Wushu weapons - why so flexible?

[lotusleaf]

Why are some wushu weapons so flexible? eg: broadsword, staff, and the spear

[CLFNole]

Because their forms are more for show and less for actual fighting. Hence weapons that make a lot of noice are impressive to people who don't have a clue.

Peace.

[MaFuYee]

lotus leaf,

the weapons are extremely flexible because they are made out of flimsy spring steel. - and, in anticipation of your next question, 'why are they made out of flimsy spring steel?' - it is because if they would probably end up maiming themselves if they were to try using real weapons.

* a little known fact:, the word "wushu" (in the modern sense) is actually derrived from the sound that is made when a practitioner swings one of those spaghetti swords around. - WUSHU!

[mestre]

Actually the real reason why some whushu weapons are flexible is that they represent the 'soft' aspects of weapons,wheras the staff and staright sword are the 'hard' weapons. Think of it as aikido and karate 1 is a soft ma 1 hard ma if whushu they have aspects of both hard and soft. The benifits of soft weapons is in their flexability they can bend therefor there is sum give when they are struck and so the energy is spread and not concentrated like the analagy of the reed in the wind where it bouces back whereas a stonger tree might break.

[Liokault]

Mestre




"Actually the real reason why some whushu weapons are flexible is that they represent the 'soft' aspects of weapons,wheras the staff and staright sword are the 'hard' weapons. Think of it as aikido and karate 1 is a soft ma 1 hard ma if whushu they have aspects of both hard and soft. The benifits of soft weapons is in their flexability they can bend therefor there is sum give when they are struck and so the energy is spread and not concentrated like the analagy of the reed in the wind where it bouces back whereas a stonger tree might break."


This is not correct Mestre...the only weapons that should be "very" flexible are whips and chains. All weapons historicaly need a certain amount of flexability in then to stop them shattering when hit.


Now "martial arts" weapons are basicaly cheap and mass produced and are only a representation of the traditional weapons. They are flexable due to several factors.

1/ Very thin weapons will be much lighter and can therefore be swung much faster.....so they look better. Being thin makes them flexable.

2/ People think that thrusting a sword or whatever out in front of them and seeing the end shake shows their focus and superb controle of the weapon. Being flexable makes the end of the weapon vibrate much more easly...making the user feel good about their ability.

3/ I think that the main reason is that people just dont care any more. few people know what the weapon should really feel like or look like. Few people will ever need to rely on a weapon they are training with and as such any cheap replica will do.


Try to buy an authentiqe old weapon....its almost impossiable to do.

[David Jamieson]

wushu weapons are light so they can be weilded with speed.

the lighter the weapon the faster it can be handled. that's about the only reason they are so light. The lightness of the steel they use is responsible for the flimsy attributes.

Properly weighted weapons for Kung Fu practice and demonstration really aren't all that hard to get. You can have your choice of proper weight or wu shu weight on most of the weapons you can purchase through this site.

True weapons are the hardest to come by and are the most expensive.

peace

[GLW]

First off, the original idea of Modern Wushu was to standardize so competition judging would work. Then came the Cultural Revolution and it all stopped. then when that was over, there was an emphasis on competition but many of the old teachers had either died or were afraid to teach the real thing. so...you got flash but much of the substance was hidden or not there at all.

Then things began to loosen up and you got some quarters beginning to do traditional methods again...some still do but by this time you have the old guard retiring or dying and the new folks thinking they know it all... So you end up with the routines like the brand new compulsories...

The competition focus then went into the weapons used. The cheap tinfoli are cheaper and easier to use. they sound flashy and the judges began to reward that by giving higher scores for those who used them... Pretty soon, everyone is using them. The ones that really look funny are the spear and staff. They have a spear that is about 1 foot too short and both spear and staff are toothpicks.

But, in China this is changing. They have started to require a certai wieght and height in the weapons. The competition straightsword and broadsword are actually pretty nice for traditional work. I have one of the competition straightswords and it is NOT a tinfoil piece of junk. It is well balanced and pretty close in weight to my Lungchuan straightsword. Same thing for the broadsword.

The competitions in China now require the heavier weapons - they are raising the bar for competitors. In other countries, they are still using the tinfoil because the IWuF has not made the heavier weapons mandatory - but that is coming.

The folks who go out and do the demos with tinfoil do it because most of the audience wouldn't know the difference and it is plain showmanship.

Interestingly enough, a number of the folks who use the tinfoil to demo only practice with the heavier weapon.

The techniques are SUPPOSED to be such that if you do something that would cut you with the weapon, there is a major deduction. However, due to politics, lack of attention to detail, and poorly trained or caring judges, this often does NOT happen.

[Brad]

I have one of the new straightswords and it is sooooo nice! lol, I'm never going back to tinfoil :D Hey GLW, where do you get your weapons at? I got my sword from a booth at a tournement, but am not sure where the best place online would be. Where do the rest of you get your traditional weapons?


The folks who go out and do the demos with tinfoil do it because most of the audience wouldn't know the difference and it is plain showmanship.

I've never understood this. I've allways felt wushu demonstrations looked much better with less flexable weapons. Who wants to see a sword floping around? It's not that impresive. Most non wushu people I've met so far tend to feel this way too.

[GLW]

I tend to go to www.fistsports.com - well...not exactly, I know Nelson Chin who owns Beijing Imports and have known him for over 20 years...and having him within a 20 minute drive makes it handy. However, if there is something I can't get there, I go to other folks....

[MaFuYee]

* lung chuan swords suck. - even the heavier "combat steel" swords. - the balance is terrible. - they are basically just heavier peices of junk.

i wasted my money on a paul chen gim as well... oh well, another 80 bucks down the drain.

the only nice straight swords i've ever seen, were at the 'angel sword' booth, at a renesance fair in tuxedo ny. an old antique (only $4,000) and their custom made "gims" - not exactly a traditional design, but based on traditional design. - the owner of angel sword (daniel watson) has 30+ years(?) doing tai chi, and is a lineage holder in tung/dong style tai chi.
- they'll only set you back $1,500

[Brad]

- they'll only set you back $1,500

hmm... I think I'll stick with $80 pieces of junk, lol. That's nearlly 3 months pay for me :D

[Julien]

hmmmm, $1500 is a little steep for a good weapon

go to http://www.armor.com some of the best weapons your can get without buying from a custom smith... all of them are euro though (the falchion almost resembled a dao though)

http://www.vikingmetalworks.com has an awesome smith that does the best weapons i seen ever. he has some pieces that your can just pick - i've been eyeing the scimitar for a bit - or he can make you a custom sword.

he charges about $30 for an inch of steel but man, the best you can get

if you look for Del Tin swords, they are probably the mid-range swords... they are a little bit heavier than an original sword but are good quality. not sure if asian swords are made though (look them up on a search engine)

the very lowest in quality for swords that are actually a choice are made by C

basically, if u are buying a sword, u will want to definently ask these questions:

1. Is the sword made out of carbon steel? (if not, don't buy it)

2. Does it have a full tang? (tangs are the things that attach blades to the hilts) if it has a full tang, it can be used in combat... if it is rat-tail or half-tang, it will probably fall off the blade if it is hit by something hard.

3. how much does it weigh? (do not buy a single-handed sword if it weighs over 3 or 4lbs, and don't buy a two-handed if it weighs more than 7 or 8lbs... u'll want the twohander at probably 4-6 lbs)

that is all that is needed... apply these to other weapons too and u're on your way to having a good weapon

also, rat-tails or half-tangs are all right if u are not sparring... just don't hit anything with it. and don't buy stainless steel blades unless u want to hang it up... stainless steel is too brittle. carbon steel - aka spring steel - is the best and most accurate steel for metal weapons.

