Stances: how low can you go?

[northstar]

Usually when people discuss southern styles like Hung Gar, the "very low stances" are often pointed out. My style is WC, and from that perspective I find it diffiult to move with speed from a really low stance. On the other hand, watching clips of for example CLF sparring and the forms demonstrations on yeeshunggar.com, it seems the stances aren't that low...
My question to you with low stance-systems: do you consider the low stances (if really so) to be more of a leg strengthening exercise in forms, or do you consider them to be directly applicable in a fight?

[passingthru]

From my point of view, which is not expert, you are quite correct that very low stances decrease mobility. I know this from experience and from what teachers have said. A typical fighting stance is not that low.

I agree that one of the purposes of descending in stance training, form, and meditation exercises is to promote leg strength. The hips are also strengthened (the way the crease between leg and hip occurs, the angle, is important.). One's center of gravity is more easily perceived. A gradual process.

Some teachers recommend or insist on the lowest possible horse stance from the very beginning. The result of that is often a bunch of students with their hinnies sticking out and their backs arched. This is not correct. Not everyone is that flexible. Stretching and warmup are important. And, it is certainly an advantage to have trained in any sort of flexibility from childhood.

Actually, a more moderate horse stance, which is more balanced, provides what is needed, and one can train for mobility from it as well. Over time and practice, a certain solidity is attained, and increased sense of well-being. This, hopefully, will extend into the higher stances too.

While increased flexibility is a useful tool, a flexibility exercise is not necessarily a fighting exercise, unless one is using it to recover from or evade whatever was incoming.

To some degree, what I have said might depend on the style studied. I believe it would apply well to many of them. On the other hand, with monkey and drunken styles which steadily demand control and flexibility close to the ground, then we might be talking about something else. I am speaking strictly from my observation of these forms.

good question,

passingthru

[Wah Ren Jie]

When people look at the low stances of the southern styles, they're looking at a moment in time and generalize that one moment to be the essence of the posture. Stances are trained low and they are used low. Stance training in low solid stances obviously strengthen the legs and hips and forces the practitioner to sink his chi to his dan tien. When in combat a low stance is not held as in training it is not something you would start off in either. A low stance can be used to evade an attack while avoiding bending at the waist, which can leave you open for all types of nasty attacks. What people fail to see, is that this low stance is only held for a moment and the practitioner will immediately explode out of that position and up and into his opponent with a very powerful attack. The other use of the low stance is to use your power as well as your weight and the force of gravity to control your opponent (drop him to the ground or into a rising attack). When a southern stylist is using his stance properly, the low stance is just another movement, not something he's locked into so that he is not mobile. Peace.

Got Chi?

[Grays Anatomy]

All of the "low stances" are typically done as low as necessary. If you are training strength - bring them lower - if you are fighting you go as low as necessary. If you need to drop below some form of an attack - go lower if not - stay higher.

"Remember, that amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic."

[Fu-Pow]

For training the idea is that you strenghten your legs and establish a root. Going low helps faciliate this. I find that when training if I DON'T really try to get down low when we hold the static stances then my stances are much higher when I do forms. As someone else already pointed out low stances are form stances, not fighting stances.

I'd also like to say that there is a range in which different stance heights are appropriate ie...

-Out of striking range=high stance, on the balls of the feet, mobile deceptive foot work, no real power, jabbing, feigning

-Just within striking range=midrange stance, weight equally distributed across the foot, less mobility, power comes from from shifting the hip

-Close infighting=low solid stance, weight sunk into the heel, even less mobility, the point here is to uproot your opponent, grapple or put them in striking range

This is just a good rule of thumb..supposedly there are Tai Chi fighters (a close range style) who are rooted down even though they are not in a low stance...see Wu Style.

Fu-Pow

Fu-Pow
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Daredevil]

Training in low stances is good for your leg strength and all that, but it also trains you (of course) to use those stances in actual situations.

I wouldn't just stand or hang around in low stances in combat, though, but occasionally and especially when you want to change levels ...

[meltdawn]

When we talk about low stances, start from the root (pun intended). There are two sets of appendages: legs and arms. The legs have it much tougher. They must feel and adjust for balance, transmit power, mobilize the body, support it, and deliver strikes as needed. All this requires a strong yet flexible physiology. To achieve these things, all joints must freely and fluidly open and close.

They must not remain at the limit of their range of motion - completely stiff nor completely bent - yet they must be strongly supported and stable. More joint angle leads to a wider base of support and thus a dropped center of gravity. So the ideal angle would be the halfway point. Although that allows for a full range of motion in both directions, the leg joints do support therefore need more structural integrity than a say a 90 degree angle provides. Gravity’s a b!tch. So a little more open and upright. Think flying buttress. The closer you can get to this halfway point allowing maximum range of motion with maximum stability, the better. It will allow you to fight in whatever level you desire: go to the ground, body shot, take down, double kick.

That’s my reasoning behind why lower stances are good and CAN be used in fighting. But spine MUST be straight.

Two ways to accomplish and train: mentally understand body mechanics and be aware of your conformation; physically train your tendons and muscles. Stretch to increase tendon/ligament strength and fluidity. Max out your muscles in horse stance. Studies are proving what martial artists have known for millennia: exhausting muscle builds strength and endurance better than any other regimen.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[fungku]

Exactly, I agree with a previous post about you aren't locked in a low stance, usually they are used for avoiding attacks, and then you explode into your opponent, also they are used in an attack that is meant to 'finish' your opponent. or a powerful blow or strike. I can't explain well without 'showing', and I have no webcam, so I gues sI'll let you try and use you rimagination.

later