Gaining weight and internal martial arts

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

I'm 6'4" and 166 pounds. I'd like to gain about 15 pounds and be around 180, so I've been researching weight gain. It seems like a high protein, low fat diet with an increased caloric intake will do the job, but all plans include weight lifting and reduced cardiovascular activity. It seems like this is contradictory to the practice of internal martial arts, since increased muscle mass might inhibit flexibility. Has anyone lifted weights while practicing internal martial arts? any recommendations or advice? I know this has been on here before but the threads are gone now with the new setup.
Thanks

[Kumkuat]

When will people learn that increase in muscle does not hinder flexibility? I lift weights and do internal. I'm a hypocrite. I know I'm not suppose to do that, but I love weight lifting so much that I can't give it up. Anyway, the maximum amount you spend in the gym can probably be 3-4 hours a week. Well, just practice your internal stuff for 8-10 hours a week in conjunction. Oh yeah, and eat a lot. like around 5000 calories/day or something. Oh and eat fat too. Don't avoid it. But fat has to be polyunsaturated or monounstaturated. Don't eat too much saturated fats. And don't eat too much sugar.

[Fu-Pow]

I think you can probably get away with lifting weights and doing internal, although I've stated otherwise before on this forum. As far as an art like Taiji any weight lifting you do is gonna be more for aesthetics. In the 3 internal arts and good external arts you're going to want to make you body like a huge "bottom weighted" spring. So you don't want to get in the habit of being tense and making the spring too stiff (nor would you want to let it collapse by being too limp). And also be careful you don't make yourself too top heavy by only concentrating on upper body strength.

[beautifulvaley]

1. peanut butter,molasses , and bannana sandwidges
and lots of milk works for me.

I found weight lifting to boring

why do you want to gain weight any way , a fight coming up or what

[CD Lee]

I used to be into bodybuilding hardcore for six years. All I wanted to do was gain weight. Now that I am 200 all I want to do is lose weight. I think you have a very efficient weight for you hieght. I lost 40 lbs running a few years back, but I could not lose the muscles, although I did lose some. I could not get a runners body no matter how hard I tried.

Why do you want to gain weight? Stay light. Your body can do so much more at a lighter weight. If you do internals properly, you should have plenty of power. I just think you should let your body be at a natural weight within reason.

Also, I know you want to add muscle, but just remember, by trying hard to gain weight, you will reset your internal clock for feeling full, and when and if you metabolism changes, you are going to fight your eating habits very bitterly for a long time to come. Your tastes will develop towards very dense caloric and high fat foods, which you will truly cherish in later years.

Now, if you still want to gain weight, how much, what type, what for, and here is the real kicker: How badly??? There are answers, although you may not want to do them all.

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

Well, I'm not desperate to gain weight, but I do feel I'm a little underweight. I'd like to add about 10 pounds and be right in the range for my height and frame- around 175-180. I'm not trying to get huge at 200 or anything...

[looking_up]

Lots of standing qigong with an emphasis on relaxation. Let your body decide how much it should weigh. Don't try to force things
physically or mentally.

[kungfu cowboy]

Lifting will most definitely not hinder your MA practice. Try a weight gain drink (like Mega Mass) or increase your daily caloric intake by approx 500-700 calories, or whatever is comfortable. Sit around a lot, and don't have bowel movements.* Determine how many calories you eat a day on average, and keep a daily calorie diary and weigh yourself weekly to determine if you are gaining or need to modify your diet. Basic rule: Total calories in must be greater than total calories burned to gain weight. Good luck!


*a joke

[Sum Guye]

ETB,

Check out a book called 'The Testosterone Advantage'. It's well
written with dietairy and workout plans for folks who want to gain or lose weight while becoming fit.

Your local library will probobly have it.

[Scarletmantis]

Alot of good advice here. At 6'4", 180 lbs. is still going to be skinny though. I'm 6' even, and at 215 most people can't even tell I work out when I'm dressed! If you put on 15 pounds of muscle, with a proportionate strength gain, your power is gonna sky rocket, but your looks won't change much.