[Julien]

hmmmm, $1500 is a little steep for a good weapon

go to http://www.armor.com some of the best weapons your can get without buying from a custom smith... all of them are euro though (the falchion almost resembled a dao though)

http://www.vikingmetalworks.com has an awesome smith that does the best weapons i seen ever. he has some pieces that your can just pick - i've been eyeing the scimitar for a bit - or he can make you a custom sword.

he charges about $30 for an inch of steel but man, the best you can get

if you look for Del Tin swords, they are probably the mid-range swords... they are a little bit heavier than an original sword but are good quality. not sure if asian swords are made though (look them up on a search engine)

the very lowest in quality for swords that are actually a choice are made by CAS Iberia. they have a lot of stainless steel swords and rat-tail/half-tang swords... try not to get these. (but they are sometimes worth the price)

a good place to buy a sword for the price is at http://www.kriscutlery.com
they have euro swords, chinese swords, japanese swords, phillipino and others :P (i am looking at the leaf blade and the gladius)

basically, if u are buying a sword, u will want to definently ask these questions:

1. Is the sword made out of carbon steel? (if not, don't buy it)

2. Does it have a full tang? (tangs are the things that attach blades to the hilts) if it has a full tang, it can be used in combat... if it is rat-tail or half-tang, it will probably fall off the blade if it is hit by something hard.

3. how much does it weigh? (do not buy a single-handed sword if it weighs over 3 or 4lbs, and don't buy a two-handed if it weighs more than 7 or 8lbs... u'll want the twohander at probably 4-6 lbs)

that is all that is needed... apply these to other weapons too and u're on your way to having a good weapon

also, rat-tails or half-tangs are all right if u are not sparring... just don't hit anything with it. and don't buy stainless steel blades unless u want to hang it up... stainless steel is too brittle. carbon steel - aka spring steel - is the best and most accurate steel for metal weapons.

[Brad]

lol, my sring steel sword actually fell apart in a kids hands one day while practicing... he did a thrust and the whole thing just came apart and fell to the floor! I was cracking up :D

[FistOfTheNorthSide]

I do rat tail(northern) staff. Our staffs our flexable and made out of wax wood. It has to be so we can bong it and do specific techniques. Same thing with our spears for both southern and northern. Rigid stuff breaks. Swords have to have some flex or they can't cut through right. I saw a good show about civil war calvery sabers. They weren't flimsy at all just flexible. They showed slow-mos of them cutting through watermellons on horse back and explained how the sword had to flex to cut through and not break. The slo-mo was great. The sword got all distorted and tweeked during the cuts through the watermellon. They did a great job of explaining why swords had to flex from a western perspective. I realize there's all those crappy flimsy tinfoil swords out there. I got a crappy straight sword but its good enough to learn with.

[Liokault]

Yes i saw that show to.

The sword had a huge bend in it after the guy on horse back hit the mellon at full charge but i think that holding the sword you wouls have belived it to be very stiff.

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

While current wushu swords are whippy and flexible, the real Chinese historical sabers and swords forged in the Imperial ages were not......they were more rigid and less flexible compared to the spring steel / combat steel lungchuan weapons, as they need mass and density to cut thru armour. flesh and bone in the old days......

The wushu weapons of today, in other words, may be cheap and good enough for practice but are absolutely inaccurate in terms of historical realism.

If you wanna see authentic and historical Chinese gim/jian and dao.......check out my website on Chinese swords:

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com




Cheers
Thomas Chen

" The Chinese warrior 's most important weapons are his heart and mind......."

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by CLFNole
Because their forms are more for show and less for actual fighting. Hence weapons that make a lot of noice are impressive to people who don't have a clue.

Peace.

The only person who doesn't have a clue is you.

Yes Wushu forms are very spectacular, however they have other benefits besides looking pretty. They also strengthen the body, and the mind, and contrary to popular belief, modern Wushu's forms have a lot to do with actual fighting.

Its clear that people like yourself are ignorant of Wushu, since the first form we learn, Chang Quan, is full of punches, kicks, locks, and throws.

[GLW]

I agree about Angel sword...nicest ones I have seen and the only hting that will get me to part with more than $100 or so for a sword.

But, if I don't want or have $1500 to drop on a sword, I would go with the competition ones that Beijing Imports carries. I really don't need a blade with an edge (but it would be nice). Not to mention that such a blade in many states is illegal...but here, I can't carry a sword, but I can get a concealed handgun permit.

[Julien]

Originally posted by Brad
lol, my sring steel sword actually fell apart in a kids hands one day while practicing... he did a thrust and the whole thing just came apart and fell to the floor! I was cracking up :D

most likely a rat-tail

i remember reading a story about someone when they were 13 and bought their first 'real sword'... or so the clerk said so

it was a rat-tail stainless steel sword. he was playing around with it and the blade fell off and stabbed him in the foot hehe


i think wushu blades are meant for performing because they are lighter so u can do more impressive things with them.

[Fu-Pow]

Yes Wushu forms are very spectacular, however they have other benefits besides looking pretty. They also strengthen the body, and the mind, and contrary to popular belief, modern Wushu's forms have a lot to do with actual fighting.

What does running and jumping around in a hot pink outfit with a 1/4 pound piece of tinfoil have to do with real fighting?

Everybody here who has been to a tournament has seen Wu Shu.

It's acrobatic but real fighting is not acrobatic. It's movie stuff.

Don't believe the hype.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


What does running and jumping around in a hot pink outfit with a 1/4 pound piece of tinfoil have to do with real fighting?

Everybody here who has been to a tournament has seen Wu Shu.

It's acrobatic but real fighting is not acrobatic. It's movie stuff.

Don't believe the hype.

Since when is something done at a tournament considered something someone does in an actual self defense encounter? What I do in a tournament is not what I do when my life is on the line. And contrary to popular belief, all of Wushu's forms are not based around high flying acrobatics.

I have also been to numerous tournaments, and traditional MA stylists can be just as flashy as their Wushu counterparts. Do you now want to say that their MA isn't "real fighting" because of what they do to earn a trophy? Howabout traditional arts where you're in an extremely low stance? I have yet to see anyone use an extremely low stance in a self-defense encounter. Getting into such stances would get you killed on the streets. However, no one here would doubt the significance of training in low stances to develop a firm foundation for balance and power.

In Wushu, the first thing we learn are low stances, and then we work our way up to the more advanced, acrobatic forms you see in tournaments. However, if you still doubt Wushu's fighting benefits, just look at Wushu instructors like Pan Quing Fu. His record speaks for itself.

If someone can do a spinning kick in the air, and land perfectly on their feet with little trouble, what makes you think they can't kick someone effectively on the ground?

[Liokault]

Fu-Pow


"What does running and jumping around in a hot pink outfit with a 1/4 pound piece of tinfoil have to do with real fighting?

Everybody here who has been to a tournament has seen Wu Shu.

It's acrobatic but real fighting is not acrobatic. It's movie stuff.

Don't believe the hype."

I think its worse than that Fu-pow......i think its a concerted effort by the chinese government to subdue and controle kung fu and martial arts in china.


Also can any one point me towards a "real" Jian? Im trying very hard to find one and can only find 3 places on the internet that sell them.

One sells very nice antique ones with mostly replacement handles and scabards etc but charges like $3000.

The other place that sells them is always sold out and says that real jian walk out of the shop fast.

The last place is Hanwei who sell damascus jian but i can not tell if they are any good as i know for a fact that another product they sell as damascus is in fact only laser etched!!!!

[Fu-Pow]

And contrary to popular belief, all of Wushu's forms are not based around high flying acrobatics.

Yeah...Yeah...I know the whole story. Old school Wushu training was supposedly way more hardcore and produced people like Jet Li who know lots of different "real" kung fu styles.

The new stuff is flashy and the practioners only train the compulsory forms and never did any "real" kung fu.

