Grappling

[muaythaiboxer]

I wanted everyones oppinion on what type of grappling they like. I have been in Muay Thai for about 6 years, and I wanted to know what style of grappling would make a good compliment to my muay thai training. Ive heard that brazillian jiu jitsu, judo and wrestling are all good choices, but i wanted some other oppinions too.:)

[Dark Knight]

Try Sambo, I like the fluid changes, also check out Catch Wrestling. If you can get tony C's tapes.

For a good way to look at grappling get Scott Sonnons Arthokinetics. Ill Post a review from about it.

"Scott Sonnon is pioneering a unique approach to martial arts, disseminated through teaching, seminars, print and Net media, and most importantly for this review, a continuing series of tape sets, that reveal the underlying principles behind both the aggressive and defensive aspects of takedowns, behind taking impact, and now joint submissions of the arms and legs, and the requisite opponent control. This concept may initially be difficult to grasp for many martial artists, while others may instantly understand its significance. Perhaps the fight sport athletes most familiar with the process are Judoka. The Japanese game was played for generations in an exquisitely organised and uniform fashion, most notably by the Japanese. The Russians took to the play, and perhaps not coincidentally to the subject matter at hand (Sonnon’s background is in ROSS, and acronym for Russian Native Martial Art as exemplified by Gen. Alexander Reutuinskih) employed an entirely different approach.

The Russians basically determined that there was the floor, and there was the opponent’s back, and so, what was the best way to get those two together? This approach met with storied success. So too will Sonnon’s ROSS approach, and in any martial arts system.

The idea that there is more to fighting than the technical aspect is perhaps mostly starkly identified by Karl Gotch’s maxim - The Greatest Hold is Conditioning. And this from a man who knew thousands of holds. Everyone understands that conditioning is a key to success in sport fighting, or physical altercations of any sort. Scott identifies other, equally fundamental ways of improving your game.

Specifically, Scott details the physical nature of the human body and human movement, and their relationship to hyperfunction, immobilisation, submission, and disfunction. Those four terms may make your eyebrows scrunch in mild puzzlement. Hyperfunction is making the opponent move as you wish. Immobilisation is making him move not at all. Submission is, guess what, making him quit. And disfunction is breaking him.

The series utilises a number of terms that are unfamiliar to the lay viewer. This is out of necessity, as the subject matter is new to combat sports. The alternative would be Scott saying “The thing that is attached to that thing there you can twist to affect, because of the thing.” This he would have to say many times.
So be forewarned, to learn, you are going to develop familiarity with some new terms. It is worth it.

Arthrokinetics is an approach that seamlessly, effortlessly ties together as seemingly separate requirements as immobilising a mental patient in an institution, handcuffing a perpetrator on the street, and tapping out your opponent in the ring.

Previously, the approach to each of the three would be a careful recitation of specific techniques, perhaps hundreds, that have been learned through trial and error and tradition. Cuffing, patient control, and submission would of course require learning three largely different sets of moves.

But in fact, the requirements in all three situations are nearly identical, each requiring the control of a resistant human. And we are all human, two arms, two legs, two elbows that bend and don’t the same way, and so on.

As touched on previously, this is not easy, indeed, it is hard. It is not a tape of Juji gatame, where you can take a look at the TV, spin a hundred times on your best friend’s offered arm, and presto, you have a submission.
“Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime” is an ancient cliché, but it is true, and on reflection instructive here. It is not simple to fish. You have to learn to mend nets, array them in the most fruitful spots, develop the strength to pull in the catch, or, depending upon your inclination, at least discover the best guide in the port and a fair rental. But then you have a skill upon which civilisations are built.
So if you want to get inside your discipline, instead of seeing it perhaps forever from outside, then the first thing you should do is get Arthrokinetics, available at AmerRoss.com.

[Dark Knight]

And the tapes have on them:

Video Chapter 1: Biomechanical Subject Control: Combat software - How to
program your strategies. Learn: Control Flow over Positional Dominance;
superiority of Sinew Separation over Joint Locks; how to create your own
context-sensitive techniques; the Four Physiological Tactics of Joint
Manipulation

Video Chapter 2: Somatic Engineering of Combat -- How to hardwire strategy
to produce tactics; gain the ability to disintegrate your opponent's
breathing, alignment and movement against his will use his energy to defeat
him.

Video Chapters 3, 4, 5: Lower Limb Architecture - Learn the art and science
of the internal architecture of the hip, knee and ankle, and how to create
an infinite number of joint manipulation techniques to the leg.