Don't worry about being "too heavy" either. Your muscle is going to be able to carry it's own wieght many times over. In fact, you might even "feel" lighter. If CD is a 200 lb. bodybuilder, he's gotta be like 5'2"! :rolleyes:

You want to concentrate on big multi joint movements for maximal testosterone boosting/functional kung fu strength. I've been powerlifting for about three years, and I found the following workout to be effective in my off season. It should work well for strength/wieght gain in an internal art.

Bench Press/Cable Rows
Squats/ Deadlifts
Dips/Chin ups*

Superset each pair (performing them back to back, with a rest between each pair). For power gain, work 3 sets of the heaviest weight you can handle for 5 reps. Since size is your goal, you can do 3 sets of 8-10, upping the poundage whenever you push beyond 10. For a real kick, I like to work for power AND size by doing 5 sets of 5 reps.

Do the routine twice a week, with at least two days off between each session. Oh, and I forgot to mention that the pair marked * is a "burnout phase" working the muscles you did in the first session to get a maximal pump. You needn't do the burnout pair unless you want to put on size, but then again, it can't hurt, right? You may also want to choose a burnout exercise for your legs too. I don't like to because Ba Gua sessions tax my legs enough as it is :D

[Scarletmantis]

Oops! Another thing that's nice about this routine is that it only takes about 25 minutes to perform. That leaves plenty of time to practice your martial art if you're a kung fu buff...errr a buff kung fu... ummmm guy.

My guess is that you're also probably getting enough Cardio health benifits from your Ba Gua. I'd back off on any supplemental Cardio you're doing 'cause it's just burning calories you need for wieght gain.

[CD Lee]

Posted by Scarletmantis:


If CD is a 200 lb. bodybuilder, he's gotta be like 5'2"!


Screw you. I am 5'9. Don't give me your roll-eye ****, *******.
Are you intimidated by my frame? If so, you have a real ****ing problem. I am just trying to help this guy. Go **** off!

[Daniel Madar]

I think CD has some good advice.

As was mentioned on another board, the following information comes from a 78 year old bagua, and taiji practitioner. I am sure the original poster has read it, but it might be edifying for others.

Taken directly from the other post*

"The trick for gaining mass while doing internal martial arts is to not gain too quickly, make sure to stretch your upper body, waist, and legs before and after workouts, and to LAY OFF if you are still tired from previous days. If not, you will end up super tight and your skill will suffer. It's not the mass that inhibits flexibility, its the method of training. I know a 78 year old internal artist who used to weight train and do gymnastics as well as internal martial arts, and he agreed about these points since in his experience these elements were key to avoiding ruining his skill. "

[CD Lee]

Thanks Daniel.

ETB, I think you have the right idea. There is no harm in adding good muscle to your frame, as long as you do it with balance. Muscle is efficient in the utilization of oxygen, and your heart will benefit from good training as well.

I would certainly be careful about radical changes to your diet to attain this goal.

ScarletMantis: I said I was a bodybuilder years ago, hardcore. That does not mean I was good or had the classic proportions to win contests. In fact, I never gained past 170 lbs bodybuilding at 5'9. If I wanted, I could have taken steriods and been more competitive, as my brother did, going from 160 to 215 in three months. I did not want to go that route. I did bodybuilding because I liked the workouts. The good news, since I trained properly, without drugs, I still have a nice muscular structure, not a huge one. The bodybuilders you see in magazines are not natural, and very very few people have the genetics to attain those type bodies.

Also, I do not believe that heavier is better regarding muscles. There is a law of diminishing returns in relation to gaining muscular weight on any given skeletal structure. There is a natural balance for the efficiency of the heart and circulatory systems, combined with the respritory system. The length of your limbs have natural leverage points that have a bell curve of muscle mass regarding the distribution of strength, efficiency, and flexibility. You can gain more muscle on your frame than is optimal, although most people do not have the genetics to actually make this a reality.

