Kung Fu = a better way to fight

[fa_jing]

I think sometimes there is a point being missed in all of these "Kung Fu vs. MMA" threads. I have seen numerous statements like "A good kick-boxer will destroy most so-called Kung Fu masters," which beside being ridiculous, completely misses the point. We who practice Kung Fu, are looking for a better way to fight. Now, simple techniques work the best, but most of us are familiar with the jab, cross, uppercut, hook. I think there are very few if any Kung Fu styles surviving today that are more limited than this. Most Kung Fu styles contain these movements, and a lot more. Basically, honing your fighting abilities in the physical sense, comes down to conditioning and techniques. MMA schools are winning competitions because of superior conditioning, not a theroretically superior technique. If they have superior technique, it is because of superior training, not superior theory. The whole point behind studying a sophisticated style is to gain an advantage over your opponent, who has not. The point is NOT to learn a bunch of useless techniques that one will never remember in a confrontation. If this is happening then you really are wasting your time. We should really strive to make our styles' techniques our own, so that when we kickbox for training, we are using both principles and modified motions from our Kung Fu arsenal. To me, learning Kung Fu gives me the superior theory, one that still must be tested as far as my own application of it, but nonetheless an advantage over say, the TKD theory (or lack thereof) that I got way back when. An avantage over boxing theory, which is already contained within most styles, but Kung Fu takes it several steps further.

Now, as far as training principles, traditional training has it's place. So does modern training. The main difference nowadays is the availability of modern devices such as weight racks, exercise machines, stopwatches, jumpropes, bags, protective gear. These should be used by any serious martial artist whose art has any external component to it.

I'll take any hard-sparring Kung Fu over kickboxing. I feel my brain can handle the extra knowledge.

-FJ

[Merryprankster]

I think sometimes there is a point being missed in all of these "MMA'ers vs. Kung Fu" threads. I have seen numerous statements like "A Kung Fu master will destroy most so-called MMAer's," which beside being ridiculous, completely misses the point. We who practice MMA, are looking for a better way to fight. Now, simple techniques work the best, but most of us are familiar with the jab, cross, uppercut, hook. I think there are very few if any MMA schools surviving today that are more limited than this. Most MMA schools contain these movements, and a lot more. Basically, honing your fighting abilities in the physical sense, comes down to conditioning and techniques. Kung Fu schools claim theroretically superior technique, but many places don't seem to have the conditioning necessary to hold up in these competitions, so we never get to see it. If they have superior technique, it's certainly not in their superior fight training! The whole point behind studying a sophisticated style like MMA is to gain an advantage over your opponent, who has not. The point is NOT to learn a bunch of useless techniques that one will never remember in a confrontation. If this is happening then you really are wasting your time. We should really strive to make our styles' techniques our own, so that when we spar for training, we are using both principles and modified motions from our MMA arsenal. To me, learning MMA gives me the superior theory, one that still must be tested as far as my own application of it, but nonetheless an advantage over say, the TKD theory (or lack thereof) that I got way back when. An avantage over boxing theory, which is already contained within most styles, but MMA takes it several steps further.

Now, as far as training principles, traditional training has it's place. So does modern training. The main difference nowadays is the availability of modern devices such as weight racks, exercise machines, stopwatches, jumpropes, bags, protective gear. These should be used by any serious martial artist whose art has any external component to it.

I'll take any hard-sparring MMA over Kung Fu. I feel my brain can handle the extra knowledge.

And for my next trick, I'll pull a table out of my arse!


:rolleyes:

[MonkeySlap Too]

Great post!

And I agree - I just put myself back on a hardcore conditioning regimine. Most fights are won in the will.

The other factor that works against the CMA scene is that there is a lot of bad kung fu. Some of it wasn't bad to begin with, but teachers hold back and don't train the students properly. That fact plus the mcdojo's are a serious blow to our credibility.

[Julien]

hmmm... meh, fighting an unenlightened person knowing kung fu...

i'd say the person who knows kung fu is much more likely to win

if they both have same builds, it's like having the same weapons.
the skilled swordsman fights the green swordsman. the skilled swordsman will very likely walk away unscathed.

(knife fights are much different but i liked this analogy)

[DelicateSound]

I pretty much agree. But superior theory will not win you the fight. APPLICATION of superior theory will. Combined will conditioning, muscle, power and the almighty belief that you will tear the f*ckers god-da mned head off. :)


And MPS only scoffs when he has no comeback. :D



MonkeySlap: Too many schools have a commercial front with a good hardcore club exclusive for certain folks IME. Reduces the success pool really.

[guohuen]

I fight with Gong Fu because I've developed the muscleature and jings to make it work for me. Before I was ready I used Jiu Jutsu and Shotokan. Two fine arts that kept me alive for years.

[NPMantis]

Personally I believe other styles can only beat a good form of kung fu in a controllend environment where we are not allowed to use many of the techniques we are trained in - I'm not talking about a 20 move combo or something, I'm talking about simpler things like the spear hand, etc.

[apoweyn]

trust me, MPS has a comeback. but there are only so many times you can make the same arguments.

i think fa jing made a lot of good points, but we keep falling back into the same... trap?

why is it that we can't have a discussion about good theory, good training, good application, etc. without time and again dividing ourselves along stylistic lines?

kickboxers only win because of this. kung fu could win because of that. taekwondo lacks this. kung fu has that. (actually, to be fair, fa jing didn't say that taekwondo lacked theory, only that his experience of taekwondo lacked theory, with which i can completely sympathize).

we keep retreading these same lines of rationalization. kung fu has more maneuvers and theory than kickboxing, therefore if kung fu people were well conditioned enough, they'd have the advantage.

to put it succinctly, i'm wondering why we have to insist on reducing every style to one or two 'keywords' and then give it no more credit than that.

kickboxing = little theory but good conditioning

that's a big, useless crock of crap. and if we continue to discount other styles, people, training methods, etc. with this sort of lazy reasoning, then we're never going to get any closer to the truth of the situation. we're just going to keep spinning in ever smaller and dumber circles.

kung fu = looks pretty but no application

JUST AS BIG AND USELESS A CROCK OF CRAP.

for crying out loud, people, we're smarter than this. aren't we?! we're homing in on some really good, solid understandings. but why on earth do we have to keep relying on the same shallow assumptions to get there?

'a carefully researched and directed combination of theory, training, and application will yield a better martial artist than results from a training regimen lacking in any one of these areas (i.e., lots of theory with little application or lots of application with less sound theory).'

see that? a logically sound statement that didn't require one iota of baseless assumptions or derision toward another style. how hard is that?

i'm sorry. i've gone on a tear. but i keep thinking about how much further we could go if we just got past this constant absurd bickering about what kung fu, kickboxing, taekwondo, etc. ad nauseum are capable of.


stuart b.

[shaolinboxer]

Perhaps things would be better if we didn't keep turining all of martial arts into some bizarre, circular, pointless competition.

[apoweyn]

shaolinboxer,

if i get your meaning, i agree wholeheartedly.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

NPMantis

Russia. Brazil.

No eye-gouging, no biting. All else is legal in several venues in those countries. Or are two rules too limiting? Or are we going to talk about how no self respecting KF guy would ever fight in a sportive event? Or perhaps we'll discuss how the ring is not the street and you train for self defense and to kill? Heaven knows the KWOON is JUST like the street!
:rolleyes:

And more or less what Ap said.

[bongtzu]

Isn't that really what the Martial Arts have always been about?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending that ideology, I'm just pointing out the truth as I see it.

It seems to me that as long as civilization has had Martial Arts, it has had arguments over who's MA is superior. From clans to villages to entire countries, Martial Artists have always claimed that the style they practice is the best one of all.
How many needless deaths occured in older times because of egotistic challenges and duels, or schools burnt down because of petty rivalries??

The time we're in now is good. Bruce Lee has come and gone, but he left behind the idea that all styles should not only be respected, but not segregated into "styles" at all. And with the countless internet forums Martial Artists have to connect and talk, we can compare without the fear of hostility (physically, at least). The only blows exchanged are words, the only thing bruised are egos. So I believe that apoweyn (Stuart) has a very
valid point - we could be doing all of ourselves a favor if we could help each other out, and share tips and techniques, instead of trying to prove once and for all who's style is better. 'Cuz if it hasn't been proven beyond a doubt yet, it most likely never will be.

