Today grappers vs today internal martial artist what would be your strategy

[blacktaoist]

Ok guys, Its friday I just got paid, So I said to myself what the hell let me start another mind thinking opinionated thread.....LOL


A lot of internal martial artist today, think that they will never go to the ground in a sparring situation or even real fight. Most on FKO think that all they have to practice is push hands and they will be able to utilize just stick and follow to stop any attack.

Ok fine, thats just one method of the internal martial arts that any internal boxer can try to utilize. But stick and follow is not only a Tai Chi method.

Many other external martial arts utilize stick and follow, they just have their own fighting characteristics in utilizing stick and follow theory in a fighting situation.

Most interal martial artist don't practice any form of groundfighting, because like always most think that they will never go to the ground if their following the concepts and theories of their style.

But lets say you met a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter, that is good at taking their opponents to the ground, And if you don't know by now, these guys can stick and follow. Now you have a opponent in front of you that utilize the same theory, but the only difference between you and your opponent is, your opponent major objective is to take you down to the ground to utilize his game of stick and follow and hopefully put a head lock, neck crank or arm bar to finish you off.

What strategy with you utilize to deal with a aggressive grappling master tactician some one like Frank shamrock, ken shamrock, or Bas Rutten.

And for you internal practitiiners that say size don't matter, I like to know your strategy interpretation, of how you utilize your internal method to finish off some one like Mark coleman. You need more then just stick and follow to win a victory over this man. But the first thing is you have to stop him from taking you to the ground, And this is what this thread is all about.....

grappers vs today internal martial artist............

[Water Dragon]

There's a lot of similarity in the sticking/following/yielding etc. What is different is how you move and generate power. On the ground, your hips act like the legs and become the root. The center moves from the Dan Tien to the center of the chest. IMO, You need to spend some time learning the specifics of how to move on the ground. Internal training helps alot, but I don't think it is sufficient without learning the ground game.

[Phantom Menace]

Internal martial artist would get killed without devoting a considerable amount of time in learning how grapple. My strategy would be to train in jiu jitsu, catch wrestling, sambo, judo, and greco roman. These NHB fighters you mentioned are also excellent strikers. So, I would spend an equal amount of time training in western boxing and muay thai. I would also get into a hardcore conditioning regimen. Of course I'm doing all of this and at the same time still learning my IMA. Riiiiggghhhttt....

Basically an internal martial artist has no chance in hell to beat any of the names you mentioned in a NHB arena. Unless of course you are indepedently wealthy and can afford to train all day and have the natural born talent and aptitude to develop all the necessary skills.

Talking about fight strategy is useless without proper preparation. It's a mental exercise that borders on fantasy and leads nowhere. It's worrying about how to decorate a house and forgetting about the foundation.

[Water Dragon]

Why does everyone here insist on comparing their skillz or lack there of to PROFESSIONAL fighters? Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who's seen amateur NHB events. If you haven't seen them, GO It puts a lot of things into perspective.

[Phantom Menace]

I believe it's called illusions of grandeur. :-)

[blacktaoist]

proper preparationPhantom Menace-Talking about fight strategy is useless without proper preparation. It's a mental exercise that borders on fantasy and leads nowhere. It's worrying about how to decorate a house and forgetting about the foundation

BT)I be the first person to agree with you on your view point. But many internal practitioners today,feel that the only proper preparation is push hands and translation of ancient Chinese fighting theory and applications to deal with any opponent.

I like to know just , what method an internal practitioner would utilize if their never practice any form of groundfighting, Most internal practitioners just don't train in groundfighting, So i like to know just what technique they will utilize to keep them from going to the ground. Your opponent do have to be a professional grappler, he can be a nonprofessional just like us. But the only between me and you guys up here on KFO is I practice groundfighting with my internal method and with other martial artist I know.

So I know from my own experience that if you don't have and knowledge of how to fight on the ground, you are good as dead even in the hands of a nonprofessional grappler if he gets you on the ground, and you don't know and kind of ground controlling techniques like heard lock, arm bar, arm pit hold, neck crank, reclining guillotine, escape from frount mount...ect

Professional grappler or nonprofessional grappler, if you don't have any and kind of groundfighting knowledge if you hit the ground, no chi, push hands or fighting theory is coming to save you.

[DF]

BT wrote: I like to know just , what method an internal practitioner would utilize if their never practice any form of groundfighting, Most internal practitioners just don't train in groundfighting


It is not just internal practioners ( my opinion is there is no such thing as internal/external practioners, but that is another story) but a problem that exist in most if not all KF practioners. Most KF styles base on rooting for generation of power, etc. Once that rooting is gone, it is like fish on dry land. I have address this concern to a lot of the " masters":rolleyes: but still none had provided a satisfactory answer. The most simple answer as many had suggested is to cross train but if that is the only solution then one must question the effectiveness of kf and our respective styles.