[Scarletmantis]

Cd, I'm sorry if I hit a nerve there. I meant to be using you as an example. Eight Trigrams Boxer stated that he is 6'4", and that if he weighed 200 lbs., he would be too big. I'm sure you realize that a 6'4" man is never going to look like a body builder at that body wieght. I only used your name because you described yourself as a "hardcore body builder" who wieghs 200 lbs. The reference to your height was merely an educated guess based on the body builders who are active today, and was meant to illustrate the absurdity of the of the idea that 200 lbs. of muscle is "too much" for a 6'4" man.

...and no, I'm not intimidated by your frame...
just jealous!;) Please accept my apology.

[bamboo_ leaf]

In most of these discussions on wt training and wt gaining I don’t see how one could train lifting something and then try and use real internal skill to make or lead some one to move. I think your time would be better spent learning how to relax or something more related to the IMA skill that you wish to acquire.

This is what I have found in my own studies; yes at one time I did the wt thing too. In search of more power. 90% of people that I have met really don’t understand inner power and making use of intent. Yes, it’s that hard! until you met a teacher or someone that really can express it then for most it remains a fantasy that they can’t believe in much less do.

this is why as some have said on this borad most IMA people really don't have the skills they feel they have.
this is why testing is very imprortant, not in the sense of winning but to really find out if you have true skills.

What would be more beneficial and what would it be training: picking an object up that weighs a couple of ounces and believing it weighs a couple of hundred pounds or picking something up that weighs a couple of hundred pounds. Some might say picking up something that weighs a couple of hundred pounds believing it weighs a couple of ounces. This I think is a mistake.


Even among old time TC players many still use force, why? Because they have been taught this way from the beginning. The beginning and end of your training is the non-usage of LI, when you can do this it opens up a whole different way of moving and applying your art.

I think it’s very important to have a clear idea of what and why you are training something. Will it affect your TC skills I don’t see how it could not. Introducing stress into either the body or mind will have some type of effect on your practice.


just some thoughts


david

[Daniel Madar]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf


What would be more beneficial and what would it be training: picking an object up that weighs a couple of ounces and believing it weighs a couple of hundred pounds or picking something up that weighs a couple of hundred pounds. Some might say picking up something that weighs a couple of hundred pounds believing it weighs a couple of ounces. This I think is a mistake.



Ever have breakfast, and you have a glass of OJ and a glass of milk... You are tired, and you pick up the milk and for some reason you think its OJ. Yuck, the horror of expectation.

to provide an alternative point of view... I lift weights.

I lift them to stay healthy as I get older. I dont lift them to get buff, or strong. I ride a bike to keep my cardio in condition, not to stay thin. I stretch to stay flexible, not to perform in exaggerated sexual positions.

[Zantesuken]

hahhahahahahahahaha stretch for kama sutra lololol
anyways lift weights, stretch, bike.
biking i guess is ok

weights, stretching you don't really need. stretching maybe but not weights

tai chi in itself will keep you healthy until you're old. if you also meditate and do standing posutres you will achieve flexibility cause you're muscles will be more 'obidient'. i know i sound stupid but that's the translation!

[bamboo_ leaf]

“exaggerated sexual positions”

okay, okay I give!!!

Only one question? What is wrong with exaggerated sexual positions?


david

[Zantesuken]

OHH now we all know what he practise tai chi for! ha ha ha haha

[CD Lee]

Origianlly posted by SMantis]


Cd, I'm sorry if I hit a nerve there. I meant to be using you as an example. Eight
Trigrams Boxer stated that he is 6'4", and that if he weighed 200 lbs., he would be too
big. I'm sure you realize that a 6'4" man is never going to look like a body builder at that
body wieght. I only used your name because you described yourself as a "hardcore body
builder" who wieghs 200 lbs. The reference to your height was merely an educated guess
based on the body builders who are active today, and was meant to illustrate the
absurdity of the of the idea that 200 lbs. of muscle is "too much" for a 6'4" man.

...and no, I'm not intimidated by your frame...
just jealous! Please accept my apology.