I apologize for rambling...

[apoweyn]

cheers bongtzu


stuart

[scotty1]

Trolling Fa Jing? ;) :)

I agree with Ap and Bong. Hmm, I haven't applied an ap to a bong for ages.

I can't even be arsed to reply to this one, no offense Fa Jing but I can see the way its going to go. Been there, done it.

****, I'll bite.

Just because kickboxing has less techniques does not mean that there is any less scientific applications of those theories or combinations that they could be thrown in.

No point carrying around twelve guns if you're going to only be able to get 3 shots off.

Yes, its nice to have options, but how many options can you really rely on under pressure? That's right, the ones you've trained well. So go and bloody train instead of b!tching about how kungfu is a higher level of fighting.

[red5angel]

"why is it that we can't have a discussion about good theory, good training, good application, etc. without time and again dividing ourselves along stylistic lines? "

this smacks of Bruce Lee Ap! ;) Although I am a fan of his films, and the man had some good ideas, I think he was missing some things, the same things most people who start this sort of argument. If I were to say to you that I had been studying MA for 16 years, would you believe the things I said to be true? How about if I died after making a few good movies? ;)

Really though I think the problem is that as martial artist we grow, or mature in our art. For some, we reach a point where we realize that it isnt the weapon, its the wielder. True there may be some weak arts out there but in general if you have the will you will win. I could break your nose or your arm but if you have decided that even after that you are going to get me, you have a good chance of doing so, whether you are trained or not. Most people of course dont have that sort of willpower, and so we can overcome most attackers, hopefully.

A good skilled "Fill in the blank" can beat most people, thats why he is considered skilled. Will he win all his fights? Maybe, but probably not. Especially if he fights frequently. If he does his skill should get better right? Of course but he may have a bad day, or meet someone just that much better or has that much more drive to win. anyone with half a brain in the martial arts will humbly admit that the chance of a "Wail and Flailer" can beat them. i have a friend who is huge, if he tackled me and got his arms around me I would be done, he has no training, and I hope that maybe, just maybe the trianing will give me the edge I need to stay away!
Ultimately, if you practice an art, you probably believe it is pretty good, and sometimes believe it is superior. I dont practice Wing Chun because it is crap and it does not work. I dont think anyone on this forum practices an art they dont believe in.

Bongtzu - "Bruce Lee has come and gone, but he left behind the idea that all styles should not only be respected, but not segregated into "styles" at all. "

Are you trying to stir the pot a little? :) Bringing up Mr. Lee is almost as bad as mentioning your art is the best! he had some excellent ideas. I think his idea of no more styles was a little too utopian. Some need the structure. I like to believe that he would have come to the belief that styles are necessary for various reasons, but our ultimate goal is to become formless. I talk alot about making an art your own. That I believe is the second step, the first is studying technique and style, the last is formlessness, most of us reach that in death.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

well, i've been training for 17 years, and people don't take what i say to be true. must be the lack of a movie career. :)

there's a reason that it smacks of bruce lee, yeah. he was a big influence. guilty as charged. and he pointed me in the direction of daoism, krishnamurti, and a bunch of other influences.

that said, my assertion stands. i'm not suggesting that people not like their style, not take pride in their style, etc. i'm suggesting that we stop making shallow assumptions about other styles in order to increase the prestige of our own.

you think that wing chun is all you'll ever need. and that's fine. it may well even be true. but i've never noticed you to make blanket statements about everything else to justify that.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

p.s. bruce lee was in the habit of making derisive observations about other styles (some valid, some perhaps not so much). i try not to do that.

[red5angel]

Hey Ap - admittedly he was an influence on my kungfu habit. He also had some very good things to say, but like everyone else sometimes did not practice what he preached.
I do agree with you on the pride of style. It is not necessary, confidence should be enough. I also agree with you on the shallow assumptions, as I stated before, normally some of us grow past that to truer realisations. As for blanket statements, if I have made one in the past I was deeply mistaken and or under the influence of something heavily mindbending!
I think ultimately we reach a state of respect, I can respect a tae kwon do man/woman, thier art is good for what they apparently need it for. I can respect a BJJ guy, his art seems to fit him well and works for him. I can respect both arts, for they exist and are propogated which means they can stand on thier own feet.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

sounds fair enough to me.

as for bruce lee, believe it or not, i'm not a big fan of the movies. and while the books were an early influence, i'm not a huge fan of them either. i like the idea, but as is so often the case, the idea got big enough to be unwieldy.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Ap - I enjoy the movies, not for thier shining examples of martial arts :) but for entertainment. When I was young, it was good, now that I am older, it has nostalgia. Other then Mr. Lee being fast, I have never seen an example of excellent MA from him, good, but not perfect. he was a very good and very dedicated athlete and he probably had good martial skill as well.
As for his books, well, he had some good ideas, some good concepts. Without getting into the murky darkness of JKD, I would say that these are all they were, he was forming philosophies and ideals that had ****her to go. Sadly he died before really accomplishing what he probably could have. his glaring weakness was his overconfidence in his ability. This lead him to believe that he had some understanding of the arts that those who came before him, a folly of youth I believe. It would have been interesting to see where he would have gone with age. Would he have fallen to the marketing monster and stuck to his guns or if he had a change of mind, would he have followed that path?
Regardless he has had a profound impact on the martial arts, if not just for the fact that he is an icon of modern kungfu.

[red5angel]

A Daoist quote that is applicable :

"When you are ocntent to be simply yourself, and dont compare or compete, everybody will respect you."

[red5angel]

One more thing I was thinking of Ap - I think that if I have a failing in a combat situation, it is probably my failing and not the failing of Wing Chun........

[Merryprankster]

What if being content with yourself involves competing because it's fun to do?

[KC Elbows]

There goes Merryprankster again; at the moment when peace rears its ugly head, he's there with a sledgehammer to smash it.:D

[red5angel]

Then I say go for it, I am one of those people.......I believe in a little healthy competition.

[apoweyn]

kc elbows,

that review of 'the one' in your signature is just about the funniest g*d**** thing i've ever read.


red5angel,

well, you can certainly see it that way. and empirically, there's no real way to argue the point. in fact, it makes more sense than blaming the style for your failure in any given instance.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Well, today is a brand new day. Reading your responses was interesting, I appear to have stirred the pot a little, and I see that some agree. MPS had a great response, he yin-yanged me pretty good. The fact is, MMA can be a lot more sophisticated than kickboxing! And a mix of non-Chinese arts could very well be equal to or superior to a given Kung-Fu style. One of my points is that keeping your movements as basic as possible is not a forgone conclusion, as a sizeable minority of people on this board seem to think. Building your arsenal only around what's popular in the MMA-competition world, also not a forgone conclusion. One may desire to gain an advantage by seeking out the most highly developed fighting arts, and making some of these techniques and theory their own. And some of the most highly developed arts are not currently popular among most MMA practicioners, of course many are, but Kung Fu isn't. Look at the success of BJJ in competition. In the time it took for MMA practicioners to adopt some of these techniques, BJJ was winning like crazy. The same thing could and might happen with Kung Fu, except that it is really not geared towards this format. It's just a very traditional and culturally peculiar environment, and these competitions are not the focus of the training. It could easily change, but generally, the current Kung Fu masters aren't spending their time training competitors in the US. Maybe they don't care, maybe they're not being asked, maybe they are not liked, maybe they can't communicate. Maybe they have a hard time adjusting themselves to working this way. Actually, some of the fault lies with these masters, the airs they put on, the tradition of secrecy and witholding of knowledge that permeates the Gong-Fu world. Imagine telling Tito Ortiz to sweep the kwoon and feed master's fish, so he can learn a few movements. There's also the xenophobia of some Chinese and the position (cop out??) that if these styles are revealed to the world, that Kung-fu will become less special. And of course, the Kung-fu charlatans have literally given us all a bad reputation.

Learning good Kung-Fu is like a breath of fresh air, a tasty experience. It is an absorption of battle tested strategy, a hands-on, tactile experience of the power and science of human motion.
It is an appreciation. If you as a beginner, or intermediate, are not in awe of your sifu's ability, this is not good kung fu. If you do not see the body moving in a most advantageous and ingenuous way, this is not good Kung Fu. Learning good Kung-Fu leaves you no doubt to the effectiveness of the method. To those who have not experienced this, I say, get over it, and quit ripping on us just because we want to pursue available sophisticated martial knowledge. Gongfu is not the only source of this type of knowledge, but it is a good one, it develops us, and we like it.