Well, let me put it this way... all kung fu is considered flashy by other styles...but there is a good reason for the "flash."

WuShu on the other hand adds flash for flashes sake. To me it seems that we are getting too far away from the original intent that forms were supposed to serve.

They are one component of training. They are supposed to give the concepts or principles behind the style. What the "concept" looks like when its actually applied might look quite a bit different.

But Wu Shu essentlially severes the connection between form and application. Sure, there are probably Wu Shu dudes out there who can fight pretty good San Sou, but they certainly aren't using any of the concepts out of there Wu Shu forms... or they'd get there ass handed to them.

Where as when I spar using my traditional style I can take "concepts" and apply them in a real fight. It's not as far of stretch for me to go from form to application.

Yau Sam

[Julien]

Originally posted by Liokault



Also can any one point me towards a "real" Jian? Im trying very hard to find one and can only find 3 places on the internet that sell them.

One sells very nice antique ones with mostly replacement handles and scabards etc but charges like $3000.

The other place that sells them is always sold out and says that real jian walk out of the shop fast.

The last place is Hanwei who sell damascus jian but i can not tell if they are any good as i know for a fact that another product they sell as damascus is in fact only laser etched!!!!

why would anyone want to use an antique sword? i would buy it and lock it in a case. (for $3000)

honestly, adequate and good swords are not very expensive... adequate at maybe $250-$400 and good at $400-$800
and excellent is at about $800-1400

the most expensive sword i have ever heard of was $5000 and i bet it wasn't even worth the amount.

[Liokault]

It dont have to be antique but it has to be an "real" jian....not a flimsy replica or competition type one.


BTW has any one ever had a weapon disintergrate on them? I know my teacher has had a Dao split near the handle during a work out against a spear.

[Julien]

meh, all swords u buy now are replicas but about half of them are from from flimsy

if u want a good jian for a good price, go to http://www.kriscutlery.com i think it's in the chinese swords section

i've asked about kris cutlery and i've been told, 'good swords for the price'. the only thing i don't like about them is that their swords come sharpened... i don't know about u, but i like my ears.

for a better 'jian', go to http://www.vikingmetalworks.com and email Glen. ask him to make one. ($$$ expensive)

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


Yeah...Yeah...I know the whole story. Old school Wushu training was supposedly way more hardcore and produced people like Jet Li who know lots of different "real" kung fu styles.

The new stuff is flashy and the practioners only train the compulsory forms and never did any "real" kung fu.

Well, let me put it this way... all kung fu is considered flashy by other styles...but there is a good reason for the "flash."

WuShu on the other hand adds flash for flashes sake. To me it seems that we are getting too far away from the original intent that forms were supposed to serve.

And once again, its clear that you're clearly ignorant of the difference between Wushu for trophies, and Wushu for self defense. Of course someone is going to add flash to their form to win a trophy. However, the competitive aspect of Wushu is not the only part of Wushu training.


They are one component of training. They are supposed to give the concepts or principles behind the style. What the "concept" looks like when its actually applied might look quite a bit different.

But Wu Shu essentlially severes the connection between form and application. Sure, there are probably Wu Shu dudes out there who can fight pretty good San Sou, but they certainly aren't using any of the concepts out of there Wu Shu forms... or they'd get there ass handed to them.

Yeah, I'd like to see you take on sifu Pan Quing Fu. I'd enjoy watching who's arse gets handed to whom. I guarentee it wont be Sifu Fu's.


Where as when I spar using my traditional style I can take "concepts" and apply them in a real fight. It's not as far of stretch for me to go from form to application.


And you're being foolish if you believe that someone can't take the forms of Chang Quan, or Nan Quan and derive combat applications from within them.

[Liokault]

Oh come on Legendary_Fist. Do you realise how much damage so called "Wushu" has and continues to do to the CMA?

Its a synical distortion of all that the martial arts should be and as far as im concerned should be totaly ignored.

I also resent the hyjacking of the term "WuShu" by this crap to name its self.

[Brad]

Traditionalists are the ones killing off there own arts now. No quality control, and too much childish hatred.

[Brad]

Oh well... contemporary's gaining a lot of popularity and there's not much "traditionalists" can do about it. There's plenty of traditionalists who are doing well and don't whine and cry..."boo hoo, wushu is killing my art" What ever someone thinks about the usefullnesss of wushu, it's going to be around for a while and there's not much you can do about it.

[Brad]

I'm just going to continue to practice and maybe, one day, teach the way I feel wushu should be. And if someone hates me for it, screw them.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Liokault
Oh come on Legendary_Fist. Do you realise how much damage so called "Wushu" has and continues to do to the CMA?

Its a synical distortion of all that the martial arts should be and as far as im concerned should be totaly ignored.

I also resent the hyjacking of the term "WuShu" by this crap to name its self.

I sense I lot of resentment in your words, and I find that regrettable. I can only recommend you educate yourself about Wushu before you make blanket statements about the system, because there's a lot more to it than you would like to believe.

Once again, why is it so hard for you (and others) to grasp the basic concept that what one does on the demo floor is not completely what the art is about? If that's that case than Karate is nothing but point sparring.

I have been to several tournaments throughout the U.S., and I've seen traditional schools get just as "flashy" as any Wushu school. Hell, I once went to a tournament that had nothing but a Wah Lum school and a Wushu school, and there was little difference between the two when it came to the forms competition. Only an ignorant tool would make an entire perception of a particulair style based on what they saw at a forms competition. Wah Lum is a traditional school that teaches a traditional style. Surprise, surprise, so was that Wushu school that competed against them. They simply did the flash better, because they were trained in a wider variety of CMAs.

As for Wushu destroying the CMAs, I'm sorry you feel that way. However, nothing could be further from the truth. Wushu stylists are some of the finest exponents of Chinese Martial Arts, whether they be traditional or contemporary. If anything, it is those who are obsessed with lineage, or so quick to point out who is doing "real Chinese Martial Arts", that are destroying the arts we so love and cherish.

[CLFNole]

In 1995 in Seatle at John Leong's tournament my kung fu brothers and I met some top notch wushu performers. Their forms were incredible to watch great kicks, jumps stances the whole bit. They were all from Beijing so one of out friends who could speak Mandarian spoke to them. We were asking them about technques and fighting and they told us they never learned any of the fighting aspects just the sport.

Herein lies the problem, when wushu was created by the Communist Government it incorporated aspects of gymnastics, peking opera and traditional kung fu. It appears that the last part was overlooked the most. Besides that you can see very little real techniques in between all of the running the stoping in the various poses they do.

I know you will highlight this whole thing in your post coming up telling me I am ignorant to wushu. But the bottom line is this when the sparring comes around at the end of the tournament day the wushu people are nowhere to be seen. Bottom line is many wushu (note not all but the majority) people are ignorant to what real martial arts are.

Peace.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by CLFNole


I know you will highlight this whole thing in your post coming up telling me I am ignorant to wushu. But the bottom line is this when the sparring comes around at the end of the tournament day the wushu people are nowhere to be seen. Bottom line is many wushu (note not all but the majority) people are ignorant to what real martial arts are.

Peace.

Of course San Shou is a part of Wushu competition, and has been a part of Wushu training since at least the early 70's.

[CLFNole]

If you go to many of these wushu tournaments such as the World Wushu Competion they have every few years in various countries. I think the last one was in China, the San Shou fighters are guys like Cung Li. The San Shou fighters don't compete in the wushu events and the wushu competitors on the national team don't do the san shou. San Shou fighters are generally just that san shou fighters. Many come from various arts.

Peace.