I accept your apology, hoping you will also accept my apology for being a complete @ss. I was irritated and it was late. When I read my reply again the next day, I thought, "what an @ss I am!". Anyway, I'll work on the late night attitude. Thanks!

[CD Lee]

Ok, I have several thoughts on this issue that bug me a little. They are just blatant common sense really so here goes:

1. The Chinese Masters, and practitioners of the internal arts did physical labor all day to earn a living lots of times. They were strong and had muscles for practical puposes. What did they do with thier muscular power when doing their arts? I think they relaxed them personally. What do you guys think? Did their muscles that were tense lifing a cart or pushing a plow, remain tense all the time, or duing their practice of internals?

2. You cannot move your skeleton without contracting muscles. It is impossible. Muscle is not bad. Unnecesary tension in the muscles is bad. There is always some tension neccessary for any movement even in the internals. Tension must be present however for any movements to work. That is a fact.

3. Whether weight lifting or doing labor, one must learn to vary the tension in thier muscles to perform internal arts or for other tasks.

4. Weights do not make you tight all the time. Just when you are actually lifting. The tightness in the muscles is blood immediately after doing the lifting.

5. The Problem is one of tension control. Being able to release/add tension into ones muscular system as needed. Performing forms using the same tension used to lift a very heavy object is ridiculous at best.

6. If I am two times stronger than another person doing the same exact internal move, both using relaxed muscles, and proper structure --- my move will be 'implicitly' stronger than his move.

I have worked arm bars with weak and strong, and believe me, it is easier even relaxed if your grip is nice and strong naturally.

[Zantesuken]

i think along the way the ideas of sung and blah blah were not translated correctly. in some of the chinese teachings of it there's one thing that translates into expand and contract. now that could go into many things like muscle expand ocntract, metaphorical blah blah.
instead of no muscles, no strength, very relaxed think of it this way.

push without pushing
use force without force

[bamboo_ leaf]

CD Lee,


I read your post, and like many people I feel because you have not felt it, it is very hard to except or understand. What Z, said is very correct but can’t help in the understanding of this process.

To move someone using nei-gung or intent is very, very hard. Only a few people that I have met can really do this. It’s different yes muscles are not used. Even Z’s idea of pushing with out pushing I would say is a little short. I would say there is no push only follow. Find the emptiness or lead them to emptiness and work with this. Really this is very different then pushing against the structure or blasting them out with fa-jing.

Also I would say it’s not a matter of wrong or right, that seems to be a very ridge approach to a living art. I would say it’s a matter of level and understanding.

Having practiced a long time is no grantee that you can get it or have it either. This is why it is very important to seek out others and see if what they say they can do is true, see if what you think you can or are doing is true.

this is what for me makes this art so very intersting

david

[circle_walker]

Not wanting to argue the aformentioned points, yoiu may be interested in some article that Capt. John Painter recently wrote for Inside Kung Fu Magazine. He covered plyometrics, and many weight oriented Bagua workouts. Also in a book titled "Emei Bagua Zhang" written by Yang Jwing Ming, Liang Shao Yu, and Wu Wen Ching; there were exercises shown where they used large bricks to compliment their training. I have never used any of these methods myself, in my internal training. However, I hope this information provides helpful to what you are looking for.

[CD Lee]

Bamboo_Leaf:

OK. I understand what you are trying to say I think. Let me make this observation. You absolutely cannot move your skeleton without using muscle contraction period. Period.

Unless...you are honestly using telekinetic mental force, which is akin to levitaion or moving objects with your mind alone. If one can do this, I do not see why it should be limited to the body.

I have an open mind seriously. In what other way can you move your skeletal structure than with muscle tension? You said intention alone? Think of what that actually means in kinnetic terms. It means the mind can lift and move with NO muscular support. Did you have any thoughts on my comments on muscular tension control versus muscle mass per se?

As far as Dr. Painter. I have felt his skills first hand. He gets a lot of crap on this forum from those who have not met him, but his methods are real, they work, and he personally, is very skilled. He has stated emphatically to his students many times, that although he is a very powerful man, and he is, that if a move requires more muscle than it takes to lift a 10 lb. weight, then it is perfomed incorrectly. Muscle has limitations, and rest assured, you can always find someone or some weapon/situation where your muscle will fail you.