I don't really have an answer as far as how to go against a grappler or a thai fighter, etc. To me a fight is a fight, the opponent is a human just like you and I. He/she can be hurt and kill just like you and I can in battle. The mind set is most important both in combat and in training. If we don't have confidence in our techniques then it will never work. If a grappler doesnot believe he can take you down, he cannot win.
I think it is important to be aware and familiar with all ranges of fighting from stand up ranges to ground fighting. But at the end of the day, it is better to be master in one then half ass in all.

DF

[blacktaoist]

DF)( my opinion is there is no such thing as internal/external practioners, but that is another story)

BT)What up DF, I agree with you on your view point. My opinion is there is no external or internal just different martial art methods that fighting characteristics fundamental principles are deifferent.

[DF]

BT, how are things ? Did brother Chris tell you the conversation I had awhile back with an Internal stylist, lol. Man, folks has to learn to keep it real, this is an art of war.

DF

[Wu-Xing]

(BT)What strategy with you utilize to deal with a aggressive grappling master tactician some one like Frank shamrock, ken shamrock, or Bas Rutten?
etc

only sticking and following sounds like internal artisits always wait for the other guy to attack and then try counter.how about we get the first strike in and become the aggresor?

You cannot be the best at everything so instead of trying to train everything and spreading your forces too thinly , why not train in NOT being taken down in the first place?

And why is it internal practitioners are being asked how they would deal with a BJJ guy on the ground? why isnt it how a BJJ guy would deal with one of us standing up? before he gets a chance to put his hands on us and try take us down?

[Prairie]

Today's IMAs would, for the most part, get creamed by grapplers. I believe this is so because of a different level of intensity. Grapplers train against people who are trying things fast and hard.

The taiji that I'm used to tends toward stand up grappling. That said, we don't practice with much intensity - however we're all low level students just trying to learn the basics of proper mechanics. Competancy with taiji against any other martial art (including "grappling") will require exposure to high intensity application training and sparring first.

I'll expand my original opinion. For the most part, the modern neijia person would get creamed by a practitioner of any other martial art.

Geez... I must have had some poor experiences.

[Wu-Xing]

>Today's IMAs would, for the most part, get creamed by grapplers. I believe this is so because of a different level of intensity. Grapplers train against people who are trying things fast and hard.

I train xing yi quan, we train hard and fast.

>The taiji that I'm used to tends toward stand up grappling. That said, we don't practice with much intensity

if by intensity you mean intent, then no matter what MA you do you will never win a fight.

> - however we're all low level students just trying to learn the basics of proper mechanics.

thats fair enough, no need for intent at that time.

> Competancy with taiji against any other martial art (including "grappling") will require exposure to high intensity application training and sparring first.

ok, so once you get that will you then have some faith in what your doing?

>I'll expand my original opinion. For the most part, the modern neijia person would get creamed by a practitioner of any other martial art.
>Geez... I must have had some poor experiences.

Yeah, you must have ,to hold such a dull outlook on what you train....sad really.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Sorry, a double post.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I have to agree with blacktaoist that if you don't have experience on the ground then you will likely get creamed if it goes there with an opponent who has experience.

The question blacktaoist asked was "what strategy to use with an agressive grappler? "

For me the first thing is the standing contact, to attempt to prevent it going to the ground. I have been taught to use the internal arts as being based on mid-range grappling skills and short expressions of power. If a person wants to apply agressive kinetic force they must cross the mid-range. strikers prefer to launch their weapons from longer ranges and to cross the mid-range with the limbs. Grapplers prefer to cross the mid-range with their bodies to close to close range. So, absorb and stick to strikers to keep them from staying out at long range where they are most comfortable (this speaks to the "what about a Muay Thai fighter?" thread). Expand and roll grapplers to keep them out from close range where they are most comfortable.

However, this is simply defensive strategy, the opportunities owning the mid-range give are chances for short expressions of power. With control of the mid-range it is often possible to completely disable the positive alignment of the opponent's structure (and this is giving them the great benefit of the doubt that their structure was good in the first place, something I have found to be rarely true of any style of martial artist). Once their structure is compromised then it creates lines of weakness for sharp explosions of force. Misalignments across joints can be places of weakness that have to bear the load of the force and can easily result in muscle tears and even explosive dislocations and ruptures of joint capsules (study contact sports injuries to see what I'm talking about).

As well, during the fraction of a second that the opponent is recovering their alignment you can hit with short power. I have found that you can be quite accurate in the mid-range. The more anatomy and vital areas you know then the more chances your hitting wil be effective.

