Southern Fist the best? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-11-2001, 06:45 AM

CPS: "Southern STYLES were used in the Chinese army."

Ego: "Occasionally the northern armies need cannon fodder or that the peasant population has gotten too big. that is the only way sourthern knugfu found itseld in the army. But we all know that those southerners can't fight and should not be considered as military people"

CPS: "Southern STYLES are not kept secret. (Only some frauds who's southern gungfu is bad do that with nice stories)"

Ego:" From your defination, Pak Mei, Southern Mantis, Pak Hok Pai and many others are frauds - as it is in their schools to keep things secret."

CPS: "Both Southern and Northern styles have lion dance."

Ego:" Northern Schools which have had undue influence from the South may have lion dance. But these ( eg. Ching Mo association) are well known for their Chinese culture and heritage rather than fighting abilities."

CPS: "Gimmicky tricks. HAve you ever seen Southern Styles or are you confusing Southern Styles and modern wushu?"

Ego:" Yes I have seen many southern styles. I am an instructor in Southern Praying mantis and I know it is crap"

CPS: "Southern STYLES do work. Maybe you have just seen/met the wrong people?"

Ego: "Sure they work but not as well as northern styles"

CPS:"Every styles has its advantages and disadvantages."

Ego:"Agreed. Southern styles are not as well tested in combat".

CPS:" Doesn't a ? mean anything? So did I claim anything? Things aren't what they look like (see the link)"

Ego:"I think you're getting all confused. Are you high on drugs?"

Maximus Materialize!

WuMan

05-11-2001, 07:26 AM

WHY YOU GAY **** GRANDMA'S MA FOOLSHINESS !!

CPS

05-11-2001, 07:54 AM

Ego:"I think you're getting all confused. Are you high on drugs?"

CPS:"No, only some stupid foreign tourist come to the Netherlands/Amsterdam for soft drugs - persons like you".

Ego:" Yes I have seen many southern styles. I am an instructor in Southern Praying mantis and I know it is crap"

CPS:"That you're lowsy in kungfu doesn't mean Southern styles are bad."

Ego:" From your defination, Pak Mei, Southern Mantis, Pak Hok Pai and many others are frauds - as it is in their schools to keep things secret."

CPS:"Don't agree. In Hong Kong people are very happy to teach you styles like that.
Maybe the people just didn't want to show you, because you're an idiot.

And that is a claim. ;)

bean curd

05-11-2001, 08:10 AM

hi cps,

now everyone knows my name haha,

take care

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-12-2001, 03:24 PM

CPS:"No, only some stupid foreign tourist come to the Netherlands/Amsterdam for soft drugs - persons
like you".

Ego:"It is a documented fact that Netherlands / Amsterdam liberal drug laws has resulted in a high proportion of drug use by the local population."

CPS:"That you're lowsy in kungfu doesn't mean Southern styles are bad."

Ego:"It doesn't mean that Southern Kung Fu is good either. What I've said still holds true."

CPS:"Don't agree. In Hong Kong people are very happy to teach you styles like that. Maybe the people just didn't want to show you, because you're an idiot.

Ego:" Hong Kong Kung fu is geared for the movie industry. You can learn snake than eagle and finally snake vs eagle etc. Southern Kung fu is all a shonky high wire act."

Maximus Materialize!

BIU JI

05-12-2001, 04:04 PM

Well I would say that southern styles are the best but I'm biased, I study a southern art.

WenJin

05-12-2001, 04:12 PM

Southern us great, direct and to the point. Northern is good but takes too long to make good fighters. Southern fighters are viscous, ferocious and don't waste time doing fancy moves.

NorthernMantis

05-12-2001, 08:10 PM

Ego-

shouldn't you be arguing with Rolls showing him that kung fu does work?I mean if your going to TROLL then do it for a good cause.

Remember, use your trolling powers for good and not for evil.Go ahead show Rolls what kung fu is made of. :D

"Always be ready"

[This message was edited by NorthernMantis on 05-13-01 at 11:17 AM.]

joedoe

05-13-2001, 02:57 AM

How come you haven't banned Ego? You were happy to lock up threads and kick others off, why do you let a troll like Ego continue on the board?

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

doug maverick

05-13-2001, 05:41 PM

who the hell told you southern style was not used on in the millitary wong fei hung trained the army, so did the founder of jow gar, so did many wing chun masters, where do you get your info you sound like a person who talks but can't fight, southern style is the best for short range fighting, i live in new york city and get into alot of scraps where i live at, and it's always more then one they always have some kind of weapon (one guy even fought me with a fan!) my friend he studies under monk shi yan ming, and yes the kung fu is real no wushu or anything like that and he's been with him for 4 years and he's won all san shou tournaments and all that good stuff but when we were in the bronx visiting some friend like we do every day, he decided he wanted to cash his check it was 10:00pm and the only place that was open was a check cashing place in the housing projects in soudview, well when we crossed the bridge i noticed some kids were following us, but at first i thought i was being parraniod and kept walking. After we got out of the check place i seen them again but when saw them the first time there was 8 guys this time there was for i told my friend to get ready we might have to fight(note:if anyone from the bronx reads this you know that there is only three ways to get across the soundview bridge and we were on the elder av bridge whitch means that was our only way over) he started sweating and walking quikly i told him there was no point in trying to run there might be four other guys waiting at the bridge so dead the issue of running then i started to look around for a weapon but it was friday and all the trash was off the street(or so i thought)as we got to the bridge i was surprrised to see know one on the bridge then all of a sudden four guys come running across the bridge the other four guys were right in back of us four guys quikly sorrounded me and four him, won guys was screaming "you trying to play me you tryign to play me" (i don't what he was talking about) i told him to be easy. then he said "turn around" and i of course said know (oh and this was the guy wit the fan) i look to my left and my friend the fighter the northern style guy was shaking like a leaf thats when WAM!!!!!!! i was cracked on my shoulder by the fan then he tryed to crack me again but my forearm blocked it the guy (who was short about 5'6 5'7 and built like a house ) looked surprised that i took the hit on my forearm and had bo injury ( da samm sing and da lok sing ETC. also kiu sao training builds your forearms to resist pain) then using a whipping motion i learned from tai chi i took the fan and using it like a staff cracked the guy and one of his people walked up to the other guys (who buy now were beating the crap out of my friend) cracked one of them graped my friend and we started to walk fast across the bridge (my friend said his leg hurt or else we would have ran like the wind) then the guys started throwing bottles and we had now choice but to run as fast as we can witch wasent really fats like i said my friend hurt his leg.(god must have been with us that night cause not one bottle touched us but they almost did...........thank you god.......)
as we got across the brigde a friend of my hurt friend (who was a drug dealer and a rael friend) ran after the guys with a gun when he saw them after use the guys turned into track stars when they seen the gun and ran into the pj's. after my friend had to go to the hospital his hurt leg turned into a twisted ankle and fractured shin, also a torn muscle, like i said he trained every day for 2 hour for four years and had all of these bull crap injuries and the guys couldnt have beat him hard enouth it was only a few secounds. i mean he's a shaolin guy and i'm positive they some kind of conditioning. after his leg healed and he got the okay to train he left shi yan ming's school and is now looking for a good southern schools, even i now train in the internal arts (xing yi and bagua) for the last year and a have it was my southern style traing that got me out of there. so ego do some research cause even thou all style are equal northern style has no place in the city may be where your from but not here does hi kicks will get you hurt or even worse. study be for you say anything.

