San Sao Sucks - or - Not in the face! Not in the face! [Archive]

Royal Dragon

05-01-2002, 04:57 AM

hitting in the teeth is vertually impssible, since I tend to move to the side so I can neutralise the one hande easier, and the other is now too far away to be much of a threat, so all my punches to the head are aimed at the side of the Jaw, Jaw hindge, Temple, or ear. If I'm trying to be gentile, I palm to the cheek bone as a "Rattler", if I want to Kill (Hasn't happned yet) I knife edge to the back of the neck.

Even if I do attack to the front, I'm STILL comming from the side, only I have snaked my arm around and beaked 'em in the throat with a Crane hand, usually accompanied by removal of the closest leg for a take down.

See, no teeth :cool:

RD

GLW

05-01-2002, 05:09 AM

Fighting is this...fighting is that....

You hit where the opening is. you make openings where you can and captialise on them. If the situation calls for a take down, that is what you do. If it goes down, you do that....

All bets are off when it starts. No one ever wins...but someone loses.

stoli

05-01-2002, 05:22 AM

Well said GLW !! Seems to me a lot of people like to discuss specific techniques when talking about reality, I think that misses the point. Too many different people out there with too many different skills to think about a particular move working on everyone.

And Royal Dragon "if I want to kill........I knife edge to the back of the neck" !!!??? ............. hmmmmm

ewallace

05-01-2002, 06:12 AM

Two points.

1. In a real situation, if I come out with only a broken hand or knuckle I would consider myself lucky.

2. It doesn't really hurt for about an hour afterwards. And if I end up with teeth in my hand, I would have to say that I wound up being on the giving end of the encounter.

Mutant

05-01-2002, 03:13 PM

MaFuYee;

Your post shows very little understanding of both san shou and street-fighting. :rolleyes:

There are many training benefits of training to fight full-contact and testing yourself in the ring or on the lei tei, that far outweigh the possible mishap of cutting your hand on someone's teeth in a streetfight, which is really quite a tangential detail anyway, assuming a person (or people) are trying to maim or kill you.

Testing yourself under the duress of competitive full contact is a good way to hone the skills that will enable you to survive a high stress street battle. Learning to control techniques under that kind of pressure and danger will enable you to land more accurate strikes and have better command of your punches when the sh!t hits the fan, not the other way around. Being able to land strikes against someone who is trying to take you out will enable you to have better accuracy in the street, not worse, therefore decreasing the chances of injuring oneself in an serious altercation. Dismissing and neglecting this sort of training from your practice for fear of developing a bad habit of punching a tooth with your knuckles is ridiculous. I'm not saying its for everyone, but san shou (or other forms of full contact/nhb training) can develop aspects of your fighting abilities by simulating certain aspects of combat in the best legal way available to us.

There are many targets of opportunity and tactics in san shou besides a sloppy punch to the face, and many san shou guys have excellent punching skills and are very accurate.....In san shou, punches to targets besides the face, kicks to the legs & body and throws are probably at least as common (if not more so) than a punch to the face anyway...

Besides, there are no guarentees in a street fight. Reread GLW's post above, I think he said it best.

05-01-2002, 03:48 PM

Great Posts

I think that the one indication of people who have actually experienced fights in the street is the present of scars on there knuckles.Without a doubt connect with knuckles to the face does result in tissue damage (and maybe broken bones) in both parties,like someone pointed out the damage is acceptable.I would much rather have the scars on the knuckles then the scars onthe face.
If one is in a fight and walks away with just this damage he's doing petty well.

