forum for the "Go Fish" card game. It certainly is not a productive way to converse with others.

Now you can either continue to smirk and make condescending posts which provide little more that empty attempts witicisms or you can actually provide some details on what it is you are training and how.

I asked you for details on your teacher's approach to training and you provide nothing in return. If "Love is the answer", why not show some LOVE to your Kung Fu brothers, instead of posing as some gadfly and not adding to the conversation?

Otherwise what is the point? Why be on this forum?
To gloat?:rolleyes:

[planetwc]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog


I never saw pics of Ip Man eating shrimp dumplings, am I left to conclude that he hated seafood?

Who's your seafood, David?

Wazzup Dogg!

Well, that's because I haven't posted those photos on the soon to be famous Iron Chef Wing Chun.

"Stomach likes tofu
Head likes Wine Glass
Bridge likes Iron Chef"

I didn't remember shrimp dumplings being a part of the Wing Chun system. Ip Man played Mah Jong yet I don't thing we consider that to be part of our kuen system either. LOL.

Of course Duncan Leung has a picture of Ip Man at a restaurant on his website. Perhaps if one looks close enough you can still see the remains of a shrimp dumpling on the table.

My seafood?, well if it has a first and last name, I don't know I'd be calling it my food, perhaps my pet or acquaintance instead.

http://www.slagoon.com/charactr/sherman.html
http://www.neosoft.com/~bloom/posterphoto.jpg
http://www.sea-monkey.com/

[Sabu]

My apologies Planet. I did not mean to seem condescending or to give the impression that I was gloating. But you are almost correct, I did mistake this forum, but for a BJJ forum.

The mount? Is it being suggested that in order to train for the ground, you must assume the mount?????? That would be BJJ's method at training the ground, not Wing Chun's. Hence the difference in the name. Don't forget that BJJ trains to be on the floor, Wing Chun does not. So why get comfortable there unless you're waiting for some birthday wacks.

And please do not forget that Wing Chun IS a complete system, not a subsidiary of another art. Also, it is not an amalgamation of various subsidiaries of other arts.

"Hope this helps"

[black and blue]

Sabu say: "Is it being suggested that in order to train for the ground, you must assume the mount??????"

No one said 'must' for the mount in training for the ground.

Sabu says: "Don't forget that BJJ trains to be on the floor, Wing Chun does not."

This expains your WC, Sabu. You don't train to be on the floor (ie. you/your sifu isnt acknowledging the fact this, despite your best efforts, is where you could end up.

You failed to answer planetwc's questions. Where do you train and with whom? How DO you train?

Isn't this forum about sharing information?

Duncan

[Alpha Dog]

Why not just train to avoid being on the floor? Why is everyone so eager to be mounted? is it because of Spring?

From what I understand, WC has groundwork but is smarter than BJJ because WC teaches us to do our dammedest to stay off the ground. Ergo, if your WC sans ground is good, you won't end up there. Early training of ground work rushes inexperienced students to a position of substantial weakness -- sounds great eh?

Of course I am full of **** so just disregard all this.

[red5angel]

I agree AD but only to a certain extant. You cant always avoid the floor, its like saying why dont we jst trian to not get hit. Well, we do to some extant but its not a very realistic expectation. If we train for both eventualities we will be ready for either.

[black and blue]

Nobody WANTS to go to the ground.

Everyone should train to prevent it (as goo WC does).

But, everyone should also train to deal with the event of them being taken down, regardless of the fact they'd rather it didn't happen.

The floor is the last place I WANT to be. If it so happens that I end up there, the person attacking me will try and dominate this position.

All I'm saying is that we should train for this event. It's nonsense to believe that because we train to stop being taken down, being taken down will never happen.

The expression "reality check" comes to mind :rolleyes:

Have any of you guys ever been in a real fight? I sometimes wonder :(

Duncan

[Alpha Dog]

What do you do, for a living or otherwise, Duncan, that makes getting into fights so unavoidable? Check that reality while you're at it!

[black and blue]

Alpha Dog - My answer to your question makes even me laugh. For the last 4 years I've worked as a journalist (in Central/Eastern Europe and the UK)....

I guess what I do for a living DOES make me quite punchable :)

But seriously, idiots punching, grabbing, clinching, squeezing (!), or using rugby tackles, flying-leap-at-guy-over-bar-table... are the staple.

Toe to toe fisty-cuffs... in our dreams. Wakey wakey Jet Li fans who practise Kung Fu :)

Some fights ARE avoidable... some. I was covering a story on football violence in Hungary once, and actually saw a group of nutters trying to derail a train carriage. After deciding the 20 or so of them couldn't 'rock' it over, they headed in my direction towards a bar - none of them looking too happy. Suffice to say I didn't hang around with my press card dangling from my shirt :D

Sometimes legs work better running than kicking...