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-14-2001, 05:24 PM

I don't know what era wong fei hung was from, but in the olden days the chinese army was based on having superior numbers. Southern stylist might have made good cannon fodder with the feriocity in the attacks. Sure heaps of them might have got killed but it would have probably slowed the enemy down for the xing'I types to take tem out with ease. Just look at CLF, the large swinging arm movements are very very basic. No doubt the hits could be devastating if it makes contact, but you're also opening yourself up to being smacked around. It's not based on strategy as such.

I do not doubt your ability as a fighter and highly skillful with a fan. I've seen kung fu movies where the preferred weapon of some heros is a fan. maybe what I see on the screens is true afterall. Okies enough of that. So you smacked 1 guy while your Northern friend took the heat. That's when you got the chance to smack the other guy - and both of you ran. Ok kung fu masters 2 NY punks 0. From what i understand it was all a matter of team work.

But what really turned the tide was when your other friend brought out a guy. That got the rest of the 6 guys running. Ok so the score is now Kung fu masters 2, punks 0, guy with gun 6.

I had incidents. Punk have hassled me and I've given them my wallets. I've been buying quite a few wallets. It's cheaper than paying for KF classes though.

Maximus Materialize!

doug maverick

05-15-2001, 05:07 AM

okay you made a point but you see i study xing yi
now as a wrote in my past reply. but you see i studied hung gar,black tiger and dragon style,also wing chun, these in my opinion the best southern martial arts has to offer screw mantis it may have some effectiveness, but mantis guys really are to flashy, still ounce i started studing the internal ma's i really forgot about all the external ma's so it really doesn't matter,
when i first read your post i doudt you were an ass now i kind think your cool, but one question if you thought mantis was so bad why the hell did you waist so much time on it. oh and wong fei hung was the guy who help liberate china and trained the army and he was a famous hung gar master. they made over 150 movies about him.

Kung Lek

05-15-2001, 06:31 AM

Hi-

Abandit- I am not a moderator on the southern chinese kung fu forum, and even so, I am a moderator and cannot ban anyone.

I'd like to make a comment about Wong Fei Hung from peacemakers post.

Wong Fei Hung was indeed probably the most well known and famous Hung Gar master who lived. Especially to the chinese who have indeed told and retold his story over the years since his passing (and even legends during his lifetime).

He did not so much "liberate" china as he did make the people aware of their own will. And through his Kung Fu he cemented the idea of personal strength in all who encountered him and moreso from those who were his students and peers.

In particular his student Lam Tsai Wing (Lam Saiwing) was of geat skill by all accounts and contributed quite a lot to the system which had been built upon previously by Wong Fei Hung.
These two, master(master Wong) and student(master Lam) made some of the greatest innovations within the practice of Hung Gar Kung Fu.

peace

Kung Lek

bean curd

05-15-2001, 10:52 AM

ego, you have no clue on what you are talking about.

your comments on choi li fut alone show your complete ignorance on these matters, and your comments on xing yi confirm this.

regarding fighting in china, and picking any dynasty, you show no understanding.

pure and simply put, i am saying your are PURE AND SIMPLE!!!!!

mysteri

05-16-2001, 12:36 AM

To anyone ignorant enough to believe that southern style gung fu is not effective or even as, if not more, effective than northern style kung fu doesn't deserve to be called a kung fu practicioner. Of course as with anything, there are going to be bad apples in the bin.( This holds to be self-evident in many governments e.g.) So of course there are going to be styles of martial arts that are watered down from its original form. If a northern style master teaches a student martial arts for years and that student decides to open a school(regardless of his masters feelings) and that instructor teaches poorly, his students will learn poor techniques. Should that style or even the first master's ability be based on that one bad instructor? In short, one who has learned poorly has no right to criticize an entire system based on the teachings of one instructor.

Juggler

05-16-2001, 01:17 PM

Ego is a fraud.

He has told more lies on this board than can be calculated by a supercomputer.

He is NOT a Southern Mantis instructor!

If you don't reply to him, he will get bored, and make himself into a bigger moron than he is now (if that is indeed possible).

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-16-2001, 03:53 PM

Peacemaker,

To set the records of history straight, Wong Fei Hung was actually a small time rebel who did enough to make a name for himself amongst the peasant but not enough to get his head chopped off by the local Megistrate (who was skilled in Northern Kung Fu). Wong wasn't a dumb @ss peasant and was actually quite a smart guy and learned the lessons from those Fuikken monks who thought their kung fu was so great and had their temple burned down by the Northern Masters. In fact, the Megistrate and Wong became good friends. With the little trouble that Wong caused, the Megistrate was able to call on the central government for more resources to "hunt down" the rebel. The little good that Wong do made him a local hero and a superstar to the local chics.