Lets assume that your don't own the mid-range and you go to ground. I feel that good tuishou and roushou skills are extremely useful here, especially if your push-hands has been trained realistically and not as some idealized search for softness that ignores the full range of energetic possibilities (its about Yin and Yang after all. A cloud-like touch is marvelously subtle, but without lightning its just damp air).

I once saw Sam Masich work for an hour with a international level Judoka explaining how Tuishou related to groundwork. I paid the exchange my full attention and even took notes as it went on.

[As an aside, Sam began martial arts as a Judoka under the coaching of Brian Gallagher. Brian comes from a real Judo family having produced several provincial and national champions. As well Brian studied Yang style with Raymond Chung.)

Sam showed the Judoka how when the opponent tried to close up that Beng/expansion could keep them out and how when they tried to open out Song/closing could keep them in. Sam stayed quite relaxed and din't seem to have to struggle and the Judoka was gasping for breath whenever they tried to exert. Sam used many aspects of skill derived directly from Tuishou, such and rollIng, transfering, pivoting and exchanging. Not to mention receiving.

Later on I began to use these same ideas when I engaged on the ground. As well, I got the idea of matching and adding energy to the opponent from my Chen Tuishou training with Eric Tuttle. So when I'm on the ground and the grappler is working his devious skills I find a weakness in the structure (I find it because I have matched their energy/force), then I add energy/force to that weakness. I usually look for a hypertension in the lower ribs or hypochondium region to add to. Basically I try to add power to their diaphragm to interfere with their breathing. I spiral into or out of centre, I shrink/expand/twist with my waist to add the power. I'll often open one side and close the other to accentuate the imbalance in the opponent's body. Once they begin to weaken due their impaired oxegenation, I start to allow other mid-range grappling opportunities and short power to manifest, since this is the area where my skills are dominant.

If none of this works I get my ass wupped and have to tap out or call 911.

[blacktaoist]

DF I'm doing all right, Right now I do a lot of security work for some companies, so I don't have that much time to teach any more, But I still have time to practice, most of the time I practice on my job sites.

Did brother Chris tell you the conversation I had awhile back with an Internal stylist, lol. Man, folks has to learn to keep it real, this is an art of war.

BT) I talk to Ben a few days ago, at the time he was upset about that Big Ron thing that was going on. But as you know Big Ron turn out to be a illusion. Man there are a lot of nuts on the internet. Anyway DF he didn't get to tell me the story of your conversation with the internal guy.....LOL

As you know there are a lot of so called internal practitioners, that think their going to develop some kind of extraordinary Chi power, and high level fighting skills, from just practice forms and push hands all day.

When I first got in to the So called internal Martial arts, I myself use to think that the internal martial arts was better then the so called external martial arts. I to use to just practice ba gua Zhang forms and push hands for hours thinking this was the best way to reach a high level in fighting.

One day I met this guy name stanley who is a judo and jiu jitsu practitioner, and was learning Yin Ba Gua from my sifu Chen Xiaoping. The day I met him me and him was talking about martial arts and their many methods, Back then I had a very low opinion of the so called external martial arts. That day my sifu, ask me have I been practicing my low ma pu, I lie and said yes.

My sifu then told me to spar with stanley, Like I said back then I had no real hardcore sparring experience, but stanley did and boy did he show me the light the hard way. there was not time to think just react, but I was no match for stanley, he got me down to the ground fast and put me in put me in so many locks and arm bars that if you were there, you think he was doing a groundfighting instructional video on my ass. From That day on I never look down on other martial art styles.

A while later, stanley had a go at my Sifu, no matter what stanley try to do , he could not get my sifu, to the ground, I then ask my sifu how come stanley couuld not get him on to the ground. My sifu said because of his root. He said the reason stanley got me down to the ground is because I had not real root. With out root your Kung Fu is nothing.

So the bottom line is practice your Ma Bu stance low to develop a powerful root. Today many internal martial artists take the easy way out by practicing a high ma bu stance(to easy) thinking their going to develop a powerful root. There is no way a practitioner is going to develop a power root by training high ma bu stances.

Anyway my opinion is, if a Internal martial artists or any Chinese martial art practitioner train in the traditional method of stance training, it will be very, very, hard for a grappler to take a internal practitioner to the ground.

My sifu view is, a grappler that trys to tackle, is just giving a big opportunity for a internal martial artist to strike them, he said that one must just try to stay calm and natural to see their opportunity and then utilize the most direct techniques (plus proper ma bu and other stance training) will prevail, no matter what a grappler fighting style. One must fight their game not the opponents.