Video Chapters 6 & 7: Upper Limb Architecture - Learn the art and science of
the internal architecture of the shoulder, elbow, wrist, and how to create
an infinite number of joint manipulation techniques to the arm.

[Merryprankster]

Go with wrestling or (Gulp) Catch. Learn to use the guard though.

I say this because your stand-up grappling with MT is mediocre at best. Wrestling experience will improve your clinch skills drastically. It will provide the takedown and control positions. Catch will teach you the subs. Neither make extensive use of the guard. So you should at least learn the basics of that, and also, how to get up safely.

Just my opinion.

And this from a BJJer... SOB! But I wrestled first...

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that I haven't seen a "complete," grappling style yet. BJJ schools tend to be weak on takedowns, Sambo guys sometimes don't defend chokes too well, and aren't sure how to get by somebody's legs, Judoka are often weak on the ground, wrestlers frequently don't know subs, and Catch wrestlers seem a bit stymied by use/opposing the guard as well.

This is all in keeping with each arts philosophy mind you, and I'm not knocking them. And you will find many who don't fit the description--I'm painting with REALLY broad brushstrokes here, and it varies from school to school and person to person.

[Dark Knight]

MP, Do you own Tony's tapes?

[Merryprankster]

No, I don't. I don't own any tapes, actually. I'm not really a tape guy.

In fact, I don't own any tapes of the stuff I do :)

I hope this doesn't degenerate :( I don't want to get my guard up right away, it's just been so common... :)

Very broad brush strokes.....

[Shooter]

muaythaiboxer, I've never seen any of Scott's materials, but I know a lot about his coaching pedagogy, and I'd highly recommend any materials he has which are pertinent to your goals.

Like very few other training enhancement systems, ROSS doesn't help you improve; it helps you evolve by making you your own teacher. I say very few others, because there is nothing currently being offered through video quite on the same level as what Scott is showing.

There are a few schools with similar pedagogy, but they're rare.

[Dedication]

If you are in high school (or college if your crazy) join wrestling. Those guys will put you in fanatical shape and give you the greatest basic training you need for groundwork.

[Water Dragon]

Shuai Chiao

[Merryprankster]

Sorry WD--I should have mentioned that :)

[Water Dragon]

MP, when you gonna join my Shuai Chiao board? I think you'd love the nature of the conversation.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Dedication
If you are in high school (or college if your crazy) join wrestling. Those guys will put you in fanatical shape and give you the greatest basic training you need for groundwork.

good call.

[ReverendTim]

This is admittedly a poorly-informed post, but I just bought a tape of muay thai guys fighting san shou guys on eBay (I bought the tape on ebay, they weren't fighting there), and even though the muay thai fighters win most of the fights, the san shou guys do spend a lot of time dumping them on the ground pretty effortlessly.

I know that 6 fights on a video tape is NOT at all enough to make any sort of informed observation, but it looks to me like you'd want to supplement your muay thai with some sort of grappling system that devotes some time to standing grappling and the like and not just ground work.

Wow...poorly informed AND vague! What a post. Must...drink...coffee...

--
Rev. Tim

[Dark Knight]

Rev, you need to expand your knowledge base.

[ReverendTim]

Agreed. That's *why* I bought the tape, so I could watch these two styles and learn about them.

So was I just seeing bad muay thai? Was it a fluke that every single one of them got dumped on his back over and over? I'm not trying to be snotty...I'm curious. The one thing every fight had in common was that the san shou guys were able to take them down easily and repeatedly. Why do you suppose that is? Like I said, despite that fact, the muay thai fighters won 3/4 of the matches.

Seriously...I'm not trying to start anything here. You seem to have more knowledge than me, so please share.

--
Rev. Tim

[Dark Knight]

I thought you meant something different, thats the problem with posting on boards.

I thought you were saying san shou was the way to go and everyone else was uninformed.

Enjoy the tapes

[Lightning Vortex Seiryu go]

Go ahead and make my day,.. I doubble dare ya, you freaks, if any grapler tryed to touch my nads I'd have to crush their adams apple with a life devistating palms up tkd chop to the neck or I would have break their necks or somthing like that. Friggin wierdo's

grappling in a real fight

ha ha ha ha haa ahhh ahahaha ahahha a ah haha ha haa.


monkey riders,... whats that on your chin ,...
my nuts...:) :D :cool: