The problem with Southern styles...

[Juggler]

What to do against kickers?

Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Muay Thai, and other medium-to-long-range styles which promote kicks. How do you deal with them if you practise short-range styles?

It's all good to hear the theoretical side of closing the gap, but has anyone here applied those theories with success?

[handsome]

You can bet on it!!! try Wing Chun and Chu Gar Tong Long-- the answers are there for you to discover.

[joedoe]

Southern styles deal with kicks just fine :)

What, blocking a kick is unacceptable? What about stepping in and blocking it before it reaches max power? Works for me.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[Juggler]

I train in Chow Gar Tong Long. I guess I'm just not up to training against 'advanced' kickers. All the kick defences I've been taught, seem rigid and too much force-on-force.

I've read stories about Wing Chun stylists who have had their arms broken, whilst trying to block TKD kicks, etc. What do you do to prevent that from happening?

[meltdawn]

Ask your master.

And train harder.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[vingtsunstudent]

if you've heard stories of wing chun guys breaking their arms i can tell you that they don't know wing chun.
for the most part your arms don't have to do that much when blocking kicks.
really the longest kick someone has is a side kick(unless they are running jumping kicks-then i suggest you just step out of the way & watch them fly by) & for it to have any power it should connect still slightly bent to have penetration, therefore you should only be half a step away from nullifying the kick or atleat taking most of its force away.
southern(if not all styles) have to be at a close range to employ their strikes so be cofident & move to this range quickly & you will generally find people from tkd & the like now feel very uncomfortable which should make your job easier.
also rember that stepping in whist they're trying to kick will most likely take them off balance as they are only on one leg.
vts

[illusionfist]

ADAPT

[popsider]

What do TKD etc do to block their own high kicks?

[freestyler]

Kicks delivered with power are usually easy to read and can be quickly avoided by moving out of the way. And attack quickly as soon as they complete the kick. They are often off balance from a highly commited kick.

I've done TKD for a while and know how quickly a side or a front kick can come. And they can still come up with quite alot of power. Often the best thing to do is grit your teeth and block. And kick the groin area or knee immediately. That's a very southern thing to do hey. :)

Unfortunately if you're on the street, blocking a kick could cause much damage because shoes hurt more than bare feet. But kick those nuts, smash that knee, and punch his face silly.

[ChitownMantis]

(Bowing in)
The best way to defend against a kick , is to not to be there when the kick get there. I am not saying this having studied Gung Fu. I am saying this from growing up in the street of Chicago.

Also there arts along with the one I studied that teach you to strike before the kick or punch is thrown.

Trust me if someone kick you and you step under the kick the things that you can do are endless

Power over strengh, Knowledge over ignorance.

(Bowing Out)

[Lucky Red]

when i was training karate i was mainly a kicker
here is a list of somethings a kicker (atleast me)
does not like some of this is probably not the best thing to do against a very skilled kicker
there is alot more but it is best to be shown
stuff like this plus i have a hard time trying to
explain what i mean in english


1.attack at ones just (he can only kick one or two times if he is really fast)

2.try to move to the sides instead of back and forth

3.when he retreats imediatly follow (QUICKLY) cuz
then he need distance

4. dont attack direct on him because that is easy to defend with a front kick
attack from the sides
specially from the from the side that his back is open so if youre facing him and he has the left foot up move froward and right he will then
have to reatreat or change the foot he is standing on

5.Block the leg when it is Close to the Body (his body) beacause there is no power in the kick

6. try to get him to retreat if u think it is difficult to punch when youre reatreating just try kickeing

Evil grows deep in shallow Minds

[Juggler]

Thanks for the replies. :)

Will take all suggestions to heart.

[gordonliu]

Choy li fut, hung gar, and even wing chun have all been effective against those that kick.

Peace :)

[joedoe]

Stepping in and blocking a high kick a bit further up the kicker's leg means that you block before the kick reaches full power, and you are blocking a point with less leverage and so it is less likely to do damage. It also puts you into striking range for hand techniques.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[Je Lei Sifu]

My success with blocking the kicks of TKD stylist, was to use Pek Jeung against the instep of the kicking foot, or to block with the forearm against the shin during a roundhouse kick or a front kick.

In each situation, my opponent stopped immediately after the block, because the shin or foot became injured with bruises and lumps.

But it may be that I was just fortunate in these situtaions.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[BIU JI]

Half the problem is people think that sth systems kicks aren't so good. There's more ranges than just kicking range, ya can't kick your way out of everything , sooner or later you have to get close to punch on.Or biu ji chan cheun soi kiul ,,,,,,,

[Ben Gash]

Half of you obviously have never fought a decent kicker, as you are clearly living in a fantasy land and giving stock shorthand answers. Slow, move out the way etc etc etc.
OK, lets key in another factor here, timing. A decent kicker will attack you when you have all the weight on one foot, or you are off balance. He will lead with his hands first to draw your hands, or he will wait for you to attack and create an opening. Unless he thinks it's going to surprise you, he is not going to just suddenly kick. I have kicked many people in the head in training, in competition, and for real, and half of them never even saw it coming.
When fighting a kicker, the same principles apply as when fighting anyone. I would avoid using hard palm blocks as you are likely to damage your wrist. Move forwards and inside the kick, to diminish it's power, and absorb it. This is very well facilitated by leg checking with the knee or shin. If it's too fast, or the distance too short gather your forearms and again, absorb the kick, and if possible, drive your elbow into it. Anyone who's ever kicked an elbow will tell you, there's no pain quite like it.If you've used this defence, then you can try for a leg grab, which will then facilitate striking to the face and support leg, or a leg throw.
If you can't get a leg grab, then instantly attack the face, which they will instinctively defend, leaving the body and legs exposed.
If you haven't managed to get inside when you've blocked, then rush and attack as they put their foot down. They will be off balance, and only the most skillful will be able to get off a second kick at the shorter range.
When you're on the offensive, utilise low kicks, stamps and sweeps, as this will diminish their ability to kick effectively.
I hope you've got enough pointers there.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[rogue]

Good work Ben.

You guys could also stop by a good TKD, Muay Thai or kickboxing school and study it for a little while. You'll learn what works and what doesn't real fast durng sparring.

I'll be going now.

[fiercest tiger]

there is only attack, dont let the opponent fight his fight, move in and go off.

if you sit back and fight a kicker and you are no good at that range he will pick you off everytime, use knees and elbow to distruct the leg coming in.

my 2 cents worth.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[vingtsunstudent]

i'm sorry, wasn't my reply in english or are you all just to stupid to have understood what i meant?
vts

[Je Lei Sifu]

Excuse me, but I thought I made a statement on my experience and no one elses. What I have post about the situations I have had, worked for me. That does not mean it will work for anyone else. Just as the statements that were posted about the way others would or have fought against kickers. It's about individuality and what works for you, not others. I have use open hands to strike a kicking foot, as well as use my forearms to strike the shins and never have I been injured from it. But on the other hand, my opponents were injured.

I have no reason to make myself look better than the next man nor do I have time to lie about things that did not happen. If what works for me does not work for you, then you should not try it, just as I would not try anything that I have not trained myself to do.

No fantasy on my part, just experience.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[Je Lei Sifu]

If I cannot use the strength of my hands to get on the inside of a kicker, then I will stay at a disadvantage due to my height.