I myself respect my sifu viewpoint, but I myself train in grounfighting because I just like the workout it gives a person, and I love the ground controlling techniques.

I viewpoint is today internal practitioners train in the old traditional conditioning combat methods of the ancient Chinese taoist boxing masters, there is no way in hell a grappler will prevail.

Just something to think about. :)

Peace, practice and live long.

[Justa Man]

i think in the beginning i'd do my best to keep a good fighting distance between us (good for me that is). not let him get too close for as long as possible and hurt him as much as i can at that range. alot of fakes to open him up/take advantage and maybe keep him on the reactive side of things rather than the initiating side.
but alas, it's inevitable that he will close the distance, and when that happens (and if i've trained the reaction enough) i would try damaging his skull, neck, upper spine, ears, etc. when he shoots in to grab hold of me. i've seen fighters just pound away at the head like gluttons, but you gotta have the right target man. from the small bit of nhb i've watched, i've noticed grapplers maybe throw some hands high and then shoot in quick. if i can take advantage and punish them when they are moving in with maybe my elbows while at the same time, back or side stepping, i just may stalemate their attempts to get a hold of me.
but if and when i get taken to the ground (which is more of a 'when' than an 'if'), this is where i go for broke. if it's real life and not an nhb type bout, i'm biting, tearing flesh, gauging eyes. whatever i can. at this range i am in his domain, in his realm of expertise. that's when you assume the cornered rat mindstate and go for broke.
but i think my best bet if i had an upcoming fight vs a grappler would be training in the range where he's trying to shoot in. i know it's only open for an instant, but from what i've seen, the nhb grappler will leave his head exposed when shooting.
definitly alot of movement on my part in the beginning (step wise). not saying my stepping is going to keep him from ever getting hold of me, but it would make it that much harder for him to do his thing.
i think it would be dumb to say that my best bet would be to take up jiu jitsu, or judo, wrestling, etc etc. me training in one of these arts to get a basic level of understanding in them is not going to make me any bit of a match for someone who uses one of these arts as his primary fighting skill. i say stick to training bgz or whatver your main art is but train with the grappling/wrestling scenerio in mind.


ps - bt, i just read your last post and i can't believe i left out having a strong root. that is more essential than anything i've said!

[Stacey]

Well if you take people with equal "mat time" IE two man drills and sparring, then the Internal artist would win.


What they do outside such as forms and weightlifting doesn't count for this.


Now assuming that both people knew the same number of techniques and practiced equally hard...defenitley internal.

Wrestlers develop their root by having people try to take them down. Supposing that the internal artist did these, or similar drills, I don't see any contest.

Now the sad fact is that most internal artists don't work as hard as your average wrestler or have 20 workout parners for hours at a time.

[Fu-Pow]

Black Taoist-

I like your last post, it was the most sincere and thoughtful post I've seen you put out there.

There is definitely an overriding principle in Chinese martial arts and true Japanese martial arts and it is that you must make your body like a pyramid. A pyramid has a wide and strong base and a small top. The way you develop this type of physique is by stance training.

I learned this the hard way when I started my MA training in Hung Gar. My teacher would make us do one form over the course of 30 min in impossibly low stances. If you even tried to stand up he would yell at you. I thought it was insane at the time but now I understand the logic behind it. You must develop the "root."

It's funny when you read MA magazines now and you see these dudes with the body builder physiques. Huge upper bodies and chicken legs. They can probably hit pretty hard. But I think, man these guys are just like sleeping cows...waiting to be pushed over. Their center of gravity is so high its practically in their oversized necks.

Anyways, I think that the major difference between internal and external in this regard is that in the external you are fighting the ground to stand up. This builds, strong but tense legs and its hard on the joints.

The internalist learns to align the body and frees the lower body of tension.

How do I know this?

Because I've felt my Taiji teachers leg when shifts his weight onto it. His quad muscle actually gets longer like a rubber band. He calls it eccentric contraction. Weird but true.

Another thing that I think you touched on is that fighting is not so much about technique as it is about heart. There is an expression that goes "all is fair in love and war." This means that in war you have to do what ever you have to win. Standing up, on the floor, in the air, in the water, whatever. You might have a strategy going in but in the end you may have to abandon it and get down and dirty. Anybody who's ever truely gotten their ass kicked in sa street fight knows this. Theory can go out the door.

Just my two cents.

Peace.

[Kumkuat]

high or low, just practice standing. I once met a guy who practiced standing post a lot. I mean, two one hour sessions. Once in the morning and once in the night. Well, I don't know about you guys but that's a lot to me since I rarely train. :) Anyway, his stance was pretty high but boy when I tried some push hands with him, he was near impossible to move. most people had a hard time with him too. Anyway, start high and work your way lower.

