White Crane & Okinawan Karate

[Tsuruken]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and already I can see many wonderful and interesting discussions taking place!

On 02-16-001, Rogue wrote "Is Shaolin White Crane the same as White Crane?"

In reply, MoQ from the US West Coast said <"I don't know what this stuff has to do with Karate... If there were Okinawans trained by Shil Lum monks or Fukien White Crane masters or whatever, they learned basics and what they could and then did it their own way and now the only significant relationship is the lipservice.>"

I am sorry but I have to disagree with this statement. As a martial arts instructor of some 30+ years experience and a martial arts researcher studying the ramifications of that phenomenon in it's anthropological context, I can state that the evidence for the influence of Chinese He-Quanfa upon that of the native Uchinan/Okinawan martial forms has been more than just "lipservice1"

Sadly, commercial explotation has necessitated a myriad of eclectic interpretations and along with this "progress" the very essence upon which these fighting traditions rest, has either vanished or been compromised.

Historically, Fujian has always been regarded as the "mecca" where all Uchinanchu (Okinawans) had to go to receive proper instruction in Chinese Quanfa. Apart from the famous Okinawan Kojo (Cai) family, I personally know of other 'style's' in Okinawa, which perpetuate a reasonably pure Fujian-based Crane-Fist tradition.

This 'personal' view includes acknowledging that Matayoshi Shinpo's school represents his personal interpretation of Gokenki's (Wu Xiangui 1886-1940)Kingainoon style taught to him and represents his personal interpretation of Gokenki's Kingainoon.

I have learnt several Okinawan White Crane-Fist forms while in Nagata, Naha-shi, Okinawa which clearly reflect a very strong and time-honoured link to that of Chinese Crane-Fist Boxing. So much so that they (the forms Kata/Hsing) are almost identical to their Chinese counterparts!

One must also consider the primary vehicle via which such cultural and martial traditions wer and continue to be passed on. This vehicle is Kata/Hsing/Forms noy t hjust a few "basics" as
MoQ has mistakenly written.

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[rogue]

Thanks for the post Ron!

[whitelion]

Interesting Ron. Thanks for that. :)

------------------------------------
Talk softly and carry a big stick.

[inyo]

thanks ron --oossuu!!!

[billy_pilgrim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Sadly, commercial explotation has necessitated a myriad of eclectic interpretations and along with this "progress" the very essence upon which these fighting traditions rest, has either vanished or been compromised.
[/quote]

Um...that's exactly what MoQ said... "NOW the only signifigant relationship is the lipservice."

I have no doubt that Okinawans learned some forms, but what forms, training forms, fighting forms, how many and which????

You do not mention the Bak Hok Chi Gung anywhere in your post...if this tradition has not been passed down in the Okinawan lineages than I would have to agree that they probably didn't learn as much from the Chinese as some would like to believe they did. I know a lot of people want to claim a link to antiquity and a monastic origin to what it is they're studying but all of the Okinawan stuff I've seen looks in no way like Fukien White Crane.
Yes, I am sure that there are a small handful of Okinawan lineages/schools that possess a large quantity of Fukien material...but in your post, you only cite two as examples...are these the only schools you've found in your 30+ years of research? The simple fact of the matter is that as rare as authentic Southern White Crane is in the west, an authentic Okinawan "version" of the same is probably even rarer.
Also, when you say that the forms you learned are almost identical to their Chinese counterparts...what are you basing this on? What is your experience with authentic Bak Hok to place these systems in a comparative context? Are they identical only in a mechanical sense, or are they identical both externally AND internally?

[billy_pilgrim]

Ron,
In reading your post, there seems to be the assumption that because Okinawans have forms, that they learned more than mere basics, as if forms and basics are mutually exclusive. Many people in Gung Fu start learning forms on day one, it's still basics. They may have learned a half dozen forms, doesn't mean it wasn't all basic material.
Here's what needs to be done, from an academic standpoint. If one wants to try and quantify just how much Fukien Bak Hok is contained within a particular Okinawan lineage, you would need to find someone very advanced in the Chinese system, someone who knows the advanced hand and weapons forms, the 2 person forms, the chi gung, the herbology, etc, etc...make an itemized list of what would be considered "advanced" material, and then see if you can find anyone in the Okinawan community that teaches the same material with the same mindset/intention, etc.
Good luck.
My experience with Okinawan martial systems is nowhere near as great as your own, but I've never seen anything even close. And, as you yourself say, over the passing of time, great differences do arise, this is how separate systems are created. Many, many distinct Chinese systems have a common ancestor in the distant past, but their similarities often times end there.

[rogue]

I don't believe that Ron was saying that they're identical but similar, the Okinawans like the Chinese took what they learned and adapted it to themselves.

It facinates that many CMA can't accept the compliment that the Okinawans give them by the homage they pay to White Crane and Shoalin.

[billy_pilgrim]

His exact words were "almost identical", you interpret how you wish...
An homage is fine, but more often than not it is the co-opting of a name.
One would almost get the sense that there is a certain amount of insecurity at play in the Karate camp, what with all the repeated attempts to force a link to Chinese Kung Fu, regardless of how shaky that connection maybe...
More often than not there is a "cheapening" (if you will) of Kung Fu that takes place to make the pieces fit together...read the original post again, he SEEMS to be saying that because there are some Okinawan Katas that are "almost identical" to Fukien Bak Hok, that there is some clear cut established lineage. I would like Ron to quantify to just what extent he feels these systems are similar. He says that it's more than lipservice, but mentions nothing conclusive beyond a few hand forms...will someone please answer my original questions?
Where is the Chi Gung?
Where are the weapons sets?
Where are the 2 person sets?
Where are the herbs?
I am not saying these things do not exist, merely that I've never seen them. If all you have are a few hand forms, man, I don't want to destroy any fantasies, but, that's not enough to suggest that Okinawan Karate is merely an "offshoot" of White Crane...no, it's something else entirely, and why does no one in the Karate camp seem willing to accept that?

Billy Pilgrim,

If you do not think that Okinawa Karate is related to Fukien martial arts, then may I know what is your opinion regarding the origin of Okinawa Karate?
Is it a thing exclusive to Okinawans, meaning they developed it?

Instead of rebutting against others' claim and sharing, care to share your experience and knowledge with us then? Think this will be a more productive discussion. Don't ya think so??? :D

[rogue]

You're right Billy, the CMA have had no influence on any other martial arts. Karateka have just been trying to be humble by tracing their origins back to Fukien. Really karate started over 2,000 years ago in Korea and worked it's way back to Okinawa through Japan!

Where is the Chi Gung?
Where are the weapons sets?
Where are the 2 person sets?
Where are the herbs?

So if any CMA is missing any of those things I guess that they're not a CMA?

[nickle]

i would suggest to you guys to go read dr Yang's book, "the essence of shoalin white crane"

it shows some links between the 2

ciao

-specialization is for ants-

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Karate (Tode/etc.) is just a partial transmition of Chinese martial arts, less than 50% IMHO and I have not seen anyone with any true understanding of the arts principles (martial). Perhaps Ron can prove us wrong now by listing them as preserved by the Okinawan lineage. My understanding is that only the late "Gokenki" had any real substance of Fukien Bok-Hok kuen, and he learn it in China where he was from originally. All who tried to pick his brain :), after his death, came out with some sort of secret white crane form. Its ammusing. By the way Im still waiting to see someone on Okinawa demonstrate the 36 points, let alone 108. I see so many so called Tuite/Kyushu experts demonstrating their knockout points and poor grappling (Chin na), that I fear the uninformed are truly going to buy this **** as the real transmission. If you Ron, who have been teaching for 30 years or so and are still asking questions on other boards, dont know the answers you seek, then how could you claim anything substantial exsists in Okinawa, where you get your knowledge?

Ron, just one more question, to prove the substantial in okinawa, what is Sam Chien (SanChin) really developing? Please dont answer with general terms like: mind, body, spirit or tell me about float, sink, swallow or spit. Southern style boxers on this forum know more about these than any karate practitioner. Whether they give out the information or not. Please approach this with caution.

One other note, few bought the visits by Okinawans like Miyagi, Matayoshi etc as a search for their roots. THEY WHERE SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS THEY DID NOT HAVE!, The same as the so-called modern researchers. By the Way if it doesnt exsists in your system, then learn another but dont call it Traditional Karate.

[Tsuruken]

For those of you who have welcomed me to this forum, I say thank you.

Sadly it seems that others are somewhat defensive of their own arts and views. While in a way this is understandable, it demonstrates a level of insecurity and stylistic bias that is unwarranted in a forum such as this whose aim is to bring people together, not drive them apart.

I was merely expressing a viewpoint. Not attacking any one individual, his or her views or style.

In the history of the martial arts many seem to think that it is more important who one learned from rather than what was actually being taught. The Old-Style teachers imparted their own personal knowledge to help learners develop according to the disciple’s age, individual personality, character, and physical skills.

As such, two from the same school would not learn or do things the same way as each other despite studying under the same master. This is why so many versions of the same kata have been passed down. The standardization of techniques, kata and other practices was never part of old ways or teachings.

As a person and researcher, I (by that of my own personal choice) am no longer connected to any one style or organization.

One thing that I have “discovered’ from my personal research into the Chinese and Okinawan Crane-Fist traditions was that one teacher even within the same style never taught the same thing. Each would teach certain things at different times mainly due to their own needs, age, social climate, knowledge, understanding and trust of the person being taught I have heard some less senior students say "He's changing things all the time. It’s changed again!"
The simple truth is nothing has changed other then the teacher has introduced a different level of the same form, technique or practice as the student grew in his/her own understanding. The more an instructor matures and grows within his art the more he comes to understand the essence of the art and the more insightful, creative and expressive he's likely to be in his teaching to others.

My research to this current point in time has led me to find that only a handful of real, classical old style kata have been passed down reasonably intact. What’s more important is to realise that it’s not the actual forms that are important but the original spirit, essence and intent which gave rise to them.

However to answer the issues raised:

In describing Crane-Boxing, Shihequan (Feeding Crane-Fist) Master Lio Chin-Long stated: "We, in Shihequan, are Feeding Crane. Behave like that crane. Eat attacker bit by bit. Eat his eyes, ears, throat. Always move for final kill. Absorb any skills that may help you - because it's Feeding Crane - the style to which anything can be absorbed, if it serves as means of defence”.

Based primarily upon the teachings of Yabiku Takaya Sensei (Okinawa), Sifu Yap Leong, Feeding Crane-Fist Adviser Shifu Paul Wollos of the Lio Family style (Taiwan) and Ron Goninan's own personal experiences, Butoryu Tsuruken strives for the essence of Tsuruken (Crane Boxing) via the paragon that is kata. Great emphasis is placed upon two-man drills involving looking in-depth into kata applications that involve life-protection against not only standard techniques but also common acts of everyday violence which plagues our fast-paced society.

It should be observed that there exists several distinctive characteristics and principles which serve to embody Hakutsuruken (White Crane-Fist) as taught within China's Middle Kingdom and the Ryukyu Island's of Okinawa.

The hourglass-like "Battle Kamae", ghost-like step and slide like body shifting motions unrelenting in their forward motions, centred and energy-filled postures, scattered hitting (Shan Da), point striking (Dian Xue), the method of intercepting energy and grappling/seizing/capturing skills (Jieqi Qin-na), bridge-arms which project outward from the centre-line, and techniques in which the practitioner extends the arms like the unfurling of a crane's wings and one-legged stances are all signature characteristics of Crane-Fist Boxing.

Butoryu Tsuruken basics look very simple and is best taught in the context of one-on-one training known as Tingxun (courtyard training). There are actually very few of them. However, it takes a good deal of practice to achieve a real power in them. Power used in Butoryu © Tsuruken cannot be muscular. All movements are performed with complete relaxation. At the beginning students are required to perform them without any power, in sort of soft, loose movement. This way the "life power" (as opposed to "dead power" of some other Chinese, Japanese and Okinawan martial arts) can be achieved.