MaFuYee

05-01-2002, 10:24 PM

- the tendency to PUNCH to the face.
that is fine if you are wearing gloves, but any straigh on punch can potentially leave you with teeth imbedded between your knuckles.

notice, i typed "PUNCH", in all caps.

i didn't say san sao tends to develop the detrimental habit of striking to the head, nor did i say that competitive sparring was non-beneficial. (so i laugh heartily at the poor misguided fools who cannot fathom the supreme wisdom that i bestow upon you lowly mortals!)

i think the responses validate my observation that for many, palm strikes are virtually non-existant in their repoitoire.

i believe punching to the head comes from the western boxing influence, since it is obviously ok to punch to the head, when you are wearing huge arse gloves. - however, when bareknuckle, as any kung fu man/woman worth his/her salt knows, when striking to the head straight on, you should use a palm strike.

so, tsk tsk all of you... don't read your own meanings into my posts, because when you do, you ass-u-me too much.

joedoe

05-01-2002, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by MaFuYee

...
i believe punching to the head comes from the western boxing influence, since it is obviously ok to punch to the head, when you are wearing huge arse gloves. - however, when bareknuckle, as any kung fu man/woman worth his/her salt knows, when striking to the head straight on, you should use a palm strike.

so, tsk tsk all of you... don't read your own meanings into my posts, because when you do, you ass-u-me too much.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There is no rule in kung fu that says that a strike to the head straight on should be done with an open palm - that is your opinion and maybe the doctrine of your style. I have punched people bareknuckled in the head straight on before and suffered no ill effects from it.

I believe it comes down to technique and conditioning.

scotty1

05-02-2002, 12:47 AM

Yes Joe, you're right, IMO.

"Fighting is this...fighting is that....

You hit where the opening is. you make openings where you can and captialise on them. If the situation calls for a take down, that is what you do. If it goes down, you do that....

All bets are off when it starts. No one ever wins...but someone loses."

This is true but not very constructive in a discussion over whether it is beneficial to strike the face with a closed fist. It is already a given that an opening has appeared on the face, the question is whether to punch it or not.

The above logic by GLW used all the time would make any discussion of technique or strategy pointless.

So there.:D

stoli

05-02-2002, 03:14 AM

Scotty, the original post said "kungfuers who practice san sao style sparring often develop this bad habit that are (is) detrimental to 'street' situations"

Therefore the post from GLW and the other similar posts are VERY constructive.

From Scotty "an opening has appeared on the face, the question is whether to punch it or not", do you think you have time to ponder this ??? Whilst you're wondering whether you should risk hurting your dainty little knuckles on his teeth the opening has gone, you may had just blown your only chance to 'win' the fight.

scotty1

05-02-2002, 04:55 AM

The original post is saying that people who strike to the face in competition or sparring are building a bad habit, namely, that of punching to the face.

So therefore, the issue at hand is whether punching to the face is a good or bad move, right?

So, a general dismissal of the subject which does not address the specifics of the discussion -

"You hit where the opening is. you make openings where you can and captialise on them. If the situation calls for a take down, that is what you do. If it goes down, you do that.... "

- is not very constructive is it? Of course we all know that in reality theory cannot always be applied and you may have to find an alternative target. And that is relevant how? We all know the above statement is true of fighting, does it really bear repeating in the topic of whether hitting the face is a valid option or not?

In the situation we are discussing it is a given that the face is an available target. The issue is whether or not to take it with your fist. GLW's statement about the nature of fighting does not address that. Tell me how it does, and I'll admit its relevance.

"From Scotty "an opening has appeared on the face, the question is whether to punch it or not", do you think you have time to ponder this ??? Whilst you're wondering whether you should risk hurting your dainty little knuckles on his teeth the opening has gone, you may had just blown your only chance to 'win' the fight."

Surely the whole point of discussing this on an internet forum is so that you don't have to ponder it in the street. My statement

""an opening has appeared on the face, the question is whether to punch it or not"

was not a reference to a real situation (as you took it), it was a reference to the topic under discussion, which GLW's statement completely glossed over. Which is why I said it was not relevant.

Get it?

shaolinboxer

05-02-2002, 06:14 AM

Interesting.

It think the biggest danger of punching someone in the face is that the face happens to be attached to the skull, on a big thick neck, which might not give so readily under your first. Wrist damage is a major problem, and knucle fracture. Practicing with a makiwara (hard punching bag) can help with the wrist alignment problem...or very gradual bareknuckle heavy bag (not too heavy).