[CD Lee]

Let me make this very very clear. I am not trained to fight a professional grappler. Therefore, I am not in shape to fight a Mark Coleman. I do not beleive that I would beat Mark Coleman in any fight. It is within the realm of possibility that I could beat him by some miricle in a street fight, or domestic type fight. There is no possibility that I could beat him in a UFC type fight no matter what, unless he had a heart attack on the spot.

However, if I, the undertrained and out of shape by pro standards fighter, were to actually fight Mark Coleman for serious real, here is what I would do. (yeah right tough boy!)

I would look for the nearest weapon. If I found any object I would use it on him with intent to severly damage him even perhaps critically. With fear of losing my life, I would grab at the first thing I could get near with my mouth, and bite the **** out of whatever flesh I found, rip, tear, spit, bite, while snaking my hands for his balls, nose, eyes or cheeks. I would mainly try to disable his eyes, but would seek to dig my fingernails as deeply as possible into his face flesh, hoping to claw onto one of his lips, tyring to rip the connecting membrane, causing 'massive' mouth bleeding.

While I doubt this would actually work on Mark, you see my intent is to fight him as if I would try to severly mame/disable him in less than 10 seconds. This is the type of fighting Mark Coleman has not trained or sparred against, and the type of intent a person like me would have to have to have even a slight chance to win.
Anyways, this is my Walter Mitty version of how I would lose to Mark Coleman.

[miscjinx]

First of all I would like to say I have never gone to the ground in a fight...I also don't study ground fighting (although I play with it on rare occassion to experiment with other areas within internal strength principles).

I remember when I first studied tai chi, my teacher and us students played a game in which one person was in the center while the rest circled. The rules where only one attack at a time, the guy in the center can't turn (must stay stationary), and lighter attacks from the rear. My teacher had a training partner that was a grappler and so tried to take us down at times. Over the course of the class we came up with many counters...from throws, to strikes, to locks and breaks. I don't think a grappler would have an easy time getting me to the ground.

Now even if a grappler got me to the ground, my tai chi background also includes pressure points. Internal martial arts learns to punch with their entire bodies. You can still do this on the ground. There are several devastating strikes I can think of that I could do, particularly to pressure points.

Tai chi fans, think about this one. The pheonix eye punch. Done closer, with proper body mechanics and following internal strength principles, you can use the centerline bow to pick up yourself and the opponent (who is on top) a little and close like a bear trap for a strike. You are using your body weight and entire body AND you are using your opponents body weight to fuel this strike. The temples is a traditional target. I like the neck. Flat palm across the ears to pop the eardrums for another variation. After this you could probably get the grappler off you long enough to stand back up again. Don't stay on the ground, whatever you do. After a really good blow, get back on your feet.

Tai chi learns to do short power. You only need an inch (and expert doesn need any space) to do a full powered punch. Being able to generate such power, it does not matter that you are on the ground. As the grappler tries to lock you up, pummel him...short powered strikes to the vitals.

[les paul]

I speak from experience.....

However, that does't mean a whole hell of a lot on news groups like this.......

Bull****t is Bull****t!

But!

Your going to play with a good grappler, better know your Chin-na standing, kneeling and in a prone posistion.

Best is to know how to set up strikes using chin-na attacks (i.e while he's defending against a grapple, strike!)

Best is to know how to set chin-na using strikes (i.e while he's defending against strikes, sieze!)

Your chin-na attacks should flow from one attack to another playing off the opponents defense. (good wrestlers, judoka and jujitsuka have this ability)

Best is to learn "the sprawl" because there is a good chance of being taken down.

Fight with the strategy of your style (don't assume you have to fight a grappler using grappling techniques)

If your style uses a lot of strikes, study defensive techniques against grappling, instead of dropping all that you know and cross training in a grappling art

Lastly......

Cross train your art!!!! Take your art into other school or get involved with other martial artist to get experience using your art against others.

Much of what is in Taichi, Bagua and Xingyi can be used with great effect against a grappler by slightly modifying the technique.
By cross training the art against other artist of different styles you will be able to to find and explore your art.

You can't do this if your cross training in the latest and greatist new fad art to come along.

Nuff said I'm out!!!!!

Les Paul

[blacktaoist]

les paul)Much of what is in Taichi, Bagua and Xingyi can be used with great effect against a grappler by slightly modifying the technique.
By cross training the art against other artist of different styles you will be able to to find and explore your art.

BT) I areee with what you said. This is the point I'm trying to make. All a internal martial artist have to do is workout a little with a few experienced grapplers, this way they can get a feel for a grapplers movements and rhythm. Also you are developing your reflexes for both offensive and defensive techniques to deal with a grappler short range technique.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Start high and work your way lower.”