:cool:

-FJ

[red5angel]

Ap - I believe this to be true. generally it is a lack of something on the part of the applicant and not the tool. But as you said it cannot be proven empirically! You monkey! See avatar for frame of reference.... :)

(When in check, always resort to name calling, it throws the opponent off balance and may hide and th facts...)

[apoweyn]

fa jing,

now that's a characterization of good gung fu that i can get behind. more importantly, good martial arts in general.

but for the record, i haven't ripped on you or gung fu in this thread. only on the rhetorical practice of making assumptions and assertions about other arts in support of your own.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Yeah, the people ripping Kung Fu haven't shown up too much on this thread. Except for Merry, good one, man. Mostly a bunch of trolls, as far as in the main forum. I've seen more this as a real opinion in the Street/reality forum, and on some non-KFO forums.

P.S. I wasn't really ripping on TKD, either. Just the lack of a theoretical framework in MY experience, as you said.

-FJ

[red5angel]

Fa - Jiing, while your passion for CMA is admirable, dont let it blind you to what else is out there. all that you say can be applied to any art, or artform. I myself am a CMA and while silently cheering you on ;) would have to say that there are other ways and those ways dont equate with bad ways.

Ap - LOL where is that avatar from anyway?

[Merryprankster]

A couple of comments:


Learning good Kung-Fu is like a breath of fresh air, a tasty experience. It is an absorption of battle tested strategy, a hands-on, tactile experience of the power and science of human motion.

Maybe. Maybe not. Kinda depends on how you're training, yeah? Works the same in boxing/wrestling/Judo/kickboxing, etc. My point is that it's not unique to Kung Fu.


It is an appreciation. If you as a beginner, or intermediate, are not in awe of your sifu's ability, this is not good kung fu. If you do not see the body moving in a most advantageous and ingenious way, this is not good Kung Fu. Learning good Kung-Fu leaves you no doubt to the effectiveness of the method.

A beginner or intermediate is in no position to judge the effectiveness of anything because just about anything, no matter how 'bad' will work on them. It ALL looks cool! They should be looking for qualities in the teacher/school they like and a training environment that REQUIRES frequent sparring from as close to day one as practicable. They will recognize advantageous and ingenious movement only through contact, sparring, and practice. To truly get an idea of whether or not what they are learning is advantageous and ingenious they have to work with/against people from outside their own training hall. If you have no basis for comparison....


Side note: You know, I've just noticed something and this is really kind of a crux--there seems to be resistance to the idea that the use of martial skill is a relationship, not a stand alone beast. Why is that?


Gongfu is not the only source of this type of knowledge, but it is a good one, it develops us, and we like it.


Well, THAT'S the REAL reason, isn't it!? Why didn't you say so in the first place?! Fun is only about 99% of the equation! :)

Lastly, I don't agree with the assertion that kickboxing is less sophisticated--neither is boxing. They don't have as much "stuff," but the application of what they have can be highly advanced. Is a Jab a lower level technique than the Diagonal Cut from Water Dragon's Shuai Chiao? I'm thinking not--it's the application of the technique that is high level or low level.

[bongtzu]

Didn't mean to stir any pots with the Bruce Lee comment, my humble apologies.

In retrospect that was sort of a wistful and empty reference. I thank you, red, for bringing it to my attention.

The point I was making was that I think one can practice one's style and feel pride in that style, but still have respect and even admiration for a variety of other styles. I also believe that one can be proficient in his/her chosen style, and still practice other styles to get a "feel" for them - a deeper understanding.

That's pretty much it.

[Merryprankster]

Fa_Jing man!

That's kind of not true... I'm not a Kung Fu hater... I'm a bad training hater. :) And Good KF schools don't train badly.

[red5angel]

Bongtzu - No hard feelings :) just wanted to avoid another MA beast! Its a legit reference but as you stated can be 'empty'. I agree totally with you about growing in ones art, having pride and still respecting anothers art. There is no reason to feel otherwise except out of ignorance or lack of self respect.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

it's an avatar i created. and if i could get the frikkin' thing to work, i'd show you the full version.

[red5angel]

well, if you do or it is a link of some sort just pm me with it! I wanna see the rest!

[fa_jing]

MerryPrankster - No problems, and in providing me responses you contribute to the development of the discussion. Besides, posters like you help keep Kung Fu people honest, makes sure we're not tripping around in a fantasy land, exposes where there is misinformation about training. Like Sifu says, "everyone wants to be a Kung Fu killer" and "the martial arts is not like instant coffee or instant tea." He's been through it before with students.
One more thing about CMA's image: thinking about it, the perception of Kung Fu suffers from the vast difference between Kung Fu as you see it in the movies, and Kung Fu applied in real life. People are disappointed when they find out it takes years of grueling training to attain proficiency, and even with this, you still can't take out 3 guys with knives and baseball bats, or fly or dodge bullets.

-FJ

[Merryprankster]

No worries.

I don't particularly think of Kung Fu killing, to be honest--but I don't think that's what you're trying to pin on me. I think you're just trying to say that people's expectations thanks to hollywood often exceed reality...and that sometimes, you need to make sure you don't buy your own press....

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

click (http://www.mindspring.com/~apoweyn/gorilla.htm)

[scotty1]

"Lastly, I don't agree with the assertion that kickboxing is less sophisticated--neither is boxing. They don't have as much "stuff," but the application of what they have can be highly advanced. Is a Jab a lower level technique than the Diagonal Cut from Water Dragon's Shuai Chiao? I'm thinking not--it's the application of the technique that is high level or low level."

100% agreed. That is what I was trying to say, and that is the opposite of what Fa Jing was aserting in his original post.

[fa_jing]

MPS - Yup.

Scotty1 - "Is a Jab a lower level technique than the Diagonal Cut from Water Dragon's Shuai Chiao? I'm thinking not--it's the application of the technique that is high level or low level"

"100% agreed. That is what I was trying to say, and that is the opposite of what Fa Jing was aserting in his original post."

Well, what I'm asserting is that jab theory is covered in a good Shaui Chiao class. Plus they teach you a few cool throws, too. The truth is, how much theory do you need to know how to jab? You need to know where it fits into your fighting arsenal, strategy, and tactics, and you need to know how to punch, something that is covered in any Kung Fu. Just train it. Have sombody watch you and work with you that knows how to do it, hopefully it's your teacher. Studying Kung Fu won't be any barrier to developing your jab if that's a motion you choose to fight and train. Jab's a good technique. I don't want to limit myself to it, though, as far as actions of the lead hand.

So, one of the points I was making was "Jab = same level technique as diagonal cut." also "I want to be proficient at both these things, and the best way for me and many others is a learning/training regimine that is majorly based on traditional Kung Fu."

What I would like to go on to say, is that I am fortunate to be studying under a teacher with experience fighting against a variety of styles. Of course, if your Sifu is not knowledgeable about Western Boxing, then he or she will have a difficult time preparing you against a style that you are significantly likely to come across in a confrontation in this country.
Same thing applies to grappling. Look, if I bought these anti -KF arguments, I'd say to my Sifu, "Let's forget about the Wing Chun striking and blocking and only work grappeling, throws, western boxing, and Kickboxing." Since he has experience in all these things. Now, he'd look at me like I was fuc-kin crazy, because of the fact that my teacher teaches everything as an integrated whole. Sometimes I don't know whether I'm doing a Qin Na from Wing Chun or a jiu-jistu lock. But it all fits into the theory I am being given by my teacher, and believe it or not, it all fits into a framework that is once again, majorly based on Wing Chun. My teacher has been a student of Ted Wong for 8 years, he is really good with JKD. Yet, I choose not to emphasize this in my studies, in fact I'm more like "give me more Wing Chun." Cause the sh!t is awesome, I understand it, and it fits right into my strategy for developing myself as a martial artist. I've got to admit, I love grappling and Qin Na, too. Haven't fallen in love with Western Boxing, though I like hitting the bag and the focus mitts.