I'm a big supporter of the palm strike, especially because it can be used to lift a person's chin, and up until maybe 2 years ago (after 8 years training) I would have agreed that it is the best best for strikes to the face. But with proper gradual conditioning strong fist will increase your range, and make your strikes more dangerous.

Liokault

05-02-2002, 06:19 AM

I think that hurting your hand is a big consideration.

Ok so you hit you guy in the head (or face) and he is hurt....but you have broken a bone in your hand.

Did you stop the guy?

Was there only one guy?

Can you hit with that hand again? (No)

Can you grab with that hand to grapple?

Also i think that their is much more chance of hurting your hand than most guys realise and much less chance of stopping a guy with just one strike than most guys realise....unless its a pre-emptive attack.

scotty1

05-02-2002, 07:38 AM

Isn't there a danger of bending your hand back with a palm strike?

Can you still get the power behind a palm strike that you can with a punch?

Is the structure of a palm strike any more stable than the structure of a punch? Surely both need to be executed right or yoou'll damage your hand, wrist or forearm?

shaolinboxer

05-02-2002, 07:47 AM

There is a greater margin for error with a palm strike, since the meat of the palm is connected directly to the forearm and the force does not have to be carried so carefully throught the joint of the wrist.

scotty1

05-02-2002, 08:17 AM

Oh...

Is the force of the strike not lessened by the fact that you're striking with a softer surface?

sanjia

05-02-2002, 08:40 AM

scotty1 : "Is the force of the strike not lessened by the fact that you're striking with a softer surface?"

In a word .... No.

In more words, force, in this particluar context and in simple terms is ruled by mass and acceleration. The surface of the striking tool does not greatly effect in the instance of a palm or a fist either of these.
The relatively softer surface is simply not significant.

Scotty1 : "Isn't there a danger of bending your hand back with a palm strike?"

Yes, about as much danger as bending your wrist back with a closed fist. However if you have at least learnt the basics of open hand striking it is not likely at all, and the same goes for closed fist striking.

Scotty1 : "Can you still get the power behind a palm strike that you can with a punch?"

Yes.

Scotty1 : "Surely both need to be executed right or yoou'll damage your hand, wrist or forearm?"

Well, duh.

Surely you should know this already. Does none of your Lau Gar feature palm strikes?

Mark

shaolinboxer

05-02-2002, 08:42 AM

Well, that depends. Weak wrists (and missligned wrists) can cause most of the dissapation of force, like a pool cue stick with a bent tip. So the palm stike can increase your strength by keeping all of the power behind it for effective delivery. However, The palm is a larger surface area than the knuckles, knuckles cut, knuckles are hard...would you give somebodya noogie with your palm :). The nice thing about a palm is you can upper cut and push up and out at the same time, so it makes for good throws.

Try hitting a heavy bag with a palm and a fist and see what happens. You'll be able to use more power with the palm i suspect, but you will have greater precision and piercing power the fist.
Or not, let us know :).

scotty1

05-02-2002, 09:14 AM

OK Mark

"Scotty1 : "Surely both need to be executed right or yoou'll damage your hand, wrist or forearm?"

Well, duh. "

The reason I said that is because people were saying that it is more likely to damage your body with a closed fist than with a palm strike. I was merely pointing out that it was possible with both. But thankyou for being rude anyway. Next time maybe you should read my posts twice so you can understand.

"Surely you should know this already. Does none of your Lau Gar feature palm strikes? "

No, not in the first year, which is all I did in Lau Gar. I am sorry if I have let you down O wise one.

:rolleyes:

scotty1

05-02-2002, 09:16 AM

Shaolinboxer

"Try hitting a heavy bag with a palm and a fist and see what happens. You'll be able to use more power with the palm i suspect, but you will have greater precision and piercing power the fist. "

That is exactly what I have found.
:)

GLW

05-02-2002, 09:50 AM

"The above logic by GLW used all the time would make any discussion of technique or strategy pointless. "

In my experience, 90% of all such discussions ARE pointless. The frame of reference is not there.

For example, if you are a boxer and you have a match with a known opponent, you analyze his moves and look for weaknesses. You go into the ring with a plan to use those weaknesses and apply your strengths.