Sure some soldiers from the megistrate got killed and so did a few of Wong's merry men. But the two leaders were astute politicians and even staged afew combats of their own.

Anyway the friendship ended when the megistrate discovered that Wong was sleeping with his wife. And indeirectly Wong did kill the Megistrate by causing him to have a heart attack as a result of his actions. Wong later discovered that the Megistrate was sexually impotent and in this way he liberated China. (The name of the Megistrate's wife was China).

That was Wong's greatest conquest

Maximus Materialize!

MaFuYee

05-16-2001, 04:16 PM

peacemaker,
you've got some viscious run on sentances!

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Kung Lek

05-16-2001, 04:31 PM

Hi-

Actually, legend has it that the monks of the southern temple destroyed the temple themselves as a kind of "scorched earth policy".

It is still to this day a debateable issue as to whether or not an actual temple in Fukien existed.

There is said to be ruins and of course there is the new southern temple built by the prc to manage the interest of martial arts of shaolin and how the northern temple is full to the limit.

I think that the White Horse temple in Putian would be able to furnish fairly sound information on the reality of the southern Shaolin temple because it was there at the alleged time of the southern temples existance and it is still there today.

The buddhist martial arts of the south were derived from the buddhist martial arts of the north.
There are differences in techniques and styles but they share the same root. Shaolin Temple at Song Shan in Henan is the starting point for the codification and systemization of buddhist martial arts in and out of China.

It is also worthy to note that martial arts as "systems" were practiced in China before the existance of the Shaolin Temple, but that the Shaolin Temple was the greatest in maintaining and preserving many arts both buddhist and indigenous.

It was "THE" place to learn Kung Fu in it's heyday and to many people it still is, even though _most_ of the offerings are contemporary wu shu of the prc.

peace

Kung Lek

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-16-2001, 04:44 PM

I'm not a fraud and I'm not a troll.

Maximus Materialize!

mysteri

05-16-2001, 05:51 PM

Everyone in this forum knows that the only true way to prove a point about combat is through combat. This is not personal challenge, because i wouldn't want to embarass you that bad. I simply want you to prove verbally through your "knowledge" of southern kung fu what techniques you think are crap. most of the northern style practioners that i've sparred fight similar to taekwondo practicioners. they throw a lot of fast, simultaneous, and sometimes even strong kicks. though these kicks generally lacked root and stability and i constantly have to restrain myself from making the simplest twist of my rooted self and iron bridge hands in order not to break their legs. a constant struggle for me. also, i must restrain myself when i simply use my swift, rooted stepping skills to avoid these long ranges kicks and punches because once i get to the origins of these attacks(ie. the hips and shoulders) and i am on the inside, i have to restrain myself from breaking their ribs because their not very skilled in close range combat. please don't think that i'm insulting northern style kung fu practioners because 1/3 of my style is northern shaolin, but these are simply my experiences while studying my southern style of jow ga. now that i've given you a testament of my truth, i ask you to respond in some way that proves that northern style kung fu is so superior to southern style kung fu. we are all waiting, the talk is becoming stale.

"dum spiro, spero.."(while i breath, i hope)

South Paw

05-16-2001, 07:14 PM

Kung Lek wrote:
"It is still to this day a debateable issue as to whether or not an actual temple in Fukien existed.

There is said to be ruins and of course there is the new southern temple built by the prc to manage the interest of martial arts of shaolin and how the northern temple is full to the limit.

I think that the White Horse temple in Putian would be able to furnish fairly sound information on the reality of the southern Shaolin temple because it was there at the alleged time of the southern temples existance and it is still there today."

Interesting reading would be the following book:
Development and decline of Fukien Province in the 17th and 18th Centuries
(edited by) E.B. Vermeer
Sinica Leidensia...vol. XXII
Publisher: E.J. Brill - Leiden/New York/Cologne - 1990
ISBN 9004091718

One of the articles in this book is 'The decadence of Buddhist temples in Fu-chien in late Ming and early Ching'by Tien Ju-K'ang.

In P'u-t'ien (Putian) county there were 14 Buddhist temples (1503) against 3 Taoist temples. There was a total of 191 Buddhist temples and 311 Taoist temples in Fukien in the period 1503 - ca. 1619.
After 1620, due to repression under the ardent Taoist emperor Shih-tsung Buddhist temples were in a pitiable state all over the country.
The compulsory evacuation of the residents on the south east coast in the years 1661 to 1668 led to the total ruin of a great number of remaining temples in the coastal regions.
The resistance against the Ching and the authorities lasted longer in Fukien.

Although the book s not mentioning a Shaolin Temple, it describes vividly the people of Fukien, live in the temples, the decline of those temples and the rebellion against the Ching.
Seems that there is much more material out there then we can imagine.

Probably the southern Shaolin temple was not even mentioned by this name. The monks that went from the Henan Shaolin temple more likely sought refuge in another Chan Buddhist temple in Fukien where they were amongst brothers. A temple with a different name, but where they could practice there Shaolin Martial Arts.

A southern Shaolin temple is much referred to by martial arts in the provinces of Guangdong and Fujian (Fukien), which we can also use as some sort of proof of the existence of such a temple in Fukien. Martial arts that have a history in common but are so different in their practises.

Southern martial arts are much more refined then their northern (Shaolin) counterparts. Just think of the more intricate footwork that is used in southern martial arts.
In northern martial arts, and I'm talking about traditional Shaolin derivatives, they mostly perform there forms in straight lines. When I visited the Shaolin temple in 1983 with a friend, we were invited by the local Shaolin school in Deng Feng. Not a commercial modern Shaolin Wushu school but a traditional Shaolin school. Pure straight forward Shaolin as it used to be, and performance in straight lines. Well we showed them the real southern Shaolin: Hung Gar. The whole school and a lot of spectators watching this north-south exchange applauded our forms, that included the famous 'tiger crane double form'.
I still have this exchange on super 8 film and a lot of pictures. Maybe I should put this on the web.

