View Full Version : Self defense training
My training partner and I went over some scenario drills tonight and gun defenses. Just wanted to post about it just for the material's sake.
We sparred some full resistence gun defenses with a sleek metal berreta replica that dry fires (doesn't discharge anything though) But the weight and feel is nearly exactly like a real gun.
Going through some scenario drills, we would try to talk the other one out of "shooting" while using some strategic hand positioning (i.e. up in a nonthreatening manner) then snatch the barrel of the gun away from our body and "spar" it away from the other.
Some points....
1.) Damm this gets the adrenaline going... just the look of the replica gun trying to be pointed at you is scary.
2.) While the other had one gloved hand to punch the other as we struggled with the "gun" we found a lot of times both of us focused solely on trying to keep the gun out of the other's control.
3. Getting punched in the head while trying to wrestle a gun from someone's hand is no fun, but you don't really feel it so much when the adrenaline dump is happening.
4. Sometimes we would end up kneeling on the ground trying to keep the gun pointed away from us.
5. Using headbutts while having control of the gun hand is sometimes effective.
6. The gun "fires" into the ground, around our feet, off to the side.. (i.e. in a crowded place you could accidently kill someone else)
7. The gun is sharp. The metal cut my fingers at some points and made them bleed. And sticking your thumb between the hammer and the pin is effective, but can be painful.
We also practiced sucker punch defense skills, and some clinching tactics. My partner has a kung fu background, and he throws some freaking strange angled punches! :mad: I have to be careful not to mess up and clinch INTO one of them....
1. A good clinch can suffocate most punches.
2. hard strikes to the back and spine while being clinched will not stop the fight.....(but that doesn't mean they don't hurt! OUCH! LOL ;) )
All in all a good training session. Lots of reality today, and some really great "eye opening" experience with that gun.
(note that I'm not advocating defending against guns. A pro will simply stay away from you, order you on your knees, and have you throw your wallet to him. Second note. If someone wants your wallet and has a gun, just give it to him.)
3rd note. If none of you have ever "sparred" full resistence against someone toting a "gun" you can't possibly know how adrenalized and hard it is. Talk about tunnel vision.
Want to reinerate that we're NOT using real guns. Just a replica that does not discharge. It looks, feels, weighs, and dry fires just like the real thing. I personally think it adds realism. Using pink plastic guns with flowers on them is not the same thing. ;)
Ryu
Good post Ryu :)
I havent done much GOOD gun defence, i learnt a little in TKD but it was foolish to say the best of it.
Most of the stuff ive seen around the traps which looked effective is practiced by law inforcement. I hate to be frank but the traditional systems simply didnt really have guns and as such defending against them using knife defences or stick defences is a bad reflex to have.
Krav Maga actualy has some good gun defences and i like the general philosophy behind what i saw. Which was basicaly grab the gun over the top of the barrel near the wrist and simply punch cleanly strait towards the face. This will at least offset and supprise them giveing you enough time to follow up.
Another thing they stress is to move out of the line of fire FIRST.
Otherwise chances are you will get shot anyway.
Still i would not like to defend against a real gun weilding attacker and if i had to i would DEFINATELY try to distract before i moved. Even if it was only coughing or pretending to phyc out.
Still when all else fails - heck im a KF guy. I can always switch to matrix mode and simply dodge the bullets:p
you should try it with a bb gun although there usually not as heavy the extra fear of actually being hit by somehing even if it is only a plastic bb changes your methods quite a bit.
Royal Dragon
05-01-2002, 05:15 AM
Ours shoots little Yellow Beebe's
Terri had a road rage incedent reacently on the way home from practice. Some guy cut her off, so she slammed on the brakes to avoid the accident, and the car behind her got angry, and agressive. He was driving a construction truck, and stared yelling at her and throwing coins at her car. She got scared, and thought pulling the realistic looking 9mm out of her bag might help to difuse the situation.
Apparently our hero turned white, and jumped across three lanes, cutting off another car and almost caused an accidnet to turn off and escape once he saw it.