I personally have felt the difference between muscular power and internal power. However, it simply takes a lot less muscle doing things internally than externally or hard from my experience. Now, I am new, and have not developed all the mental aspects obviously as you may have or others. But I have changed the way I have power. I am hooked enough to keep working hard.

Don't mean to be confrontational or aggressive on this issue. Really, what are you thoughts on my statements (other than I just have not felt it)?

[Leonidas]

I was told that 'sung' actually meant to move without conscious though and doesn't really mean to completely relax, which is impossible as you need atleast your legs tensed to stand up or you'd fall. once you internalize something in your mind its not that hard to move subconsciously. Thought is said to inhibit "chi" flow so i think it has less to do with muscle as it does with your mind. Look at the Chen Style or the Old Yang form, some of the moves are pretty athletic. Expand/Contract, probably means breathing

CD Lee said:
"6. If I am two times stronger than another person doing the same exact internal move, both using relaxed muscles, and proper structure --- my move will be 'implicitly' stronger than his move."

In reply to that, Internal Martials Arts have nothing to do with strength. The entire point of of Tai Chi for example is to use "4 ounces of force to deflect a thousand pounds" or something like that. I butchered the phrase and it is a bit of an exaggeration but thats the basic idea of all IMA styles. So if a situation like that somehow came up it be'd more of an issue of skill than strength. Who has a better understanding of their arts principles and more importantly who could could actually use them in a fight let alone a friendly sparring match. Oh yea, i didn't mean to attack your post CD just wanted to clear that up. Alot of people think that way.

[Zantesuken]

Expand contract from what i was told is in themovements. You push out and then sit back. Do the form and think about it. there's also a partial and impoartial movement. Positive/negative.

I'm not sure about the complete sung part but maybe at higher levels it's chi along the bones that provides power. It would also make sense that your muscles to contract (maybe not using strength) but a very very miniscule contraction that uses m inimal energy. if you were to simply not use your muscle then it would wither away.

When a lot of people look into this they get really bogged down. Remember Tai Chi was rooted from Taoism. Taosim is the way. It takes many things from nature and so does Tai Chi. I'm sure they took it into account that you don't just not use muscle. Muscle means using the muscle to move. not muscle to fight.

[Leonidas]

Sung is pretty complicated but i think there is more involved than just not using strength. 'Whole point of IMA is effortless fighting which takes alot more work than simply not tensing your muscles. More principles involved.

[CD Lee]

Leonidas said:


CD Lee said:
"6. If I am two times stronger than another person doing the same exact internal move, both using relaxed muscles, and proper structure --- my move will be 'implicitly' stronger than his move."

In reply to that, Internal Martials Arts have nothing to do with strength. The entire point of of Tai Chi for example is to use "4 ounces of force to deflect a thousand pounds" or something like that.

No offense taken BTW. I know you are not attacking my post. :)

I do not think you are correct however, when you say the intermal arts have nothing to do with strength. I think they have everything to do with it. The manner in which we express strength is the difference. Internals are more concerned with not using excessive muscular tension to fight with or move with.

That said, you still cannot move without using muscle fibers in a contracted state, unless you are using gravity at terminal velocity. Even a negative motion uses muscle. It is silly to say we do not use our muscles.

My point is this. If I have more muscular strength than you, and we are equal in internal skill, I can rely on muscular strength if I make a mistake, and you can to a lesser degree.

However, let me point out the obvious. Just because you have strong muscles, and do not rely on them to fight with, you still can use them to lift beds, to move furniture, to rescue people under debris, to lift kids, to pour cement in the back yard, and to look and feel great. Muscle is superior to lack of muscle. That does not mean you have to use your muscle inefficiently just because you have them.

Also, can you hold a horse stance with weak legs? Can you bamboo step effectively with weak legs? Can one do any kung fu to good effect with weak legs? I say no. Any other opinions?