There are 5 major basic techniques in Butoryu © Tsuruken. Each is named after the 5 elements of traditional Chinese philosophy:

1. Jinshou / Metal Hands - performed using strike with the top of the hands and seen in the opening of the forms.

2. Mushou / Wood Hands - striking with the fingertips.

3. Shueishou / Water Hands - using outer and forward movement of inner parts of forearms and hands.

4. Huoshou / Fire Hands - palm strike, similar to Gojuryu's Mawashi-uke, but differing in it's finishing aspects.

5. Tushou / Earth Hands - fists strike.

From here, all other methods and variations are developed and the encouragement of refinement (Li-Jing) is then pursued. The aim being to seek knowledge (Qi-Zhi).

Stances are always in motion, constantly searching the earth for ground-reaction-energy in a manner similar to riding a bicycle … an ever-changing relationship between the Yin and the Yang:-

· Huyepo / Huyao pu - Tiger Waist Stance, similar to karate's zenkutsu dachi, serving as an entering movement (irimi in Japanese).

· Chitiao liongpo / Yitiao long bu - Single Dragon Stance: a sideways position, it can be triangle stance or horse stance performed sideways; serves to shift body to evade or enter the attack. Often used in connection to the Fan-Pal and Tile Palm Strike of the Nanquan (Southern-Fists) styles.

· Tokapo / Tujiao bu - Singe Leg/Empty Stance: Identical to karate's neko-ashi-dachi; serving as a “Body-Change” or evasion movement.

· Guniampo / Guniam bu - Girl Stance: same as a Triangle Horse Stance and the Single Dragon Stance but smaller in length. A very effective stance!

Body movements are closely related to stances, movements include forward, backwards, sidewards and angled movements using a step and slide motion, pivoting movements, changing stance from front to side jumping movements as bouncing away from rapidly attacking opponent, and counter-attacking while landing. Butoryu © Tsuruken movements are done fast, with rapid advancement or withdrawal and body-shifting.

In the eyes of the Butoryu © stylist, kicking techniques harkens back to olden times on Okinawa when kicks were kept within arms reach. This perhaps comes from times when older Chinese methods of kicking were used. Snapping low kicks are very effective in their nature, and this method is used to great advantage within the Butoryu © Tsuruken style.

Additionally to forms (Quan / Kata), Butoryu © Tsuruken also uses "pre-forms combinations (Xin). These are just basic techniques performed in series of movements. This system ensures an organised approach to mastery of not only the individual movements, but also the fighting theory (known as “Crane-Thinking” or “Crane-Mind”) and real-world life-protection applications of the form.

All White Crane-Fist forms embody the following “essentials”: Sinking, Swallowing, Floating, Spitting, Lifting, Rebounding, and most importantly of all Softness (“Rou-Jin”) and Listening (“Ting Jin” …. reading the opponents intentions and energy).

Butoryu © Tsuruken contains all the essential qualities and essence of other Crane styles. In order to feed, crane must be able to fly, whoop, and rest. All of which is held within the Butoryu Tsuruken style. Methods of using the Crane's voice (He Sheng) are also explored (He Ming).

Great emphasis is placed upon establishing a symbiosis of all these concepts within the practitioner so that they are not only a part of the art as the art is a part of them.

We have found that it is impossible to standardise people as they vary from individual to individual, as do the methods by which to instruct them in the ways of the martial arts. Personalities and the interaction they bring with them constantly changes. Therefore the essence and essentials become far more important than the way in which one appears to the casual observer. This is, something that sadly many modern current martial arts practitioners and instructors seem to have forgotten.

We don’t have hundreds and hundreds of kata/hsing (forms). "It is better to plow deep in a small garden than to plow lightly in a large garden, for a better crop will grow in the small garden". Forms such as Paipuren, Zhang Dou He-Quan, Nipaifu, Neipai-Chen (Er shi ba bu) all are almost entirely identical in form, substance, essence and teaching s to that of the Chinese traditions from which they arose. In brief, the kata we have are those we know internally including the myriad of applications they yield.

Chi-kung (Naika) is an integral aspect of the training.

As for schools on Okinawa that maintain and actively teach Chinese-based aspects related strongly to White Crane ... it is not my place or intention to name all as certian people wish to remain unknown. However to name but a few, my own instructor, Mr. Yabiku Takaya of Sikina, Aoyama, Okinawa, Mr. Wong O'gan Pyon of Futenma, Mr. Gakiya, Mr. Nishihira, the Koshiro family etc.

To state that Okinawan arts do not have any real or verifiable link to Chinese Quanfa and Crane-Fist in particular is extremely narrow-minded. The Okinawan's more so than the Japanese, have always strobgly identified and given recognition to Chinese traditions and arts in a great deal of their own culture, martial arts and lifestyle. One has only to visit Kunida/Kumemura to see this.

If we look to China we can see that such traditions had a far-reaching impact upon the early civil defensive arts of Okinawa and it's people.Okinawa's long standing & symbiotic liaison with China is proof of this. I also believe that the concept of applying defensive principles to weapon-usable objects (as seen in Okinawan Karate/Kobudo (quanfa)was heavily Chinese influenced. To ignore outright the unique and profound influence that island culture and Ryukyu anthropology has had upon the evolution of quanfa would be a gross misrepresentation of the obvious. The practice of Okinawan Karate as we know it, unfolded from the various kinds of Quanfa introduced from various places in China (mainly Fujian).

To say that Chinese-based Crane-Fist does not exist on Okinawa is to adopt the all-too-common "Ostrich-Stance" seen within the martial arts world (head in the sand, bum exposed!).

Regards,


:)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Ron, your rather long cut & paste post contains alot of nice name dropping but now please answer my question on Sam Chien, this is one of the oldest forms found in Okinawa, next to Naihanchin and Seisan. I'm sure a qualified teacher of white crane boxing can answer this, especially since no Fukien Shaolin derived system is without some version of this form. Even Southern Mantis call's its version Sam Bo Chien.

Also, please dont take offense but in CMA forums people always get more defensive towards non-CMA practioners, especially Karate-ka who constantly remind everyone of the uselessness of flowery movements in CMA. Most people will welcome you after discovering what your INTENTIONS HERE are?
Especially after seeing your site and your"BORG" mentality towards White Crane in the past few years. You dont think we check out non-CMA boards?

[Tsuruken]

Sir,

Sam Chien : (Dependant on the myriad of variations of this form that exist) The form itself is linked a popular yet unconfirmed story of folklore believes that it was the monk “Bodiharma” who developed the form as a means of training the spiritual recluses residing at the now famous Shaolin Temple. There may be some ‘substance’ within this tale of lore as the form did not embody combative principles until adopted for same by the Shaolin Temple monks. We do know that one version known as Paipuren can be traced to the ancient Daoist (“Way”) priests of China. Paipuren was originally used to charge the body bio-electrically with “Qi” to develop, internalise and expel “Qi” (internal energy). It teaches an unification of the mental, physical and spiritual aspects of man and is sometimes known as the “three wars” or “battles” because of this aspect. On a defensive level, Paipuren uses the techniques of deflection, trapping, seizing, joint-locks, neck breaks, and piercing strikes to pressure points. Like most Southern Chinese Crane-Fist forms Paipuren stress the use of the ‘pidgeon-toed’ stance emphasising stability and resiliency. Regarded as being a “San-nen Kata” (three year kata) meaning it should be practiced every day for three years stating Paipuren “means Ju (soft) suppresses Go (hard0.

In brief, Saamchien teaches about the summation of total joint forces and muscular pliability and the natural laws of motion. It also embodies the core concepts of Sink, Swallow, Float and Sink which lie at the heart of He-Quanfa.

Regarding Naifuanchin and Seishan, Let me ask you a question: please tell me which Chinese martial arts these forms arose from?

I don't take offence to be questioned by others and in fact respect that of Chinese Martial Arts practitioners as my art has it's roots in Chinese Martial Arts. In fact, my view is that Chinese Martial Arts are not "flowery" but extremely effective defensive arts.

I do however, take offence to your tone. "Name-dropping", "Borg mentality" etc. If you don't like me then simply say so as if you were saying so directly to my face.

I do not know you therefore I cannot really comment on you, your art or yourself as a person one way or the other.

But if I was to base my entire opinion or view of you based upon the "Welcome" you have extended to me here then it would not be in the positive.

But then again, as stated, I do not know you so I will reserve and keep my views and opinions to myself.

It was not my intention to assert my "knowledge" (which is relative to the individual) on you or anyone else.

This was simply to start an interesting, non-offensive discussion with other like-minded people. I have no intentions of entering into a pointless "flame-war" with you or anyone else.

If you do not respect my view that's fine. that is your right. but please do so with some honour and decorum instead of name-calling and negativity.

Regards

;)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Tsuruken]

Lineage:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Tsuruken]

The following are just a few who were influnced by Fukien He-Quanfa:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Tsuruken]

The Attached image shows Yabiku Takaya Sensei applying the Crane Opens Wings to Ron Goninan from the Kokuokakuken form. The technique shown on this photo is Gimchiu - a variation of Metal Hands, performed larger. The vibration must be developed in order to perform larger or smaller techniques.

:)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[joedoe]

Ron,

I practice Wu Chu Chuan (5 ancestor fist) in Sydney and we have as one of our foundation styles white crane. We also practice the sam chien form in various guises - there are different sam chien form depending on which of the 5 foundation styles you wish to focus on, then one for the overall style.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[FIRE HAWK]

http://tamago000.tripod.com/hist.html

[FIRE HAWK]

The Fukien Shaolin Hakutsuru Style, or White Crane

There are several Chinese forms of the name "Hakutsuru" in different dialects: Pai Hao Q'uan, Peh Ho Kuen, Peh Hok, Bak Hok, Pak Hok, Bai He Q'uan and He Q'uan. Other names of it are the Southern Five Elder Style (Wu Zu Q'uan or Five Ancestors Fist), and the Yong Chun Style, pronounced Weng Chun in Cantonese. To understand the origins of Hakutsuru, we must understand the revolutionary period in China, so we will give a brief overview here. Hakutsuru was probably originally formed right before or after the 1673 destruction of the Fukien Shaolin Temple. It became THE Shaolin style after that time. In other words, it was essentially Hakutsuru that the original Shaolin Five Animal style developed into. The remnants of the practitioners from the Shaolin Temple during the remainder of the Ching Dynasty refined and modified the style after the destruction. Many of them probably had to flee the area, as so many legends claim. However, most went into hiding, staying around the Fukien Shaolin area trying to organize their forces. Whether or not the temple was ever rebuilt or not after that time is a matter of conjecture, and cannot be proven one way or another yet. While there are traditions that indicate the temple was rebuilt, nothing is conclusive. In Bushi Matsumura's case, it doesn't matter if he actually studied in the temple, or at the temple site. Either way it is the same for us. Perhaps further archaeological research may shed light on whether it was rebuilt or not now that the temple site has been discovered. Anyway, many other temples from the area had input into the Hakutsuru system including Taoist ones. Hakutsuru became strongly influenced by Monk (Lohan) Fist and Tiger Boxing. In contrast to Hakutsuru, which became the mainstream Shaolin style, there were many other branch styles from it that popped up all over the place, because there were some who left the Shaolin temple area during the revolutionary period. They went on their own to start many other styles based on Haktusuru, such as Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, etc. To not get confused here, it will be important to understand that there are TWO separate styles known by the name of Yong Chun. One is the Haktusuru, and the other is the Wing Chun style taught by Yip Man, the teacher of Bruce Lee. Yip Man's Wing Chun is NOT Haktusuru, but it does have its roots in it, as do other revolutionary styles. It is just by chance that Yip Man's style happened to be known by that same name up until modern times. His style was not the original that was called by that name. Much legendary material that present day practitioners of Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Choy Li Fut, and other revolutionary period styles attribute to the origins of their respective styles actually have more to do with the origins of Haktusuru. Most practitioners of Hakutsuru during the revolutionary period were rebels. Some people believe that the originators of Hakutsuru may have chosen the name Yong Chun ("Evergreen", "Always Green", or "Always Spring") for various reasons:

(1) It was the name of a village near Fukien Shaolin, and that village apparently had a lot to do with the Fukien Shaolin martial arts. The monks apparently named their training hall this same name.
(2) The name Shaolin means "Small Forest", and pine trees are "evergreens." So the name served as a way to hide the Shaolin origins of the art, but still show the essential symbolism of Shaolin.
(3) The rebels had mottos and phrases such as "Overthrow the Ching and restore the Ming!" Some believe that the name Yong Chun was part of one of these revolutionary phrases: "Always speak with determination. Don't forget the Han Nation. Spring will be back again." Spring, in this case, refers to the time when the Ming would be restored.
Which one of these three explanations is correct? I would bet that all of them are, because they all make quite a lot of sense.