South Paw

South Paw

05-16-2001, 07:41 PM

There is also a post on the Shaolin Forum about the 5 animals, in which is mentioned the style Wu Xing Ba Fa Quan (5 Animals 8 Methods, which is a part of Da Jing Gang Quan ( A system of northern Shaolin ).

They also have use of the 5 animals as in Hung Gar.
This style has more in common with Hung Gar as it also uses sounds and emotions, for example in their form 'Xi Nu Ai Le Quan', the '4 emotion Fist'.

South Paw

dunbarj01

05-17-2001, 01:46 AM

Ego,

Yes, you are.

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-18-2001, 04:52 AM

Mysteri,

I'm very surprised that you said that most of the Northern Stylist you've fought were like Tae Kwan Do. If that's your experience, then I won't be surprised that peasant kung fu is sufficient to take them out. Tae Kwon Do (the sports version which is most common) is about point scoring, so if you play outside those rules, you'll have a good chance of winning.

This would also suggest that you have a poor knowledge of Northern Kungfu. Good fighting styles like Hsing I, Piq Gua, Mantis etc don't emphasis on high kicks. The styles deal well with medium to short range - hence the large arm movements involved with throwing actions. So you can safely assume that if you come up with a Northern styles ( not some tae know do look a like), you could be fighting point blank toe to toe, body to body. Northern stylist are very comfortable and love fighting at this range.

As for mobility, Northerners emphasis a lot on angling. Speaking on say 8 step mantis or 6 harmonies, there is a lot of twisting to change one's direction of attack and at close range, they use these movements to leg trap or roll with the punch so to speak. Same concepts applied in Ba Gua. As for 7*PM, people learn angling and strategy very early on in the training program - a lot of strategic insersions and depending on the response, the mantis practitioner can at all times modify the strategy. A major advantage of Northern systems is the generalised format undepinning its theories compared to the South.

In terms of Southern systems like Wing Chun, sure it has short punches, but that is still considered to be medium range in the Northern context. Foot work in South systems is very ridgit compared to the North. - That's particular the case for Wing Chun and Southern Mantis. But I agree, Southern sytles train for strong stances - and it would be foolish to throw something like a tornado kick at a southern practitioner. I guess you could have easily done what you described in your ealier post - but that's a no brainer. Any fool could have done the same!

Southern styles have a strong emphasis on breaking - like break the ribs, break a leg, break this break that. These skills are useless in a real fight and the training of these only results in injury to yourself.

If you try to break something, your connection to the target will be "Non-analytic" at the moment of impact. Easy to do with a stationary target, but not when the target is moving. That is a major flaw with southern kung fu. The solution space is very narrow.

As for the North, they try to connect at a tangent and discover as much about the "Vectors" of the opposing system. With this information, it is flitered through the gneralized theories, giving an out put of the appropriate course of action to the northern practitioner. The training program of northern systems is designed to make this process higly automated with a healthy does of creativity in "solving the problem". The design of the solution also is very instinctive.

So yes, Northern systems are stylish in the cold efficiency at disposing opponents but not the fancyful high kicks.

I hope this gives you a better perspective on how your kung fu rates against the Northern systems.

Maximus Materialize!

doug maverick

05-18-2001, 07:24 AM

we are talking about external gung fu not xing yi tai chi or bai gua(witch i study now) just because your kung fu no good doesn't mean you should rag on other southern styles, i remmeber a story in sun lu tang's book about xing yi that talked about a southerner beating all of ching ting hua's students except for sun lu tang. so ah dude i really don't think southern gung fu is that bad. i wonder what bad things you have to say about hung gar.

bean curd

05-18-2001, 01:22 PM

ego,

your examples of northern and southern are so out of wack its a wonder you actually understand what you wrote.

to say that north has one thing and south has another shows a complete ignorance of either concepts.

i must have missed what you do, so can you tell me what style you play if any??

also why don't you go into specifics instead of being so general on your comments on north and south.

also do you practice xing yi, from your comments just written you don't have a clue on this style.

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-18-2001, 03:30 PM

Peacemaker,

That post was in response to Mysteri about some examples between Northern & Southern kung fu. I don't think of things as either being internal or external. I look more for efficiency and whether the training program is practicle in improving the students ability to fight. The "robustness" of the system is important because real fights can happen at any place any time. I've got nothing bad to say of Hung Gar or any style for that matter. What I say is from my observation.

Beancurd,

I'm sorry if it didn't make much sense. i guess I explian things a little unorthodoxly. Ok I tend to see fights as a problem with many dimensions. For a multi-dimension problem (in mathemathics) usually analytic solutions have a higher chance of breaking down. But if you use certain numerical methods the solutions would be stable. Mathemathical modelling is my background and I guess the Northern systems (if taught correctly) is conceptually consistent with how I would build and optimise a numerical model.

Maximus Materialize!

mysteri

05-18-2001, 08:25 PM

I will not pretend that i'm not the slightest bit impressed by your knowledge of kung fu. i am even more impressed how you can go deep enough to relate mathematics into kung fu, which not many people can do or even understand, though i understood every bit of waht you said in your reply. do not get me wrong, i'm not here to bash you. it is just when you try to tell a southern stylist that his kung fu is inferior, he cannot help but to be offended. i will also not pretend that i have such a great knowledge of northern kung fu styles because i don't. again, i'm just expressing my observations and experiences. i am familiar with hsing-i, pi qua, and mantis and i know that they do not emphasize kicks. hsing-i alone has a very powerful close range game as well as pi qua. i know most northern mantis styles emphasize stepping and trapping. but once again, as i have made a general statement about northern styles, i am simply reiterating the way your comments came across to me. it's my belief that you made your comments without much knowledge of southern kung fu styles in the latter stages of training. as with jow ga, if you're familiar with it, it consists of only the most practical and effective techniques of hung ga, choy ga and bak sil lum. you seem to know about hung ga. the choy family style (not choy li fut) is known for its swift, complex footwork and kicking/leg techniques. it's also well know for it's grappling and groundfighting. in the early stages of my training, stepping was the basis from which everything else followed. if you don't have good stepping/mobility, then it will reflect negatively on your techniques. that is why the founder of jow ga searched to learn another style because hung ga halted much of his mobility in order to perform the techniques properly. also in the beginning of my training, firm yet soft bridge hands were emphasized. (like silk outside, like iron inside) so within a short amount of time in my system, one may be able to handle themself quite comfortable in a ypical street scenario. we actually have modified bridge hands from mantis which you know will control the opponent at all times and may easily turn into grappling, locking, and throwing techniques. i simply dropped a little bit of knowledge on you in case you didn't know that about my southern style. i will not disagree with you that some southern styles may seem crappy, but i could also name some northern styles which i can say are, too. if you know anything about my style, especially any major weaknesses, please let me know. otherwise i'm very comfortable and confident fighting any style with my diverse jow ga style. pax vobiscum.