[Scarletmantis]

As many of you know, I am both a former competitive powerlifter and a Ba Gua Zhang practitioner of some thirteen years. I therefore feel qualified to share the following anecdote which I believe sums up the whole of the matter:

Some years ago I was talking with master George Xu following one of his internal arts seminars. I asked him what his feelings were concerning the use of wieght training by an internal artist. Master Xu said "Chen Taiji stylists use wieght training all time. Ba Gua and Xing Yi too. Problem is never 'muscles too big' or 'muscles too strong'. Problem only comes when you can't relax. You stay flexible and relax, you have real internal strength, then no problem."

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Don't mean to be confrontational or aggressive on this issue. Really, what are you thoughts on my statements (other than I just have not felt it)?”

CD Lee,

Well it seems you have.

This is what I have felt form some people and what I can do a little of my self.

Doing any of this doesn’t directly translate into fighting skill. That still requires a different practice.

When we talk of intent this means that you can send the intent ahead of the movement. Practically speaking it means that in something like push hands you feel that some how your balance is off and the other person is not pushing you. You can feel there intent inside your body. To some one looking out side there may not be any movement. To the people involved there is much action going on inside. Or you can feel (hear) the intent of the others action and lead it. The result is that they tend to follow it and fall over.

The stronger the intent the more there is to work with. The less intent the less to work with. This is why sometimes its hard for people to really practice in this way if they don’t have a strong idea of what intent is then for the most part their lite, soft actions are empty and of no use.

To make use of this requires a very high degree of skill, there can be no doubt in your mind / as Black Taoist, might say it has to be real. If not then you will get killed on the first encounter.

To me the use of wts to supplement your training in it’s self is not bad; but I think it means that you still have not got the right idea and need to feel or have something to back it up.

It would be like saying that you can swim with no problems but still wear the life vest. You must have total understanding and confidence in real ability gained though real practice.

I think this is a little different path then just learning how to fight. There are mush easier and simpler ways to acquire the skill of knocking people out.

Also it’s a process, you can’t start at the top, you need to take some lumps and pains. Taken some and given some, my practice is very different now.


david

[cybermantis]

So how about Pushups, and situps? if so how much per week?

[CD Lee]

Bamboo:

I like the things you said in your last post a lot. I like what George Xu says about the matter. That is exactly what I was trying to say. Muscular TENSION, not muscle is the problem.

As far as having muscle, there are so many more real reasons for good, well conditioned muscle, than for fighting. My goodness, any fighter than has really had fights, or anyone who watches western boxing matches, know that muscle may not help you punch or fight well at all.



To me the use of wts to supplement your training in it’s self is not bad; but I think it means that you still have not got the right idea and need to feel or have something to back it up.


I think you have the wrong idea of what I mean. BTW, I am learning Xingyi to crush would be attackers that would harm my family. I will use a knife or gun no problem if available at the time. Xingyi, that too. My intention in a life or death situation is to damage in a severe and disturbing manner, the person that is threatening my life, as quickly as is humanly possible. I don't like fighting. That is why I learn Xingyi.

It is not admitting a weakness by having muscles. That is silly to think, as some people are muscular naturally. Ricky Cox, the winner of the Cowtown Marthon, 135 lbs, looks like a bodybuilder, but all he does is run. I know guys that are muscular regardless of what they do or don't do. All I was saying is all else being equal, someone with more muscle has one more option. No secret cop-out muscle plan going on. I was a sprinter in school because I was fast. I was born fast. I have that option too if I am getting mugged. That does not mean that I don't rely on interal power just because I have another option.

My point was that muscles are natural. Tell a day laborer he does not need any muscle, but rather, just intent to move that roofing rafter or cement tamper, and you will see what I am driving at. Most of us do not do Internal MA every day all day. Some people that do MA actually may need some muscular strenght for other reasons.