The history of the Hakutsuru style is mixed up with myth and is quite obscure. In spite of that fact, hopefully we will be able to come to some conclusions. There are some legends about it that may shed light on its origins.
The first major legend about the Yong Chun Style is that of the Five Elders (Ancestors) of Shaolin:
The Shaolin order was politically neutral most of the time, but in the 1640's, the much-hated Manchu (Ching) dynasty began. The cruelty of the Manchu made Shaolin reconsider its position. In about 1647, the Honan Shaolin Temple was utterly destroyed by the Manchu. Most of the monks were killed, but a few monks fled to the Fukien Shaolin Temple (some believe this took place in 1570. The problem with that date is that the Ming was still in power at that time. It appears that it was the Manchu that did it. The reasons that the Manchu would have done it make a lot more sense. Other legends allege that it took place not long after the Manchu took over.) Among those that fled to Fukien Shaolin were the most influential Shaolin masters. They brought the precious martial art books from the Shaolin Library with them. As a result of all this, the status of the Fukien temple changed, and it became the new Headquarters of the Shaolin order. It was a better base for anti-Manchu activities, because it was a strategic location.

The Fukien Temple became part of the rebellion almost immediately after the destruction of Honan. They allowed Ming officials to take refuge there to protect them. That is another issue. Why would they have given them refuge if the Ming just destroyed Honan Shaolin? They would not have. Therefore, it is much more likely that the Manchu did it.

YOU CAN READ THE REST OF THE ARTICLE AT THE WEBSITE
http://tamago000.tripod.com/hist.html

[joedoe]

Fire Hawk,

Interesting, but Pek Ho and Wu Chu Chuan are two different (but similar) styles. Admittedly there is a very strong Pek Ho influence in Wu Chu Chuan, but they are not the same style.

Wu Chu Chuan encompasses 5 arts (as the name suggests): Pek Ho (white crane), Monkey, Boddhidharma style, Lohan boxing, and Tai Chor(first Sung [I think] emperor style).

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[FIRE HAWK]

I know the two styles are not the same,it is the article that says that they are.I know that Ngo Cho Kun is different than fukien White crane.

[Self-Thinking Follower]

WRONG ANSWER! alot of generalizations like mind, body, spirit, Sink, float, Swallow and Spit and legendary Tamo stories, Oh My! But you dont know!

Nice attempt to get me to give you some info? But I wont! So go back to the Goju boards and your source Mr.Wollos, In Taiwan, whom just recently gave you your knowledge of these adorable terms.

You came to the wrong board, just read the posts around here, they get vicious and are prime troll threads. And yet you came to make friends? Oh My! You came only when White Crane became a subject because you want the missing answers that cant be found on Okinawa! Otherwise why come to the most notorious board for internet wars on cyberspace.

Another guy, just like you initialed R.H. of Mantis was butchered here, while trying your same tactics, but at least you have the HONOR of using your real name. I dont dislike you Ron, I just got this real bad cancer that eats at me. I should find help, hey can you recommend a white crane healer in Okinawa?

My apologies to the administration and regular posters of this board for having lowered myself to this, I guess we are human and my humanity has been silently watching Ron absorb inormation on white crane through the various discussion boards and then seeing it posted on his site as if it was there all along like something he already knew. He took his lumps like a good sport on the Canadian Goju-ryu board where some well known teachers of Karate, gave it to him. So now maybe he needs non-karate friends?

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Well folks could'nt let this go, I dont have stylistic Bias, I do have stylistic preferences!
But then again I am not copyrighting my tradition or creating a new system of which I can be all knowing and never answering. I dont use silly terms and titles of a language I dont speak and claim to be a researcher of traditional courtyard "paragons" of dance, to include in my classical mess. Nor do I plagiarize the research of others.

Prove your worth, Sam Sup Lok dim ? or
Sup Sam Sai?

[Self-Thinking Follower]

I agreed with Mo Q

[joedoe]

Fire Hawk,

Sorry, no offence intended. I just wanted to clear it up for anyone else who was reading.

Self Thinker,

Why do you have such a problem with Ron? What did he say that p*sses you off so badly?

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[Tsuruken]

My answer regarding Saamchin is wrong by whose standards? Yours? I learnt and teach a particular form known as Paipuren (Also "Happoren). This is a form from the Minghequan (Whooping Crane) style and uses the "Kiuh sau" or Bridge Hands as either a isometric breathing exercise or to connect and bridge the distance between two exponents.

This "Bridge Hands" can take the form of "Jo wahn yauh kiuh" or Soft Bridge displacing the opponent to the side of the body (Body-Change).

The form also uses the "Jauh leiuih chohng fa" or "Flower hidden in Sleeves" in the form of a twin open palm edge strike.

Yabiku Sensei stated that the Paipuren form also develops "Turtle Breathing".

Sir, just becuse my 'knowledge' or lack of does not equate with that or your own does not mean that I am wrong, merely that I hold true to a different view. What's wrong with that?

I don't want to 'steal' your knowledge. I am happy within myself as a person.

You on the other hand, I have never met or corresponded with in any great detail but you seem to be an extremely sad, lonely, and insecure individual, unhappy with your self to the point that you are aggressive and arrogant to others.

Yes, I was involved on the Goju board in mention. I make no secret about this. But I found that its members were to quick to jump the gun, dealing only in the negative and the ego-centred aspects. So I left. Nothing wrong with this as it was a matter of personal choice.

I don't need the answers on this board (or any other). As far as Okinawa is concerned, I found many answers while I was on the island. I also found many questions. Since my time on Okinawa, I have found many more answers both martial and personal.

I came here to this board to share, discuss and learn. Perhaps you may like to give this a go?

Self-Thinking Follower, no need for special healing from Okinawa. You already have the answer to your own issues.

Paul Wollos is a good friend of mine and an adviser to my school. He frequently imparts knowledge to me. Nothing wrong with this as this is how we learn and grow. He is a good man.

Self-Thinking Follower, have the HONOUR to sign your name to your future posts. I shall no longer answer your posts or engage in your extremely childish and petty behaviour and attepmts to justify yourself as a person of honour, respect and self-worth.

As for Rogue, Fire Hawk, Moq, Abandit etc, thank you for your welcome to this board. I hope that I can continue to join your discussions and share and learn.

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Ron you NEVER answered my post!

YOU WANT TO SHARE?

1. 36 Points (Name the lesser 18 if You dont know
all)

2. 13 Postures (The most popular form before
Pinan were developed - name them)

3. 3 battles- (Hint: Teet Kap, Teet Kiu and ?)

Lets go Ronnie Boy- SHARE, SHARE, SHARE, SHARE!

CUT THE BS, YOU NEED ANSWERS

[Self-Thinking Follower]

"Sadly, commercial explotation has necessitated a myriad of eclectic interpretations and along with this "progress" the very essence upon which these fighting traditions rest, has either vanished or been compromised."

According to you, is this speaking of Okinawa's lineage of white Crane? It's not true for the Fukienese. Perhaps you do need Answers, HUH Ron?

Yes Ron we all have EGO, yours is displayed with a Red/White belt and a copyright. Hey nice chinese terms, I've seen them before IN PRINT and what? No Chinese term for U Gwai Hei....OOOps - Turtle Breathing. Not something I've heard.....SHARE, SHARE, SHARE!

Ron,

I appreciate the time you take to write and share your knowledge with this board. I am sorry for the way Mr. Self Thinking Follower is treating you.
Nonetheless, I suggest we move on to a more constructive topic where we can freely share without any negativism? How's that?
Good day mate.

:)

Integraman

[Tsuruken]

Integraman,

Hello and thank you for the warm welcome! :)

I agree with your views completely.

Sadly there will always be those jealous adversaries who will stop at nothing to put others down to satisfy their own ego's and agendas. It's a sad fact that stems from an even more pathetic sickness :(

Moving on, tell me a little more about yourself and your views regarding the subject of if Okinawan Di was influenced or not by the Chinese cultural and civil fighting traditions.

I cannot speak for other styles, but I see a tremendous influence in that which I was taught. The thing most noticeable is the way in which the Okinawan's themselves regard Chinese Quanfa. They hold it in high esteeem, constantly referencing that the Chinese did this or that and this is what "real karate" is. They seem to have a strong distaste towards the Japanese and sadly even some Americans, mainly I think due to the Japanese occupation and govern of the islands and the American Service bases (Futenma, Kadena etc) and the infusion of American customs into that of their own. Of course, I'm talking here of the traditional Okinawan Sensei and not your everday person. I think that the rape of a young girl by two service men some years ago has had a profound impact upon the normally receptive and peaceful Okinawan's.

Certian schools on Okinawa such as Ko Uehara's Goju (Naha-shi), Akio Kinjo's Chinese Bidengen Karatedo (Naha-shi), Tetsuhiro Hokama's Gojuryu Kyoshikai (Nishihira), Seikou Itokazu's Hanko-Nan-ryu (Naha-shi), Gakiya Sensei's Matayoshi-Ryu (Naha-shi) Tsugo Sakumoto's Ryuei-ryu (Naha-shi), Iken Tokashiki's Gohakukai (Naha-shi) and Yabiku Masakatsu Sensei's Shinken Yaezan Kenpo Odokai (Shinkawa) all strongly acknowledge the influence of Chinese Gongfu on not only Okinawan Karatedo/Kobudo but also aspects of their own arts.

Hope to hear more from you soon,

Regards,


:)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[inyo]

i'd like to express my appreciation re your recent posts.i have found them to be informative and stimulating. my own experience in training in the martial arts ,(chinese, japanese and okinawan)has given me a great deal of respect for all three cultures and their particular expression of things martial.sadly i have found a nos of posts on these forums to be extremely disrespectful and disparaging towards karate,the majority of these comments are ignorant generalisations. i have been fortunate enough to study ''inyo ryu ''kempo a combination of chinese technique and japanese budo.there are (to my knowledge)only three schools in the world--the hombu dojo under grandmaster harayama in kyoto japan,shihan fujimoto's in auckland new zealand and another in dusseldorf--germany--shihan hirena.the style is soft,sharp and circular as opposed to the linnear and more harder karate practised in japan(i'm also aware of the circular movements practised in other styles of karate).one of the things strongly emphasised in my training was that our style was "CHINESE''and great reverence was paid to china even though my master and the martial philosophy taught were essentially japanese.the thing that i have taken with me from my training and that has been integrated into my "self''is the cultivation of my spirit and i believe that this is a direct influence from having a japanese master.it is something that i treasure and value highly.my exposure to japan has also given a great love of karate,of its beauty and power.i have been fortunate enough to see demonstrations of ibuki,tamashaweri,kata and kumite--in 1984 at a dan grading (1st-5th)at the shotokan hombu dojo in tokyo with master nakamura present,in 1987 in kyoto a goju ryu master performed an ibuki exercise (i think it was sanchin kata)it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and my guts turn to water--i thought the roof was shaking such was his power,i have also seen master higoanna (okinawan goju ryu)demonstrate his prowess on one of his many visits to nz.my kempo master (shihan fujimoto)also performed goju kata.many posts on these threads refer to karate as "stiff,rigd,slow..." but the karate i have seen has been graceful,fluid dynamic and beautiful.from my own reading (i do not profess to be as knowledgeable as you)it seems to me that the fusion of "ch'uan fa"(kempo--chinese boxing) and ''okinawan te" became karate,therefore karate is another form of kung fu (just a thought).i now train in 7 stars preying mantis kung fu and really enjoy it and fortunate in that i have found another excellent teacher.--respects--inyo--oossuu!!!

