Smashing

[shaolinboxer]

An interesting thing that I was discussing with some of my seniors is the natural process of being smashed.

It goes like like this...Mr. Dude hears about aikido. He hears it makes little guys into super tossing strongmen...he hears the exaggerated stories of O Sensei, and the unexaggeraed stories (which are pretty impressive I must say, Ueshiba was a kung fu genious)...he has some experience with martial arts, perhaps a black belt or two. So he goes to the aikido dojo, and tries a class. He doesn't want to be rude at first so, he takes it easy. He may take a firsm grip, but nothing too surprising.

Thoughts cross his mind..."why are we walking in this stupid circle, I could just punch the guy right in the face"..."I could totally go for a choke"..."he's not safe, I could backkick him right in the gut"...

One day, he comes across somebody who instructs him a lot. The guy seems pretty tough, and moves Mr. Dude around fairly easily. Mr. Dude checks to be sure...yup, blackbelt. Then it happens. It's time to go for it. It's time to find out if aikido really works if I just decide not to move, or what really happens Mr. Dude goes for a punch or a choke. So he does...suddely the blackbelt moves differently and..SMASH. The blackbelt says instead of just holding on to me, try to come and grab me. Let's say it a shoulder grab. Mr. Dude quickly grabs the bb gi and goes to smash his face with his free hand....SMASH. This process continues until Mr. Dude accepts the fact the aikido does have some value, until they switch partners, or until Mr. Dude injures himself.

So okay fine. But what about the old man? The head hancho? During demonstrations the advanced students get tossed around by him like rag dolls...but theye probably just letting him do it. One day a student asks a question, and sensei responds by simply performing the technique on him....sensei sees Mr. Dude staring at him and invites him to attack. This is Mr. Dudes big chance, but he hold bakck a bit just to be safe (after all he is an old man) and....SIZZILLAM! Wow, that was disorienting, painful, and different than Mr. Dude thought it would be.

This process, which I fondly refer to a Slamming, seems very natural at our dojo...and many many folks go through it. I went through it myself, with just about every black belt at the school actually :D , and our sensei.

Do you guys and gals see a similar process at your schools? I trained at a few schools beore this one, and there was never a process like this of equal consistancy.

[Merryprankster]

Yes.

We give new people with attitude problems to our fifty year old blue belt or our female blue.

We give jerks and exceptionally large or strong people who could injure others to me or one of the other larger guys.

But we always make sure the experienced person is smaller or at least the same size as the new guy so that size isn't an excuse.

We had a wrestler who had done some submission stuff come in. He was using his strength and wrestling base to HURT people--when he got something he cranked it as fast and as hard as he could, and he would always pick the lighter guys who he could outmuscle for practice. This went on for about 2 weeks. Until I got hold of him :)

We haven't seen him since....

Bottom line--if your ego can't handle getting thrashed, you'll never get anywhere in BJJ.

[shaolinboxer]

Word.

Anyone else?

[Mutant]

I liked reading your discription of the SMASH process :-) very funny and insightful.

Yep, i know what your talking about. I've experienced this and witnessed it in different schools to varying degrees. I actually love it when that happens cause then you know youve found something way beyond what you know and youre on the right track to learning something new and improving. Having your ego smashed from time to time is good as it enables one to get back to the basics and/or start learning something new as a beginner all over again.

The best was with Mr. Yu. He's about 5 feet tall and his muscles are sort of suple, not bulging, so he looks totally unimposing. He trains by invite with people who are usually experienced in m.a. He's definately a 'hands on' kind of guy and spars and touchs hands with students every class. Nobody can move the guy. His chin na is scary good and he hits with explosive power. I've seen him tell tell experienced kickboxers and other stylist that their stikes are poor and sloppy or that their chin na is low-level, in an innocent and matter of fact way that is a real ego-buster. At some point, everyone wants to test and see if they can put the little guy down, and then SMASH! Back to humble reality and more dedicated training.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

beginers at our class are told to spar slow. if they refuse to do so, or try to intentionally harm other newbs, after a couple classes our ego smasher is also brought in. he also happens to be the smallest guy in the class. i have seen more than one new guy snicker as he would come up and excuse a classmate that was about to bow on and spar . .. a snicker that is always promptly wiped off their face. to add insult to injury he calmly and polietly asks them to slow down and focus as he's tossing them around.

[Stacey]

definately...but not to the nice people, only to the jerks. I can tell the people Sifu doesn't like, he flips them too, only he doesn't catch them untill after they hit the floor.


This happens often. I saw Sifu ***** slap a guy who was getting uppity. talking about how such and such technique was undefeatable. As he went to demonstrate it on him, Sifu barely touches the guy (back slap palm) and his mouth was welling up with blood. Sifu played it like the guy caused it himself by pulling the arm in just when we was going to stop and apologised, intructing him on hiss error, but I know better. I've done the same thing to Sifu and he simply unbalances me using a smooth tai chi technique. Evidently the other guy realized that Sifu was capable of doing this at will and became much nicer after that.