bean curd

05-19-2001, 03:41 AM

ego,

okay you like maths i like food, so i'll go with the food scenario, as they say in chinese, "live to eat, not eat to live".

your persception of the validity of north to south, i feel is askew, to some degree you are looking at them from an analytical perspective, nothing wrong with that, but it can blinker your perspective.

there was a eagle claw player many many years ago that used this perspective to explain the needs and usage of the various styles in gung fu.

"martial arts is like a smorgasboard, there is much food on the table, yet at different times in life, ones tastes change. to only look at what they like at that particular time is to miss the depth and value of each and every art."

"some will love a type of food always, others will change their taste quite often, while others will grow to appreciate the exotic foods, it is here that the knowldege, depth and understanding of their chosen art and that of others will become more appreciated"

"there is a basic requirement of the body to live, these basic foods are essential to a good, strong, healthy body, to forget these foods will only be detremental to the player"

he does go on, but i am sure you understand where i am coming from and the points trying to be expressed.

the main point though, is just because one art looks from any perspective to be superior mearly because it has a university perspective, you undermine and give no respect to the junior schooling you first had.

it is true that some southern styles may appear basic, however from an external perspective of xing yi alone it looks very novice, yet the depth of the art is complicated, this goes for any art be it from the south or the north.

maybe you should put the math books down, and go have a really good yum cha, it may change your perspective

[This message was edited by bean curd on 05-19-01 at 07:09 PM.]

NorthernMantis

05-19-2001, 04:09 AM

Ego-
shouldn't you be arguing with Rolls showing him that kung fu does work?I mean if your going to argue then do it for a good cause(no offense intened).

Remember, use your trolling powers for good and not for evil.Go ahead show Rolls what kung fu is made of.

"Always be ready"

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-19-2001, 02:57 PM

Guy's I've heard of the name "Rolls" being mentioned. Who is it? why should i be speaking to that person? Although I'll be happy to discuss all matters of kung fu with Rolls.

I am not a troll.

As for food, I enjoy yum cha, but i would consider a smogersboard of yummies to be an unnecessary luxury in battle. I'll be content with basic neutrients like protene, carbohydrates, water, salt etc. it wouldn't matter if i have 36 different types of chinese tea or water in my canteen.

Maximus Materialize!

NorthernMantis

05-19-2001, 09:33 PM

Basically Rolls is a troll who says that kung fu is full of crapp and that even tkd is better than kung fu (no offense to tkd people).He thinks it's a good type of dance but not good for self defense.

He's made several challenges ,with no type of any kung fu knowledge comparing it to karate,and never met up to the challenge,one of those being to a reputable kung fu school.He goes by the name of Ralek now.

Sounds like you would be a good candidate to educate our ignorant friend.:D

"Always be ready"

[This message was edited by NorthernMantis on 05-20-01 at 12:40 PM.]

bean curd

05-20-2001, 08:08 AM

well ego, like i first thought, there really isn't much point to getting a constructive discussion out of you, you have a very limited perspective.

as for basic food in battle, you don't, like gung fu have a clue on this, i'll tell you one thing you should put in your pocket and it's this,
in battle even the basics of food are a real luxury, LRP'S can be the worst tasting thing, but when you have them, it makes you feel like a king, especially when you haven't eaten for sometime.

it's like you perspective on gung fu, totally theoretical with no foundation at all!!!

as the an old boxing cannon says "you start with a ma and a kuen, at the end of your lifetime, it is this ma a kuen you will use, eveything else was just part of the journey!!"

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-20-2001, 12:44 PM

Northern Mantis,

Ok so I gather Rolls believes that kung fu is crap. But does that make him a troll? It is as much for some people on this forum to understand that others may have differing views as much as it is for them to know the effectiveness of good kung fu. I have seen many shoddy kung fu classes in my time and i can fully understand why some people perceive that kung fu is crap. I guess education goes both ways!

Bean Curd

i think you missed my point. What I'm saying is that the different types of food can be summerized into a few basic food groups. Just like it doesn't matter if you hit someone with a tiger claw, dragon claw, leapord paw, pheonix eye fiest and how ever number of hand configurations there are.

what matters is the basic strategies of combat. to some extent muey thai and western boxing covers them. I'm not saying that kung fu fights like boxing - in fact you don't because boxing is bound by a set of rules - kingfu's not. However, the basics like angling, timing, fient etc are common to all northern styles which is also apparent in "sports" combat like boxing.

Because the human body can only move in finite ways, there must be a set of generalized concepts that must be developed for good kung fu. That's why i disagree with the smogersboard concept. The objective of good kung fu is more simple that you make it out to be.

whereas, southern styles focus more on an "aspect" of combat. For example with Wing Chun, practitioners stick quite religiously to the "gate" theory. This would work in some instances, but it's useless if your opponent goes ape on you or use curved punches.

Southern sytles are not very adaptable in in my language non robust.

Maximus Materialize!

NorthernMantis

05-21-2001, 12:57 AM

The guy challenged Tai Yim.No respect whatso ever.

"Always be ready"

TAO YIN

05-21-2001, 03:36 AM

What?????

Eggo what the hell are you talking about? You said

"What Im saying is that the different types of food can be summarized into a few food groups. just like it doesn't matter if you hit someone with a tiger claw, dragon claw, leopard paw, pheonix eye fiest, and how ever number of hand configurations there are."