In this instance, strategy makes sense. It has a frame of reference.

In a situation with an unknown opponent, the truth is that most fights in the real world end very quickly. If you have time to think about it, you are either both very good or very bad...or you are so much better than the opponent that yo could just as easily control them and walk away...

In any case, when a real situation arises, the first thing you do is react and go with the flow of the situation. Talking strategy of how you fit into the flow while being conscious of the things you do has meaning here...but not much else.

In such situations, my experience has been that I do what is required...and then when I am looking back afterwards, I actually have to remember and figure out what I did. It happened naturally.

If the fight goes on for longer, you may have time to evaluate your opponent and then devise a strategy. This is the case with fights with rounds...and why boxers have corner men (not just for water and cleaning cuts)...the see what is happening and tell the guy what to use.

Again, this has a frame of reference but every situation in the real world is different. So, to me, such discussions tend to be pointless.

Training to hit - anywhere with power and from any position...this has value and you will find that such things are used.

Training to get in and take down..same thing....

Discussing how to react to an opponent who does this or that...that has value.

Making sure that you do not always just train to hit in one target area (like those who have the head shot down to an art...but nothing else)...has value...

But in the end, reality is reality. You can't argue with it except in hindsight.

Mutant

05-02-2002, 10:45 AM

mafuyee, youre correct that your original post didnt say those things.....but it didnt say much at all, and nothing constructive....seemed like just a troll attempt.

but conversly, youre reading what you want to (not much, apperently) into our constructive responses. basically, we were trying to make something out of very little, and its a miricle this turned out to be an interesting thread...nobody said that palm strikes arent a great technique or that they don't work in the street. I prefer using a willow-leaf palm myself, one of my favorite strikes. It can penetrate much like a punch with the benefits of a palm. But again theres no guarantee that if you'll pull off a good palm strike without damaging your hand or fingers either. fights arent safe. people get hurt. period. true that some strikes are safer in certain situations to certain targets, but thats all academic, fights are chaotic.

And palm strikes are perfectly legal in san shou as far as i know. Get in the ring and palm strike away. true the gear makes punching more effective, but the other benefits of the training outweigh the limitations.
I agree with some of what you are saying, but must you say it in such a smug and annoying way?

MaFuYee

05-02-2002, 09:37 PM

Me:

i've noticed that kungfu'ers who practice san sao style sparring often develop this bad habit that are detrimental to 'street' situations:

- the tendency to PUNCH to the face. that is fine if you are wearing gloves, but any straigh on punch can potentially leave you with teeth imbedded between your knuckles.

Mutt-ant Pansy:

MaFuYee;

Your post shows very little understanding of both san shou and street-fighting.

thanks for your constructive response :rolleyes:

well i guess that's about as much as i should expect from someone who thinks buell's are cool bikes; when in reality, they are more like the 2 wheeled equivalents of a ford pinto. :eek:

scotty1

05-03-2002, 12:10 AM

Christ, third topic from the top and only two more responses from yesterday. Where's all the traffic gone?

GLW, I agree with what you're saying, all I was trying to point out was that, even with what you're saying being true, I still think a discussion about whether or not to punch to the face is a fairly solid topic, not theory caught up in the flowing and ebbing of combat, but a simple question - is it worth the risk to punch to the face?

So what do you think? :)

On the other side of what Ma Fu Yee was orignally saying, does he think that WTF (or is it ITF) Taekwondo players are better prepared for the street than a Sanshou player because their competition rules state no punching to the face?

sanjia

05-03-2002, 03:03 AM

Scotty1 : "No, not in the first year, which is all I did in Lau Gar. I am sorry if I have let you down O wise one. "

Why did you leave Lau Gar may I ask?

Mark

scotty1

05-03-2002, 05:16 AM

I was a bit ****ed off yesterday afternoon and didn't perhaps need to come back at you like that. Sorry.