I LOVE morons like that, they are so entertaining:D
Seriously though, the guy could have been and probualy was a psyco. He probually hunted down and raped the last woman he thought he had an advantage over.
Scarry part, If it had been real, Terri would have shot him. The last guy that got violent with her got stabbed.
Royal Dragon
05-01-2002, 05:19 AM
didn't mean to Hijack the thread.
My original point, is she uses a realistic gun in weight and appearance that fires something that really stings if you get hit with it. It adds realisum to the training session as you know some sharp and sudden pain is comming if you mess up. I sugjest you wear eye protection when doing this though.
scotty1
05-01-2002, 06:30 AM
"If someone wants your wallet and has a gun, just give it to him."
In what situation would you use the techniques you detailed in your post?
Maybe when there's nothing to lose, ie. the guy/girl is going to shoot you whatever you do.
:D
FatherDog
05-01-2002, 08:04 AM
Cool stuff, Ryu. You seem to do some really good training, from what I've seen of your posts.
1. A good clinch can suffocate most punches.
What sorts of things did you find made it difficult to maintain a clinch? ie, which things did you or your partner do that allowed you to create striking space that the other had a hard time countering?
Want to reinerate that we're NOT using real guns. Just a replica that does not discharge. It looks, feels, weighs, and dry fires just like the real thing. I personally think it adds realism. Using pink plastic guns with flowers on them is not the same thing. ;)
That's probably true, but it should be noted that in many states, it's illegal to have a replica that looks too realistic. If you carry a replica in Virginia, for example, cops are entitled to treat you as if you're carrying the real thing. There's been lawsuits over cops shooting people who were carrying realistic-looking waterguns where the cops side of things was held up in court... just a heads up.
Merryprankster
05-01-2002, 08:20 AM
2. hard strikes to the back and spine while being clinched will not stop the fight.....(but that doesn't mean they don't hurt! OUCH! LOL )
True. I still have a bruise on my lower spine from heel kicks from my MMA fight. But it sure doesn't stop you! Just annoying.
And clinches DO suffocate most strikes! :)
Oh Yeah--define "funny angles..."
I'm not sure how to describe it...
I mean it's obviously the same lines you'll find in boxing, (straight line, hooking line, downward, upward, etc.)
Just that his strikes are not necessarily a "boxing structure" and will sometimes appear to come in straight, but suddenly hook downward or something while setting up for a rear hook, etc.
That probably didn't help. :D
My partner has some sting and power in his "kung fu" strikes. They're not fancy "no power" hits. Apparently he used to hang with some Asian gangs in LA for a time... so he has some experience using his stuff for real. Of course we both have boxing structure. He's really into BJJ and MMA now though :D
Ryu
scotty1
05-01-2002, 08:41 AM
Ryu....
Can you answer my question please? :D
sorry scotty :D
Yeah basically just like you said. If the guy is going to kill you anyway, and you have nothing to lose. The scary thing is... you don't know sometimes if he's gonna kill you or not.
Some guys will take your wallet and still shoot you.
My training partner told me some pretty scary stories from his own experiences in bad parts of LA when it came to people just coming up and killing people after an argument, etc.
The guy will just walk away, gain distance, and then just turn around and pull out a gun you didn't know he had, and fire.
Nothing you can do. :(
Ryu
Badger
05-01-2002, 08:56 AM
You ever check out these practice guns??
airsoft (http://alliancemartialarts.com/airsoft.html)
Badger
Merryprankster
05-01-2002, 09:03 AM
I gotcha.
Kinda like a pivot jab where you think it's going to miss over your shoulder and winds up whacking you in the face as the guy throwing it pivots.
rogue
05-01-2002, 09:39 AM
Ryu,
Get your hands on the Randy Warner & Bob Taylor tape "Unarmed and Dangerous" from www.trsdirect.com. They go over some excellent points using simunition. Warner shows a bad clear and gets a piece of his ear blown off.