If you do this it is still only an exercise, might as well do some wt training or something.
What you need to sink is the mind and relax the body.

Why do people feel the need to cross train to play against the grapplers?
Why don’t the grapples cross train against all others?

I think the real question is one of real skills and defining those skills in terms of the style your practice.
As BT, says many IMA people, even the ones who have been playing for a while don’t really have the skills they claim.

This is how hard IMA is.

Some one compared grapplers sensitivity with TC skill sets, or even to suggest that they have some type of nei-gung going on. All I can say is they are very far from it. It doesn’t just happen, even if you try for 3 lifetimes with out a teacher who can guide you, it won’t work.




david

[Phantom Menace]

Okay, what I would really do is as the grappler shoots in for a double leg takedown I will root myself like a tree, gather up my chi from my dantien, focus it on my right palm then slap that grappler silly on his spine and drop him like a rock! Just kidding!!! I bet all the chi huggers got excited over that one. LOL

[Esteban]

Hi PM, and all,

Fwiw, I think it might be a mistake to confuse "grappling" with bjj, wrestling (pakration, graeco-roman, cacc, etc, etc). But that's beside the point. There are a lot of people who argue that wrestling is the oldest of Chinese martial arts, and that it underlies most of the fundamental styles. For example, I don't know if there's a cma that claims to be older than shuaijiao. So, I think we're assuming too much when we see tcc as a "striking" art. In fact, there are only a few punches; but the potential for striking with other parts of the body remains there. In addition to that, qinna has been mentioned. Shucks, the part of it that studies "sealing" the breath and blood is essentially the same as one form of "submission" in judo, jiu jitsu, bjj, etc. Of course, if one doesn't know where the potential for triangle chokes are in the form, then it won't do much good. Anyway, people seem to say all the time that "a bjj guy has you if he gets you on the ground." Not exactly, he has you where he "wants" you. That, in itself, can be used to your advantage. But, the more important thing, imho, is that no one has suggested "why" the bjj wants you there or what he wants to do. The submissions that haven't been mentioned (ankle lock, knee lock, leg lock) are the ones where the distinction between "internal" and "external" don't really work very well. The bjj guy, when he faces another bjj guy, is worried about him applying that form of "submission" on him. And, unlike bagua, say, he doesn't really plan for more than one opponent, and usually doesn't believe that he could stop two opponents from applying a lock. Anyway, I guess you could describe a lot of the submission stuff as qinna on the leg (especially the ankle). The principles are exactly the same. As for the suggestion that cross-training is necessary, I would agree, if we're talking about competition sparring. If we're talking about ma, generally, then I'd say that it might be unnecessary. The techniques for dealing with the guy who just wants to grab you are built into the form. I guess "rooting" is a good idea, too. But, even then, after one is rooted and the bjj guy is struggling to uproot you :), what are you goiing to do. Would it be much different if you did it a split second sooner? Will it be a strike? The first guys to dethrone the Gracies at UFC was a muay thai guy who stood his ground and just struck. Afterwards, most people started to cross-train: i.e., the "grapplers" started training with pro boxers (muay thai, pro western). That's about where it is right now in the sport. And, the most meaningful difference between serious mma practitioners and serious cma practitioners is the level of physical conditioning, in terms of strength, flexibility, cardio-vascular fitness, mental toughness and the ability to withstand pain. One on one, such a person is difficult to beat, whether he is a grappler, striker, or any combination. I have always been taught that you have to train as hard as your expected opponent, not that you have to do what he does. But, if he does 1,000 kicks per day, and you expect to kick, then don't be surprised that 50 kicks won't do you much good.

Respects,
Esteban

[beautifulvaley]

1. ring controll
2.srtaight right hand on forward pressure
3.sprawl and elbows to the spine or kidneys, floating rib
4.grind corn

[Kaitain(UK)]

"So, I think we're assuming too much when we see tcc as a "striking" art. In fact, there are only a few punches; but the potential for striking with other parts of the body remains there."

I have to argue with this one - for me, the whole point of Taiji is that there are no learned "ready meal" techniques, you're given a toolkit and you use whatever is required as and when needed.

Grappling is what you do as you're trying to nail someone - open up the target and let loose. TCC is a martial art - like Bagua and Hsing-I it's for seriously hurting people (like most MA) - grappling against a live opponent is a huge risk unless you hit them as well. For me a strike is made with whatever part of me is nearest. If you examine the form you can find hundreds of strikes, equally you can find limitless holds, locks and throws. But they aren't "fast-food" applications - they are just movements that you have to examine and test to make them work for you. Talking about what punches you can see in the form seems to miss the point. Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.