Just another noted you attacked me for saying that the light weapons are for show. Then you went on to say that the flashy moves and forms are for tournaments. So let me ask you then are the light flashy weapons for show if not what are they for. When I competed I would use light swords for show. I'll be the first to admit it so if someone said I was using it for show I would not take it as an attack because it would be true.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by CLFNole
If you go to many of these wushu tournaments such as the World Wushu Competion they have every few years in various countries. I think the last one was in China, the San Shou fighters are guys like Cung Li. The San Shou fighters don't compete in the wushu events and the wushu competitors on the national team don't do the san shou. San Shou fighters are generally just that san shou fighters. Many come from various arts.

Yet that wasn't the point you brought up. The point you brought up was that Wushu practicioners don't participate in the San Shou competitions because they lack basic fighting skills. That's false. There are Wushu stylists who train to take part in San Shou tournaments, and not form competitions, because the training regimen for both are quite different. Wushu's forms, like Chang Quan, Baguazhan, Xing-yi, and others, are quite effective forms of self defense. Once again, Sifu Pan Quing Fu is an excellent example of the fighting effectiveness of Wushu.




Just another noted you attacked me for saying that the light weapons are for show. Then you went on to say that the flashy moves and forms are for tournaments. So let me ask you then are the light flashy weapons for show if not what are they for. When I competed I would use light swords for show. I'll be the first to admit it so if someone said I was using it for show I would not take it as an attack because it would be true.

Actually, I attacked you for stating that Wushu forms are just for show and not actual fighting, I said nothing about the weapons. I stand by what I said; Flashy moves are for tournaments, and that goes for any MA stylist. I've seen Karatekas with flashy katas, however that's not totally indicative of Karate is it? I'll be the first to admit that Wushu isn't hard on the eyes. Its a beautiful art, however within its beauty lies its effectiveness.

As to your question here, I think its obvious that people who want to do forms for speed are going to choose lighter weapons over heavier weapons. It's just common sense.

[firepalm]

I will jump into this one,

CLF Nole said "Bottom line is many wushu (note not all but the majority) people are ignorant to what real martial arts are."

Liokualt said "Its a synical distortion of all that the martial arts should be and as far as im concerned should be totaly ignored. "

In whose perception, what like minded people like yourself percieve the martial arts (Chinese or otherwise) are about? Guess there's only room for what you & yourselves believe the martial arts should be all about?

The Chinese Martial Arts whether you know it or not, or care to admit it, have always been a multifaceted endeavour; fighting - what many traditional styles are about (& some profess to be but are nothing more then a joke); health promoting aspects - whether from either external or internally oriented martial arts training; performance - lion dance, street performers of the past, etc... ; a cultural or philosophical endeavour or any multitude of purposes. The more recent Contemporary Wushu & San Shou are just two more aspects of the Chinese Martial Arts which encompasses many aspects. Contemporary Wushu & San Shou should never be taken to be wholly representative of the Chinese Martial Arts just one aspect.

If traditional is suffering or in any danger it is certainly not because of Contemporary Wushu or San Shou, the fact is no Contemporary Wushu coach or athlete to my knowledge has ever said that they are out to replace the traditional arts.

If the traditional arts do not survive it will be more because of the 'dinosaur' attitudes that many of the current traditional masters & their off spring carry (just look at the ridiculus bickering thats going back & forth within the CLF community right here on this board).

CLF Nole said "The San Shou fighters don't compete in the wushu events and the wushu competitors on the national team don't do the san shou."

No insult but my immediate thought was no sh!t Sherlock! Do a lot of pro baseball players also play basketball at the pro-level? Specialization, so what if Contemporary Wushu player doesn't train to fight, most of them don't profess to be fighters & most will readily acknowledge that what they do is a performance oriented sport.

While it can certainly be argued that Contemporary Wushu does not necessarily have a direct correlation to fighting application it does provide something for young people in that it maximizes there physical potential in a way few other martial arts can. While maybe not fighters Contemporary Wushu certainly produces excellent athletes. These young athletes when maturing will be given potentially superior tools that could be directed in any way chosen (figthing aspects, traditional or whatever). The reverse scenario I would hazard a guess would not be as easy a transition.

Don't get me wrong I have all the respect in the world for traditional styles (that's my background) but the narrow minded keep the blinders on is one of the biggest short comings of the traditional Kung Fu mindset.
:cool:

[Liokault]

Legendary_Fist




I've seen traditional schools get just as "flashy" as any Wushu school. Hell, I once went to a tournament that had nothing but a Wah Lum school and a Wushu school, and there was little difference between the two when it came to the forms competition. Only an ignorant tool would make an entire perception of a particulair style based on what they saw at a forms competition. Wah Lum is a traditional school that teaches a traditional style. Surprise, surprise, so was that Wushu school that competed against them. They simply did the flash better, because they were trained in a wider variety of CMAs.

You kind of make my point here for me Legendary_Fist.

This is how Wushu is killing CMA.

Also can we not call it somthing other than Wushu as that name belongs to all proper military arts from china? My suggestion wound be to call it ....the flash running jumping cartwheeling event to pop music. May have to get that shorter but you get the idea.

[Brad]

This is how Wushu is killing CMA.
Hey, wushu artists didn't force traditionalists to do anything. If there arts are so weak they have to steal "flashy" moves from another style to promote themselves...

[GLW]

Get real....

I have judged at national level Chinese Martial Arts ONLY events and worked in those same events in the US since their inception. I was the technical coordinator of the FIRST CMA ONLY competition held in the US in Houston back in the 1980's.....

Having seen both Contemporary and Classical (What some of you call Wushu and Kung Fu even though both are Wushu - just different time zones - the correct term is Zhong Guo Wushu - Chinese Martial Arts and then you have to specify Classical or Contemporary)...anyway, I digress....

I have seen the supposed best of both Classical and Contemporary CMA folks do forms since the mid 1980's. I can tell you that I am often appalled at the lack of basic stances, movement, body coordination, focus, understanding.....

IN THE CLASSICAL COMPETITOR. This lack of basic training and the idea that everything is a secret...there are NO secrets outside of hard work and thinking about what you are supposed to be doing.... These two things and the lack of the teachers and community to get together and see what they have in common - to TALK is what will lead to the downfall of Classical Wushu - Kung Fu whatever the word you wish to use.

When you see people at the advanced level who can't even do a horse stance in a routine - or people who can't keep their wrist aligned correctly in a punch such that to actually hit something would break their arm, or the same folks fighting with their own body way before they can ever fight with an opponent......well, if your basics are poor, there is not much hope for anything else.

[Fu-Pow]

Legendary Fist-


Wushu stylists are some of the finest exponents of Chinese Martial Arts, whether they be traditional or contemporary. If anything, it is those who are obsessed with lineage, or so quick to point out who is doing "real Chinese Martial Arts", that are destroying the arts we so love and cherish.


Once again, Sifu Pan Quing Fu is an excellent example of the fighting effectiveness of Wushu.

Yeah, who's name dropping here. It certainly isn't anyone but you. If I recall isn't Sifu Pan Quing Fu that guy who punches steel plates and who's knuckles are completely mangled?

Let's get back to the issue here legendary fist, which both CLF Nole and I have hit on:

WUSHU FORMS HAVE BEEN SEVERED FROM REAL APPLICATION!!!!!

This is evidenced by several things.

1)WuShu competitiors generally don't compete in sparring.

2) If WuShu competitors do compete in sparring they don't use anything out of their WuShu forms.

And here's a real life example of the thing that Liokault hit on. WuShu is destroying the tournament scene.

When I competed in a tournament in Canada last year I entered the men's advanced traditional division.

There were people from two different CLF schools competing in that division. One of the schools, my school, is very tradtional CLF. Solid stances, complex yet powerful hand work.

The other school was a mix of CLF with Wu Shu. The guys competing in my division had just finished on the WuShu floor and come over to the traditional ring. They still had their hot pink pants on for god sakes.

