Astronomy hidden in Kung Fu?

[David Jamieson]

Thought this might be interesting to ponder or to share thoughts on.

Some of you are familiar with the numbers associated with Kung Fu.
108 for instance. Why 108?
72 is also a recurring number as is 18. What is this about?

Here is an idea. 108, 72, 54 and 18 are all numbers related to the calculation of precession. precession is a factor that determines position of stars relative to the rotation and axis of the earth and its "wobble" on it's access. The precession takes place over a period of 25,920 years. This time period is sometimes refered to as "Plato's Large Year", it is also related to the Mayan "Tun" measurment of time. All these numbers are related to each other as multiples and multiples plus one unit of 18,and as well each numbers divides evenly into the main number 25,920. A calendar?

Is it possible that Kung Fu could have been used as a ways and means of transmitting astronomy and mathematics? If so, what an incredible mindset to go behind such a puzzle.
Thoughts?

peace

[JWTAYLOR]

Those numbers aren't directly related to kung fu, they are related directly to Budhism, and then to kund fu from there. 108 faces o Budha.

BTW, the precession/numerology in history theory is pretty well esablished by now.

Go read "Fingerprints of the Gods". Great book that goes through number reocurrance and momuments in history and how they relate to precession, and therefore the ice ages.

JWT

[David Jamieson]

These numbers are definitely connected to buddhism, as well as hinduism and likely other religions or religio-philosophies.

But they are also found in Kung Fu. 18 hands/methods, 108 attack points, 72 consumate arts (kungs), 108 mook jong techniques, and so on. There are many more examples than these. Particulary Shaolin Kung Fu. The Shaolin temple was more than just a place of buddhist study and martial practice. All manner of things were taught there throughout it's history. Agriculture, Math, Writing, Reading, these were all aspects of daily life at points in time.

My thoughts were that each set of lessons would reinforce the teachings of another set of lessons. This occurs in Kung Fu whereby you build on fundaments until you have a veritable library of techniques, methods, exercises, healthful practices and so on.

Relative studies help each other. Math helps physics, astronomy aids agriculture and so on. Why not deal with a person holistically in this sense of study and link all of it together to fortify each part of the teachings?

The numbers are a clue to the overall "method" the way I am viewing it.

peace

[JWTAYLOR]

Just go read the book. I think you'll really like it.

JWT

[Tsuei]

I would have to agree, at least in part, with Kung Lek. I have been taught that Wudang Tai Chi is a "complex memory-peg system" including history, art, astronomy ... (mathematics was mentioned as well I believe) and of course the I Ching- each posture correlates with a chapter. We all know what interest the Chinese had/have in astrology so this is no surprise. No doubt there was crossing of information on these topics with Shaolin.. like so many other ideas. I was taught that the ideas imbedded in the forms are like the layers of an onion... as you progress you peel away more and more getting deeper and deeper in the princples... which coincidently is how we approach Shaolin as well. It only stands to reason that there would be much more than fighting applications in a form created by monks and scholars (whether Buddhist or Taoist) who would believe that destruction was wrong. The arts are about eduction and ediffication.

Please don't ask me to be very specific about the conections between art, astronomy etc... I will be honest and say that I haven't got real far into specifics other than I Ching chapters and certain mental/physical energetics for the first several postures of the form I am working on now.

[Silumkid]

So, does this mean that since my math skills are lacking, my kung-fu is doomed to remain average forever? :D

[Chinwoo-er]

there is a definate connection.
I have done alot of research into this topic. but it is far to huge for me to talk about it just on here.

But I can give a VERY brief idea about it.

Astronomy and kung fu is not directly connected. instead, they are both products of a more fundamental thought mattern of the chinese - "I Ching" Of course, I Ching is just the very very fundamental principles. It is completely useless alone. we need mediums in which these principles which can be understood. Such as religion ( the analects, daodejing, etc ) as well as themes.On top of these, we build rituals, customs, as well as actions
I Ching is not a religion as such. Rather, it is more like cognitive understanding. Basically speaking I ching is a book which teaches a certain form of though pattern which unlies chinese culture. A kind of mathematical understanding of the collectivist mindset of the people ( i don't want to go into details, sorry ). Anyway, it is through this thought pattern which people are able derive percpetions of reality. Such as astronomy as well as what fighting is about. numbers such as 18, 72, 108 are all part of that. So they hold a certain significances within CMA.

True about one things. MOST MAist back then were illitarates and did not study the book or the philosophy of it extensively. However, traditions which are passed down also harbour some of those numbers and the traditions of the culture also contains them, eg, three incenses, "8 corners" of the world, number of character in each row of poetry, number of gods, etc. hence, although most people have not studied it, common day to day life is already enough to inbed some of those ideas into the mindsets of masters.

Over the years, different branches of the "decendents' of I Ching has swapped ideas. Such as Feng Shui, Taoism, Buddhism, folk religions, calligraphy, music, painting, philosophy etc. hence, now it is just a messed up mash of "culture".

Some concepts are very obvious in MA. Ying Yang, Baqua, etc.

[Cody]

Interesting. Not generally something I think about, but I have wondered about why certain numbers are chosen.

A little off-topic -- re memory systems. Jonathan D. Spence wrote "The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci." JD Spence is a scholar, specializing in Chinese history. It looks like a worthwhile book. I didn't read much of it myself, but some here might like it.

Cody

[Unmatchable]

In China there were many monasteries where martial arts were practiced. The Shaolin monastery actually had many branches throughout China. Various books mention that the harder external systems come from Shaolin, while the softer internal systems, like Tai Chi, come from a monastery at Wu Dong mountain. However, Dr. Khoe, a student of Master Wang Kiu, feels that Wu Dong was actually a branch of Shaolin and that all Shaolin arts have an internal and external part.