So, the reason I left Lau Gar. Well, I moved house, and in the area I moved to the Lau Gar was run like the Grandmaster of McDojos. Combined cost of license, membership and uniform £80.00. Lessons at (I think) £4.00 for ONE hour. Smelled fishy.
When I phoned up the instructor I asked why it was advertised as 'Kung Fu Kickboxing' and got the reply that until you got a few grades under your belt the syllabus's were identical. So, lets get this straight, for the first year or so you are learning Kung Fu and kickboxing, because lets face it they're pretty similar :rolleyes: and then once you had your basic skills you could 'specialise' in one or the other. Didn't like the sound of that. In fact my brother went to a few of their lessons, and left pretty rapidly. He enjoyed the exercise but said it was pretty difficult to practice your kicks with a 10yr old holding the pads.

So I tried the local 5 animals class. Good kung fu lesson, fair amount of form, pak sao punching drills, combination practice etc.
Only one problem - no traditional sparring with the tools you drilled. Sparring was with boxing gloves, Sanshou without the takedowns.

Now for various reasons I have moved back to where I was studying Lau Gar before, and as I am now older and wiser I chose not to go back to my previous Lau Gar Sifu but to look around, as I recognised the familiar problem of Kung Fu form and kickboxing sparring in my old class. There was one other Kung Fu class in the area teaching Lau Gar, in fact it was my original Sifu's Sifu! So the syllabus was exactly the same, great, but taught more authentically and more to my liking. I thought I was onto a good thing until at the end of the class I asked about sparring. "Yeah, if you want to fight we do a kickboxing class on Thursdays". Eh? No traditional sparring, just kickboxing? Am I learning the syllabus for the good of my health? Obviously.
The teacher said "people are not attacked 'traditionally' - kickboxing will give them more solid skills to work with in the street."

So I came and found a good kickboxing teacher, an ex full contact Karate champion (Tim Budgen) who is training me to use what I am learning. Fight how you train etc. Why learn something you are not being taught how to use effectively? What a waste of time and money.

If I could find a Kung Fu class that could teach me to fight using Kung Fu techniques instead of kickboxing then I would do it. But under my current circumstances there is just none around. If I am going to fight like a kickboxer then I would rather learn how to do it properly.

I understand that you cannot spar in a traditional manner with large boxing gloves or dipped foam pads on, and these are for safety, hence people end up kickboxing...... But I think traditional sparring could be done safely with those NHB gloves (fingerless for open hand techniques and gel over the knuckles for padding) and good headguards.

How about yourself, are you a Lau Gar stylist?

GLW

05-03-2002, 05:43 AM

Fair enough question...

In my preferences category...

Well, punching to the head with power strikes of any sort can be risky. The distance a head can move in absorbing a blow is pretty far so you have to make sure the strike is fast and very accurate - as well as having the type of power that penetrates instead of rocking the target back.

Knuckles or palm...well, I tend not to go straight on to the head. The number of targets are limited. You have the mouth and nose... Well, having taken a number of shots there, you may break teeth, split lips, bloody a mouth, break a nose (causing tears to form in the eyes), and such, but there is nothing there that STOPS the opponent in their tracks.

Straight on - well you have eye strikes....but those are not knuckle attacks.

To the side of the head - you have the temples - pretty major, the jaw - painful if dislocated or broken...more disturbing than the nose but harder to do, the side of the eye socket - can mess up vision...but bony, the ear area - bony but can mess with equilibrium.

Any and all head strikes also have the potential of causing internal trauma (concussion) to the brain as well as neck injury from whipping backward.

Temple and jaw strikes tend to work better with fist strikes. Neck and side of head (ear) open hand...but there are exceptions.

Having said all that...I still would take the shot where it appears. I never knew anyone who would open up for a punch to the mouth just to get me to cut my hand so I couldn't hit so hard....

So...if you limit your strikes to the head, then you have strikes to the body. Targetting there is even harder. Some places can do damage - but try them on a big fat guy....striking through dough and rubber.... :)

scotty1

05-03-2002, 06:09 AM

I never knew beating sh!t out of someone could be so complimacated.

sanjia

05-03-2002, 08:03 AM

scotty1 ; "How about yourself, are you a Lau Gar stylist?"