[inyo]

Ron that should be master 'Nakamura"--(shotokan)-it's 4.52 in the a.m.--oossuu!!!zzzzzz :eek: :eek: :eek:

[inyo]

it's nakamura ron and time for bed 4.59-- :eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused: :confused: :D

[inyo]

nakayama :p :p :p

[Tsuruken]

:) Inyo,

Thank you for your input. You've managed to hit the nail right on the head! That's what my post was all abour ... Respect for all cultures that gave rise to the various forms of martial arts seen today.

Sadly, :( far too many today have lost sight of Karate's origins. The Chinese Martial Arts are wonderful! And credit should be given where credit is due.

I am very, very interested in hearing more about INYO RYU KEMPO!!! Do you have any further information, a web site or contact details for Grandmaster Harayama in Kyoto Japan or Shihan Fujimoto in New Zealand??? As you know I am in Australia so i'd like to make contact with the New Zealand group.

Inyo, I'd also welcome closer contact with yourself. Where in Australia are you located???

I'd like to invite you to attend future events of my school. We are working on bring Sifu Yap Leong to Australia later this year and have our International White Crane Gathering in October should you be interested in attending as you and your students would be most welcome!!!

Don't worry about the mistake regarding Nakayama's name as I knew who you were talking about. Besides, we as humans all make mistakes from tiime to time ;)

I hope to hear from you soon. My e-mail is:

tsuruken@hwy.com.au

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[omegapoint]

In reference to your query about the 36 Vital Points-Here's a sample:

Location Meridian Pt. English Nm.
1) Coronal suture GV22 Brain house
2) Frontal fontanel GV24 God's Temple
3) Temples Great Yang
4) Eyes
5) Ears
6) Mastoid Process TH17 Wind Screen
7) Philtrum GV26 Water drain
I think it's obvious that the 36 vital pts. are not priveleged Chinese knowledge (this includes the 3 Battles and 13 Postures also). Trust me when I say that there are many practitioners of the ShuriTe, NahaTe, And TomariTe traditions of the Ryukyu Islands who still consider themselves Shaolin/Crane stylists , and who understand all of the aspects of the principles you outlined in your reply/interrogation. All of this info is contained in the "Bubishi", a link between the Chinese and Okinawan fighting traditions. One of the stories about its origins gives credit to the so-called "36 Families": " The leading city and capital of Okinawa, Naha has absorbed various nearby villages as well as the one time royal capital of Shuri...Kume village...was settled in 1393 by immigrants of China and provided a place where Chinese diplomats resided and where Okinawan nobles could learn the language and manners of China...The enrichment of Okinawan culture was incalcuable.Here men not only learned how to write Chinese and acquire literary arts, but on occassion also taught ship-building,various CRAFTS and the PRACTICING ARTS...Confucian morals,etc..."- Taken from The "Bubishi" as translated by Patrick McCarthy.


The person given credit, by many, of making ToTe into the Hybrid system now known as KaraTe, Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura, studied the Martial Disciplines many years in China, and in Okinawa under a Chinese master by the name of Iwah. Hohan Soken, the founder of my style, was the 3rd generation descendant of the Matsumura family. The Hakutsuru kata and fighting techniques in this style almost mirror those taught in the Southern Chinese Crane systems. My instructor has consulted with various White Crane sifus and there was/is unanimous agreement as to the numerous similarities (and that includes advanced levels/techs).


I could get really in-depth but at the risk of completely plagiarizing the "Bubishi". I'll leave it up to you to do the research. I have been a practitioner of ShorinRyu for 20+ years, and I know for a fact that a yudanshas knowledge of the Crane aspects of KaraTe (in my system- Matsumura Seito Suidi [ShorinRyu]) are comparable to those of a similarly ranked sifu of Fujian White Crane. Many of the Okinawan styles of today emphasize more of the Tiger aspects of Gongfu: hip rotation,
linear, forceful strikes, so on, and have forgotten or lost many of the Crane principles (hip rotation w/ sinking power, whip-like strikes, pressure point application, etc.) due to the Japanization of Karate. For instance the style of Shorin Ryu I train in includes these Forms/Quan/Kata at the advanced levels:

Kata/Quan Origin
Shorinji Sanchin Five Ancestral Fist
So Hakutsuru Fukien White Crane
Tan Hakutsuru Fukien White Crane
Ni Ju Ken (20 Fists) Five Ancestral Fist
Shu Kakutsuru Ancestral Crane
Rokishu Fukien White Crane
Ryushoken Hohan Soken-our founder
Matsumura Hakutsuru Sho Matsumura Family
Matsumura Hakutsuru Chu " "
Shorinji (Shaolin) Chinto Five ancestral fist
Matsumura Hakutsuru Dai Matsumura Family
Mei Hakutsuru Shouting (White) Crane

Even Intermediate level kata such as Rohai ("Vision of a Crane") contain Crane connotations in the name and the technique.

I gotsta' stop typing though, as my hands are beginning to cramp-up from all the **** typing needed to explain something to someone who needs to seek for their **** selves. I hope this clarifies things just a little. If not then maybe if we ever meet at this time of the morning I can test the efficacy of striking your Rabbit Shichen Vital Point (5-7 a.m.)!! j.j. of course..Peace!

[Self-Thinking Follower]

The Okinawan Bubishi..... :D :D :D

[Tsuruken]

Dear "Omegapoint",

Thank you for sharing your views.

I have just a couple of friendly questions if I may:

1). What is your name as you did not sign your post?

2). Who is your teacher?

You mentioned the following kata in your post:

Kata/Quan Origin
Shorinji Sanchin Five Ancestral Fist
So Hakutsuru Fukien White Crane
Tan Hakutsuru Fukien White Crane
Ni Ju Ken (20 Fists) Five Ancestral Fist
Shu Kakutsuru Ancestral Crane
Rokishu Fukien White Crane
Ryushoken Hohan Soken-our founder
Matsumura Hakutsuru Sho Matsumura Family
Matsumura Hakutsuru Chu " "
Shorinji (Shaolin) Chinto Five ancestral fist
Matsumura Hakutsuru Dai Matsumura Family
Mei Hakutsuru Shouting (White) Crane

Respectfully, Shorinji Sanchin is not a Five Ancestors Fist (Ngo Cho kun/Wu zhuquan form.

So and Ton/Tan Hakutsuru were kata handed on by Mr. Tony sandoval who claims he learnt them from one So Oho.

I believe the "Nijuken" you refer to is that as done by Mr. Ronald Lindsey. This is not the Lip Sip Kun of Five Ancestors tradition.

Ryushoken has no connection what so ever to the Machimura Suidi art in its ancient or modern form. The kata "Ryushoken" is based on a Chitoryu kata called Ryusan or "Dragon Mountain".

Matsumura Hakutsuru Sho and Chu are modern inventions of no connection to the Machimura/Soken tradition. There is only one Machimura Hakutsuru and it is strongly related to the Shihequan or Feeding Crane tradition as taught not in Southern China but in Taiwan. Soken Hohan was visited by several Taiwanese Crane-Fist boxers up to near the time of his death and it is here that the connection and origins of the Machimura Hakutsuru are to be found.

Mei Hakutsuru; Again a modern creation with no substantiated and proven connection to the Matsumura/Soken tradition.

Shorinji Chinto and Five Ancestors Fist???

I mean no disrepect other than to simply state the facts as I know them to be.

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[omegapoint]

Mr. Goninan I hope you get a chance to read this. I know my reply is late, but I've been busy and have just recently seen your comments. My sensei Mr. Ronald Lindsey, has been studying the Okinawan MAs for over 30 years now, and is considered a recognized, very high ranking practitioner of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu (as you are probably aware of). His Matsumura Hakutsuru Shorin Ryu creation/organization, although taken from the principles of Matsumura Suidi,is nonetheless, the product of his countless years of research and training on his own, and under the direction of Fuse Kise, Seizan Kinjo, and on occasion Hohan Sokon. The origin or lineage of the Hakutsuru kata I listed were deduced by him (and various high ranking Chinese and Okinawan practitioners) to be of the schools of thought listed.

I know very little of the NahaTe derived arts, and know even less about your style/organization. From what I have seen though, many NahaTe styles (with the possible exception of Uechi-Ryu) tend to be a stylized form of physical fitness, and seem to have very little modern practical applicability. After taking a peek at your applications page, this idea was reinforced when I saw the length and depth of the stances you used in your fighting techniques (among other idiosyncracies). Although Northern Crane styles emphasize long, deep stances, Southern styles place more emphasis on "natural" stances which are better suited for an actual confrontation. I don't want to judge your style (your MODERN style)of Karate though, as I may be totally ignorant of the fact that you just may have invented the original Crane art that is the foundation of all karate!

Why would I not trust someone who has demonstrated the efficacy of his art to me countless times? Why would I trust the word of a sensei who gets on forums and the net to plug his "art"? My teacher is extremely humble and gets little financial compensation for dispensing his knowledge to eager students. You must seek him out. He doesn't ask for students, but somehow they are always seeking his instruction. Countless individuals from around the world have trained with and under him, and none that have trained with/under him have anything but positive things to say about his demeanor, knowledge and technique.

Additionally he is not only an outstanding empty-hands practitioner, but his kobudo/kobujutsu forms are taught in the majority of the Ryukyuan based schools in Texas and many other states.

All the academics aside, I consider myself a wordly martial artist who has practiced numerous striking and grappling arts, and although your voluminous history, and use of terms is impressive, I'm of the impression that it may be little more than window dressing, but then again I could be prejudging. I do have an unfavorable bias for the ShuriTe/TomariTe derived styles, and have found the Shorei styles to be nothing but perpetuators of hypertension and early death.

So, don't strain yourself anytime soon. That aneurysm may burst, or you could "throw a clot" and suffer a major CVA. It also seems odd that all your flowery language and supposed history didn't convince anyone on this KungFu forum. Your style may go down in the annals of KFO history as being a not so distant cousin of Shaolin Do! By the way is "learnt" a proper Modern English word? I must not speak proper Vulgarian. G'day Mate,if it smells like fish, throw it on the barbie!!! Please...

So, and one more clarification, the Kata I listed were from Sensei Lindsey's Matsumura Hakutsuru Shorin, and not from Matsumura ShuriTe. Maybe I didn't make that clear in my original reply. In fact I am a practitioner of Matsumura Seito (not Hakutsuru) but the Hakutsuru of China is evident in the application of forms and techs in Matsumura Orthodox (whip kicks, sinking power, etc.).

P.S.:
This isn't some fascist run forum. Anonymity is respected here, and I have a feeling you know my name, so why play stupid? Maybe you're not playing! Neither am I. Be careful when you attack a person's art. Those who attack first are usually cowards, and intelligent people can see through the illusion-casting of defensive or unprovoked belligerence.