Anyways, I performed my tradtional hand form flawlessly. It was one of our short flashier forms perfect for comptetion.

Anyways, the Wushu dudes got up there and did some Wushuized verstion of CLF and he had a god**** "kip up" in his form. I'm sorry a "kip up" is not tradtional MA by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyways, that guy won the division. And you know why because the judges were also WuShu guys!!!!!!

There was Hsing Yi guy competing also and he didn't stand a chance because he might have had great form but Hsing Yi was just too "boring" for the WuShu judges.

So when I go to the same tournament this year what am I going to do? The same old tradtional form, or am I going to really put on show? This is how it all starts and why WuShu is denigrating traditional arts, at least on the tournament side of things.

[Liokault]

A very interesting and well put post Fu-Pow.

I would like to wrap up my interest in this thread as its getting way off message by trying to answer the question posted.

Wushu (hate that term in this context) weapons are flexable as the inportant thing to a wushu competator is not the practical side of what their form is about but how "flash" they can look waveing tinfoil around.

Tin foil can be twiddled much faster than a full weight weapon.

[Fu-Pow]

Yep that's the whole point of WuShu. Form follows function.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Yeah, who's name dropping here. It certainly isn't anyone but you. If I recall isn't Sifu Pan Quing Fu that guy who punches steel plates and who's knuckles are completely mangled?

Sifu Pan Quing Fu is one of the foremost instructors of Chinese Martial Arts in the west. Who cares if his knuckles are "mangled", the man is still a superb martial artist, and a Wushu stylist. In other words, his very existence contradicts your stance on this issue.


Let's get back to the issue here legendary fist, which both CLF Nole and I have hit on:

WUSHU FORMS HAVE BEEN SEVERED FROM REAL APPLICATION!!!!!

Yet Wushu teaches Chang Quan, Nan Quan, Baguazhang, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Zha Quan as empty handed form sets. All of which are ripe with practical application.


This is evidenced by several things.

1)WuShu competitiors generally don't compete in sparring.

Neither do traditional stylists, the vast majority of CMA practicioners on the tournament scene are form competitors. Didn't you know that?


2) If WuShu competitors do compete in sparring they don't use anything out of their WuShu forms.

And when you have forms like Chang Quan, and Bagauzhang, you have plenty of tools available for self defense application.


And here's a real life example of the thing that Liokault hit on. WuShu is destroying the tournament scene.



Your "experience" doesn't mean anything. What you saw, or what you believe you saw cannot be verified. Furthermore, your recollection of the events will undoubtably be completely wrapped up in your personal biases. That's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by the fact that you came to the conclusion that "wushu is destroying the tournament scene" before your rant even started.

[CLFNole]

Legendary Fist:

Since you brought it up mentioning forms like Ba Kwa, Xing Yi, Tai Chi, Cha Kuen, I pose this question to you. Each one of these is a style in and of itself. In your wushu training do you learn each style or do you simply do the Chinese Government created form Ba Kwa, Xing Yi, Tai Chi 24 or 42 and Cha Kuen. If so, does just learning a form with the name on it really teach you the style and the nuiances of their fighting methods or is it something for compulsory judging so that wushu can have more events in the Beijing 2008 Olympics.

I have great respect for wushu practioners as athletes. A good wushu practioner has very good basics better than most traditional CMA practioners, however that being said if you don't train for real combat and fighting situations that it becomes more of a demonstrative sport. You yourself said that tournament forms are just that tournament forms. Why the lack of real techniques then I mean traditional forms can be flowery to but you can cleary see a lot of applications. Don't get me wrong there are some wushu sifus that can fight (we know Pan Ching Fo) but the sad fact is the majority teach what the Chinese Government wants the flashy demo sport it created. Besides Sifu Pan can you name us a few other well-known wushu fighters.

Peace.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by CLFNole
]Legendary Fist:

Since you brought it up mentioning forms like Ba Kwa, Xing Yi, Tai Chi, Cha Kuen, I pose this question to you. Each one of these is a style in and of itself. In your wushu training do you learn each style or do you simply do the Chinese Government created form Ba Kwa, Xing Yi, Tai Chi 24 or 42 and Cha Kuen. If so, does just learning a form with the name on it really teach you the style and the nuiances of their fighting methods or is it something for compulsory judging so that wushu can have more events in the Beijing 2008 Olympics.

When I was taught my forms, the applications went hand and hand with each movement from day one. I could very easily preform Chang Quan at a tournament, because its beautiful, and I could easily use Chang Quan's concepts in a self defense situation, because they are practical.

I have yet to experience a form that has built me up like Chang Quan has. Its simply an amazing set.

As for learning each style, that's simply impossible. People in my school specialize in certain forms, and master them. I'm sure some attempt to master every form, but there are simply too many. A few classmates of mine however, have completely gone the internal route, and they do nothing but Xingyi, Bagua, and/or Tajiquan.


I have great respect for wushu practioners as athletes. A good wushu practioner has very good basics better than most traditional CMA practioners, however that being said if you don't train for real combat and fighting situations that it becomes more of a demonstrative sport.


I'd like to know how many people, in ANY martial art, truly train for REAL combat and fighting situations. If you really believe what you stated, then all traditional CMAs better put their broad swords, Kwandos, spears, three-sectioned staffs, etc. away, since there's no way in hell you're going to be using such weapons in a REAL combat/fighting situation. Should I bring up the extremely deep stances of Hung Gar? The head-high kicks of northern Crane? Or howabout the incredibly slow movements of Taijiquan?


You yourself said that tournament forms are just that tournament forms. Why the lack of real techniques then I mean traditional forms can be flowery to but you can cleary see a lot of applications. Don't get me wrong there are some wushu sifus that can fight (we know Pan Ching Fo) but the sad fact is the majority teach what the Chinese Government wants the flashy demo sport it created. Besides Sifu Pan can you name us a few other well-known wushu fighters.


I honestly can't name many Chinese Wushu sifus period, and the ones I know, aren't any names that you'd recognize. However, which Wushu forms are you talking about specifically? Once again, not every Wushu school is focused around competition. Some are however, but that goes for any MA school/style.

[GLW]

"WUSHU FORMS HAVE BEEN SEVERED FROM REAL APPLICATION!!!!!

This is evidenced by several things.

1)WuShu competitiors generally don't compete in sparring. "

And Sanshou competitors generally don't compete in Taolu (forms). In fact, in recent history of Sanshou, Jason Yee is the only competitor (now a coach) who competed and won in both form and full contact fighting.

The bottom line here is that at a national or international level of competition, given today's society, a competitor MUST specialize. This is NOT your basic practitioner. The bar for competition in BOTH arenas (form and fighting) is much higher.


"2) If WuShu competitors do compete in sparring they don't use anything out of their WuShu forms. "

Same thing goes for Classical Wushu competitors. Having judged at both (I AM A Classical Wushu as in TRADITIONAL stylist), I can say that the number of competitors of ANY style that actually use the style they are taught when they fight is extremely low.

Since 1985, I have seen maybe 10 competitors who DID use their style and do OK. That is 10 out of maybe 300. Not a good percentage.

"And here's a real life example of the thing that Liokault hit on. WuShu is destroying the tournament scene.

When I competed in a tournament in Canada last year I entered the men's advanced traditional division.

There were people from two different CLF schools competing in that division. One of the schools, my school, is very tradtional CLF. Solid stances, complex yet powerful hand work.

The other school was a mix of CLF with Wu Shu. The guys competing in my division had just finished on the WuShu floor and come over to the traditional ring. They still had their hot pink pants on for god sakes. "

What does color of uniform have to do with anything? If you are doing forms competition, the bottom line is make it look good and martial. Show everything you have. While I would NOT choose pink for a uniform, my demo uniforms ARE silk, I have one in dark wine color, one in yellow, one in light blue. They DO wear out and it doesn't hurt to have more than one. I will demo things like two handed straightsword, Ma Dao, Kwan Dao, Taijiquan (various types), Da Hong Quan, etc... all traditional routines. But when I practice, workout pants, t-shirt, sweat top if it is cold....