Because the monasteries were like universities, the monks spent much of their time in analyzing and classifying various martial arts. The monks at Shaolin grouped techniques and principles according to early Chinese theories about nature and the universe.

An important early theory about the universe was known as the Yin/Yang theory. This theory teaches that all things are part of a whole. This whole is composed of two complementary but opposite parts called Yin and Yang. Yin represents qualities such as cold, dark, internal, and passive; while Yang represents the more positive qualities such as warmth, light, external, and active. From this theory, any complete martial art would have both extemal and internal characteristics. From the Yin/Yang theory it became popular to group things into categories of 2, 4, 8 or 64.

Another system of grouping was called the 'Five Element Theory'. This system was first documented in the fourth century BC. In the Five Element theory, nature is understood to be a cyclic process of creation and destruction. This process was thought to consist of five phases labeled Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water.

The Yin/Yang theory and the Five Element theory were used in both the development of Chinese medicine and Chinese martial art. In fact, all of Chinese thought was influenced by these two theories. In China, the number three was also popular. The Chinese associated this number with Heaven, Man, and Earth. Western science also noted that there were three primary colors, three states of matter, and three dimensions.

The numbers 2, 3, and 5 were thought to be the fundamental building blocks of nature. The fact that there were three primary colors, and that we have two eyes and five fingers, gave this concept added support.

Because of the importance of these facts, the number 2, 3 and 5 were used in combination to number the techniques of the various Shaolin arts. For example, there was the five animal form, the five element form, and the pattern ten form. In addition, there were 18 (2x3x3) classical weapons, 36 (2x2x3x3) chambers in Shaolin, and various patterns based on the number 72 (2x2x2x3x3) and on the number 108 (2x2x3x3x3). The number 108 was thought to be especially important. A mathematical look at this number reveals why 108 may have been so popular: it consists of five factors (two 2's and three 3's). In addition, when you divide a circle into five equal parts, each pentagon angle is equal to 108 degrees. Furthermore, the central angles are 72 degrees while the circle has 360 degrees. When the circle is divided into 10 sections, you get the number 36.

The circle was used to represent perfection, or the whole. Therefore, Heaven was associated with the circle and the number 36, Man was represented by the number 108, and Earth was represented by the number 72. Because of the importance placed on the number 108, this number was associated with 108 famous martial arts heroes in a 17th Century Chinese novel, called the Water Margin. Many martial arts patterns were constructed of 108 movements. For example, there is the 108 movement Tai Chi sequence, the 108 movement wooden hoop, and there are 108 points used for hitting.

The Wing Chun system being a Shaolin art, also used the same 108 numbering system. This system seems to have been constructed very meticulously as to also include the numbers 2, 3, 5, 8, and 10. The early version of Wing Chun passed on by Master Wang Kiu, consists of 10 formal sets. These formal sets are logically grouped into five categories, each consisting of 108 movements which, in turn, are grouped into 8 or 10 sections. Like modem computer error correcting codes, this numbering system has kept one version of the art intact by making modifications easy to detect.

[joedoe]

I once had it explained to me by a senior teacher in our school as being a direct link to Buddhist beliefs concerning the human condition. I can't remember it all, but it had to do with the senses, and perception and everything. I remember the maths worked out when he explained it, but I don't remember any of it :(

[Royal Dragon]

8,24,32,64 and 128??

These are also reoccuring numbers in taoist arts.

[joedoe]

What about 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 512, 1024? These are regularly occurring numbers in computer arts :D

[MaFuYee]

all i know is that the fist of the north star and the southern cross should never fight.

cause if they did, the fist of the southern cross would probably inflict seven wounds on the fist of the north star, in the shape of the big dipper.

[No_Know]

Superstitions which become traditions, based from Earth-measure.

Much of this is primeative. :~>

Superstition lends to purpose. Purpose lends to direction. Direction lends to an illusion that ones life has meaning. While one's life might have meaning, it is not necessarily so, in the way(s) one determines/thinks or believes. Perhaps, perhaps

[chen zhen]

WTF?!:confused:

[mantis108]

Congratulations, Kung Lek on an info pacted thread! :)

I think Unmatchable's post is excellent. The information are included in the study of I Ching. I particularly enjoy the explanation of the circle and the relation of the Three realms - Heaven (36), Earth (72) and Human (108). Indeed, human is a result of Heaven and Earth. Confucians and Taoists (even Chinese Buddhists) all accept these three "reality". In a way this is similar to the Indian thought of the three reality - God(s), Soul and Matter. We are all human under the blue sky after all. There are some other interesting points which he brought up but I will have to get back to it later.

As for Astronomy, Chinese has 2 sets of Constellations but mostly use 28 of them for the Luna Calendar. The Heaven set is 36 and the Earth set is 72. That again made 108 in total. The heros in the Water Margin each has an alias that is a name of the constellations.

Numbers such as 18, 32, 43 or 52 is standard measure measurement of the length of a Kalari (Indian MA's training hall). The exact half of the that is the width. It would seems the Shaolin somehow (there were Indian monks resided in the temple besides bodhidharma) adopted 18 as a reminder of the physical body is in fact served as a small training hall/secrat place for enlightenment. Martial arts is at the very least an expression of the human body in combative form.

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Great one you have on here!

If you ever wandered how Chinese calendar can calculate the season's changes so good (24 jie chi), it is all done with numbers. Numbers represent a lot of rules(tao). Taoist think all things are running in a paralle rule. So you may found there is maching of other knowledge that has to do with kungfu. from 0, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,12,18,24,36,48,60,72, 81, 108, and so on.....Chinese all has tao explaination with them. They are helpful in kungfu practicing as well as in other life aspect.

This is so great a topic, but only to cover them all will taking almost forever;)