No. Not really a 'stylist' per se but I train in Pak Mei and to a lesser extent Lung Ying.
Also, 17 years in a 'mixed' system of Chinese arts, which I teach.

Mark

scotty1

05-03-2002, 08:34 AM

How do you deal with sparring?

Have a nice w/e, I'll read your answer on Tuesday.

Mutant

05-03-2002, 09:43 AM

MaFuYee;
Thanks for such an entertaining response!!! Bahahahaha :D
Okay, so my comments were maybe just a bit harsh, sorry to get your panties all in a bunch...but I don't share your view that 'san sao sucks'.....
You've got me laughing out loud here and trying to figure out how the hell you know I had owned a Buell!?!?!!
Did I ever mention that bike on KFO? I don't think so... Hmmmm. How the **** did you know that? Did you do a google search on my name or something?!? Or do you live around Boston? Do I know you? :confused:
It doesn't bother me at all, really, I think you're funny.
I got rid of the Buell quite a while back, it was fun for awhile (until it started falling apart on me) and yes, I still think Buells are pretty cool bikes, total wheelie machines.
Now I have a Suzuki rice-rocket.
Why, what do you ride, besides your daddy? ;)

DelicateSound

05-03-2002, 03:24 PM

Scotty mate - where are you from! I had EXACTLY the same barrel of sh!t with LauGar myself.

IMO it's not KungFu anymore - it IS kickboxing!

Am I learning the syllabus for the good of my health? Obviously.

LOL :D

MaFuYee

05-03-2002, 09:37 PM

scotty1, you pine in the arse! learn to read! - i gratituitously ENCOURAGE striking to the head, and yes, even punching to the head; but not punching the the head straight on.

i think one of the most effective strikes you can do is punching to the side of the jaw after setting up with a groin kick, or elbow dislocation. (when the jaw is hanging open. - try punching yourself in the side of the jaw really hard, with your mouth open. - for me - please.)

if you are going to launch a straight attack to the head/face area, i am suggesting that the western boxing dilly-o is very risky. - an open palm strike reduces the risk of teeth impaled on fist. - if delivering a strike that comes more from an angle, (cutting 45 degrees across the jaw) i have no problem with punching.

HOWEVER, when sparring with gloves, the risk of hand injury is greatly reduced (hence the use of gloves) but, on the down side, one who has never experienced this problem, because they only fight with gloves on, may use a straight on fist attack in the street, and consequently hurt their hand, which could potentially leave the persons hand out of commission for weeks.

* a simmilar thing with boxers. - they tape their hands; they punch someone without their hands wrapped; they bust their fist.

*******************************

Mutt-ant;

elemantary my dear Mutt-ant.
it was through my supreme intellect that i was able to induce that you at least liked buells, because only someone who thinks buell's are cool bikes would post such nonsensical gibberish after reading my divine wisdom. - i bet you even still think that digital watches are pretty cool.

why is it not surprising to read that your bike fell apart?

- take it easy with the soozook. - it's very easy to lose your lisence on one of those things.

me => '00 ninja 2 fitty.
'89 yammy fizzer 600.

BrentCarey

05-06-2002, 11:27 AM

Punching to the face is not actually a problem. I suppose if shot a cannon punch (rising punch with inverted fist) directly to the mouth you would be asking for a boo-boo.

That's not to say that I don't find plenty of things wrong with San Sao. That's just not one of them.

Peace,

- B. A. Carey

scotty1

05-07-2002, 05:19 AM

"scotty1, you pine in the arse! learn to read! - i gratituitously ENCOURAGE striking to the head, and yes, even punching to the head; but not punching the the head straight on. "

Is there a point in writing "learn to read"?

Maybe there is more point in me writing "learn to write clearly"..

:)

Delicate - I'm from Winchester in Hampshire, but I live in Worthing in Sussex. Fukking wank situation with the Lau Gar huh?

Trying to find 'proper' KF training in England is difficult if you don't live in the right place.

DelicateSound

05-07-2002, 11:08 AM

Fukking wank situation with the Lau Gar huh?