Kung Fu is a great fit for a lot of people. Because it is so comprehensive, even a less comprehensive style like Wing Chun is more comprehensive than most of the popular non-chinese arts.
And the chinese arts have a well-thought out logic to them. Not to say they are absolutely better than other arts, just defending Kung Fu from detractors who would put them down as worse. And it is very possible to add to your Kung Fu, without losing your Kung Fu framework.

-FJ

[Merryprankster]

Fa_jing--

You're absolutely right--mostly :)

Kung Fu is NOT inferior to other arts--that's for sure. AND you can incorporate things without losing your framework--

Example--I don't like kicking. I just don't. I'm a wrestler and I like my feet on the ground, and I like boxing footwork--you can SHOOT off of boxing footwork BEAUTIFULLY. Boxing provides me with striking, the clinch gives me knees and elbows to play with...but I am learning to block kicks and counter punch from a boxing stance (which is just like my wrestling stance, only left side forward :)) It doesn't CHANGE anything, really---it's just something to add to the framework.

However, where I disagree with you a little is the "theory bit." A Jab is covered in Shuai Chiao, as an example. Well and good. I'm willing to bet that what a boxer can do with the jab is a little more refined than the Shuai Chiao guy, generally speaking--it's just an issue of time. :) I don't necessarily think that the theory behind Kung Fu is any better than boxing--just more tools in the tool box. Which doesn't necessarily translate into anything at all...

Not trying to be antagonistic, I promise... just rambling! :)

[DelicateSound]

I pretty much agree with 100% of MPS' and Fajing's argument here.

At the end of the day, almost all MA's overlap in someway, or are prepared for other situations etc.


Like MPS I dislike high kicking [It's toss] I'll only kick below the waist. However I also hate grappling [mainly because all grappling arts involve groundwork, so I hate training]

So for me good solid punching and defence is my focus. Wing Chun with a bit of boxing and a little Judo? It's what I'm aiming for.

[apoweyn]

now, why do you have to talk crap about high kicking?!

i've got a pair of 100-lb. running shoes that would frikkin kill ya if i kicked ya with them.

...

i lie.

:)

[DelicateSound]

i've got a pair of 100-lb. running shoes that would frikkin kill ya if i kicked ya with them.

I prefer Cat boots. And Ap - no disrespect, but you'd never get close :D


Seriously though - anyone here honestly use high kicking?!

[apoweyn]

big as my feet are, if you could see the whites of my eyes, my feet are already close. :)

in sparring, i've got no problem with high kicks. they're low percentage, but set up properly, i like em.

mostly, i kick low though.


stuart b.

[DelicateSound]

IMHO, why kick someone in the head when you can step thru his knee.

[apoweyn]

because his brain's not in his knee.

i'm not recommending high kicks. and i admit that they're risky. but i will train them.


stuart b.

[Tigerstyle]

"now, why do you have to talk crap about high kicking?!

i've got a pair of 100-lb. running shoes that would frikkin kill ya if i kicked ya with them." LOL!

I heard William Wallace used 100 lb. shoes, too. He would stomp the ground during battle to create powerful earthquakes. If any english troops were in range... :eek:


I like to kick high, too. I'm not great at it though, so I don't do it often.

DS, A good strategy could be to talk trash about high kicking when you're in pulic (in a bar, drinkin', for example). Say, "No man in their right mind would ever kick above the waist!".

When trouble comes - a - knockin', you can unleash the awsome power of a kick through the head/neck. That way you would accomplish 2 things: 1) Defeat an opponent with a technique that was totally unexpected, and 2) Establish that you're not "in your right mind", which will discourage further trouble (no one wants to mess with some crazy guy :p ).

[Grappling-Insanity]

Funny all this time I thought it was individuals fighting and not there arts. Theres only so many ways to punch and such. At higher levels everything becomes very similiar.

[shaolinboxer]

I honestly use high kicks and they honestly work..BUT...I follow certain rules.

The main rule is: use your lead leg. But the lead leg has no power whines the cavalry....not true I say! It takes a lot of intense training, but lead leg kicking is very effective.

The major problems with high kicks are:

They take too long to get where they are going (so you can see them coming).

They over commit you to attack.

They cause large movements in your upper body that telegraph your intentions.

OK. So the first part of the solution is a high fast chaimber of the knee. You cannot kick high unless you have a fast chamber. The second part is a silent upper body until the last second. The third is a quiet face. The fourth is clean flexibility. The fifth is where it gets hard...you need to develop a kick that acts like a one inch punch, generating power through an open hip, fast rotation, and solid but not excessive commitment. And finally, you need to be able to kick very fast, several times in a row.

I have used lead leg round houses and side kicks very effectively, and a fast, hard, solid lead leg is a surprise to many fighters, giving you an advantage.

I learned this from Shi Yang Ming, who has a lead leg kick that cuts the air.

[scotty1]

Yeah, I agree. If you had a high kick that you could whip out as quick and easy (to a certain extent) as a jab or low front kick, then you have a powerful weapon. Wouldn't try it in the street, but in competitions it could be awesome. Not all the time mind, more like a surprise.

Why train it if you can't use it in the street? The extra muscle control, co-ordination,balance, confidence (?) and power you get from high kicking for tourneys and such must translate very nicley indeed into all your other techniques.

So, high kicking as a way of improving your low kicks. Or that's the theory anyway.

Yes, its low percentage, takes time and takes commitment. So by executing it when your opponent is set up for it, and unable to counter turns it into a high percentage technique.

Lots of risk, but lots of reward. DelicateSound- ever been kicked in the head, hard? Knockout technique my man.

[fa_jing]

Another thread with a second surge. :D Looking back at this issue many months later, I just have to say that I still feel the same way, except that I have all the more respect for sport-fighting arts. There really is a wide array of techniques, styles, and training methods in Western Boxing, kickboxing and NHB that I didn't properly appreciate before. I've just been watching more tape which has changed my mind. I still think Kung Fu is a great way to increase your martial knowledge, if you have the right teacher. One who does away with some of the superficial nonesense at the kwoon that has nothing to do with fighting. The problem is classes with teenagers and parents of same who are looking for "discipline" for their children. I think the same was and is true in Asia.

[ShaolinTiger00]

We who practice Kung Fu, are looking for a better way to fight. Now, simple techniques work the best, but most of us are familiar with the jab, cross, uppercut, hook.

How did you get "familiar" with them? kungfu? LMAO. ninja please...

kungfu = a way to die.:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

Yo mama's so ugly, when she joined an ugly contest, they said "Sorry, no professionals."

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
We who practice Kung Fu, are looking for a better way to fight. Now, simple techniques work the best, but most of us are familiar with the jab, cross, uppercut, hook.

How did you get "familiar" with them? kungfu? LMAO. ninja please...

kungfu = a way to die.:rolleyes:

You're right. It wasn't Kung Fu where I first learned these techniques. It was Tae Kwon Do.

Then my sh!t got tightened up by my Sifu, who studied Western Boxing.

So I am well qualified to judge whether I like a technique or not, or if I choose to use another in it's place.

Looks like Troll or be Trolled around here.

[apoweyn]

you know, it was interesting to reread this thread just to see red5angel as an ardent wing chun dude again.

:)

[SifuAbel]

"kungfu = a way to die."

talk about self serving drivel.

Kiss it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Abel - A$$scratching baboon.

[SifuAbel]

Tiger or is it peedee or is it ralek,

Your head is the size of a greyhound bus and your ballz are microscopic.

Retarded isn't a strong enough word for the crap you mutter.

Its amazing how KF haters take kung fu names just to momentarily distact from their true nature.

Babble on, it all sounds like drunken bafoonery to me. Like a crack ho, trying to convince us she's miss america.

Bit<h.

[red5angel]

"you know, it was interesting to reread this thread just to see red5angel as an ardent wing chun dude again."


hehe, I am still into wing chun, just got tired of a lot of the crap in the art, like most of it out there and most of it's practitioners. not saying they aren't nice people, just don't get it is all.

[SifuAbel]

Hey willy,

Is that you on the web site?
Bwahahahahahahahaha
You look like a stick figure with a huge bulbous head. Its the funniest thing I have ever seen. Man I was only guessing before, but now its evident. LOL!

[SifuAbel]

It just occurred to me what your last pic reminded me of.