In the next paragraph, you said that the basic strategies like angling, timing, and feinting are really what matters???????????

I don't know why I am bothering but WAKE UP!!!!! Every one of the southern techniques you mentioned are basic, effective, deadly, etc! They can all be used as a BASIC STRATEGY of attack. See its like this, you can hit AT me with five different attacks, and all I have to do is pierce you once in the eye with a leopard paw or phoenix eye fist.

Another basic could be that you could kick and punch as hard at my head, torso, or legs as you wanted and all I have to do is get through your guard, Tiger Claw your neck with my left hand, dragon claw your skull with my right, and drop the horse all in one. In BASIC terms you attack AT me, I rush at you like a scared tiger, and then I claw, twist, and snap your neck apart while dropping to the floor. Nah, I would probably just tiger claw your neck and drop the horse, no need to use dragon claw.

If you are a Sifu of Southern Mantis you should be able to use it. If you are a Sifu of Southern Mantis you should understand that it uses angling, timing, and feinting. THESE ARE BASIC FIGHTING CONCEPTS REMEMBER! ALL SYSTEMS HAVE THIS! Are you that Kelvin dude??

Even though this is totally stupid, you tell me one northern stylist that beat Chun Lai Cheung, Lam Yui Gwai, oh nevermind I am not going to sit here and list names. EGO YOU KNOW S***. :p

TAO YIN :D

"With great power, be still"

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-21-2001, 04:16 PM

victory would be so much easier.

Tao Yin,

Come on! hand configurtation cannot be described as a basic technique. Do you know it's verty difficult to ok someone in the eyes or break their necks - unless they are standing still or their one of the 3 stooges!

You've basically agreed with my point that Southern Kung fu techniques have limited applications - very specific in their application. Breaking something by striking it is non-analytic and I've expounded on the problems of that in the last post!

But you're on the money of what I would have done when I had practiced kung fu. That is to throw multiple hits at the target. eventually some will get through and those that don't will return valuable information about the "vectors" pertaining to the target. It'll be so funny seeing the opponent changing strategy from a leapord fist, then to a tiger claw, oh no wait maybe a dragon claw or was it a crane beak while getting pulverized by northern kung fu.

It would be very funny indeed. Don't you think?

Maximus Materialize!

mysteri

05-21-2001, 10:06 PM

like you said, these techniques like the tiger claw, leopard paw, dragon claw, crane beak.. may all be ineffective in a fight... but when the southern stylist is properly trained, which many schools may not emphasize as they allow the average student to pass onto the next form, then of course these techniques automatically become obselete in a modern street fight. what about irom palm? a techniques which is in most southern systems. iron palm, iron shirt, iron finger.. any of these superior training techniques may kill someone in a modern street fight. so you say that a moving target is hard to hit? of course, i'll give you that. then we must take out any grappling/ chin na techniques of northern kung fu also. so northern styles like hsing-i and pa kua, which are internal styles may also only be useful if the practiconer is properly trained and has developed chi(and the other necessary energies) and sensitivity. what much is left? what else distinguishes northern styles from southern styles? you tell me this "superior strategy" of the north which makes northern styles so inferior because i've yet to be defeated by a northern stylist and my victories have been rather easy. so maybe the nothern styles you describe are overrated, of are only useful in the hands of a seasoned practiconer... as my point stands for southern styles... as my point stands for ANY martial system.

while i breathe, i hope..

TAO YIN

05-22-2001, 05:42 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!LOLLOLLOLLOL!!!

Eggo you really do know S***. Yes I can say that all of those hand configurations are basic because all you are doing is JUST THAT, configurating your hand! Now, to use any of those techniques you must condition them and train them properly. Anyway, Yes I can say that a tiger claw is just as basic as any punch. BASICALLY, with a punch you are throwing your fist at a moving opponent. BASICALLY, with a tiger claw you are throwing your hand out to grab the moving opponent. Now since you are slow I must put an emphasis on the word BASICALLY because I am not talking about tiger claw combos or anything of the sort.

By the way, in my earlier post I wasn't changing strategies. It was 2 different strategies that both work separately. Now pay attention! I realize you have a hard time understanding what others say but I am going to make this real simple for you to understand.

1st attack-You kick, punch, sweep, and whatever else at me. Realizing that most of those hits are going to make contact, I block the best I possibly can and then thrust my left fingers into your eye, throat, temple, etc. At the same time I land at least one phoenix eye somewhere right about your sternum.

Why does 1st attack work-Because you have set yourself up by throwing too many non-targeted attacks. YOU ARE NOT ATTACKING FOR MY CENTERLINE! Therefore, I am using basic aggressive footwork, charging and attacking you the whole time you are attacking. Sooner or later I will get inside your centerline! It doesn't matter how many attacks you throw either. If we are truly fighting, it doesn't matter if you make contact 10 times because I know that all I have to do is get inside your centerline ONCE and then I can tear up your eyes, OR temple, OR throat, OR nose, OR ears, OR collar bone, Or sternum, etc. A good Northern Fighter knows to not let a Southern Fighter inside the centerline. THE REASON, IF IM INSIDE YOUR CENTERLINE IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR ME TO CONNECT MY ATTACKS BECAUSE I HAVE BROUGHT YOU CLOSER TO ME, THE TARGET IS CLOSER AND MORE ACCESSIBLE!!!!!! Duh Eggo.

From all of your elaborate but idiotic talk all you are really saying is that you WOULD throw aimless punches, kicks, sweeps, attacks, and whatever else in order to land hits SOMEWHERE on the opponent. This is going to do 2 things for you.

1. You are going to be **** tired about 30 seconds into the fight.

2. Most of your attacks are going to be to the outside of the opponent centerline. The attacks that you landed to my head or knees only makes me more angry and aggressive. A lot of good this is going to do you! hahaha

Wait I'm not done.

2nd attack-You throw whatever attacks you possibly can. I rush your CENTERLINE and grab your neck...ok I missed with my left hand so ill use my right. Then I drop to the ground making sure to push forward with whatever grip I have on your neck so as to make sure the back of your head smashes the pavement.