Duncan

[yuanfen]

Have any of you guys ever been in a real fight? I sometimes wonder
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer: Does one absolutely have to have a disease to learn
self defense against it? But to answer your question-
There is a danger of sounding self serving...but the short answer
is yes...in several countries-including yours. Foolishness of youth-
wrong time wrong places. Since then- avoidance or keeping it more brief..minimizing escalation. The other guy(s) went to the ground everytime except once when pulled by one guy in a group from the back. I was taking care of the guy in the front.Rolled out got back up-took care of the situation.In some of these my life was in danger.Apart from these personal encounters-have seen more real(hand to hand) fights in civil war and war than most VN vets have seen.
If you think that bjj will prepare you for gravel, black top, rocks,
small bar, multiple opponents-good luck. make sure you have a nice mat and thick gis when you go for it.And make sure you work out with guys who know what tapping out means.:(

[Alpha Dog]

No wonder you must learn to defend yourself against physical attack!!

[red5angel]

B&B, saying you are starting to doubt whether we have been in fights isnt fair. How many fights before you "know" what you are talking about? What qualifies as a fight? I was in the marine corp for 4 years, fighting is unavoidable, I never went to the ground. Doesnt mean I wont train for it. I work security for aplace in the fall that recquires I regularly wrestle drunks to the ground or drag them out kicking and screaming, hasnt been a year gone by yet that I havent had to do this, still havent gone to the ground. I will train for it though.
Experience isnt always the answer.

[black and blue]

Q. "How many fights before you 'know' what you are talking about."

A. 1 fight or 1,000 fights, no one ever truly "knows". But the more you encounter, the more you see, the more you realise you've got to be as prepared as possible.

Running is def. my favourite technique. There are times when you want to test the WC you have, but a crazy, tatooed, 250lb Neo-Nazi (as one example) ISN'T the person to be messing with.

As said before, I'll do anything to avoid going down. I know a guy that was approached by a small group of people. One asked him for the time, and as he looked at his watch, the guy smashed an unopened can of Coke into his face (busting the nose, damaging the eye).

As he fell down, the gang had five seconds of fun kicking him in the head, ribs, legs, before running off with his wallet and £7 in cash.

I'm not so sure how to handle that type of attack :(

But, for example, anyone working a door and thus been in many punching matches, will tell you big guys just want to crush you. They ain't gonna do this with butterfly kicks from a distance.

Fights are messy - none of this Bruce Lee sh*t :) People like to headbutt, kick in the shins, grab you and start shaking you (!), bearhug you, trip you. All from about 2 inches away as they spit abuse in your face.

Hmmm. Fighting. Good, clean, family fun! :)

[red5angel]

Agreed, no matter how many fights it is hard to say what an expert is on the subject. And fights are always messy......

[planetwc]

Originally posted by Sabu
My apologies Planet. I did not mean to seem condescending or to give the impression that I was gloating. But you are almost correct, I did mistake this forum, but for a BJJ forum.

The mount? Is it being suggested that in order to train for the ground, you must assume the mount?????? That would be BJJ's method at training the ground, not Wing Chun's. Hence the difference in the name. Don't forget that BJJ trains to be on the floor, Wing Chun does not. So why get comfortable there unless you're waiting for some birthday wacks.

And please do not forget that Wing Chun IS a complete system, not a subsidiary of another art. Also, it is not an amalgamation of various subsidiaries of other arts.

"Hope this helps"

This reply does help.

I would look to the mount in terms of someone trying to obtain that position on me and dealing with them getting attempting to rain down punches. Would I enjoy being in that situation? Nope.
Which is why I was wondering what, if any, situational training others are doing.

I've never heard a Wing Chun term for the positions mentioned. They are known now to most folks with an interest in fighting and are probably something opponents would want to do to you. So it is convenient to use BJJ terminology in the face of our art not having that term.

The natural response of a Wing Chun fighter would be to NOT want to roll on the ground etc. And if it did happen to get up quickly to stay in our optimum range. However, how many of us train to deal with "Murphy" and get out of those sitautions when you are on the ground and want to get up, yet someone would rather you stay there? :)

That would imply having someone take you there or starting there and working your way through with Wing Chun principles on getting back up.

Say someone gets through your defense and performs a single leg and they are proceeding to blast through your legs to get Mount to rain down an ungodly amount of punches. Or they are simply getting ready to armlock or armbar you.

The ground is a likely place one could end up being, given that we are normally standing on it. Of course we might prefer that we are always standing and our opponent is on it in a horizontal position watching little birds flying around his head.

Like so: :confused:

:D

WT has it's "antigrappling" training. I was wondering what other instructors are teaching if anything.