Jerry's kids. :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

Hmmm... Last time I saw ShaolinTiger, he was built more like a fire hydrant than a stick figure.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Tiger or is it peedee or is it ralek,

Your head is the size of a greyhound bus and your ballz are microscopic.

Retarded isn't a strong enough word for the crap you mutter.

Its amazing how KF haters take kung fu names just to momentarily distact from their true nature.

Babble on, it all sounds like drunken bafoonery to me. Like a crack ho, trying to convince us she's miss america.

Bit<h.

1.) Only the truly moronic and clueless still believe that Ralek and I are the same individual. I know several KFO'ers. many know my sifu's and my credibility has already been established.

2.) Resorting to attacks on personal appearance. Always a sign of a fragile ego lashing out in futile desperation. I feel embarrassed for you. Pathetic isn't the proper adjective.

You look like a stick figure with a huge bulbous head. Its the funniest thing I have ever seen.

-this is perhaps the most incorrect, funny cutown I've ever heard.
As MerryPrankster mentioned, My neck is probably thicker than your thigh and my shoulders, chest, arms thighs are equally thick and muscular. A 5'10" fire hydrant. yeah that's pretty accurate.

Since I doubt you've ever competed full contact, you may not be aware of the gross exxaggeration that headgear may give to a profile.

without the headgear (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/p083c57d7bb31cc83adcc2c8d2b1ee533/fd00c866.jpg)

and yes my balls are microscopic. I had a surgery performed specifically for that cosmetic appearance. It makes my c0ck look HUGE!

3.) Its obvious you cannot handle my opinion. much like a monkey tosses feces in desair, you spout off at the mouth.

The great thing about Abel - The majority of kungfu guys know that they aren't the best fighters and that there are better ways but they just like the chinese culture, weapons etc and are perfectly happy. Abel actually believes that he is "deadly" and that his style is superior to those training full contact and unscripted.
How many times did KnifeFighter offer you a venue to show your supreme fighting skills? 4 that I can think of, where the rules were very minimal, yet you denied every one of them. Smart move as you know, as well as every person on here that he would have owned you thru and thru!
You're the one who "babbles" Able. I follow thru on what I say.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
"you know, it was interesting to reread this thread just to see red5angel as an ardent wing chun dude again."


hehe, I am still into wing chun, just got tired of a lot of the crap in the art, like most of it out there and most of it's practitioners. not saying they aren't nice people, just don't get it is all.

yeah, i know. sorry. didn't mean to make it sound like you'd done a 180. (of course, the wing chun forums would be just what the doctor ordered to make me do a 180.) nor do i mean to make it sound like you were once lost, and now are found. it's just that you (and everyone else) go through this gradual shift in perspective. but this thread was a snap shot of the two extremes.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

no problem Ap, I gotcha. I was perusing the WC forum yesterday and came across that thread about WC in the UFC or something. I just had to shake my head. I don't get it, that forum is totally different from any other forum I have ever been too!

Although I have to say Kali is a hell of a lot more fun!!

[SifuAbel]

Yeah, a fire hydrant on stilks. Dude, you need better pictures. Your "intent' look is moronic.

The full spread of your out of shape body is laughable. You look like you have 0 foundation and structure. Sloppy. A beginners feel at best.

BTW, I have a 28 inch thigh so your neck would have to be the size of a horse. I'm 5'8" and I look a darn site better than you.

The only thing you would "own" is a bus pass home.
I love it how some amatuer guy that fights in these little amatuer matches with guys from "around the block" think they are the shiznit. I don't really care what you think my skills are or my intent. I'd like you to point out where I said I am "too deadly" or "great"as you say. I call them as I see them. I see you as some guy that is too high on himself, that is convinced that he is in the ultimate circle of truth. And, that all other things don't match up to your supposed "greatness".

Why don't you go and tell David Ross his kung fu won't work?

"Aliveness = training against a fully resisting, unscripted opponent."

Thanks for the new fancy word. We used to call this sparring.

Fool. You don't know jack and it shows.

[Merryprankster]

Actually Abel, I found him rather skilled. Hardly a beginner. Perhaps a bit out of fighting trim, but he moves more like a 170 lbs fighter than his current weight. Much more lightly than I expected.

[SifuAbel]

"The majority of kungfu guys know that they aren't the best fighters and that there are better ways but they just like the chinese culture, weapons etc and are perfectly happy."

Really!?!?!? :rolleyes:

You are are doing san shou, what the heck are you pretending to be if not a kung fu man? :confused:

WHAT..........A.............LOAD!!!!!!!!!!

[yenhoi]

"I see you as some guy that is too high on himself, that is convinced that he is in the ultimate circle of truth. And, that all other things don't match up to your supposed "greatness". "

Pot, leave kettle alone.

[SifuAbel]

Did you spar him?

[Merryprankster]

Yes. Although I admit we didn't pound on each other, we did do a fair bit of stand-up grappling. His understanding of body mechanics is quite sound, and his movements, as I said, were far faster and his footwork lighter than I expected from somebody his build. I would imagine that his striking game is similar. Good footwork doesn't suddenly disappear.

We've committed to pounding on each other a bit next time. Unfortunately, that may be awhile. I've got some important tournaments (at least to me) coming up and need to focus my attention on those.

[SifuAbel]

Yen,

Where on this thread did I say san shou or Jow gar doesn't work or make claims that I would wipe the floor with anyone.
I have NEVER claimed that other styles are inferior. In all the times I been on this freaking board I have been on the receiving end of a lot of flack because I am trying to fight the utter ignorance that runs wild here regarding TMA. I am responding to yet another freaking observer talking smack about what he doesn't know about. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Stop assuming and READ.

Do you agree with this? : "kungfu = a way to die."

It is STILL self serving Ka Ka.

[ShaolinTiger00]

with guys from "around the block" think they are the shiznit.

3 National Sanshou Competitions and 2 US Opens. around the block - more like across the country.

"talk" about balance and form from a snapshot fragment of a second from a motion. - :rolleyes:

I'm 5'8" and I look a darn site better than you.
Again refering back to appearance in a desperate attempt that that somehow makes you skilled. It doesn't. You can never judge a fighter by how he looks, but of course if you had ever experienced full contact competition on a national level, you'd know that.



You don't know jack and it shows.

Point out where I've been wrong. monkey boy

I've studied CMA for over 10 years. my teachers are well respected and legit and my opinion is just that. mine. you don't like it. who cares? but to say that I'm a nobody, or "don't understand kungfu" etc. is just False.

Argue the debate, don't throw a tantrum and insult me. I've been called much worse by better people.

[SifuAbel]

"I would imagine"

[Merryprankster]

While I don't have your 21 years in, I've been around the block enough, with enough good fighters and good competition to understand what I'm feeling from others when I feel it.

ST has real skills. Choose to disregard my opinion if you like, but the man knows what he's doing. You may too. But to dismiss him as a beginner just because you are both in a ****ing contest with each other is simply not accurate.

[yenhoi]

SifuAbel:

I assumed nothing, I didnt even read your entire post(s). I was just chiming in to show that yenhoi thinks your acting pretty silly right now.

Who cares? Not me.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

second the motion. whatever you might think of his debate style, rest assured that ST knows what he's doing. (based on my recent experiences being tossed around the ring by said 'beginner.')


stuart b.

[ShaolinTiger00]

MP & Apoweyn- thanks for your opinion of my performance. You both are highly skilled and very capable. mutual respect!

maybe I'm in the pi$$ing contest now, but only because personal insults were thrown my way. I respect anyone's right to express their opinion, but if you've got something to say about me, I'm going to respond.


Abel - let's agree to disagree and save bandwidth.

[SifuAbel]

What level?

Us open? please thats a joke.

Are you kidding?

So you fought 5 whole times. wow. I been to many of these so called "nationals" don't make me laugh. You make it sound you fought Cung le or something.

Natioanls, ha! More times than not its the same guys from the last tourney.

Here's my first and ONLY real boast; When you first started san shou ('94) I was training an entire team that won ALL the blackbelt continous sparring at the Lee koon hung. Thats an INTERNATIONAL tournament. I won the instructor level northern form against 34 competitors. I had brendan lai as a head judge. We have been fighting with contact this way in our school since my teacher's teacher's time in 1975. Don't lecture me on what good form is supposed to look like. I can tell right away when somebody has poor body language and a zhitty gaurd.