Why does 2nd attack work-Because you do not have enough speed or power to stop me from charging you and grabbing your neck. You threw all of those punches and kicks but they didn't connect with anything but the OUTSIDE of my CENTERLINE.

Eggo, you are only partially right. It is hard to grab an arm or leg and break it because they can move in an array of directions. BUT IT ISN'T HARD TO GRAB THE BOTTOM OF SOMEONES NECK!!! If Im inside your centerline YOU CAN'T MOVE YOUR BODY FAST ENOUGH FOR ME TO NOT GRAB YOUR NECK, OR PIERCE YOUR STERNUM, OR CRACK YOUR TEMPLE, OR RIP YOUR EYES, ETC. The head and torso are always primary targets. They are the targets that are going to be the closest that you are ever going to get to STATIONARY.

And No I don't agree with you. Southern Kung Fu applications are in no way limited. Here is an example. You seem to be interested in Tiger Claw. Well, I can TIGER CLAW, your ankle, groin, nuts, arm pits, neck, wrist, collar bone, eyes, and on and on. And that is just one technique, TIGER CLAW.

It seems to me you would use your Southern Mantis hands with your Northern Mantis legs??????? You are truly an idiot if you think a Southern attack won't work.

I have no idea why I bothered.

TAO YIN :p

[This message was edited by TAO YIN on 05-22-01 at 08:58 PM.]

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-22-2001, 02:52 PM

The techniques you have described rely on the assumption that your opponent's center line remains static in space. That is true for southern systems because of their crappy foot work.

But if you're dealing with something like Ba Gua, the practitioner can shift their center line 180 degrees very rapidly. You;'ll have a hard time chasing them down. If you'rte dealing aganist northern mantis, you'll find the hits coming from all directions. Basically, just as it is not easy to claw someone's throat, neck or eye, you'll be hard pressed chasing down their centerline.

As for striking at the temple or poking an eye, you'll run the risk of breaking your finger on something hard if you miss the target. I didn't expect something so silly from a smart person like you.

Maximus Materialize!

TAO YIN

05-23-2001, 02:10 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Nevermind Eggo!

It is obvious that you either didn't read my post or comprehend it one.

Leggo my Eggo said "the techniques you have described rely on the assumption that your opponent's centerline remains static in space."

Even though I explained this in my post, I will try to explain it to you again. I don't assume that the opponents centerline is static. I WAS SAYING THAT THE OPPONENTS CENTERLINE IS THE CLOSEST THING I'LL GET TO STATIC!!! Do you really not understand this. The centerline is going to be more static than the legs, the legs are usually going to be more static than the hands, BUT OF COURSE THEY WILL ALL BE MOVING. I guess maybe you have a problem understanding how something could be more or less static than something else. What I mean is the centerline isn't going to move around AS MUCH as the opponent's attacks are. Its somewhat like football. If I want to tackle you then my target is your sternum. That is where my eyes are, right at you sternum. If you go to twist your waist I'm just going to slam into the top of your ribs with the helmet. The only valid point you made in your post was about Bagua. And yes I know how Northern Praying Mantis Practitioners fight, attacks from all directions, deceptive footwork, redirecting, etc, etc, blah, blah. Are you stupid enough to believe that Southern Kung Fu doesn't do this.

Then you said "That is true for southern systems and their crappy footwork."

OK I am used to hearing junk like this and it's funny. It is always something like Northern stances and kicks are the best and Southern handwork is the best, or something along those lines. Your statment is total bull****, Southern footwork is crappy, HAHAHAHA!! I can't believe that you really believe this. But I am glad that you believe this. I want you to always think that Fu Bo footwork is not effective. HAHAHA. Let me guess, Dew Tai Ma is also ineffective. HAHAHAHAHA. WAIT WAIT, Biggest joke of all, BUD DIN BATT BAT HAS NO APPLICATION WHATSOEVER TO A FIGHT!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!! :D

I'll tell you what Eggo, you use only climbing hill horse stance and I will only use Bud Din Batt Bat Ma!! Or better yet, lets set it up like this: You use a ninety-degree northern cat stance, and I'll use a Soutern Cat Stance, now from here lets see which one of us can kick (with power) the other first!

Sorry Eggo I won't be chasing them down, I'll already be right where I need to be. And like I said in my earlier post YOU HAVE TO TRAIN THOSE TECHNIQUES PROPERLY. So you don't break your fingers you chump! :p

I still don't understand, why don't you use Southern Mantis Hands with Northern Mantis legs Eggo? You are a Sifu of both right? HAHAHAHA!

Oh by the way, go to the main kung fu forum and post a topic like ATTENTION RALEK or something like that. He is a bjj fan who thinks all kung fu sucks. You should show him just how superior your Northern Mantis is! HAHAHAHA!! Is that 5 star you study? Or is it 7 star now? LOL!

TAO YIN :D

"With great power, be still"

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-23-2001, 03:59 PM

Center line is the most static, depends on what you mean by static. It is possible that the opponent's center line is moving in a different plane to the attacks. Obviously a competent practitioner would be shifting the "soft targets" away from you and and throwing the attacks in your direction.

Sure Southern styles do have some degree of foot work but it's not as effecient as the North. I'm not failiar with the terms you're using in tiger claw. please describe them.

Your statement of using Southern Mantis hands and Northern Mantis legs shows a lack of understanding of either system. The movements are conceptually different and incompetable. Of course Northern Mantis being the superior of the two.

If you're thinking that conditioning will make your strategy work significantly better - I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You cannot avoid the fact that you're trying to strike a very small target that's moving around alot. Put it another way, the most vulnerable targets are also the most well protected. Naturally reaction would cause even an untrained person to flinch away if something gets close to the eyes.

Say in the Iraq war, before the US could get to air fields, it had to neutralise the AAA. Rushing in for the "choice" target would be suicide.

That's why in Northern systems, the targets are more generalized, either lower, middle, upper torso and leg area. it is accepted that significant amount of work may be needed to get to the target areas. That's why the emphasis on sensitivity rather then breaking power.