I also want to talk about the push hands picture. I train push hands a lot, but I treat push hands as training for that split second when I gain contact. It's not some long term fighting strategy - it's just training relaxed movement and building those principles that are core to TCC training. However, I also train Karate to have opponents moving at speed with good powerful technique - and it's ****ed hard to do anything beyond the Karate way of block and counter. I'm beginning to get there now but I'm very crude in my execution - and I can't even begin to see the way to the TCC that some people here talk about - I stick to what comes in and then I'm hitting and grappling. It feels like I've got a long road ahead of me.

I certainly agree with BT that training push hands and the form/s alone is insufficient to effectively utilise the art - unless the push hands you do is at a level that makes it indistinguishable from full contact sparring to an audience.

I also think it's naive to think that your tcc has failed if you get taken to ground and therefore you shouldn't train ground work. I agree that you shouldn't assume you will be taken down - but surely it's worth having some contingency in place if things go wrong?

[Repulsive Monkey]

I echo your sentiment.

[Esteban]

Hi Kaitain,

I wrote:

"So, I think we're assuming too much when we see tcc as a "striking" art. In fact, there are only a few punches; but the potential for striking with other parts of the body remains there."

You replied:

"I have to argue with this one - for me, the whole point of Taiji is that there are no learned "ready meal" techniques, you're given a toolkit and you use whatever is required as and when needed."


[E] Yes, I think you mistook my point. In general, I was making the same point as you do about tcc being a "toolkit" with lots of possibilities. From what I saw in the discussion, and from the premise of the question, it seemed like tcc v. grappling was like comparing boxing to wrestling. I don't think that tcc can be divided that way, although there are certainly specialists who extract from the art (or the form) specific striking techniques. Anyway, there's a saying that every tcc movement has four components: "hua, na, da, fa" (neutralize, grab, hit, issue (some use shuai instead of fa). BTW, I agree with you if you're saying that what looks like a punch could also be someone holding on to something. The other formula that you imply, and which I agree with, is that in tcc "there is no set form and no set method." That's why I suggested that considering it a striking art was a mistake. --Not that striking is a mistake or that one could only do so with the fists. There are kicks, knees, even "specific" movements called "elbow", but there's also chin, shoulder, back of head, etc., etc., etc., but even after those are included, Imho, there's a lot more.

Respects,
Esteban

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks for clearing that up :) nice to see someone thinking in the same sort of arena

[Shooter]

Esteban, wow. Next, you'll be trying to tell people that TCC has ground-fighting adaptability in it's movement and structure principles. :mad:

[Phantom Menace]

>>Esteban, wow. Next, you'll be trying to tell people that TCC has ground-fighting adaptability in it's movement and structure principles.

hey shooter...It does! Too bad you don't know it... :D I'm not telling either. :cool:

[Shooter]

Phantom Menace, c'mon man...help a brother out. :)

Nice to see people evolving toward a broader view of TCC's potential. When I started broaching these ideas on KFO more than a year ago, I had to apprise the legends here like Black Jack and Knifefighter, et al, of TCC's versatility. Lots of IMA peeps were as opposed to what I've been doing with TCC as those guys were in their refusal to acknowledge the possibilities. Now they have no choice...they gotta recognize! HA!

[Mark M]

The first art I learned was wrestling. I started when I was 12 and eventually became pretty good. When I went to college in 1969 I became friends with a guy from Japan who was a Black Belt in Judo and Karate. He apparently studied at the head school in Tokyo. He was very good, I actually saw him kick some wiseass big guy's butt pretty easily. Not sparring but a real fight. Anyway I was in the gym working out and he was there doing his Kata and he saw I was interested so he started showing off a bit and was throwing punches and kicks at me stopping right before he hit me. He was proud of his stuff and he had every right to be because he was that good. He asked me what I would do if I was attacked like that. I said let's try it, I honestly forget what it was that he tried, but I closed on him and used a "duck under" got behind him, back heeled him and tied him up on his back. He could not get out. He had no comprehension of what happened to him. I let him up and all he could say was " what you do"? After I explained it to him he realized where he was deficient and asked to learn wrestling. I eventually taught him some wrestling and he taught me some Judo throws. He did get even with me. He started a Judo team and we had a match against the local Airforce base. He put me against a brown belt and I promptly got tossed around. As I was getting choked out I was looking at him, like OK what the hell am I supposed to do now, die? He was laughing his ass off because he never told me how to tap out. Whenever you're going against a good grappler you can't let him close. He'll put his chin down and maybe take a couple of shots coming in, if you don't take him out then, you'll be in a world of hurt. Of course this is just my opinion.