Let me state emphatically, that I am saying muscle is a very good thing to have, for much more than fighting or MA. However, muscular TENSION to an unnessacary degree is not good for Internal nor External Arts. Even my book on western boxing states that your muscles should be as completely tension free and relaxed as is possible and still maintain your stance with hands up. Only at the moment of contact is the muscle to have any tightness to it. And western boxing is very external. Some boxers can handle muscle without tightness or loss of speed, such as the incredible body of Ken Norton. However, others have tried with muscle and failed miserably. Big muscle is definately not neccessary for power in punching. Look at Rafael Ruelas. A toothpick with dynamite in his fists.

While the intent thing seems like telekinetic energy by your description, I at least see what you are saying. I am also no expert on internals, but I am allowed to ask questions and question what we know of science and research. That is fair.

ScarletMantis did sum up my thoughts exactly.

[CD Lee]

So how about Pushups, and situps? if so how much per week?


That would depend I think on what you are trying to accomplish. Fighters who actually fight not dance, do a lot of both, especially the abs. Hey guess what? If you have a real fight, you will still get nailed in the abs if they guy is any good.

However, the work may not be worth the effort, if you probably will not be fighting. Something is better than nothing. Start out easy, and keep it easy. Eventually you get stronger, and will do more easily. Then you seek a balance between practicality, time, and effort.

[IronFist]

I just kinda skimmed through this whole thread because I don't usually come to this forum. CD Lee, did you mean your brother went from 160-215 in three years? I doubt he did it in three months, even with steroids. That's a caloric surplus of 192,500 calories in three months, which I doubt he ate. Well, maybe if his cycle caused him to retain a TON of water, but still...

What was his bodyfat % before and after his 55 pound gain?

(note: for those of you who did the math, it will break down into about 2100 calories per day. But remember, that doesn't mean you eat 2100 calories per day, that means you needed 2100 calories surplus left over (unused) each day, taking into account the fact that the more you eat the faster your metabolism goes.)

Well, the more I think about it, the more I think it's possible if he knew exactly what he was doing, it was his first steroid cycle, and he was not at a high bodyfat percentage to begin with. I would have an easier time believing 30 or 40 pounds in 3 months though than 55lbs.

IronFist

[CD Lee]

Leonidas,

A very long time to reply I appologize! Great question on the weight gain. He was lean already, and took testosterone injections. He did gain around 50 lbs in 3-4 months. Yes, this is unnatural, and there was a lot of water retention from my observations. I have got to say, however, the transformation was mind boggling and scary. He could not handle steriods, as he went into rages every so often, which I saw other guys do. I can tell you first hand, these alone are not worth the risk, as you could hurt someone very badly in a steriod induced rage. And I mean a RAGE. You are also on target about the calories too. He did eat like a friggin' ton of food and supplements at the time. I am happy to say, he grew out of this period and is now normal.

[Spirit Writer]

CDlee, the thing is, a internal master would aproach physical labor like an internal master. Think of a sledge hammer. You can use one -- a heavy one -- all day, and still not tense your muscles like benching. Why, because you let the hammer do the work for you, use its weight and gravity. Same for all things, find a better way -- this is internal.

Also, most of the internal higherarchy were not farmers or such -- that is the village boxers department, but relatively well to do. If not from well to do, many moved in with their masters and made martial arts there life -- thus no field plowing, and, in that case, find a better way -- use an Ox. And, how to control such a large beast -- find a better way. A few ounces on its nose ring.

This is internal mind set, not adding another 45lbs plate to the bar and benching till a vain pops in your forehead.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Eight Diagram Boxer
I'm 6'4" and 166 pounds. I'd like to gain about 15 pounds and be around 180, so I've been researching weight gain. It seems like a high protein, low fat diet with an increased caloric intake will do the job, but all plans include weight lifting and reduced cardiovascular activity.

Please come ask me this question in the training forum.

IronFist

[CD Lee]

Also, most of the internal higherarchy were not farmers or such -- that is the village boxers department, but relatively well to do. If not from well to do, many moved in with their masters and made martial arts there life -- thus no field plowing, and, in that case, find a better way -- use an Ox.


Ok. However, could you name some of the more well to do masters in Kung Fu, especially from the internal side of the arts?
If they did no labor, how did the students and eventually masters make a living?