[Water Dragon]

Ever seen a 80 year old 5'0 95 lb Chinamen who trained in the internals since he was 20 flip out and get scared when some big guy rushes him to see "if he's the real deal?"

Well let's just say it aint pretty :eek:

[MaFuYee]

waterdragon:
why? was he incontinent?

[Water Dragon]

No, it was just freaky. The old guy looked like he just put his arms in front of his face and kinda turned and flinched. (not really a flinch, but flinch. If that makes sense) And the dude goes flying past and just "drops" down, hard. It's one of those things that still has me scratching my head a few years after I saw it :confused:

[scotty1]

LOL @ "why? was he incontinent?"
:D

I'd love to see an internal guy fight against a good opponent.

[shaolinboxer]

I believe you have. The more I observe Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, the more I believe that it is an internal art.

Why? It has the follwoing characteristics (please correct me if I am wrong):

1) Focus on breathing.
2) The vital importance or dynamic relaxation...like being in neutral under extreme pressure so that you do not make the mistake of over commitment, physically and mentally.
3) Sensitivity to your opponents intentions.
4) The ability to blend with your opponent and seize control.
5) Ability to maintain a stable center.

Just because you aren't standing up doesn't mean you don't use internal concepts.

After watching CHOKE about a half a dozen times, it's hard not to think of GJJ as an internal art (or at least Rickson's JJ).

[scotty1]

I've never seen GJJ in action.

I've not seen much to be honest.

[Water Dragon]

Check out this Rickson Gracie quote I found on emptyflower.co

Rickson Gracie: Sense ability (sensitivity?) and being in a zero point.

The most interesting aspect of jiu jitsu is the sense abiity, the sense of touch, the weight, the momentum, the transition form one move to another...that's the amazing thing about it. You must allow yourself to go on automatic pilot. You don't know exactly where you are going until the movement happens because you cannot anticipate what's going to happen. You must allow yourself to be in a zero point, a neutral point, and be relax and connected with the variations. And you pretty much flow with the go. This is a point beyond the knowledge. It's years and years of playing around that gives you this kind of sense ability.

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin--

You're probably right about BJJ/GJJ.

What about wrestling and Judo?

Just curious on your opinion.

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
I believe you have. The more I observe Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, the more I believe that it is an internal art.

Why? It has the follwoing characteristics (please correct me if I am wrong):

1) Focus on breathing.
2) The vital importance or dynamic relaxation...like being in neutral under extreme pressure so that you do not make the mistake of over commitment, physically and mentally.
3) Sensitivity to your opponents intentions.
4) The ability to blend with your opponent and seize control.
5) Ability to maintain a stable center.


external arts have these also. So what's your point?

[Water Dragon]

I wanna answer to!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrestling = No. Because the focus is on strength and power almost exclusively in the beginning. The refined technique is not focused on until later.

Judo = Yes. Because proper technique is a major focus from day one.

Note that this does not make either better or worse, just a difference in training philosophy. After a few years they'll get you to more or less the same place.

[shaolinboxer]

To tell you the truth, I do not have enough experience to be able to tell the difference between these fighters on the ground (Judo, Wrestling, GJJ). I can say that Judo throws are founded on principals of sensitivity, and that maintaining that zero poitn in wrestling can be the difference between suffering a takedown and scoring one.

Kumkaut - I believe I made my only point. If you say external arts have these characteristics, then that's cool with me.

[Merryprankster]

Hmm.

Water, do you really think the focus is on power and strength?

More specifically, what about your experience with wrestling leads you to that conclusion?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Hmm.

Water, do you really think the focus is on power and strength?

In relationship to other arts, yes. at the beginning. But Shuai Chiao takes an external approach to training as well. That has nothing to do with how good an art is/isn't (which sounds like what you're thinking.) Remember, I left Taiji for Shuai Chiao.

More specifically, what about your experience with wrestling leads you to that conclusion?

The way the techniques are taught. The focus on just making the technique work instead of making it work within a certain set of criteria.

I pretty much define internal/external in regards to the training at the beginning levels. At higher levels, after the foundations have been set, all arts operate in a very similar manner.

[Merryprankster]

Ok. Maybe I'll give you that then. Funny how "what your definition is," makes all the difference in whether or not I'll argue with you :)

I have two reasons that I asked that:

1. I was a counter wrestler, generally, so I always had kind of a "BJJ," mindset.

2. It was always the strong, powerful football players who had their asses handed to them by guys who were 20 lbs lighter that never came back :)

How is your BJJ going? And your Shuai Chiao?

[Water Dragon]

Bro, it's been disappointing. I've been slammed at work. My kid started T-Ball, both kids had their b-days this month, and one of my closest friend's Father was murdered a few eeks ago (which really screwed with me) I haven't done much of anything for about 5 weeks now. I am so going to have my azz haded to me when I get back on the mat :eek:

Here's another way to look at the internal/external thing:

The BJJ guys always yell "don't use strength"
The wrestlers/shaui chiao guys are a lot more concerned with just making it work, without any restrictions.

[Merryprankster]

Dude, I'm sorry. That's blows.

Best wishes for your friend and you.

And yes, what you said about BJJ and wrestling makes TOTAL sense.