I won't give you my name but I will say that my styles organization - Kokusai Shuri-Te Karate Kobujutsu Rengo Kai - bears an uncanny resemblance to your orgs name. How long has it been around? Love, peace and wombat grease!!!

[gojumaster]

Omegapoint,

As a long-time practitioner of Goju-ryu and dabbler in other Naha / Fukien traditions, I have to say that Mark Bishop's claims of Sanchin's detrimental effects have really colored the popular perception of this form in the Goju tradition. The truth is that if you are doing Sanchin wrong, you really aren't doing "Sanchin" as Miyagi Chojun probably intended, and you can hurt yourself.

Most of the so-called Shorei (Naha) styles: Goju, Uechi, Ryuei, To'on, etc. follow the Fujian model almost exactly:
Warmups, Stretching & Chi kung (Junbi Undo)
Iron Body (Kotekitae)
Strengthening with Implements (Hojo Undo)
Sanchin Principles of movement and structure
Advanced Kata (often following numerical paradigm)
Push Hands / Sticky Hands (Kakie, etc.)
Two-man forms (added by Toguchi Seikichi and Yagi Meitoku)
Emphasis on Chin-na (Bunkai)
Weapons forms (Missing, but many Goju practitioners adopted the Matayoshi Kobudo method to fill in this gap)

But returning to Sanchin being dangerous, it is true that Goju Sanchin doesn't exactly follow the Fujian model, it is very close if you learn it under a good teacher. Unfortunately, many teachers aren't so good...

Sincerely,

Russ

[omegapoint]

Thanks for the civil discourse, man. I didn't mean to disparage Goju as a whole, and only wanted to point out the shortcomings in Mr. Goninan's NahaTe/Chinese derived art. The way that you responded to my comment is definitely the way we should exchange info on this forum. My sensei also practiced NahaTe and there are more similarities than differences among the Okinawan MAs, and with all MAs as a whole.

I still don't understand why he tried to attack my styles credibility, especially since I didn't initiate the disagreement. On the contrary I was agreeing with him on the significance of Fujian White Crane as it's related to the Rykyuan fighting traditions.

The Chinese practitioners have to realize, also, that Okinawan Ti(te) was a significant contributor to the hybridization of Chinese-based Okinawan styles. That is a reason for a lot of the "discrepancies" seen in the Okinawan forms. The GongFu practitioners should be flattered that their fighting traditions have had a profound effect, not only on Chinese history, but the history of the Far East as a whole. They should take the comparisons and historical facts as a compliment. Remember, nothing exists in a void!

It's true that many of those claiming to be practitioners of traditional Karate may look and seem to be the antithesis of their Chinese counterparts, but there are a few Okinawan styles and stylists that adhere strongly to many of the original principles that KungFu/Ti masters such as Machimura (Matsumura) Sokon learned in China/Okinawa then passed on to subsequent generations. I know for a fact that the organizer of Matsumura Seito, Hohan Soken, was the grandnephew of Matsumura, and a direct instructor of my sensei.

To make a long reply short: I apologize to any adherents of the NahaTe tradition I may have offended,as we are all "lights of Shaolin".

P.S. Mr. Goninan as to your Butoryu:
In Filipino (Tagalog) BUTO=*****
So I guess your art can be translated to mean "The deadly art of ****-Fighting" !!! :eek:

[omegapoint]

BUTO=Male sexual organ,
therefore Butoryu (copyright) must be the deadly art of Kockfighting (I know the sp. is incorrect)!
:eek:

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Omegapoint, I believe Okinawans are due credit for the development of a unique hybrid fighting culture but I have never seen any Okinawan demonstrate some of the white crane knowledge the Fukienese have done for me. I still hold to what is only my opinion, although shared among some CMA practitioners, that they only got tidbits from the Chinese. I must also warn that any nei or hei gung training (including Samchien), must be properly done under the watchfull eye of a practitioner who has SUCESSFULLY obtained those skills.


For example, in one Cantonese system, If little details, like a wide, tightly wound sash to stop the hei from going past the waist is ignored, you could'nt, over time, pack the hei in the upper body to develop the Iron Vest of Samchien. Also in Naha styles, they slap the body to check what? muscles? Sorry thats not it, there are certain points struck for the development of this Vest only one of the three "Irons".

:D

[Tsuruken]

Dear "Omegapoint",

I reiterate, I mean you no disrespect other than to simply state the facts as I know them to be.

I am sorry but I genuinely do not know who you are despite your claims that I do. I am sorry but I fail to see any connection although I am sure that you are sincere in your approach to the martial arts and your beliefs.

I was simply asking a number of questions and making a number of statements based upon my own admittingly limited knowledge of the "state of play" regarding the so-called "Okinawan Crane-Fist" scene in America.

I was not 'attacking" you nor your Instructor. You seem to have taken the matter extremely personally and responded with in my opinion, some rather immature, petty and childish 'statements'. For this I am truly sorry.

However and seeing that you have chosen to raise several matters, I shall now respond with known and documented fact.

I shall respond to your statements in the numerical order written, please check with your copy to verify:

1/. I am indeed aware of Mr. Ronald Lindsey.I have (in the past) sought him out. In fact, I received a 'certificate' from Mr. Lindsey's then "Matsumura Hakutsuru Karate Jutsu Kyokai" dated 2-1-96, number #009 and signed by him and allegedly Mr. Tony Sandoval (listed as "Chief Instructor" for same). I state "allegedly" as Mr. Sandoval (a good friend) has issued a statement (on file) that the 'signature' attributed to him is in fact not his and is a fraud (his words, not mine). Mr. Lindsey was paid a reasonable amount of money by me for a series of his video tapes on his Hakutsuru which never arrived (payment details on file). So much for his "little financial compensation" as stated by yourself.

2/. Moving on, Mr. Lindsey has been in contact with Mr. Yabiku Takaya on Okinawa within the past in several attempts to have Mr. Yabiku certify his rank and head or advise for Mr. Lindsey's organization. I know as I have read Mr. Lindsey's letters to Mr. Yabiku and in fact have several on file.

3/. At one time not too long ago, Mr. Lindsey was a member and "Technical Advisor/Chief Instructor" for Mr. Chuck Chandler's USA Konan-Ryu Kohokan and in fact produced several videos in conjuction with Mr. Chandler and his Pine Tree/Resources Unlimited Group. I have seen and have in my possession ALL of these tapes (including those depicting Mr. Lindsey's Crane forms). It was on this basis that my original post in regards to this matter was made. Of interest to you, I also have video sent to me by one Hank Irwin of the USA showing Mr. Lindsey 'teaching' a form known as "Gohoken". The actual kata as demonstrated by Mr. Lindsey is totally incorrect. The fact of the matter is Mr. Lindsey obtained (from Chuck Chandler) a small section of video of myself doing a "walk-through " of this kata upon my return from learning it (and several others) on Okinawa from Yabiku Sensei. Mr. Lindsey and Mr. Chandler admittingly could not come to grasp's with the kata as taught by Mr. Yabiku and therefore made several glaring and putting it nicely, "Modifications" to the form! (and several others taught by Mr. Yabiku obtained from my own personal video of same).

4/. Mr. Lindsey paid (I have the receipt on file) the sum of USA$900.00 to Mr. Chandler for a supposedly 8th Dan Rank certificate from Mr. Yabiku on Okinawa. The certificate issued and claimed as "rank" by Mr. Lindsey was a forgery and was not in fact issued by Mr. Yabiku on Okinawa. I have a statement by Mr. Yabiku verifying this (documented and on file).

You stated: < "I know very little of the NahaTe derived arts, and know even less about your style/organization". >

5/. I ask then sir, what actual qualifications do you have to make such a judgement? Have you trained on Okinawa under Mr. Yabiku. Have you received training in Chinese Nanquan or Shihequan? The truth is I have actually very little knowledge of the Nahate arts other than my own research and a few friends actively involved in this tradition. Once again your 'assumption' is incorrect. I have, in fact sir, trained under a number of well respected individuals most recently including Shifu Fai (Crane-Fist & Chinese Herbal Remedies).

You have visited my web site! Thank you for supporting my research. You may have taken the time to notice that the official advisers are none other than Mr. Yap Leong (a very accomplished teacher of Chinese Shaolin-Fists, Emperors-Fist and Five Ancestors Crane), Mr. Paul Wollos of the Paihemen Shihequan style, and Mr. Gu-Ping of Guandong Province,China. All of these individuals have a very far-reaching and in-depth knowledge of the Crane-Fist related arts, Their knowledge, qualifications and integrity are unquestionable and beyond any reproach! Have you ever seen or actually trained in any Chinese Crane-Fist to know anything about the stances etc of this art? With all due respect, I am sorry but I cannot see how you sir are qualified to make such sweeping statements.

6/. "Butoryu": Your rather childish response regarding the name as written in English may well be correct as I have little knowledge of the Filipino (Tagalog) language. However the actual Uchinan Hogen and Nihongo ideograms (Kanji) for same have no connection with the term you so wrongly assumed it to. Please send me the Kanji for your interpretation of this term as you obviously have far more knowledge than I on matters pertaining to Nihongo!

7/. If you feel you have nothing to hide (as do I) then simply state your name. It's no big deal to me.

Lastly, please if you decide to reply do so with actual verifiable proof and or facts of that which you say and not on behalf of the political agendas and say so of others. If only we were to listen closely enough to what was actually being said (or written as is the case here) then we would no doubt become much more intelligent. Please do your maths first!

You can even write to me direct. After all as you say, we are all "lights of Shaolin!"

Have a nice day!

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[This message was edited by Ron Goninan on 04-26-01 at 07:08 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ron Goninan on 04-26-01 at 07:11 PM.]

[rogue]

Whoops, I must have stumbled onto the Mantis forum. :D

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

[Self-Thinking Follower]

It happens on every board he posts except his own!
I tried to cut him off, but alas, I failed, as you can see with these last posts.

Now the name dropping and true dance collectors will start their engines :D

[This message was edited by Self-Thinking Follower on 04-27-01 at 12:26 PM.]

[Self-Thinking Follower]

R :D GER and OUT!

[Tsuruken]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your contribution :)

Your intelligent posts have added greatly to the matter being discussed :D

I look forward to your next highly valuable contribution with great anticipation :p

Keep up the great work guys! ;) :p :p

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'd love to see what the okinawans practice. What I have seeen in the states is definitly not the same as the CMA that inspired it.

In fact, I'd argue that the Okinawan training methods are more likely to hurt you than to help you fight.

Just my opinion.

[Tsuruken]

:) MonkeySlap Too,

I have to agree with you 100%. That which is passed off in USA as "Okinawan Crane-Fist" by various highly commercialized "White Crane Masters" (mostly in North Carolina) who sell videos, t-shirts, mouse mats etc, is no where near the real deal seen in the highly selective and might I add, private teachings of certian Okinawan's.

Even in Okinawa, the training methods used by some are without a doubt extremely harmful (not too mention downright stupid!) :rolleyes:

That is not to say that Okinawan Crane-Fist which dutifully acknowledges it's CMA heritage does not exist as it most certianly does. Many just don't know how to find it.

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[omegapoint]

If all you say isn't true (I've neither seen nor heard of any of this false certificate stuff regarding Mr. Sandoval) you may be held accountable for slander or liable. Please be careful of what you say, especially if it's in writing. A good ribbing in the name of jest is one thing, but falsehoods are another. I apologize for my lack of maturity in a few of my responses, but I KNOW what is real Karate and what B.S. is. Regardless of your opinion about Shihan Lindsey, he has proven to me that what he teaches and does is 100% valid. Why is this petty, mercenary crap so rampant in the MA's? If your stuff is valid it'll show through in your techniques and student quality. Again I apologize to you and the other forum members for contributing to this stupidity. I had to react to your first strike though. What the heck is Gohoken anyway? Never heard of it, seen it, or the like. Maybe he's changed since your dealings with him, but as far as money goes $50 for a 5 day seminar is unbeatable in the first world, and $30 a month for unlimited lessons shows just how selfless Sensei Lindsey is. 'Nuff Said!!!