[les paul]

Shooter
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 1970
Location:
Posts: 241
Phantom Menace, c'mon man...help a brother out.

Nice to see people evolving toward a broader view of TCC's potential. When I started broaching these ideas on KFO more than a year ago, I had to apprise the legends here like Black Jack and Knifefighter, et al, of TCC's versatility. Lots of IMA peeps were as opposed to what I've been doing with TCC as those guys were in their refusal to acknowledge the possibilities. Now they have no choice...they gotta recognize! HA!


Response:

It's also nice to see people who understand the potential of internal arts.

Although, I would say that your view of Taijiquan isn't new, more like correct would be a better description.

Reminds me of some of those old historic stories of Chinese wrestlers locking hands with Taiji boxers and admitting defeat after little contact.

I think the actual truth in some of those stories probably involved a whole lot of contact by both parties.

Tajiquan can be very nasty and lethal martial art.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The story of the Taiji master and the wrestler was about Chen Fake and Shen Shan. They were introduced at a martial arts contest in Beijing. Shen Shan asked what a Taiji player would do against a wrestler and Chen is reported to have said "Can one always choose his enemy?" Chen then said while he did not know wrestling he had watched it and so joined with Shen Shan's arms in the usual way for Shuai Jiao matches. As soon as they touched Shen Shan released his grip and they laughed. At the time no one knew they had actually contested. Two days later Shen Shan showed up to honour Chen with gifts and related that as soon as they had touched his feet were frozen to the ground and he could not move.

Hong Junshen told this story and he was an eye witness.

[les paul]

Yea, I remember reading that!

That account is probably one of the more well known out side mainland China.

There are many more that have the same theme with all internal styles.

I don't have that much of a problem with wrestlers (using xingyiquan, although anyone who has met me tell's me I'm well grounded in Chin-na)

The animals have a fair amount of leverage based attacks etc.

But I think Taiji is based even more on this (or can be)

This theme points to many misconceptions by the novice.

That is misconceptions like "taiji can't defend against a wrestlers."

My knowledge of Taijiquan is less than my Xingyi, however, I imagine a well skilled person in the use of push hands and Chin-na (as all highly skilled Taiji men are) would pose a problem to many wrestlers.

I think a greco roman wrestler would be a great sparring partner for cross training someone's taijiquan. (or Xingyi for that matter)

I love sparring with wrestlers etc (it opens your eyes to what you can do with your style in that area )

Sometimes you get those jujitsu neophytes on this news group who don't have very high views of what people do here.

It's to bad because there is a lot to the internal arts.

[Leimeng]

~Hsing I and Bagua both contain numerous throws, joint locks, and other sort of nifty close quarters fighting techniques.
~Learning the general principles associated the internal arts and diligent practice of the exercises, changes, and two man drills should provided a very good foundation for dealing with a grappler.
~I have alwas been under the impression that we (at least in my training environment,) have been training for the possibility of dealing with a grappler.
~The internal arts as a whole possess the tools neccessary to deal with the person that feels the need to take it to the ground. ~With this in mind, we need to just start to practicing and training like we would fight.
~Did any of that make sense?


Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

[circle_walker]

I'm new here, but this seems like a facinating topic. I think everyone makes many good points. I first want to admit that I am going to largely by talking out of my @$$ here, as I am still very new to the internal arts. However, I just wanted to contribute an observation. While looking at an internal website: www.blacktaoist.com, I saw an individual use an outside single palm change to avoid being pushed down to some subway tracks. The movement I had been taught before, but seeing that application opened my mind up alot. I was instantly reminded of the Mexican matdores' circling to avoid a charging bull. I don't think most grapplers, or most m/a s for that matter will be as fast or as powerful as a charging bull. Now a lessthanbeleivable but nonetheless true testimonial, also involving a bull. My mother in her fourties was charged by a young(not full grown, but by no means harmless)bull. She was trapped in a cattle pen eith the bull between her and the door. She had nowhere to run to. The animal charged her and she punched it right between the eyes. The bull dropped to it's knees it's tongue rolled out of it's mouth, and then it fell over. It was knocked unconcious, and later recovered. My mom's hand was red and swollen for 3 days after. I know this sounds unbeleivable, but it did happen. She has no m/a training, but almost supernatural instincts that I have seen her demonstrate in a fight a few times. Aside from this sounding like a load from the aforementioned bull, I just wanted to illistrate how a well placed strike whether luck or skill; can stop a charging opponent. Reguardless of size, or apparently even species. I appologize if this sounds strange, and I hope that this insight provides more than comic releif.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Respect to your Mom circle_walker. Punched out a bull, awesome!