To give an example, it is alot harder to break someone's leg than it is to disrupt their balance. All it takes to hit your target may be a momentary advantage. Why go to all the trouble (and risk) to go for the break!

The key to success is the collection and analysis of information. You don't need the largest guns to win a war - just enough fire power and know what the enemy is doing.

One more thing - no need to get personal, otherwise other forum users may mistake you for a troll.

Maximus Materialize!

Internal Flow

05-25-2001, 07:00 AM

There is no best and worst style. The only thing that counts when two martial arts practicioners fight , is the ability and technique :D

Ego_Extrodinaire

05-26-2001, 08:18 AM

Internal Flow

I agree with you that when 2 practitioners fight the outcome depends on ability and technique (and amonst many other external factors that may or may not be controllable).

However, that said, it is NOT a proof that there isn't a best or worst style.

Firstly, it is necessary to define what you mean by best and worst - hopefully it may mean keeping the conditions (for the fight to take place) constant.

Then you may want to test the styles statisitcally by having a lage number of practitioners of style A challenging a large number of practitioners of style B.

Then measure the probability of success of A and B to determine if the success of one style over the other is statistically significant. Now repeat this execise for all styles.

I don't beleive that this execise has been done recently. But the closet thing to this experiment probably occurred about 300+ years ago when kung fu was used extensively in the battle field context.

As it turned out, it was Northen styles like Hsing I, mantis etc that were used in highly critical situations like personal body guards for high ranking officials etc.

This may be the closest proof we have to what is / are the best styles. Of course, it is necessary to train correctly to attain the full potential within these systems.

Hope this helps.

Maximus Materialize!

Laine Nakachi

05-26-2001, 09:04 AM

Doug Maverick ,

I read your topic post,well I'm glad that you and your friend,had survived the attack.Could'v been a lot worse.Did your friend leave Sifu Shi yan ming's school because of what happened ?

You know what had happened during the attack.So now what you must do is, prepare yourself environmentally , and using your kung fu skills and train for environmental purposes.

It's good that you're learning Xing I , when you learn the internal arts.You probably going be learning chi kung too.The chi kung exercises helps you to develop awareness.So continue on learning different arts and you'll do great.

Take Care
Sil Lum Kuen

unclaimed effort

06-02-2001, 04:27 AM

Sorry, but yum cha is more of a southern thing. I'm not lying unlike you do. :)

If two tigers fight, the result will be one injured tiger.

Stillness in stillness is not real stillness. Stillness in motion is real stillness.

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-02-2001, 04:58 AM

Depends on what dishes you're refering to in Yum Cha. There is a big variety these days and I guess there is a mixture of Northern and Southern.

Unlike food, however, Northern and southern kung fu is incompetable to the point that if you'vbe learned Northern systems, there is no value in learning Southern Kung Fu which was essentially simple self defence for peasants.

So is this the point where I accept your appology?

Maximus Materialize!

unclaimed effort

06-03-2001, 12:11 AM

simple is better. unless your teacher told you to do something complicated for no reason, you would know that. :)

If two tigers fight, the result will be one injured tiger.

Stillness in stillness is not real stillness. Stillness in motion is real stillness.

Fish of Fury

06-03-2001, 02:13 AM

Ego shows that artificial intelligence is yet to be perfected.
you cant determine which style is best by sitting on your bum theorising ego...you need to actually train.if you don't you'll never understand.

of course, if all you want to do is stir up ****e whilst harbouring the belief that nobody has noticed that you're just being a clown, and the belief that you're actually very clever and witty for pulling off this amazing charade...then your strategy may just work.

whatever gets you off, ego. :rolleyes:

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I never drive faster than i can see...other than that...it's all in the reflexes" Jack Burton

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-03-2001, 06:46 PM

Fish of Fury,

"Ego shows that artificial intelligence is yet to be perfected."

What is perfect intelligence oh fish of fury?

"you cant determine which style is best by sitting on your bum theorising ego...you need to actually train.if you don't you'll never understand."

I have a background in Kung Fu and i am now doing extensive research on the history and development of martial arts in China. Following on from your comment, what exactly do you train to determine the best styles? And what criteria do you set for choosing the best style?

Maximus Materialize!

Fish of Fury

06-04-2001, 02:14 AM

oh, ego.are you still here? how unfortunate.

it's all shades of grey in my opinion.
there is no perfect intelligence and no perfect style (but that doesn't mean you shouldn't aspire to having at least a little of each, ego)

if you're researching the history and development of MA's you may well become a great historian, you will not however become a great martial artist unless you train.you can't look at a movement you've never done and speak with any authority about it.your theoretical posts about kungfu styles clearly show you haven't even scratched the surface.

you CAN however make sweeping generalizations, and inflammatory and insulting posts and see who bites.what i'm unclear on is just what pleasure you derive from this.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I never drive faster than i can see...other than that...it's all in the reflexes" Jack Burton

Ego_Extrodinaire

06-04-2001, 01:51 PM

Hey Fish,

My statement was in response to yours which suggested that there is perfect intelligence. And now you've decided to do a major back paddle by saying that there is no perfect intelligence.

So would your stance that there is no perfect style change in your next post? I just wonder.

It is unfortunate if some people on this forum believe my posts to be inflametary and other adjatives that you've used. i'm not here to please others but nevertheless, I'm well loved by many on this forum.

Maximus Materialize!

Fish of Fury

06-04-2001, 02:15 PM

come on, you can do better than that!

good to see however that as always you're focusing on the trivial in the hope that it will cover your ignorance

perhaps i should have said that you demonstrate that they have yet to DEVELOP artificial intelligence ?
would that make any sense to you (he asks in vain)

if not please feel free to bore me to death with a lecture on the correct way to conjugate a verb, and it wouldn't be complete without you reminding me that you do that roboty thing (what was it again?) oh, and something about mathematics and quantum physics would top it off nicely (but please ensure it has no actual point or relevance to kungfu, or the current conversation.)

thanks in advance

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I never drive faster than i can see...other than that...it's all in the reflexes" Jack Burton