[Tsuruken]

Sir,

Thank you for your views. I respect your right as a person to air your views.

Sir, you personally attacked the name of my association/style (Butoryu) stating that it was a sexually related term of Filipino (Tagalog) language and then you claimed that Chinese Fujian Hequanfa has no low stances. With all due respect, please refrain from making such sweeping and and 100% incorrect statements in the future as it will serve to make you and your views seen in a far better and more positive light.

The point I mentioned about the falsified signature of Mr. Sandoval's was actually written in a magazine article on Mr. Sandoval which appeared in a back issue of "Dojo Magazine" as well as in a personal communication to me by Mr. Sandoval.

My comments regarding this issue are based on verifiable facts not hearsay. By stating same, I mean you no disrespect.

Gohoken is a form from the Kojo Yo****omi to Irimaji Seiji to Yabiku Takaya lineage. It is a form of the Koshinryu Association and was personalyy taught to both myself and Mr. David Sallustio by Yabiku Takaya while on Okinawa. Some time later and at the request of Mr. Chuck Chandler (A request I would later regret) I filmed a basic walk-through of this kata only to discover sometime later that Chandler had passed this footage on to Mr. Lindsey and that between them, several "modificatations" (nicely put) were made to the forms original essence and structure!

Your apology is accepted. It is all too easy to misinterpret the written word. No hard feelings.

I will be in the USA in August 2001 teaching Chinese and Okinawan Crane-Fist. Perhaps we could link-up in the spirit of martial arts friendship?

My e-mail is: tsuruken@hwy.com.au

Please feel free to write to me anytime.

:)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Tsuruken]

Please visit:

www.roundhousemag.com/frmpage.htm (http://www.roundhousemag.com/frmpage.htm)

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[John D]

Ron,

Thanks for your post. I also believe that Fukien White Crane system is at the root of several other southern Chinese systems. There seems to be an upright (Standing) and a compress body structure versions of the FBH system. Both, however, use wiping and springing techniques with coordinated breath....good stuff!

It is also common belief that Wing Chun (my art) is either a distant cousin or a old break off branch of Fukien White Crane (Fujin Bai Haur).

Drop me a e-mail, I would like to chat with you over the phone on this subject. Many interesting stories and comparisons.

Regards,
John Di Virgilio

[Tsuruken]

John,

Hello and welcome! Thanks for sharing your views. I agree. The connection between Wing Chun and Hequanfa is very strong.

I'd love to talk more with you via e-mail or phone but unfortunately, you did not post your phone number or e-mail address.

My E-mail is: tsuruken@hwy.com.au

I'd love to hear from you again.

:) Although I am a simple, unskilled man of little learning, knowledge and talent, I am dedicated to passing on the lessons given me by the Yabiku Sensei (unchanged .... without modifications as made by others), and my advisers (Sifu Yap Leong, Sifu Paul Wollos & Shifu Guping). In doing so, I make no claim to be teaching the "original" Hakutsuru (God forbid!) or Tsuruken. We do, however aim to impart the essence of same.

I teach Tsuruken and Ryukyu Kobudo .... not as anything "mystical", magical or unattainable but as a codified system of study based upon on-going research. No fancy claims, no bulldust.

No thanks! I'll leave that up to the "Crane Master's" which abound, parading around in their feathered coats looking more like Goose's than Crane's!

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[omegapoint]

You have no clue...

[omegapoint]

...of the unknown quantity set before you...

[Tsuruken]

Yes, my main pursuit is Tsuruken (Crane-Fist). No secret in this.

Crane-Fist research is our aim. I am not an 'authority' on anything! I'm no "expert" ("X" being an unknown factor & and a "spurt" being a drip under pressure!). Our aim is to look seriously at the Crane-Fist phenomenon and to research same in an open, honest manner, trying to put it into some form of a serious perspective. Much in the same manner in which Mr. Patrick McCarthy looks at his research of Ryukyu Karate although we are not of his standard of knowledge or research!

We are not trying to create some "new crane style" ..... far from it. What we are aiming to do is to bring as much knowledge of the various Crane Arts (Chinese, Taiwanese, Okinawan) together looking at each for its own merits and essence.

I view this whole "Hakutsuru" thing with some humour. It seems to have gotten out of hand. You can now go to certian groups (mainly in North Carolina) and buy "Hakutsuru Mouse mats" for god's sake! If trying to bring some balance to this subject is wrong, then call me wrong!

Nothing wrong with Okinawan Karate if taught properly. But many treat it like mobile phones and backsides .... everyone's got one or knows someone who does!

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[omegapoint]

What styles did you receive a Shodan rank or higher in? Mr. Lindsey said that he would like to meet you in person so you guys could exchange techs and knowledge. He also wants to know what Masters you've studied under. By the way, for the uninitiated and uncoordinated who lack control and lack any true innate ability, all strenuous tasks can be harmful to your body and mind. ShuriTe has never been considered harmful to the practitioner unless you're a pansy! I still think that your stances have a distinct Goju wideness to them, and can't be effective for real defense/offense.

Do you teach change-body? Did you study or were you promoted to 5th dan or above by anyone as reputable as Fuse Kise or Shigeru Nakamura? I know that Mr. Lindsey was president of both of their organizations, what position did you hold prior to Butoryu being formed.

I think you're a B.S. artist; just another modern snake oil salesman, but that's just my opinion based on what I've heard from others. I don't understand how corresponding with Yabiku Sensei or training under him for a couple of sessions could make you qualified to teach, let alone formulate a White Crane based MA. If you kids are reading this know that wolves come in many guises, and they're constantly trying to trap the meek sheep.

I just can't believe what you're spouting no matter how flowery or concise the language you use. Many want to know but few actually want to take the time to learn. This is the last time I'm gonna reply to this thread. When are you coming to the states and where will you be? I'm in S.A., Tx. and I'd love to see a practical demonstration of your "style". You know my name and you know where I live. I have NOTHING to hide.

Enuff talk, time for some action!!! And I'm no kid I'm over 30 yrs. old and have been around the world and mastered the basics of 4 styles: BJJ, Matsubayashi Ryu, Shorinkan and Matsumura Seito Shorin. I'm at least a Shodan in all of these except GJJ. Plus, I studied overseas (the Philippines) which is a lot more Martial oriented than down-under, and I ain't trying to formulate my own style. Money grubbing is a freakin' shame! :cool:

[Tsuruken]

Sir,

Your recent post has a great deal to say about you as a person which in itself is a real shame as I was hoping we could have shared our views on what should have been a very interesting subject. :(

I actually received Shodan in Shotokan Karate. I also trained in Shorinryu before moving on to research Crane-Fist arts just as your Sensei, Mr. Lindsey has done. I trained with some very nice and respected Matsumura people (Ted Lange is one), also Mr. Yabiku who Mr. Lindsey was seeking to join and train with but never did. I am currently under Sifu Yap Leong, Shifu Guping, Sifu Paul Wollos and Sifu Fai.

I learnt a great deal of Tsuruken (as well as Kobudo) from Yabiku Sensei (I was there on Okinawa, you and Mr. Lindsey respectfully were not!) so I'm not interested or concerned about the political stories spread by others.

Your statement regarding stances (Tachikata)shows your ignorance of Tsuruken. Secondly it smacks of stylistic superiority. Your basically saying your art is effective but Gojuryu (a very effective art) is not! What a narrow-minded and sad view to hold.

Your thinly hidden threat of violence towards me should I visit your country displays a remarkable amount of ego and a considerable lack of true Budo spirit. Again, this is sad.

You attack my country ("down-under". Again this is sad.

I do not now nor have I ever taught for financial gain. So please get your facts straight. I do not sell my art on videos, patches, t-shirts ot anything else I could make money off unlike some others who I'm sure you know.

I remind you that it was your instructor who was linked to that most esteemed of "modern snake oil salesman" Chuck Chandler and it was your instructor promoting and selling videotapes to all and sundry to learn "Hakutsuru". It was your instructor who paid in excess of $900.00 USA for a rank that was not legitimate. I haet to raise these issues but you have turned this discussion into a personalized attack rather that a discussion regarding Crane-Fist and its links to Okinawan Karate.

For the record Sir, I do not know you or where you live nor do I wish to based upon your display of character here. Should I visit your country, you shall not be welcome as you are to "over the top" to truly learn.

Have a long and happy life and know that there is hope for those who live modest life.

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[omegapoint]

To see the real truth about your "Sensei" got to www.e-budo.com (http://www.e-budo.com), and check out the Ryukyuan MAs section. Under "Hohan Soken For Sale" you can get the truth about the legitimacy of what your spouting. Just like most people in the world your ignorant to reality and have convinced yourself that your deception is integrity. That's why you attacked me first; because the guilt had to show through! Fizuck Chandler or whomever you keep talking about. What I'm learning from Mr. Lindsey is more legitimate than any MAs I've ever practiced. It's just too bad your megalomania won't allow you to see the truth. Maybe he would've taught you, too. Now you're destined to search for a lifetime without ever resolving your personal quandries! Good luck with your mastery of the esoteric nature of assumption.. You're a joke!!!LOL :mad:

Very Sincerely,
The Final Word

[Tsuruken]

I feel for you. What a terribly sad and negative person you must be to have to attck others without the fortitude to sign your own name. Yet another "Web Warrior!" Truly sad.

With all due respect Sir, how do you expect others to take you and your words seriously if you are not willing to put your real name to them?

Yes, I have read the "E-Budo" thread and to be honest, I agree with much of what has been written! Far to many, try to live of the name of Soken Hohan!

I do however, find it amusing that you should attempt to raise this in your defence as some sort of means to validate yourself and your point of view! Especially when your own Sensei is as guilty of this as the others! You forget, I have read his letters to my former Sensei while I was on Okinawa and thus have witnessed (by his own hand) the attempts your Sensei made to coerce and manipulate to get things his way! I have copies of the receipts regarding the amount of money he paid for a so-called "8th Dan" rank via Chuck Chandler!!! I have dcouments concerning other "wheelings & dealings" which do not serve to paint the best of portraits of the person you so dutifully (admirable quality) defend. You may be surprised to know that your Sensei is not as well regarded within the martial arts as you may wish to believe he is!!!

Omegapoint, you don't get it! I am done with the "big picture" and big plans, organizations and Sensei's! I live for the small, private moments of personal success that can only be enjoyed in one's own privacy.

If what you say against me is right then it does not matter to me. If what you say is wrong, it still does not matter to me. I have found my way and I am happy :)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[This message was edited by Ron Goninan on 06-08-01 at 07:04 PM.]

[Self-Thinking Follower]

[/b]"Yes, I have read the "E-Budo" thread and to be honest, I agree with much of what has been written! Far to many, try to live of the name of Soken Hohan!"

This includes YOUR teacher, and its his suspected actions which were refered to by Omega point!

[This message was edited by Self-Thinking Follower on 06-08-01 at 07:55 PM.]

[This message was edited by Self-Thinking Follower on 06-08-01 at 08:01 PM.]

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Here is the point from E-Budo,

Location:
Posts: 127


If you're an Okinawa Karate practitioner and curious about politics, you've probably read the links wherein Patrick Mc Carthy describes Yabiku Takaya, who was once Soken's personal secretary (according to John Sells in Unante: the Secrets of Karate having offered him a rank cert. with Hohan Soken's seal and signed with his name. Mc Carthy spars no shock in describing the baffling incident.