There, now you can actually say that i said something to my credit. Happy?

[apoweyn]

these threads would probably be much shorter (albeit far more disturbing) if everyone could just measure everyone else's todger and then go home.

:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

"could just measure everyone else's todger and then go home"

I WIN!!!


geeze sifuabel, it sounds like you are on teh loosing side of this argument, whether you agree on what ST00 is saying he does have people here speaking up for his skill.

[ShaolinTiger00]

So you fought 5 whole times. 5 times on that level. Training partners for Aaron Hunnicut (bronze medal winner of world sanshou) and Dan Garrett (Fought pro match vs. Cung Le.
scores of smoker matches, dozens of "continuous sparring" matches, local judo competitions and wrestling thru my college years.

I am a giant sissy.


I was training an entire team that won ALL the blackbelt continous sparring at the Lee koon hung. Thats an INTERNATIONAL tournament.

-the irony of you mocking my national tournament then promoting your "international" tourney. international = tournament buzzword, so this point is mute. and you were training - ie. - you didn't fight at said event.

I won the instructor level northern form against 34 competitors. I had brendan lai as a head judge.

-What does this speak about fighting ability? Tells me you probably didn't spend enough time fighting..

We have been fighting with contact this way in our school since my teacher's teacher's time in 1975. Don't lecture me on what good form is supposed to look like.

Of course you do. Your the only "real" kungfu school in town. but where are you now? where are your full contact fighters today?

I can tell right away when somebody has poor body language and a zhitty gaurd.

- You have 0 credibility, and to judge me on a photograph is only a reflection of this.

There, now you can actually say that i said something to my credit. Happy?

I'm always Happy. Nice job, young son, hot wife. Life is great. How are you?
:)

[yenhoi]

todger?!

what kinda backwards aussie word is this?

This thread isent long enough to take my measurement yet, ap.

:eek:

[SifuAbel]

"Argue the debate, don't throw a tantrum and insult me."

Excuse me , This is the entirety of your arguement.


"kungfu = a way to die."

You have no arguement, its still self serving drivel.

in which you responded with abel- azz scratching baboon. This is your point?

As to the actual thread it was pretty fair. Even when merry points out his dislikes.

I think you wasted ten years of your teachers time. And you think your teachers kung fu is BS too?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
todger?!

what kinda backwards aussie word is this?

This thread isent long enough to take my measurement yet, ap.

:eek:

LOL

[fa_jing]

I still think my study of Wing Chun will forever provide a framework for my fighting style, no matter how I tweak it. When I put on the gloves and deflect with my inner forearm, I'm still thinking "fook sao." If I hook his hand down with my glove I'm thinking "jut sao." etc. etc. etc. The footwork and kicking mechanics are based on the original. I like all this and I find it useful.

Even our throws are set up by Wing Chun striking, although most come from outside the system. I have been blessed with a Sifu that is able to correctly integrate older and more modern training and technique. Someone who does not disregard either approach. Someone who understands the problems of Kung Fu and has trained traditionally, who has boxed, who is a student of Ted Wong (JKD)

Why do I continue to practice my forms? Sil lum tao for deep, meditative muscle and connective tissue relaxation, as well as training of my structure to be automatic and correct. Chum Kil for fighting ideas, practice kicking and moving structure.

I realize I wouldn't be anywhere without the use of equipment for training. If I didn't have a heavy bag I'd have to make one out of Chinese herbs (j/k) They say that Yip Man and his training partners back in Fatshan used to sew straw into their clothing for padding and go full contact.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"Argue the debate, don't throw a tantrum and insult me."

Excuse me , This is the entirety of your arguement.

Incorrect, untrue.

This was my post, in which I was responding to a comment made my a kf'er:

We who practice Kung Fu, are looking for a better way to fight. Now, simple techniques work the best, but most of us are familiar with the jab, cross, uppercut, hook.

How did you get "familiar" with them? kungfu? LMAO. ninja please...

kungfu = a way to die.

Aside from my scorn about a traditional guy's "knowledge" of my simple techniques.. the last statement was an obvious mockery of the thread title.

[fa_jing]

Yeah ST00 but you're assuming that we are all average TMA's with our heads stuck in the ground. It didn't occur to you that most of us here are more inquisitive and open-minded than the average student. It may not have occured to you that some of us go to schools where the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut are not hidden and forbidden from the students. Like I said before, I am qualified to know whether I want to go in a certain direction for training a technique or not.

At the same time, I went to a Wing Chun seminar once and although the presentor was highly qualified and skilled, his students did not reflect the same ability and I left feeling that I could have "Taken" any one of them without much trouble, even the instructors. So I know where you are coming from. But not all schools are like that. There are about 5 schools here in Chicago that are really good. I'm sure that there are 20 bad ones and I've seen some of these.

[fa_jing]

sorry one more thing - you call me "traditional" but the "traditional" guys won't have me, they say I train JKD and not Wing Chun. I know better than to take this crap to heart from either camp

[ShaolinTiger00]

sorry fa-jing. jkd = just as bad as traditional guys. Read first post of "aliveness" thread. ;)

[Braden]

fa_jing: ****ing off both the traditionalists and the modernists is a clear sign you're doing something right. :D

[fa_jing]

Sorry ST00 - I don't even like JKD, the term, most of the writing, or the Jun Fan sytem. I just train in an integrated system. Bruce Lee did not take out a patent on hitting a bag or being open-minded. :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Braden
fa_jing: ****ing off both the traditionalists and the modernists is a clear sign you're doing something right. :D

amen

[SifuAbel]

yes, kung fu.

If you think its a better way to die then why do you do it? Was your kung fu so bad? Was your teacher that zhitty that he couldn't teach you to fight? Then I feel sorry for you. the way you speak of CMA shows you had a bad experience, too bad for you. Don't drag us all down with you.

trained with? thats like taking a picture with your favorite celebrity, its still not you. Doesn't mean you are on their level. You weren't on the way to a belt or anything.

i'm not going to fight my own people . Who the heck do you think sparred them to get them up to speed? Me. Are telling me you don't fight FC outside of tourney? and ony five times? scores? dozens? those are not big numbers.

which is "that " level? You fought in the advanced divisions? Did you even place?

0 credebility to you maybe, that don't mean squat to me. that s just a redirect. Your credibilty with me falls into the negative.

National=catch word for small regional really.

I only need a moment to see you. the ways you knees are turned , the way you lean, where your hands are. your opponent was terrible. his mistakes go even further.

Musashi was honest enough to wonder whether his victories were the result of him being so good or them being so bad. He honestly couldn't say.

[fa_jing]

I thought ST00's photos looked entirely normal. Fighting isn't always pretty.

[SifuAbel]

sorry, im used to seeing fighters with better form, like cung le. That guy doesn't take bad pictures.

[SifuAbel]

BTW the discipline of the gaurd is everything. Flailing the hands out is a no no.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Was your kung fu so bad? Was your teacher that zhitty that he couldn't teach you to fight? Then I feel sorry for you. the way you speak of CMA shows you had a bad experience, too bad for you. Don't drag us all down with you.

On the contrary my CMA experience has been amazing. I've done southern, northern, weapons, internal, sanshou - I've done it all. but the reality of it is that there aren't enough Hoy Lee's or Mike Barry's or Jason Yee's or David Ross's in this country to preserve the intergrity of the CMA. I want to bring CMA up to a respectable level and sanshou is where it must start. If you can't fight (win/loss - doesn't really matter on any given day) under those circumstances, how are you going to apply more "advanced" techniques?

National=catch word for small regional really.
San Jose, San Fran, Boston, Texas, Florida, Maryland, Illinois & many more . small tourney - It was the only tournament acknowledged by the IWUF that could sent competitiors to world trials. and I placed in the top 4 at all 5 of those events. Many were usually two days of fighting.

Musashi is good company to be in for a sissy like me.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Where are the pictures of you fighting at full contact events where we can judge your form?

[yenhoi]

he does international instructor level forms competitions, not full contact fighting, st00.

Pretty funny how he talks about credibility too.

too much fun!

[SevenStar]

Can't we all just get along? :confused:

[SifuAbel]

No, we can't get along.