So if I do not train my hands to do injury to the striking limb, be it hand or foot, than I spent years learning something that is useless and ineffective (terms used by certain other groups on this board to describe gung fu), and all my experiences with being able to stop a kicker with the strength of my forearms were just illusions (not).

once again

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[rogue]

Je Lei, it's not that the techniques of using the hands or arms to stop kicks is wrong, but it is fairly high risk.
One of my favorite techniques against a straight kick is to move in and hit spleen #10 with a palm heel strike as the legs coming up, or hit GB-31 or stomach #34 against roundhouse and side kicks. It's one of the few things I'm real good at, but if one thing goes wrong I could end up with broken fingers or even a broken wrist, neither of which is condusive to carrying on a fight. The point is for most people maybe getting out of the way is lower risk.

BTW, what part of the forearm do you block kicks with? Just wondering since bruised or broken forearms are infamouse in karate schools.

[DF]

There is an old saying in kung fu:
gerk loa gerk siu which roughly translates as counter the opponent leg(kicks) with your own leg (kicks).

peace

DF

[inyo]

some possibilities--(1)move out of the way
(2)anticipate the kick,move in and break their friggin leg by striking their knee joint. (3)kick them in the groin as they are about to kick you.
(4)go in close(don't hold back)and jam them up--(most styles teach lifting the knee up first before throwing a kick )and deliver an elbow,backfist,headbutt---- to the face and keep attacking until they're down.
(5)if you have well conditioned arms and plenty of guts --break their leg with a block -- i've trained in styles that focus on fighting kickers with the primary aim of severely incapacitating their opponent i.e break the leg.
(6)my preference however is to deflect and immediately counter--step to the side -cover -and deflect the kick in the direction it is going and immediately counter with what ever techniques come spontaneously--ridge hand to the throat,back fist to the face,elbow,wrist-----
(7)another way is to wait for them to start to kick and attack quickly and irresolutely with a kick of your own --these 2 have worked for me in tournaments--opponent throws a front kick--you immediately throw a spinning heel kick to their head--(they attack with rt leg -you beat them to target with your lft leg or visa versa)--same if they throw a round house.--opponent throws a front kick and you immediately throw a round house to their head--either foot .--these only work if you are quicker and can get the jump on your opponent.(these were spontaneous reactions,no thought involved)
(8)dash in quickly and strike your opponent on the run--should knock him/her out.
(9)relax
(10)run away.

[inyo]

timing is everything.

[nickle]

i hate to sound like a ***** but i hope none of you who have so far contributed to this forum are wing chun practitioners.

if any of you are, have you never heard of the famous words "let hands deal with hands, and legs with legs"???

comon all you need to do is kick the leg kicking at you...

ie a StopKick...????

HELLOOO??? if the kick is waist hight, you can kick the kick, if it is lower you can kick the kick, if it is any higher, you can move out of the way, and crush the committed kickers thigh when you close in...

im sure a lot of southern styles have stop kicks,

comon guys, DEFEND THE SOUTH !

-specialization is for ants-

[nickle]

hahaha, sorry guys, i only saw page two after i wrote my first post. sorry if i managed thoughroughly to **** anyone off, anyways, i really do think the best thing to do is a stop kick...

all those posts on timing... DEFINATELY...timing is everything, and if your fighting a kicker, he will time his kicks to catch you when your unable to defend. but if your timing if good, youll be able to kick his kick etc as he starts his "brilliantly timed" kick.

ciao
sorry about the insults...
:D

-specialization is for ants-

[Je Lei Sifu]

High kicks are risky, just as well, fighting is risky.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[joedoe]

Nickle,

There is more than one way to skin a cat. The rule you use "Let hands deal with hands and legs with legs" is fair enough, but not the only way.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[BIU JI]

If you always wait for his kick then you'll most likely get it but you can attack his leg as he kicks and move inside his kick so it's difficult for him to follow up. Alot of kickers expect you do "move away" "dodge" etc but moving in is more affective. Just don't be afraid of kicks.

[Ben Gash]

I'm not saying you can't strike the leg with a palm, I'm saying that if you try to stop a turning kick with pak sau you will hurt your wrist.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[rogue]

Very true. While I've yet to break my wrists I have sprained them a bunch of times. But when it works, it's great.