Now correct me Ron, isnt this character TAKAYA the one who gave you your title and endorsement?

[This message was edited by Self-Thinking Follower on 06-08-01 at 08:00 PM.]

[Tsuruken]

Self-Thinking Follower,

What an interesting name that is to use! A follower who thinks for himself ... think about it! Here we have yet another "Web Warrior" without the intestinal fortitude (guts) to use his real name yet wanting his views and posts to be taken as gospel!

Hey man, try using your real name .... at least then I may take you as being something other than a troll!

To answer (something I notice you guys never do when questioned!!! ... something to hide perhaps!), yes far too many live off the name of Soken Hohan. Agreed 100% No argument!

Yes Yabiku Takaya was (read was) one of my instructors and yes he did award me a Menkyo after I spent some gruelling times grading personally before him and no, I did not pay for the Menkyo! The Menkyo in question had no connection to Soken Hohan, his signature nor Hanko.

Patrick McCarthy states that Mr. Yabiku offered him a certificate with Soken's signature and seal on it. If Patrick says so then I have no reason to doubt him as I have a great deal of respect for patrick and his work. But this is a certificate of Soken's not Yabiku's so it has no bearing on me. Furthermore I was not there at the time to witness the event or the context in which it took place.

i know what I learnt as having value. John Sell's speaks very well of Mr. Yabiku, his kata, his lineage etc. Someone else does not. Each person is entitled to hold their own opinions. So what does that have to do with me? Nothing!

Now having answered your questions in full and not avoiding the issue, I ask you to tell me your real name, style, ranks and affiliations. i won't hold my breath waiting for this miracle!!!

Have a nice day and keep on following while thinking!!! :)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

My real name is Elmer Fudd, I am a member of The Looney Tunes school of Karate decended from Fukien spillage, Previously known as Animaniacs Te of America but for political reasons we went back to the traditional name. My rank is one degree higher than yours, so I can atract more animaniacs and although I know about Daffy Duck Boxing, I would like to steal, HMM, I mean learn from back door discussion forums more information and explanations for the poo poo I still dont understand after thirty (30) years or more in this field. I am too stupid and lazy, not to mention cheap, to go to the source (Fukien) so I correspond with anyone dangling a carrot of tidbits that will be usefull evidence of my knowledge to impress visitors on my site.
I am too stupid to go anonymous on a board with quacking trolls, even though trolls have rights too. I insult the same people that support me, because the truth must come out, and that truth is that I know NOTHING of the crane crap I try to come off knowledgable about. My cup runneth over!

Hope this is not above your FAT head Ron, decipher this like you try to do with the Okinawan BUBULL****!

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Thinking Followers- advance the art

Blind Followers- The kind you prefer, flaunt their stupid titles, and never advanced. So they create their own organization, answering to no one and sneak around collecting usefull tidbits to appear knowledgable.

:eek:

[Tsuruken]

Dear Elmer,

I knew that you lacked the courage and human dignity to answer a straight forward question. I shall waste no more time with one such as you. You are beneath my concern. Have a nice life knowing that you lack personal integrity and courage. :D

;)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

You NEVER answered MINE!, now you expect answers?

It can be courage or stupidity to give one's real name on a public forum.

Integrity, did you buy that on Okinawa?

One more, one less the cosmos continue regardless!
and so will my involvement on these forums.

I have thus far truly lived a rewarding life, and in the end I will not regret having missed any discussion with you.

[Tsuruken]

If your last post is an example of what you truly feel and think, then why bother to reply??? :confused:

Goodbye and have a great life! :p

:D

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

You said;

"I knew that you lacked the courage and human dignity to answer a straight forward question. I shall waste no more time with one such as you. You are beneath my concern. Have a nice life knowing that you lack personal integrity and courage."

AND YOU SAID:

!Far away, in a well lit place high on the mountain, we watch the curious actions of these grotty little creatures as they scurry about avoiding the penetrating light of the truth. Amused by their antics, we watch. Every now and then, we are amused by their strange gutteral utterings. We tolerate them (just barely) because we know that they know no better. This is their life. Sad and as bleak as it is. More than often, we feel pity towards them for they know not how truly pathetic they truly are.

Yet you continue to waste time responding to me, and YOU STILL HAVE"NT ANSWERED MY INITIAL QUESTION?

You also CAME DOWN into the valley were we creatures scurry on this forum and left that mountain top your EGO believes its on!

AND YOU CANT ANSWER MY QUESTION, BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE!

GO BE OFF, THERE ARE OTHER BOTTOMS AWAITING YOU and maybe you wont have to lower yourself to the valley to kiss them! :D :D :D

[Tsuruken]

Follower,

How predictable you are! I knew you would take the bait!

Beware my friend, the toes you tread on today may belong the feet that are attached to the legs that hold up the bottom that you may have to kiss tomorrow!

I'm sorry but I don't see why it is I have to answer anything you have to ask. You are of no relation to me in any way. And until you have the honesty to use your own name, I shall continue treat you as you deserve.

I'm sorry but the truth is you would be out of depth in a carpark puddle!

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

And you call me a Web warrior?

http://www.bushido-online.com/img/butoryu/gr_buto008.gif

[Tsuruken]

Follower,

If Moses had known you, there would have been another Commandment! :p

I'd put a curse on you, but somebody's beaten me to it! :D

Live every day as if it was your last, one day you'll be right! ;)

Only an average person like you is always at his best! :)

People will believe anything if you post it on an Internet board! :)

People who matter, don't mind. People who mind, don't matter! :)

A shallow thinker never leaves a deep impression! :)

Follower, the human body is a strange thing. A pat on the back can often result in a swollen head. A pat on the back is only a few centimetres from a kick in the bum! :)

A thought struck you once and you've been unconscious ever since! :D

(Are we having fun yet! :) )

May you become the person you think yourself to be! :p

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Your one liners are better than your knowledge of Fukien white crane. Maybe you should study at the Comedy Club, they give out ranks too!

[Tsuruken]

Jibun-de Kangaedasu Shijisha (Kuchi-Bushi),

Uchinaa-guchi wakai miseemi? :confused:

Kuchi ganga naa ya yakutatan. Choo kani ru deeichi. Yuu ya ****itin mii ya ****inna.

Njichabira :)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Tsuruken]

Benxing Sixiang Gensui (Zui-Zanshi),

Dongde??? :confused:

:cool:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Tsuruken]

Jibun-de Kangaedasu Shijisha (Kuchi-Bushi),

Benxing Sixiang Gensui (Zui-Zanshi),

Watakushi wa anata wo ****te imasu! Anata-no Kokkei-na! (Kexiaode) :D

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Self-Thinking Follower]

POK GAI SIFAT GWAI

POK GAI SIFAT GWAI

POK GAI SIFAT GWAI

[Tsuruken]

Follower Jibun-de Kangaedasu Shijisha (Kuchi-Bushi), Benxing Sixiang Gensui (Zui-Zanshi),


Mo ichido itte kudasai? "POK GAI SIFAT GWAI" BACK AT YOU! :D

Warui yatsu hodo te ga shiroi.

Kimi to wa zekko da! :eek:

:) :p :cool: :D ;)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[Fish of Fury]

i have no idea what any of that meant...but

self-thinking-follower, i have a question.
what is your problem with Ron.seems to me he's been polite and straight forward.
he's stated he want's info on white crane, why is that a problem.how many true secrets of kung fu is he likely to "steal" on a web forum anyway?

just seems a little disproportionate is all. feel free to correct me :)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I never drive faster than i can see...other than that...it's all in the reflexes" Jack Burton

[omegapoint]

Mr. Follower,
Thank you for helping me to expose this charlatan. It seems as if others may have trouble seeing through his illusionary tactics, but as is evidenced from your name, you subscribe to the unique philosophy called reality. Goninan seems to think that revealing one's true identity on the net is the prudent thing to do. I'll tell you what Ronnie, I'll do as you ask and tell you my real name. My name is Ryon Seer. I'm a yudansha in 3 schools of Shorin Ryu-( Kobayashi (Shorinkan), Matsubayashi and Matsumura Orthodox). I'm a black sash in Chinese-Filipino Kuntaw. I'm a 3 stripe blue belt in Brazilian JJ (under Professor Caique) and an accomplished Kobujutsu stylist.

I have lived in a country where MAs is taken seriously, where liability is of little concern, and one's skills were put to the test regularly. I know what is BS and what is legitimate. Regardless of your opinions about Shihan Lindsey (and this is his REAL title given by Hohan Soken's right hand man, Fusei Kise), and your claims that he was formerly unscrupulous, I'm telling you from first hand experience that if he WAS like that he has totally changed. I drive over 2 hrs. to train with him as there are 0 legitimate Dojos in the city where I live (and it's the 8th lgst. Metro area in the U.S.A.)! So obviously I would not waste my time if I knew he wasn't legit..

I'm a 3rd year Medical Student who knows what is physiologically valid, and biomechanically sound. I was in the USAF for 8 yrs. as a Pararescue Jumpman. If you don't know what that is just know that it's SpecOps. So don't attack me unnecessarily with some invalid opinion about your irrelevant research into the Martial experience. I've lived it my entire life, and have been researching Bujutsu since I was 12 yrs. old! I'm now over 30 with 20 plus years in the Martial Arts, and even I'm not trying to formulate or reformulate To-Te.

You can fool some of these suckers (it happens everyday in the land of smoke and mirrors), but obviously you showed your true intentions by attacking me without provocation. So whatcha' got to say now. Just stop with the punk isht... 'Cause all u are is weak, weak, whack!!!

Ryon

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Thank you, Omegapoint!

For those who dont understand the unwelcomed posts I direct at him, just go do a little searching on other forum sites and see if you
can see a trend. In addition I have been able to read some of his inquiring/name dropping e-mails to people in his field (Karate) and although I wont get them involved in my own pettiness here, I will tell you that I dislike his backdoor learning attempts.

Since he has supporters on this board, perhaps they can give him the information he NEEDS! or at least have discussion with him. As for myself, i will cease to follow him as he claims! and move on to other threads.

[omegapoint]

Sempai-wannabe Goninan, how the hell did you jump from 1st degree bb to 6th-7th degree red and white belt? On top of that you claim white crane knowledge but are a practitioner of sport-oriented
Japanese Shotokan. And as for having ever been to Okinawa, I've not only trained at the Nakazato (Shorinkan) Dojo, but also visited Shuri castle. As you already know Sensei Lindsey was stationed in Okinawa in the late 60s- early 70's, and studied with Kise, Kuda and Soken. 'Nuff said, just keep your troll-assed trap shut!!!

[Tsuruken]

Fish of Fury: Thank you kindly for your support or at least your words. I do not know either "Self-Thinking Follower" or "Omegapoint" personally (perhaps I would not want to know them based on their negative posts here) as we have never met so it's kind of hard and perhaps even wrong of me to cast and judgement in their direction. They have a problem with me but in reality, it's their problem, not mine. Thanks again for your input! :)

Omegapoint: Ryon Seer. Thank you for having the honesty and integrity to use your real name. On this, you have my respect. Again I state that I never meant you nor Mr. Lindsey any disrespect. That was until you started your rather negative and personal attacks on my good self. Regarding your Sensei, I was simply stating the facts. If he has changed then I commend him 100 percent on taking such a strong and brave personal step forward! On this subject enough said. Ryon, no need to start the childish name-calling again. The use of terms such as "Sempai-wannabe Goninan" and "troll-assed" do nothing for your dignity nor that of the Sensei you so proudly represent. Name-calling is the lowest form of communication, so please rise above such things. To answer your questions. I did not "jump from 1st degree bb to 6th-7th degree red and white belt". Seeing as you had the honesty to tell me something of your background (something which I respect) I reply in kind fully and with total honesty (for whatever it may be worth). I supply you the following:-

* 1980: December 11th: Graded Shodan: G. Burton Sensei.