My practice gun is an old 22 cal pellet gun revolver, nice and heavy. Great for dry firing and without a cartdrige pretty safe. Any of you guys get your finger caught in the trigger guard during disarms? Feels real good.
:eek:
BrentCarey
05-06-2002, 01:15 PM
A few interesting things about guns and knives:
1) When the attacker is threatening you with a weapon, he actually has certain restraint mechanisms in place to prevent him from accidentally using it.
2) The attacker is just as afraid of the weapon as the defender. That is, the attacker fears the damage it can do.
3) The combination of the above two factors means that the attacker will resist any attempt by the defender to redirect the weapon in any direction.
4) So, once the weapon hand is seized, the attacker will tend to hold it statically in space, and maneuver around it.
5) So, any contest for the weapon will tend to focus on trying to keep the weapon pointed away from oneself and/or toward the opponent.
6) Every weapon has a minimum and maximum range. The minimum range is more useful in close-quarters combat. For example, a gun held on an outstretched arm is useless against a target that is standing chest-to-chest with you. The natural reaction is to move away from an attacker with a weapon, when in fact it is usually more advantageous to move closer.
7) You don't have to get the weapon away from an armed attacker to defeat him. It is extremely difficult to disarm someone. All you have to do is prevent him from using it on you while you defeat him otherwise.
8) Guns and knives tie up at least one hand of the attacker at all times.
9) An empty gun is pretty much useless. If you can trap the gun arm and discharge every round into the ground, your problems are half over. If you are familiar with guns, you can also drop the magazine, then discharge the chambered round into the ground.
Peace,
- B. A. Carey
Black Jack
05-06-2002, 01:34 PM
Good and weird post Ryu,
Just last Saturday I was with a bud of mine at the Hock Hochheim seminar doing different pistol and long gun disarms, small world:D
Ryu, which shooting grip was your partner using, one handed or two handed? Each can lead to a different tactical feel to the disarm.
We were grappling and fighting each other for our mock Colt .45 1911, using the basic WWII army off line/grab the gun with both hands and twist it clockwise back towards the attacker method, with the trigger finger trapped in the trigger guard you could then use that leverage to take the shooter down to the ground, disarm and finish him off, when your finger really gets caught in their it is PAINFULL, and can lead to a broken finger if you are not carefull, that pain though can be used to your advantage, to bring the guy down.
The disarm becomes very tense when the other is kicking, fighting and trying as hard as you are to keep his gun and kill you.
We did a few civilan, one old army, one navy and one marine method, using both one handed and two handed gun grips, to see the differences in tactics, it was very interesting, all of it using the same principles of grabbing the gun with both hands, manipulating it for the disarm while fighting for your life, we ended up on the ground a number of times.
I enjoyed it very much.
Rogue,
That tape is amazing, some say it IS they best firearm disarming tape ever made.
Julien
05-06-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by BrentCarey
A few interesting things about guns and knives:
1) When the attacker is threatening you with a weapon, he actually has certain restraint mechanisms in place to prevent him from accidentally using it.
2) The attacker is just as afraid of the weapon as the defender. That is, the attacker fears the damage it can do.
- B. A. Carey
i guess that is true but what if this person has killed another human before in the same position? (on purpose) they would most likely have less of a restraint to kill u, correct?
BrentCarey
05-07-2002, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Julien
i guess that is true but what if this person has killed another human before in the same position? (on purpose) they would most likely have less of a restraint to kill u, correct?
Well, sure. In my original post, I didn't explain myself very well. When I said that restraint mechanisms are in place when someone is "threatening" you, I do mean "threatening". That is, when the person has decided to use it, those mechanisms are shut off.
For example, the trigger finger might be tense or even off of the trigger (if the person is trained) to prevent accidental discharge. When threatening with a knife, muscles will be slightly tense to hold that knife back.
Incidentally, drugs (including alcohol) will tend to break down these mechanisms or intensify them depending on a number of factors.
No person should rely on these mechanisms, because, well they're not very reliable. You should be aware that they tend to be there though.
Peace,
- B. A. Carey
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