His kung fu is amazing yet all kung fu is bull****. It reaks. :rolleyes: And he's done all this form work too, nothern southern, internal for ten years straight? No.


Yen > At that tournament, Ok.

thanks for being such a pal. make sure to wipe the brown from your mouth.

top 4 LOL! = 4th in most.

[ShaolinTiger00]

His kung fu is amazing yet all kung fu is bull****. It reaks. And he's done all this form work too, nothern southern, internal for ten years straight? No.

Never said I was amazing. kungfu without full contact fighting is bull****.and I stopped doing form work about 8 years into trainingas I was already spending 90% of the time training for sanshou. did internal qigong excercises until the day I moved away from sifu. :)

LOL @ calling yenhoi an asskisser because he disagrees with you. Your ego is an eggshell. Knifefighter had you pegged.

Waiting for the pictures....

[red5angel]

"Can't we all just get along?"

**** you 7*

[SifuAbel]

yes it is, sparring is important. but by your stance only YOU do so. And thats bullsheet.

as far yen is concerned, he's being a thorn for nothing. A lot more people are disageeing with you than me, buddy.

I don't have a photographer hanging around me every second in every event or match.

But here is a rescent pic of me. I have nothing to hide.

Me (http://home.earthlink.net/~drhchan/Heigung2.jpg)

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by red5angel
"Can't we all just get along?"

**** you 7*

Yeah, this isn't real life where we'd probably look past our differences. This is the internet, where conflict means entertainment for all involved. ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
yes it is, sparring is important. but by your stance only YOU do so. And thats bullsheet.

as far yen is concerned, he's being a thorn for nothing. A lot more people are disageeing with you than me, buddy.

I don't have a photographer hanging around me every second in every event or match.

But here is a rescent pic of me. I have nothing to hide.

Me (http://home.earthlink.net/~drhchan/Heigung2.jpg)

Looking a bit chubby there, Abel.

[Serpent]

What page of this thread are ST00's pics on? I just had a skim through but couldn't find them.

[fa_jing]

Abel looks like he has a good build for Kung Fu.

William's pics are on the site listed in his profile.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by fa_jing
William's pics are on the site listed in his profile.

Thanks. I'll check them out.

[SifuAbel]

its a breathing set!!!

I was inhaling. :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
its a breathing set!!!

I was inhaling. :D

LOL!

OK, I'll let you get away with that one. Thousands wouldn't! ;)

[SifuAbel]

but its true!!!

That came from a breathing set . I was taking those pictures to show the breathing set.

:D :p :D

[Knifefighter]

No offense, Sifu Abel, but based on all your physical descriptions of yourself, I was a bit disappointed. I have to say I expected a ripped monster based on the way you described yourself in all your posts in the past.

Not that physique is necessarily a measure of your ability as a fighter. I am the first to admit that a person's physique is not always an indication of their fighting ability.

BTW, when did Shaolin Tiger come over to the Dark Side?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
No offense, Sifu Abel, but based on all your physical descriptions of yourself, I was a bit disappointed. I have to say I expected a ripped monster based on the way you described yourself in all your posts in the past.

Not that physique is necessarily a measure of your ability as a fighter. I am the first to admit that a person's physique is not always an indication of their fighting ability.

BTW, when did Shaolin Tiger come over to the Dark Side?

ST00 has been corrupted by forces unknown. He's lost to us now.

As for Abel, I thought he looked bigger than I expected. He was kinda skinny looking in that infamous horse stance photo.

Abel; what breathing set is that? Does it have a history?

[Royal Dragon]

It looks like the 5th posture of the Tai tzu Qi Gong set "Kuang Yun Chuang" to me.

[SifuAbel]

My arms aren't exactly mr. olympias but they're not weak looking. I got some definition. Maybe I should pump the diarhetics like the weight lifters do. That ripps them up good. Outward appearance is also not an exact measure of strength either.

I'm 5'8" 205. I got 8 to 10 more go before I'm at those dangerously low bruce lee fat levels.

You're like 5'4" 115 ? Am i right?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
I'm 5'8" 205. I got 8 to 10 more go before I'm at those dangerously low bruce lee fat levels.

You're like 5'4" 115 ? Am i right?


Meee-ooowwww!

Saucer of milk for SifuAbel, please!

[SifuAbel]

That horse stance photo was 12 years ago, I weighed a slight 165.

That breathing set is a short tension set. We simply call it Hei Gung.

[joedoe]

Abel - you and I have similar stats. I am about 5'10" and about 210-215 (haven't weighed myself lately).

I always pictured you as more lightly built. Oh well :)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
That horse stance photo was 12 years ago, I weighed a slight 165.

That breathing set is a short tension set. We simply call it Hei Gung.

That explains it!

Hei gung is just Cantonese for QiGong. It's a dynamic, hard qigong set, is it?

[SifuAbel]

serpent,

Am I being catty? LOL!

Joe thats because of my old pictures.

[Knifefighter]

As I said, physique is not necessarily an indicator of a person's figthing ability. That being said, having been in the strength/conditioning business for 20 years now, I am a pretty good judge of a person's fitness level by looking at them. My guess is you have good strength, but your cardio is pretty suspect.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
As I said, physique is not necessarily an indicator of a person's figthing ability. That being said, having been in the strength/conditioning business for 20 years now, I am a pretty good judge of a person's fitness level by looking at them. My guess is you have good strength, but your cardio is pretty suspect.

Do youpractice any kind of qigong, KF?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
As I said, physique is not necessarily an indicator of a person's figthing ability. That being said, having been in the strength/conditioning business for 20 years now, I am a pretty good judge of a person's fitness level by looking at them. My guess is you have good strength, but your cardio is pretty suspect.

I know you were talking to SifuAbel, but that pretty much pegs me too :)

[Royal Dragon]

I have never seen Kuang Yun Chuang done dynamically. Hold that posture relaxed, like a Taiji, and sink the Chi and that's the posture I'm talking about.

Is that the posture from Jap Siao Ma Keun right after the kick near the end?

[SifuAbel]

Yes that particular set is hard dynamic moves.

Well, I'm not exactly a marathon runner. But I do teach a cardio Kickboxing class twice a week with me leading the class. and I do an hour of quick cycle weight training before the class. On the other days I do my own personal training. But I will give props to your powers of observation, I was recovering from a bronchial infection during this picture.

[Knifefighter]

Do youpractice any kind of qigong, KF?

No.

You're like 5'4" 115 ? Am i right?

You talking to me?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Do youpractice any kind of qigong, KF?

No.

Thought not. For anyone that practices qigong methods regularly, they can be in great shape yet their body doesn't look like a regular runner or cyclist, etc.

Still, see what Abel said. Sounds like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

;)

[SifuAbel]

yes, that too. in actuality we just use a flat palm for the set, i was just adding some flava' .

[Royal Dragon]

I wonder if you are doing a "Southernised" version of the same set then.

Mine has 6 horse stances. Starting high, then low, then high etc...

Each has a different hand posture, the one you pictured is the 5th., only done with the flat palm.

[SifuAbel]

Yes KF I was asking you. friendly question.

[Knifefighter]

Thought not. For anyone that practices qigong methods regularly, they can be in great shape yet their body doesn't look like a regular runner or cyclist, etc.
==================================================

Could be true, but my thinking is, if you are going to train for conditioning, why not spend your time using methods that will get you in great shape AND get you ripped at the same time?

Abel, I'd say I'm a bit bigger than that, although I'm definitely not a monster. Not to brag too much, but I doubt you'd want to compare physiques with me.

[SifuAbel]

that set is done stationary in a low horse. We do it in 8 combinations down , forward, side, up , alternate left up right down then the reverse , push down toward the middle fingers out palm heels touching thenout to the sides using a horzontal palm.

We use that set with various fist, palm, and fu jow positions.

[Xebsball]

cos the internal stuff is most awesome

[SifuAbel]

yeah, i'm not that skinny. ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Could be true, but my thinking is, if you are going to train for conditioning, why not spend your time using methods that will get you in great shape AND get you ripped at the same time?


Why bother getting ripped? What purpose, other than vanity, does it serve?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Xebsball
cos the internal stuff is most awesome

Oh yes it is.

:)

[SifuAbel]

so you're 5'6 135?

[Braden]

Internal is not for getting CV conditioning and muscle conditioning! No, no, no. Bad monkey.