* 1982: August 15th: Graded Nidan: G. Burton Sensei.

* 1983: September 9th: Awarded “Standard of Competence”: Malcolm Sue Sifu, Malcolm Sue Kung Fu School.

* 1986: July 6th: Graded Sandan/Sensei: Australian Martial Arts Association.

* 1988: April: Internal Arts Accreditation: Master Erle Montaigue: World Taiji Boxing Association.

* 1988: April 23rd: Graded Yondan/Shihan-Dai: Te Wamoana Terupe Shihan 8th Dan. Sanctioned by Takayuki Kubota Soke: Kokusai Karatedo Kyokai Gosoku-Ryu Butokukan (No. #341).

* 1988: June 4th: Awarded 4th Degree Teaching Credential: Combined Fighting Arts/Chow Wing Kune Do (Five Animals Gongfu).

* 1992: May 1st: Graded Godan/Shihan (Shorin-Ryu Karatedo/Kobudo): Zen Kokusai Ryukyu Budo Bujutsu Renmei. Approved by Shian Toma Soke 10th Dan: All Okinawa Seidokan Motobu-Ryu Martial Arts Renmei – Okinawa, Japan (No. #0592).

* 1993: January 1st: Graded Rokudan/Shihan (Shorin-Ryu Karatedo/Kobudo): Zen Kokusai Ryukyu Budo Bujutsu Renmei. Approved by Shian Toma Soke 10th Dan: All Okinawa Seidokan Motobu-Ryu Martial Arts Renmei – Okinawa, Japan. All Japan Dai-Seibukan Budo Bugei Martial Arts Union – Kitahara Suzuki Sensei – Japan.

* 1994: March 31st: Graded Rokudan: Shorin-Ryu Karate Federation.

* 1994: November 8th: Appointed Australian Director: Yabiku Takaya Sensei: Okinawa Matsusokan
Karatedo Kyokai – Okinawa, Japan.

* 1996: March: Graded Nanadan/Kyoshi: Yabiku Takaya Sensei: Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Matsusokan Karatedo Kyokai – Okinawa, Japan (No.#3).

* 1998: February: Appointed “Ichiban Jiki-Deshi” (Number One Personal Disciple) & designated successor by Yabiku Takaya Sensei – Okinawa, Japan. (This was further reaffirmed in a letter dated February 19th, 1999)

*1998: May 5th: Succeeded Yabiku Takaya Sensei as the Headmaster of the Kokusai Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan Karatedo Kyokai / Sekai Butoryu Renmei receiving Kyoshi Hachidan Menkyo Kaiden. Translation:- "Kyoshi Hachidan ~ Ron Goninan ~ Menkyo Kaiden. The Butoryu Gohokan Karatedo Kyokai provides this certificate for Mr Ron Goninan - Hachidan Kyoshi Menkyo Kaiden. 5th May, 1988. Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan Karatedo Kyokai Honbu. Sekai Butoryu Karatedo Renmai Iinkai."

* 1998: October 1st: Graded Hachidan/Hanshi: Tony Sandoval Kaicho 9th Dan: Okinawa White Crane Kenkyukai. Appointed Australian Director.

* 1999: June: Joined Martial Arts Industry Association (MAIA) as Category 3 Member: martial Arts Academy/Association Membership Number: 414.

* 1999: June: Appointed Central Western NSW Representative and Coaching Coordinator for the Martial Arts Industry Association.

*1999: February 5th: Awarded Hachidan/Kyoshi Menkyo (8th Dan) within the Okinawa Koshin-Ryu Kohokan Karatedo Kyokai (Koshiro/Kojo Family White Crane-Fist) by Yabiku Takaya Sensei – Okinawa/Japan, Kaicho: Okinawa Konan-Ryu Kohokan Kyokai

* 2000: May 1st: Awarded Hachidan Menkyo (8th Dan Master) by the International Kojosho Karate Federation (Kosaburo Matsuda Lineage).

* July: 7th 2000: Appointed Australasian Representative for the International Nibuikai Budo Renmei.

In addition, I add the following testimonials On file in written documented form):-


* Yabiku Takaya Sensei of the Koshin-Ryu Kohokan, Okinawa said: “You (Goninan Kyoshi) are a great Sensei It is not necessary to mention about orthodox in Karate. Everybody studies it with their own ideas and dreams. What you have studied is orthodox (pure, correct, true)”.

* The highly regarded Shaolin-Fists/Five Ancestors Fist Master, Sifu Yap Leong wrote: “I am much honoured and accept the privilege to be made Senior Technical Master/Adviser to you and your association. If I can be of help I will gladly do so”.

* Master Erle Montaigue of the World Taiji Boxing Association had this to say: “I have known Ron Goninan for sometime and he is a serious martial artist who wishes to help his students to gain whatever it is that they are looking for from their Karate training”.

* Matt Henderson, South Eastern Regional Director Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karatedo Seibukai said: "After much consideration and exploration, I feel you have progressed ****her in the study of White Crane, and can take me higher in knowledge of the style than anyone outside of Okinawa or China."

Kevin Brennan, Editor of Australasian Fighting Arts Magazine said: “Your one of the few gentlemen of the martial arts”.

Kempo-Ryu International Karate Organization Chairman Peter Mylonas Shihan writes: “I have had the pleasure of personally knowing Mr. Goninan over the last year and have found him to be a talented, educated and respected martial artist. His reputation within our industry is one of high standard, with our peers constantly praising his efforts and good reputable message to the community about the true values of the martial arts”.

Kevin Blundell of the Kumiai-Ryu Martial Arts System had this to say: “Ron’s study of the Martial Arts is to be admired for both its intensity and dedication. The integrity of Mr. Ron Goninan is beyond reproach and any dealings he has with people are conducted with honesty and enthusiasm”.

David Walker, B.Th.;Dip.Min.;Cs.Dip and the Principal of the Cornerstone Christian College said: “In the martial arts arena, Ron’s commitment to research and an honest and down to earth approach has made him one of the most knowledgeable and sought after instructors in the country”.

Paul Gurney – Dip Teach MIAME and Martial Arts Instructor say’s: “Ron has demonstrated a never tiring dedication, development and understanding of the Martial Arts. He has an incredible depth of knowledge. I feel what really makes Ron stand out from others is that he sees himself as a person and not as a martial artist”.

Martial Arts Instructor, Andrew Files says: “I believe Ron Goninan to be one of the most ethical, practical, capable, diverse, experienced and modest martial arts practitioners in this country. Ron Goninan is truly a great Martial Arts practitioner through his achievements, his honesty, his commitment to an age old art and his ability in all facets of this art and for his role in helping to make good people better”.

Karatedo 5th Dan, Graeme Bingham said: “Ron is one of the most devoted, experienced and knowledgeable practitioners of the martial arts that I have come across.”

Australian Black Belt Instructor, Tony Pryor said: “Ron has always conducted himself with honesty and integrity, and I am proud to have him as a friend and teacher”.

Kokoro-Ryu Bujutsu-Kan Instructor and 6th Dan Black Belt, Wayne Hanley said this about Goninan Shinshii: “As a colleague in the Martial Arts I feel that his technical skill and knowledge is of the highest standard, his willingness and ability to pass on this knowledge, and his dedication to his art would be a credit to any instructor”

Walt Missingham, Chairman of the Martial Arts Industry Association said: “Mr. Ron Goninan is an associate member in good standing with the MAIA and is an accredited martial arts instructor with the MAIA, his accreditation number is 1009”.

Shurijo Castle is great! Did you also visit Nakagusuku Castle? Or Sikina-En Udun?

I hope that you and I can perhaps start over and perhaps communicate on a more friendly level. Of course, this is up to you to decide!

Self-Thinking Follower: Your a different ball game all together! As stated, I truly feel sorry for you as you seem (by your posts) to be such a negative person. Your writings are as clumsy as a duck in a ploughed field. Your involvement on this board seems as out of place like a one-legged man at an ass kicker's convention. It seems the only training you get is in running other people down. I only drink to make people like you seem interesting! I used to think that you were a pain in the neck. Now I have a much lower opinion of you! (Smile man, they are all jokes!)

It seems that you have entered this discussion with an empty mind, learnt nothing and your forgotten even that!

If you don't like this thread or forum, why don't you just go somewhere else and play with your mental blocks!

Your like a Moonprobe, always looking on the dark side!

What I like about you is that you approach each subject with an open mouth!

You might not have much to say, but at least you don't try to say anything else!

So what exactly is on your mind? or is that overstating things?

Could you please follow the example of your own head and come to the point! Your ignorance is crowding out what's left of your argument!

Do me a favour and keep an eye on the pigeons mate, your too much of a target!

As for your posts thus far: Wisdom from the brain dead! :p (All in fun!, relax, have a laugh and live a little, don't take everything so seriously or you'll burst something!) ;)

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

[This message was edited by Ron Goninan on 06-11-01 at 10:06 PM.]

[Stumblefist]

My white crane is extremely relaxed, fast and fluid. Also angular, deflective, with springing from low to high,simultaneous block and attack, foundations similar to a twisting wing chun as well as a source for jeet kune do. Because of the angling and interjecting, intercepting, it's easy to use to catch arms, legs and body and throw. Wide range of compatibilities, can be practised along side of hard hung gar, or choi lay fut or tiger-crane, or aikido or chen tai. Extremely aggressive and useful for fighting
Also, it seems very rare.
Image my suprise (some time ago) to discover the Karate connection and that ancient white crane was far more comprehensive than what i know.
But it makes sense, long ago i was convinced that that foundation had much more usage than what i know.
The lineage is cut. The HK connection people have died. Researching in China is extremely difficult, only ghosts remain there.
So far as i can determine my white crane is /or is derived from ancestor crane.
So if you guys are researching white crane, what is there to look at in terms of modern practice, what schools or techers in China? I'm not too interested in the stiff hard styles but any info is appreciated.

[WenJin]

Teach it only to those with a good solid foundation(as judged by the white crane master) in other chinese martial arts or spend 3-5 years on san zhan.
The tendernes, the simultaneous, the rooted stance to the floating footwork, light and heavy soft and hard the sudden the calm and the power is too complex without proper foundation.
My teachers were/are Zhang Wei Zhen in Fujian and Wang Mu Shui in Taiwan. I mentioned them before but I guess no one was researching rather they were wasting words on the foolish.

[Stumblefist]

Wenjin,
Tell me more about your style,lineage and teachers and "san zhan".
Crane has had several separate branches, far as i know the original southern crane was quite evolve both external and internal, hard and soft and is LOST.
Any internet resources on this?
I decide everything when i teach. I teach crane first if somebody wants to fight.
Are you still in Fujian? i am not too far away., Please email me tel and e-mail address.

[sui-fuw]

why educate us on the southern,ron?

you've been plucked pettle by pettle,look to your roots boy.

[Tsuruken]

Stumblefist: Thanks for your positive contribution to this discussion. :)

Yous description of your Crane-Fist sounds very close to my own. As to Ancestral Crane, please contact me privately via my e-mail at:

tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

I'll put you in touch with some serious and dedicated researchers and people who may be able to help you!

WenJin: My sincere apologies to you (and others) for lowering myself and this discussion. Wasting my time with those who have nothing of value to offer on a positive level was my mistake. I shall ignore such foolish actions from now on. Thank you for the valuable lesson.

Please tell me more about your art and your teachers, Zhang Wei Zhen and Wang Mu Shui. I am very interested in hearing more about them, their teachings and views! Pleas send me your private e-mail address as this may prove to be a more positive way of discussing the issue.

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

E-mail: tsuruken@austarnet.com.au
Web Site: http://butoryu.freewebsites.com/