If you come out to a big competition to compete and wear the black cotton Hong Kong movie style uniform, that will hurt you - If you compete in t-shirt and workout pants, not as bad but not as good as a better uniform. If you are 6' tall and lanky, you want an uniform that does NOT emphasize your lankiness...if you are 5'2" and stocky, you want one that does not make you look like a cannonball. Sorry - that is competition...everything you do gets evaluated.

If you compete in front of me and use a weapon and have good weapon basics, I only slightly notice if the weapon is lightweight. If the rules forbid that weapon, then I give you a no-score. If they do not, I score on what you did.

If you do a weapon form and use a heavy weapon and are sloppy, the guy with the lighter weapon and good form will win out over you. You were SLOPPY. If you can't control the weapon, that is your fault. I have direct proof that you were sloppy. If you do OK and use a light sword, I have NO DIRECT PROOF that you could NOT handle the heavier weapon.

If you do a weapon form and use a heavy weapon and do just as well as they guy who used a lighter weapon...guess what.... YOU get the higher score. You showed more skill.


"Anyways, I performed my tradtional hand form flawlessly. It was one of our short flashier forms perfect for comptetion. "

OK...giving you this one...but, there are issues in ALL competitions with judges not knowing how to judge and following the rules. I can't speak for Canada, but in the US, we have been working on developing rules for around 15 or so years. The US Wushu Union has a copy of the current rules. We have also been pushing for judge training and this will come about soon.

The biggest problem I have faced with officials as a judge is that 50% of the judges I have had to work with do NOT know the rules and do NOT know how to judge. As a head judge, this makes the job of being fair and accurate a real pain...not impossible but a lot harder.

"Anyways, the Wushu dudes got up there and did some Wushuized verstion of CLF and he had a god**** "kip up" in his form. I'm sorry a "kip up" is not tradtional MA by any stretch of the imagination. "


NOT true about the kip up. It may not be in CLF, but it is found in traditional ground or dog style (Ditang- the traditional flavor even though you do see a modern version by the same name).

"Anyways, that guy won the division. And you know why because the judges were also WuShu guys!!!!!! "

And you are implying that they did NOT know traditional. While this may be true, it is a sweeping generalization on your part. If you were to list the judges and what their background is, it would be much more valid. Many Contemporary Wushu teachers also do Classical Wushu to a very high level. NOT ALL, but many. Now, if you had a doubt about the qualifications of the judges, why did you not voice your concerns to the organizer of the event or to the Head Judge? There are ways to do this...your teacher can do this if you can't. If you walk in thinking the judges do not know what they are doing, why should you be surprised if they prove your assumption correct?

"There was Hsing Yi guy competing also and he didn't stand a chance because he might have had great form but Hsing Yi was just too "boring" for the WuShu judges. "

What is Hsing Yi doing in an External division? In a GOOD competition, CLF would be in a Southern Long hand division. Wing Chun and Southern Mantis would be in a Southern Short hand division. Northern is its own division and there is usually a Hsing Yi divsion of its own...Bagua in its own, and then all of the different forms of Taijiquan should each be in their own divsion.

"So when I go to the same tournament this year what am I going to do? The same old tradtional form, or am I going to really put on show? This is how it all starts and why WuShu is denigrating traditional arts, at least on the tournament side of things."

You should expect the Competition to change. They are NOT doing their divisions correctly. Incorrect pairings of competitors will always lead to invalid scores unless you have very very qualified judges. I can tell you that there are only a handful of judges in the US who could evaluate the various styles thrown together and come up with a score that is accurate.

As long as those judging are impressed by flash and do not look first to basics and technique, such things will continue. This problem is something I have been fighting with others for over 15 years.

[Fu-Pow]

Sifu Pan Quing Fu is one of the foremost instructors of Chinese Martial Arts in the west. Who cares if his knuckles are "mangled", the man is still a superb martial artist, and a Wushu stylist. In other words, his very existence contradicts your stance on this issue.

Wow...what a thought. I guess I was wrong, what was I thinking, I mean he is the "FOREMOST" WuShu artist......Are you supposed to be advertising for him? From what I've heard the man is totally nuts. Quite frankly I'd be scared to fight anybody who deforms their body by punching steel plates. It says that something is not mentally quite correct there. Doesn't speak volumes about technique......



Yet Wushu teaches Chang Quan, Nan Quan, Baguazhang, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Zha Quan as empty handed form sets. All of which are ripe with practical application.

Not quite. They teach "WuShu-ized" versions of all these styles. Ask any specialized kung fu teacher what they think of the government created forms. They'd laugh. Just because it looks like "style X" doesn't mean it really is "style X." Each one of these styles that you've mentioned take a lifetime to master the applications and subtleties. Wushu stylists learn one "WuShu-ized" form from a system and claim they know the whole style? Thats crap.


Neither do traditional stylists, the vast majority of CMA practicioners on the tournament scene are form competitors. Didn't you know that?

I did know that and I think its lame.



And when you have forms like Chang Quan, and Bagauzhang, you have plenty of tools available for self defense application.

Read my comments above. The closest thing that WuShu resembles is poorly performed Chang Quan.

Look..... the point is if you like prancing around in your hot pink outfits with tinfoil weapons go for it. My preference is to learn actually applicable martial arts. But don't go around claiming that WuShu is a fighting art. Call it what it is a performance art that looks like a fighting art.

[GLW]

Why the fixation with the color pink?

As for the traditional teachers .... How many high level ones of the older generation from mainland China have you talked to?

I know a number who do NOT care for what is happening in the Contemporary Wushu area in the last 4 or 5 years...but they were trying to keep the roots and ideas there....

The newer generation of teachers have lost a lot. Good physical skills but lacking in foundation and basics.

Strangely enough, many of the old school competitors and coaches are beginning to complain about the move away from the ideals of what Wushu is supposed to be. It remains to be seen if this will cause the pendulum to swing back to its roots or not. I hope so because right now, Contemporary Wushu is poised to become all of the negative things people say about it. It does NOT have to be but becomes that by poor teaching and poorer judging in competitions.

[CLFNole]

Legendary Fist:

Seeing that you have studied wushu for a whole 3 years and seem to know everything about it, I am interested to know this. You said when you were taught the form Cheong Kuen (Long Fist) that the applications went "hand & hand". After that do you train the techniques over and over again with a partner or do you assume that just performing the form over and over will make the technique work in a real situation.

You said that many of your forms have a lot of applications in them but the ones that you perform are for flash. If you think people don't respect wushu than it is up to you and other wushu performers to perform sets with real applications. This will give you credibility with traditional practioners and sifus.

Remember this when the communists took over China they outlawed martial arts entirely. I know that many CLF practioners were beheaded during this period. Mao's wife like martial arts and thus wushu was created as a result. Now if they feared martial arts do you really think they would make something with techniques that would be the same as before. The idea was to make a standarized type sport based on gymnastics, peking opera and some traditional kung fu. Your Lam Kuen (Nan Quan) borrows many techniques from CLF and Hung Gar however many of the important applications are missing.

If you want people to take you seriously demonstrate all that you preach wushu contains.

Peace.

[GLW]

"Remember this when the communists took over China they outlawed martial arts entirely. "

What bit of propaganda is this.

It IS true that many famous masters died when Mao took over. Many of them died because they openly supported chiang Kaishek. Now, if you were the winner in such a war, would you not alos put to death anyone who was of a martial threat that supported your enemy. Not to say it is right but it IS logical.