If you want to rock the CV casbah, get your ass skipping! If you want strong ass legs, get your silly ass squatting!

If you wanna relax, learn to breath, and learn structure then internal gonna do you good.

[SifuAbel]

braden

were actually tandem talking here. The Cv and the qi gung are two separate threads in one.

we're just talking about the specifics of my picture.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
Internal is not for getting CV conditioning and muscle conditioning! No, no, no. Bad monkey.

If you want to rock the CV casbah, get your ass skipping! If you want strong ass legs, get your silly ass squatting!

If you wanna relax, learn to breath, and learn structure then internal gonna do you good.

That's partly true, though not completely.

However, that wasn't my point. My point was that regular qigong practice can alter your body shape slightly, making your CV abilities less obvious.

[Braden]

I'm taking to posting my comments to one thread on another... you know, to keep people on their toes.

[Royal Dragon]

Very interesting. From the way you describe it, it's kinda like our Five Elements Qi Gong mixed a we bit of Kuang Yun Chuang all rolled into one plus more, only done with dynamic tension.

alternate left up right down then the reverse

This for example is the "Water" element.

It's interesting to see how the different branches of this stuff all roll together.

I have found this type of practice seems to make me more resistant to hard impacts, where as the softer versions that are more Taiji like seem to improve my rooting and stability more. The exercises are the same on the outside, it's the difference in the way they are performed that changes the results.

[Knifefighter]

Why bother getting ripped? What purpose, other than vanity, does it serve?
=================================================

If you are going to get in shape, why not get ripped at the same time? If I'm going to spend my time doing something, I'd like to get as much benefit from it as possible.


Abel, if you are really that curious, I'm probably somewhere around 5'6"/5'7 150-160.

[SifuAbel]

With me it doesn't matter. I have cuban genes that keeps my skin thick no matter what i do. I'll never be vein showing skinny. I sooooooooo mesomorphic. Blame my mama. Not unless I do something chemical or drastic. Heck, i wish i could do that. I'd look like abelzilla right now.

[SifuAbel]

ok your 5'6" .5 and 155 . Cool, that was all.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL @ Abelzilla!!!!!

[Xebsball]

will you compare genital dimenssions now?

[Royal Dragon]

8" stone cold, and it gets bigger from there :eek:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
If you are going to get in shape, why not get ripped at the same time? If I'm going to spend my time doing something, I'd like to get as much benefit from it as possible.


WTF!? You're assuming that being ripped is a benefit to ...what?

It's pure vanity and serves no purpose whatsoever! Don't you see what I'm saying?

[Braden]

There's nothing wrong with doing things for a certain appearance; everyone does it. Vanity is an unhealthy obsession with it.

On the other hand, not every man wants to be "ripped." I certainly don't.

[Royal Dragon]

Say excuse me.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
There's nothing wrong with doing things for a certain appearance; everyone does it. Vanity is an unhealthy obsession with it.

On the other hand, not every man wants to be "ripped." I certainly don't.

That's exactly my point, except KF is touting it as a benefit as if it's as good a benefit as CV fitness.

[Knifefighter]

That's exactly my point, except KF is touting it as a benefit as if it's as good a benefit as CV fitness.
=================================================

I think you might have missed my point, which was: If you are going to train for CV fitness, why not get ripped at the same time?


"Ripped" = muscular development + low body fat.

Muscular development = high correlation with increased strength levels, higher bone density, increased athletic performance, and decreased injury rates.

Low body fat = decreased chance of heart disease and strokes; high correlation with cardiovascular fitness and endurance.

These are all good reasons for me.

[Braden]

Plus it gets you chicks.

Won't someone please think of the chicks!? :(

[Xebsball]

Qigong -> awesome chi flow and superior virility (dude, check out the man pulling a truck with his thang, lol)

[Royal Dragon]

But the body needs a certian amount of fat, when your ripped, you are often under that minimum. Also, alot of guy purposely dehydrate to get that extra bit of rip, especially pro body builders right before a competition. That's bad too, all in the name of being "Ripped'.

I seem to remeber reading that being a little bit over, is better than being a little bit under, from a health stand point anyway.

Personally, I think being ripped is over rated, so long as you don't have any "Pudge" the girls still throw themselves at you.

[Knifefighter]

It depends on how you are achieving it. Bodybuilding methods are notorious for compromising health. A sound conditioning program will get you ripped while improving your overall health profile.

[Braden]

Xebs - the secret to that method is getting lots of different people to pull on it firmly, as often as possible. With time and hard work, it will build up strength. Some day, the truck may be within grasp. But not before countless years of hard work in clubs and university libraries.

[Xebsball]

libraries :D yes indeed!

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
That's exactly my point, except KF is touting it as a benefit as if it's as good a benefit as CV fitness.
=================================================

I think you might have missed my point, which was: If you are going to train for CV fitness, why not get ripped at the same time?


"Ripped" = muscular development + low body fat.

Muscular development = high correlation with increased strength levels, higher bone density, increased athletic performance, and decreased injury rates.

Low body fat = decreased chance of heart disease and strokes; high correlation with cardiovascular fitness and endurance.

These are all good reasons for me.

Training for good CV and being ripped are not mutually necessary. A person can have a healthy, low bodyfat and still not be ripped. Reducing bodyfat levels to that required for rippedness is often quite excessive.

If it's your thing to look that way, then fine. However, being ripped is not necessary to good CV, it's no better than a regular low body fat against things like heart disease and is really a purely vain exercise.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
Plus it gets you chicks.

Won't someone please think of the chicks!? :(

LOL.

:D

[Braden]

"If you are going to train for CV fitness, why not get ripped at the same time?"

Cause I'm too **** scrawny! Let's get back to comparing genital sizes... my ego needs something I can win at. :D

[Braden]

What was your objection to my comments on qigong, Serpent?

That relaxation and breathing can greatly improve your CV, and that posture can greatly improve your functional strength?

[Knifefighter]

You are right. Being ripped does not ensure CV benefits. That is why I noted there is a correlation rather than a direct cause/effect relationship.

However, let's say you had to choose between two conditioning programs. Both develop your CV to exactly the same levels, both improve your health profile to the same extent, and both require the same amount of training time. With the first one, you look exactly the same. With the second one, you get the same benefit, but end up with a ripped musculature. Which one would you choose?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
You are right. Being ripped does not ensure CV benefits. That is why I noted there is a correlation rather than a direct cause/effect relationship.

However, let's say you had to choose between two conditioning programs. Both develop your CV to exactly the same levels, both improve your health profile to the same extent, and both require the same amount of training time. With the first one, you look exactly the same. With the second one, you get the same benefit, but end up with a ripped musculature. Which one would you choose?

Although that's relatively unrealistic, I would probably go with the no-ripped one, purely because I'm not keen on myself being totally ripped.

I'm happier somewhere in the middle, where my muscle is defined to a certain degree, yet smooth. As I'm quite a hard-gainer, this is where I kinda naturally fall.

Courses for horses. I just wanted you to admit that being ripped and not being ripped have no further bearing on your health. Your definition of the two programs says exactly that, in effect.

[Xebsball]

KF, one can still do excercises/diet to be ripped and pratice qigong too, if one has the time of course that is.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
What was your objection to my comments on qigong, Serpent?

That relaxation and breathing can greatly improve your CV, and that posture can greatly improve your functional strength?

Not sure what you're asking here.

You said that qigong should not be used for CV. I said that I agree with that, but doing qigong can alter your body shape from that of, say, a marathon runner that does no qigong.

I completely concur with your second sentence there.

[SifuAbel]

You got a great shape to you. But I must say your arms a bit skinny. More wirey than big.


Knifefighters pic (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/triangle.jpg)

[Braden]

Ah... you said "That's partly true, though not completely." I thought you had a disagreement other than that.

[Braden]

Knifefighter's blue circle is totally smaller than his green circle! What a joker!

[yenhoi]

what a wonderful thread!

:eek:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
Ah... you said "That's partly true, though not completely." I thought you had a disagreement other than that.

Oh right. Sorry about that.

(Dayum, you gotta be careful how you speak around Braden, huh!)

[Royal Dragon]

How late were you guys up last night?

I logged on this morning, and had like 20 E-mails from this conversation alone!!!!!