Hell yes. Before I was allowed to train I had to have an interview with the chief instructor. Sound guy, been around since the 70's, front cover of Combat Mag....... etc......

He demonstrated some of his stuff [d@mn good] and told me about all of the history etc. I get told I can do either Kung Fu or Kickboxing. Oly after do I discover that "KungFu" is Kickboxing with some useless forms at the end :rolleyes:

Waste of £60. I guess it's good if you want to learn to Kickbox, but I don't, so why make out it's Kung Fu?

Ah well, there's lots of Wing Chun in the Midlands, I should find some authentic Kung Fu. What is it like around Sussex? Would have thought that was a bit of a sparse area for KF! :confused: :eek:

Colin

11-09-2002, 08:50 PM

I somehow managed to miss this thread, so my apologies for being months late in replying.

Scotty1, Weird that you didn't learn any palm striking in the first year in Lau Gar, as the first form contains several palm strikes, small & large star. Also the second form contains several too!

Too both Scotty1 & DS, Unfortunately there are many instructors that do teach combined kung fu & kickboxing classes.
What can I say! I don't teach any form of kickboxing, where as I do teach traditional sparring as part of regular classes.
All hand and foot techniques can be used, there are no gloves or pads used. There are two seperate syllabi within the BKFA, some instructors choose to combine them while others don't.

To many of them their teaching is more about making hard cash than teaching authentic kung fu, hence if you go to a "lau gar kung fu/kickboxing" class you might get 20-30+ students, where as in a traditional class you might have 5 or 6 students, but then I don't teach for the money, I also don't sell them compulsory uniforms or take annual membership fees, I do however charge £5.00 per lesson but then the studio I hire costs me £22.00 per hour, so I think that's fair.

There are good and bad classes & instructors out there. If you are in an area where there is a large Lau Gar group, then chances are that it has more kickboxing content. At the end of the day it is far easier to teach a large group kb techniques than to teach kung fu ones, so more money can be made, also as I advertise my class as a traditional one I get only people that are interested in Kung Fu, whereas kf/kb will get the boxercise lot too. Therefore more cash!

Please don't bad mouth a whole style just because of your own personal bad experiences.

Any & all of you are invited to come down and train with us anytime you like.

By the way i'm not trying to say i'm better or worse than any other instructor, only that there are traditional Lau Gar groups out there, you just got to look around.

Oh! hi Sanjia, I hope everything is well with you.

regards
Colin....................
www.laugar.org.uk

dezhen2001

11-09-2002, 09:25 PM

hi colin - havent seen ya around for a while... hope all is well :)

dawood

scotty1

11-11-2002, 07:03 AM

Colin: "Scotty1, Weird that you didn't learn any palm striking in the first year in Lau Gar, as the first form contains several palm strikes, small & large star. Also the second form contains several too!"

Yeah, very weird. Things that make you go hmmm, eh?

"Please don't bad mouth a whole style just because of your own personal bad experiences."

Didn't realise I had, but if I did I apologise unreservedly.

Man your class sounds excellent. Know of any Sifus in Sussex who run classes like that?

(PS. I've just re-read this whole thread, and I really come off like an ar$ehole at times. Didn't mean it:( I'll blame work stress:) )

scotty1

11-11-2002, 07:09 AM

Colin - from your website

"We do not teach kickboxing as part of kung fu training. It is a completely seperate activity, and should be treated as such."

Shame I don't live in London
:rolleyes:

Colin

12-05-2002, 11:09 AM

Hi Dave,
I'm still about, but I spend alot more time training just now as i've got a couple of personal students that need alot of my time.

Scotty, no problem mate with your opinions really. I've seen "kung fu" classes that would make you cry. Not just Lau Gar, but other systems where the students don't seem to get even basics like stances corrected.

I believe that as more of the students that were taught combined KF & KB move on to teach themselves, many of them are dropping the KF completely, so in away things are slowly going full circle.

I'm actually glad about this as I cringe everytime I see a "freestyle kung fu" class.

cheers
Colin..................