There were a number of famous masters who did not die and who continued on teaching. Wang Ziping was one such person. In 1960, he was the head of the first team to demonstrate outside of China...they went to Burma and did a number of shows...traditional stuff all the way. Modern Wushu was being developed and Wang was 100% traditional.

In 1966, Martial Arts WERE outlawed. Along with Qi gong, and many other things. That was the beginning of the Cultural Revolution. That lasted 10 years. Many great masters died during this time. Many more got old. When the Cultural Revolution ended and it was legal to teach again, many DID teach but not applications or if they DID teach applications, it was in private to a very select few. They simply did NOT believe that the 10 years of madness were over.

Right now, there is no such restriction. But...the teacher is responsible for the misdeeds of their students. So the teachers are still quite careful.

A lot of bad things happened in China from 1948 to now. A lot of good things have also happened. The truth is NOT what China says it is. BUT, it is also NOT what is bandied about in the west or in the US news and history.

The US tends to forget things like how we did not support China when japan was invading them in the 1930's. How we made an enemy of Mao and made things worse... In Vietnam, how we refused to deal with Ho Chi Minh and he turned from pro-west to communist because we supported his enemies.... What about the fact that we knew NOTHING about the madness going on in china from 1966 until Nixon's visit to China....and all of the people who died at the hands of the Red Guard.

There are many sides to this history but the "Commie" BS gets old. That is just as much propaganda as carying Mao's little red book.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by CLFNole
Legendary Fist:

Seeing that you have studied wushu for a whole 3 years and seem to know everything about it, I am interested to know this. You said when you were taught the form Cheong Kuen (Long Fist) that the applications went "hand & hand". After that do you train the techniques over and over again with a partner or do you assume that just performing the form over and over will make the technique work in a real situation.

Once again, speaking for only my school, Chang Quan is the first form we learn. We practice the form over, and over again until we get it down perfectly. As I stated before, the applications of the forms are taught as well. In fact, a special class is set up on Saturdays where nothing but the application of the forms are taught.

And yes, there are sparring sessions in, and outside of class.

Since we don't have a belt/sash system, the marker of one's rank in the class is one's ability to preform the forms. Those who can do the forms well are considered "advanced students", those who don't are considered "beginner students". Its important to note that there are beginner students who have been at our school longer than advanced students, but simply lack the skill to be considered the latter.

As for working in a "real" situation, one cannot truly know how well their particular style works unless they engage in "real" situations repeatedly. However, since most people rather not get stabbed, shot, or horribly beaten, we'll just have to assume that one's preformance in a "real" situation depends on the person, not the art he is engaged in.

Finally, why the condescending tone? I've answered your questions honestly, and politely. I never stated that I know "everything" about Wushu. However, its obvious that I know a great deal more about it than you do. If you wish to truly learn about my art, then show me the respect a student would show a teacher, because you are the seeker of knowledge not me. If I wanted to know about your style, Choy Li Fut, a style I admire deeply, I would show you nothing less but the same student/teacher respect.

As a seeker of knowledge, I expect you to come with both hands open, not one open, and another behind your back.



You said that many of your forms have a lot of applications in them but the ones that you perform are for flash. If you think people don't respect wushu than it is up to you and other wushu performers to perform sets with real applications. This will give you credibility with traditional practioners and sifus.

Um no. It is not my responsibility to change people's opinions about Wushu. Though I will take it upon myself to educate people about what we do, it is not my job to make everyone love my art. Nor is it my job to change every Wushu's stylists' interpretation of Wushu. Some love the tournament scene, and some do not. There is nothing wrong with that.

If one is so curious about my art, then I can only recommend that they themselves join a good wushu school and experience it for themselves. I can discuss Wushu over a message board, but nothing can compare to the experience of doing wushu in person.

However, I have a feeling that even after this, some practicioners and sifus will STILL have a negative view of Wushu. Such is their loss, not the other way around.

In other words, there is nothing wrong with Wushu, quite the contrary, there is something wrong with the Sifus and practicioners who have a negative view about the art without experiencing it for themselves.


Your Lam Kuen (Nan Quan) borrows many techniques from CLF and Hung Gar however many of the important applications are missing.


That's your opinion. Nan Quan teaches speed, power, flexibility, and stamina. Within Nan Quan are numerous strikes, locks, and takedowns. The concpets of Nan Quan, just like the concepts of Chang Quan, can easily be applied to a self defense encounter.

[CLFNole]

This is my last post on this because its getting old. I could care less about wushu and really don't care how much or little you have learned in your vast 3 years of experience.

The question arose about why wushu weapons are flexible and my answer well not maybe the most well thoughout one related to the flashiness of wushsu. OK maybe some wushu practioners do learn fighting applications, however many do not. Then you jumped on me quoting every word I said saying I am ignorant so what's with your tone. When you quote someone like that it looks as if you are calling them out. Guess what some of us will come. People with any balls will not sit back and be attacked just for voicing their opinions.

If you were to support your arguement with some factual data supporting the fighting prowess of wushu I would be glad to hear it. Don't just name drop and tell me this form we do is loaded with real techniques but we don't show it for competitions. You said it yourself the forms used for demo are for flash then when the question about weapons arose my answer was correct because the question would pertain to what people have seen of wushu, the competion stuff as you have said.

Doing one techniques class a week may be nice but sounds to me that you spend the other 5-6 days (depending on how many days your school is open) practicing your forms because the one who can do the form best is the most advanced. In "traditional" chinese martial arts the ones who are considered advanced can show the forms well and also understand, apply and teach the moves that they do.

I have been doing CLF for about 10 years and to me that is not very long at all. When I was at your stage I to thought I new a lot however, after 5 to 6 years and even now you realize that you really don't know that much.

The fact still remains and you cannot dispute it when it comes to major chinese martial arts tournaments (or at least the one's I have been going all over the US for the past 10 years) is that when it comes to sparring time the wushu people are nowhere to be found.

Oh yeah, another thing lose the bolding and red letters their given me a fargin headache:D

Peace.

Good luck with your wushu training though.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by CLFNole
This is my last post on this because its getting old. I could care less about wushu.

I figured as much.


The question arose about why wushu weapons are flexible and my answer well not maybe the most well thoughout one related to the flashiness of wushsu. OK maybe some wushu practioners do learn fighting applications, however many do not.

The same could be said for any MA style.



Then you jumped on me quoting every word I said saying I am ignorant so what's with your tone. When you quote someone like that it looks as if you are calling them out. Guess what some of us will come. People with any balls will not sit back and be attacked just for voicing their opinions.

I'm sure you'd feel someone was ignorant if they stated that Choy Li Fut was a flowery style with little combat application. I know better than to slam an art I know little about, and you being a senior in the arts should know better as well.


If you were to support your arguement with some factual data supporting the fighting prowess of wushu I would be glad to hear it. Don't just name drop and tell me this form we do is loaded with real techniques but we don't show it for competitions. You said it yourself the forms used for demo are for flash then when the question about weapons arose my answer was correct because the question would pertain to what people have seen of wushu, the competion stuff as you have said.

It should be common sense for someone with as much experience as yourself, that what occurs at a forms competition isn't completely represenative of the art itself, but of the practicioner's goal in that particuliar situation. Anyone here on these forums can attest to the fact that people "juice" up their forms to win trophies. Why would wushu stylists be any different?

I used Sifu Pan as an example because he is a martial artist who uses Wushu. His example alone contradicts your argument. Its much like someone stating that all birds fly, and another pointing out an ostrich.


In "traditional" chinese martial arts the ones who are considered advanced can show the forms well and also understand, apply and teach the moves that they do.

As can the advanced students in my school. I stated that in my previous post, so why regurgitate it here?



I have been doing CLF for about 10 years and to me that is not very long at all. When I was at your stage I to thought I new a lot however, after 5 to 6 years and even now you realized that you really don't know that much.

Yet the issue was not your experience in Choy Li Fut, the issue was your experience in Wushu, in which Iam the one with more experience in. I respect your knowledge of Choy Li Fut, and martial arts in general. However, your attitude towards, and knowledge of Wushu leaves a lot to be desired.

[Fu-Pow]

Too much mouth boxing. I'm going to practice. BTW, I don't have a fascination with the color pink, it's just that WuShu Dancers (which is what I'm going to refer to them as from here on out) seem to be fond of the colors pink, white, pale blue and magenta. This seems rather far removed from the traditional colors of red, white, black and gold. But perhaps that speaks to their intention, to remove themselves from all that is traditional.

[Liokault]

WuShu Dancers Fu-pow....thats an exalent term for it.

Can we not take out the Wushu and just call them dancers?

Or would that insult "real" dancers?

[GLW]

White as a color - well, I guess you will have to tell all of those Taijiquan people that White is never OK.

But then you say that White is OK.

Red, Black, Gold being the only good colors...I truly hope you have to sit as a head judge one day and watch 150 competitors ALL wearing basically the same thing and then doing Gong Li Quan (badly) ... If that is not he11, it is pretty close.

Do you ONLY wear one color shirt? What about your pants when you go work out? Are they only black. I can tell you, I started doing Chinese Martial Arts in 1975. Then you had a hard time finding pants that were long enough...that was in the days of Karate Gis with mid-calf pants. Shoes - forget about it - not available.

So, if people want to add a bit of color...no problem. If you are performing, you need to consider presentation. If you are fighting, dress for that.

I am always amazed that I NEVER hear Conteporary Wushu folks question the validity of Classical folks. They DO remark on how greater than 50% (much greater) have poor basics. Having judged for a long time, I can say that their critique is dead on. Not only that but the Classical folks are the ones with the biggest disparity between their perceptions of their level and their actual level.

Classical folks tend to run down Contemporary with little or no direct knowledge of what they do. They base everything on what they see in competition. READ the criteria for judging from the IWuF. ALL of those items listed as BAD for Contemporary Wushu are listed as items for deductions in the rules.

If you can slide by with something easy with NO penalty, you do easy. If the IWuF trained judges were to enforce the rules, the lack of power and martial focus would be deducted for. The new routines that are garbage (like the new Changquan routine) would be revealed as such and thrown out.

Bottom line - ALL Chinese Martial Arts will NOT move forward until we get the idea that there are more things in common than differences. Trained judges in classical divisions will fix your major complaints. applying the rules will fix a number of other complaints.

We will all get a nice boost when Contemporary Wushu hits the Olympics. If you build a wall instead of a bridge now, when that boost comes, something that could energize an interest in the Classical Arts will fizzle and be just another coffin nail in Classical Wushu. How much do you think has already been lost due to secrets, poor training, no documentation, etc....

The CMA community has a need to quit bickering amongst itself and learn to respect each other. Many of the posts here are insulting and inflammatory. If you were to change the view point from Classical Wushu vs. Contemporary Wush to Other Style vs. Classical Wushu, I can tell you the SAME complaints and insults have been made... for the same reasons. This is truly a pot calling the kettle black.

Take a broader and more open-minded view.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by GLW
White as a color - well, I guess you will have to tell all of those Taijiquan people that White is never OK.

But then you say that White is OK.

Red, Black, Gold being the only good colors...I truly hope you have to sit as a head judge one day and watch 150 competitors ALL wearing basically the same thing and then doing Gong Li Quan (badly) ... If that is not he11, it is pretty close.

Do you ONLY wear one color shirt? What about your pants when you go work out? Are they only black. I can tell you, I started doing Chinese Martial Arts in 1975. Then you had a hard time finding pants that were long enough...that was in the days of Karate Gis with mid-calf pants. Shoes - forget about it - not available.

So, if people want to add a bit of color...no problem. If you are performing, you need to consider presentation. If you are fighting, dress for that.

I am always amazed that I NEVER hear Conteporary Wushu folks question the validity of Classical folks. They DO remark on how greater than 50% (much greater) have poor basics. Having judged for a long time, I can say that their critique is dead on. Not only that but the Classical folks are the ones with the biggest disparity between their perceptions of their level and their actual level.

Classical folks tend to run down Contemporary with little or no direct knowledge of what they do. They base everything on what they see in competition. READ the criteria for judging from the IWuF. ALL of those items listed as BAD for Contemporary Wushu are listed as items for deductions in the rules.

If you can slide by with something easy with NO penalty, you do easy. If the IWuF trained judges were to enforce the rules, the lack of power and martial focus would be deducted for. The new routines that are garbage (like the new Changquan routine) would be revealed as such and thrown out.

Bottom line - ALL Chinese Martial Arts will NOT move forward until we get the idea that there are more things in common than differences. Trained judges in classical divisions will fix your major complaints. applying the rules will fix a number of other complaints.

We will all get a nice boost when Contemporary Wushu hits the Olympics. If you build a wall instead of a bridge now, when that boost comes, something that could energize an interest in the Classical Arts will fizzle and be just another coffin nail in Classical Wushu. How much do you think has already been lost due to secrets, poor training, no documentation, etc....

The CMA community has a need to quit bickering amongst itself and learn to respect each other. Many of the posts here are insulting and inflammatory. If you were to change the view point from Classical Wushu vs. Contemporary Wush to Other Style vs. Classical Wushu, I can tell you the SAME complaints and insults have been made... for the same reasons. This is truly a pot calling the kettle black.

Take a broader and more open-minded view.

Excellent post.

[Brad]

If you were to support your arguement with some factual data supporting the fighting prowess of wushu I would be glad to hear it.

Hmm... sounds alot like Ralek's arguments about KF proving itself in MMA tournements.


Too much mouth boxing. I'm going to practice. BTW, I don't have a fascination with the color pink, it's just that WuShu Dancers (which is what I'm going to refer to them as from here on out) seem to be fond of the colors pink, white, pale blue and magenta. This seems rather far removed from the traditional colors of red, white, black and gold. But perhaps that speaks to their intention, to remove themselves from all that is traditional

You seem to place more meaning on the color of uniform than any wushu artist I've ever come across. Grow up. It's pathetic. Hurling petty insults like that, making fun of the colors of someone's clothes. How old are you? 6? 7?

[No_Know]

One called fu-Pow has a cute quote in the signature. Please notice that one called Fu-Pow speaks a lot.

As for the Others without a clue yet have an opinion (- s), I keystroked a reply that indicated that swords progressed to greater flexibility to avoid better being locked. and that trhrusting is not the main design purpose of Every sword and that that does not make it less of a sword.

It was bad to know Kung-Fu (certain styles/systems/Schools perhaps for decades if not at least near a couple of centuries. Even hard Karate can be used for healing, theoretically. Versatile Kung-Fu Certainly can maintain it's essence while not appearing the same as original.


Speed and Flexibility and precise movements, extension (for some, at least) are aspects good Kung-fu players might exhibit. Gaining different types of Power os strengths coupled with these should not be too difficult. So the Kung-Fu that can be named gets squashed by the law-enforcers~. Wu Shu might be Kung-Fu, just in a different form :-)

Pleasing to the eyes is another Kung-Fu thing. deadly dance. Kung-Fu can look harmless and be significant. Not all things that are are spoken or told. That does not mean that they are not there or do not exist.
Do something other than brag. Do something other than be so proud. Find the Greatness in Humility. Perhaps somesuch some might say

[No_Know]

It was powerfully nice to see GLW's says. Someone with such seeming experience gave weight to which I could read with stronger belief~ (in perspective places). To think that you have that much experience in tournament areas, is Wow.Along with what you said. :-)